Preserved Topic: Pirated Software

I was talking to a few of my old high school teachers when we came on the subject of pirated software. Now the three men were all computer science teachers and what shocked me was they all seemed to not only support using pirated software but also went to lengths to justified it. The core of their argument was that since no physical thing was stolen and no one lost money since they didn't intent to purchase it anyway, it wasn't stealing.

I found that logic rather loopy but to each their own.

What are your opinions?

-Jestah
Cell 277

ill be perfectly honest with you all, as a 14 year old, hardly any money, I sure as hell couldn't buy photoshop, I downloaded it, but I don't endorse it, i also downloaded flash and image ready as well , but its not illegal to download, infact that shouldn't be wrong, its posting it and cracking it so people can download it from you is wrong...

now pirated music i think we shouldnt have a problem with, they make the music we listen to it, we listen to it on the radio and we don't have to pay, why the fuck should pay for it online, they aren't losing any money when the cd has "ART" in it...

I find that logic to be extremely frightening. Then they do not believe in intellectual property rights? And they are teachers?

Ideas are not physical entities, but they are still protected by law. And software is more than just an idea... although you may not be able to touch it, it still exists. What about all the money floating around in cyberspace (I'm thinking of bank transfers, etc. )? Is that not real money?

These people are obviously not in touch with reality and with the ever-changing definition of "existence."

I won't condone piracy, but it is a complex issues. Years
ago I remember reading a business case about early
software such as Wordstar and even Lotus 1-2-3. There
were very compelling arguments put forward that without
piracy these softwares would never have attained the success
they did...or not nearly. why. reach, ubiquity, critical mass, user base
etc....free software does very well.

And let's face it a 14 year old is not going to sell his cd collection
to buy 3d studio max and photoshop. are the companies losing money?
only if the little bastards (just kidding) use it for commercial purposes
and even then who knows....the good thing for the publisher, hopefully, is
that the little pirate will one day introduce the software in a large corp
and actually pay for it.

I'm 14 also, and have virtually no money (I'm still paying off my $400 guitar to my Dad) and have no intention of buying Photoshop, ImageReady and the other pirated programs that I have on my hard drive. I have this justifies in my mind because I have every intention of going to colledge, taking advances classes in the programs and getting a job doing freelance work or commercial work with the programs that I own/going into a commercial buisness where I will have bought the programs that I own. Overall, I would like to have the experience using them before I turn 16 and have a steady income and appreciate the cracked appz out there on iMesh etc. I would NEVER use those for and type of job except for schoolwork or a class or my own personal use...

...is this justified enough?
...I think that it is?
...Then again, I think that being about
the same age as InSiDeR, I would
have similar feeling towards pirating
programs and not having a steady
income.


________________
counterfeitbacon

Yea, If I had the money, I sure as hell would have bought PS6, cause i get other shit with it, IR/PS refrence book/ and the feeling of knowing that I didn't pirate

See this is exactly the type of logic I don't understand.

The justification is that you have no money and since you have no money you wouldn't have bought it anyway but eventually later on down the road if you did have money you'd plan to buy a later version of the same software.

Isn't that the whole basis of stealing? Unless your Winoda Ryder, people generally steal because they can't afford what it is they are stealing. Eventually they pay for something, but that doesn't justify what they've previously stolen. So now they've paid for one item, but have benefited from two.

Photoshop, MP3s, Corvettes it doesn't matter. If you don't pay for their use and do use them, its stealing.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Uhhh...folks? Let's not get the Doc in trouble here, ok? It's one thing to discuss the piracy issue, and quite another thing to admit (or even boast) that one has pirated software...

This thread should be closed, and moved to the basement...and a new one started, without the acknowledgement of 'piracy'...

Either that, or certain posts should be 'edited' to remove such revelations...Just my opinion, of course, but let's keep in mind that actual admission of 'warez' is not exactly the best way to go about discussing this issue...but rather your opinion on the matter.

Jestah, are you telling me that you never downloaded ANY software or songs of the internet??????????????????????????????????????????????

common brother...lets get honest here...



MAX

well, I go with Webshaman here.
Closed and I move to delete it.
So if the next Pschotic/Ms could do that...

Why was this thread closed?



It's one thing to close a thread based on content pertaining to the trading or finding of pirated software but its completely ridiculous to close a thread because it mentions pirated software. This is a discussion on feelings towards pirated software, not a trading expo. Certainly discussion on a given law is not in violation of that said law, at least in the states anyway. I can't speak for the rest of the world.

Ducati, I'm not going to lie to you and suggest that I didn't get my first copy of Photoshop 4.0 from a high school teacher, but I can admit that everything on my two computers are paid for. I take great pride in knowing that I worked hard to purchase each and every software title that I have on my computer. I am a student like many other members of this community and believe any form of stealing is stealing.



-Jestah
Cell 277

Jestah .. just one question .. I'm avoiding the whole topic because the word FREE is the #1 word in a students dictionary .. and downloading software whether it is free or not is done constantly over the internet

anyway .. Jestah .. have you downloaded FREE software from the internet .. ie .. Mr. Max's HTML Beauty .. stuff of that regard?

cEll .::. 513

Of course I've downloaded free software RammStein. Downloading free software is completely different then downloading software for free.

-Jestah
Cell 277

I don't think this is the place to be discussing
pirated software.

This topic has come up countless tiems, and there are countless arguments on both sides of the coin. There is no problem with it being discussed here....so far as I know talking about the morality of pirating is not illegal

One major point I see here: most of the people I hear argue that *any* form of using pirating software is wong, are people who also tend to have plenty of money to spare to pay for such software, and often times didn't have to 'work hard' to get it (ie: rich parents/friends/etc).

I won't justify outright stealing, but if someone acquires a "free" version of a certain software, learns from it, uses it, comes to like it, and then down the road does purchase it, please explain to me where the harm from that is? I would consider it a trial use which determines whether or not the software is worth purchasing.

Obviously not everyone who has pirated software will fit this scenario. Many will simply get as much free stuff as they can. Most of these people will also never actaully *do* anything with the software....so again, in many cases, no-harm-no-foul.

I would guess that the percentage of people who actually pirate software, use it in a professional or quasi-professional environment and never purchase it is relatively small.

I dont agree too much with pirated software but untill I either have a well paid job or a job that profits from Photoshop I wont be buying Photoshop. But if you think about it Adobe isnt loosing out .. if there was no such thing as Piracy , I simply wouldnt have Photoshop, the fact that there is , lets me use it and learn how to use, this promotes me to buy future version when I can afford it.

Its always a tricky situation and the easy availability of pirated software doesn't help matters but people should investigate alternatives. PSP and PI are reasonably priced alternatives to PS (and getting better all the time) - I have a lot of software on my machines like DW, PI, HoTMetaL Pro and I've just moved over to AceFTP (which is great) and they are just older versions which have been made available on the cover discs of various computer and internet magazines (if you need the very latest version of something then I would imagine you are doing things professionally and then it is time to cough up). Other software is freely available. So have a look at:

1. Lower priced alternatives: PSP/PI instead of PS.

2. Demos: There are good demos available for a lot of software like Poser.

3. Magazine cover discs: I get an awful lot of fully working software this way (I notice that a recent PCFormat had a full version of Poser 3, for example).

4. Educational price reductions: If you are a student you can get some impressive deals.

5. Free software: There is an awful lot of good stuff out there like HTML beauty. If you are interested in audio software then have a look at all the things that Bram Bos makes available (Tuareg, Hammerhead, etc.) in fact you are helping everyone if you use free software and promote anything you use.

6. Shareware software: Same as above.

I can't criticise people for using illegal software (I've done it myself - I found some old ZXSpectrum tapes of games the other day!!) but I wouldn't condone blatant piracy either - what I'd rather do is promote alternatives (like the list above) so perhaps a good approach would be to start something up along these lines in the FAQ and then people can throw in their ideas and links.

I would like to caution some of the people in this list about discussing their illegal software usage as it could (hypothetically) put the Doc in a bad position. So if you do really have $250,000 worth of software on your computer no-one here wants to hear about it.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

- > I think it?s time for a good ol rant

<rant voice>

Stealing is illegal.

Software piracy is illegal.

Killing is illegal.


- Do what you will but if you get caught, your justification won't stand up against the law.

That being said, it's more likely that a company or educational institution would get caught compared to some guy just using the illegal version of the application for fun. All of the Universities in Australia have annual software audits so piracy even for the lecturers is a big no-no. It could cost the University millions and completely ruin their academic careers.

Although I seriously wish that Adobe would follow suit with the big name 3D companies. There's a free learning version of Maya and the free 3DS Max -> G-Max. Although I must admit, making a crippled version of a 2D program is well... darn near impossible. Unless you annoy the end users by disabling any export or PSD save functions. But that would suck. So, eh I doubt it'll ever happen...

My personal stance on this is somewhere in the middle. I can see the points on both sides of the fence. Yet I don't feel the need to pay commercial prices for an application if it's just for my own amusement. If there's an educational version then sure, which is why I have an educational version of PS. But some of the commercial apps that I use are really bloody expensive and I'm trying to pay for a roof, clothing and food on about $50 US a week.

Although if there's a free or cheaper alternative which works almost as good then I?ll use that instead.

But what does really shit me is when people apply this kind of logic to things like music and computer games. CD's and computer games are targeted to the general public, not big commercial companies. Their not a tool that could make you money and in turn they cost only a fraction of the price that something like the full commercial version of Photoshop does.

I have the upmost respect for my favourite artists and game developers and I cherish the fact that I support them. If I don't how the hell could I ever expect to be taken seriously as an artist myself.

How would you feel if you pored your heart and soul into making music, you made it your life's passion and then someone says "I shouldn't have to pay for the privilege of experiencing your life's long work!".

Why shouldn't you? What gives you the right to say that? Say that you can hear it on a radio station are is all well and good but that station pays for the music and you can only hear what the station chooses to play. Furthermore, if it weren?t for radio, many many musicians would go unnoticed.

Insider - "they aren't losing any money when the cd has "ART" in it..." No, they are loosing money. The musicians get very little from CD sales as it is, the last thing they need are fans like you.

Years ago in Australia being a semi popular band gave you enough to live off. That is if you could get a record contract that would distribute your CD?s throughout the nation. Nowadays, ever the member?s or rather popular bands have to have day jobs because their music just doesn?t bring in the money it used to. Why? Internet piracy.

Oh, and most computer game companies have said that they would reduce the prices of their titles if they sold more copies of them(read, eliminated piracy). It?s estimated that around 33% of people playing computer games play with pirated versions.

Now, a little lesson in how piracy only hurts the industry you love. If there were more people paying, the industry would be more lucrative thus there would be more developers which would = an even wider variety of titles to choose from and they would be cheaper.

</rant voice>

(I was also thinking that this topic would be more at home in the Philosophy section)



[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 06-07-2002).]

I *wish* I could say I've never pirated software. It's wrong, it's against the law, and I think it's silly when people try to justify it.

Let's face it: pirating software makes our lives easier, but that's no excuse for doing it. I don't care if it's a choice between not having it or pirating it. It's still illegal.

For me, buying Photoshop was a choice between not having it or having it illegally. I wouldn't consider, a while ago, buying it for the real price. I did, though. Surprise, surprise, turns out that by not pirating it early on, I eventually *did* spend the money on it. Had I pirated it, Adobe would have lost money.

I was going to say more, but I just now got bored. See ya =)

I've sketched out a few ideas here:
http://faq.ozoneasylum.com/FaqWiki/shownode.php?sortby=rating&id=522

Feel free to throw in any ideas/resources and add in any links - I just threw some thingsin there.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

~Whomever is without sins, throw the first stone~

Personally i think the record companies and software companies steal too. By selling incomplete software and abuse of the copyright laws. There are thrust laws for a good reason...

Artists and musicians should be protected so does their products.
have to go no i come back later.

Powered by Curiousity

*Don't really like posting in these topics, but....*

What I'll always stay with is this:-

Go your own way to learn.
Buy to work.


If you want to learn things then find your own way to require your tools. Weather that be the net the man down the road, etc or join a course, which will teach you the basics of what you want to learn. But if you go down the wrong road, you'll have to live in fear of the piracy poeple to knock on your door asking questions.

If you are making money out of what you use then I think it's only right to buy your way. If you use the tools day in, day out every day why not pay the poeple that make the tools for you? You get paid for what you create so why don't you pay the people who created the tools for you to work?

But more to add to this is that the big companies know that there is a big piracy going on with there gear they sell, but don?t do much about it for home users. Why don?t they do a lot of crack down on home users? Because in the long run your going to work in a company or freelance, which in turn the employers and companies must make there gear all legal because of the pressure the like adobe, etc put on them to make it all legal, with big fines, company shame, etc.

But I do see the points on both sides, but the companies do a lot to help people out by having student discounts, OEM gear, demos (which I think are silly because if you want to get to really understand the software I think you more than 30 days to do it), etc?? so I don?t see the problem of it all. Yes we all like to have the full latest versions of software, but if you don?t have the money then it?s tuff.

Drac: your right about ?piracy only hurts the industry you love? because it does because these companies might one day just pull the plug and development of there products because there making no money out of it. And then what do you work with? PSP?, MS paint?

Look at Maya for one they have released a full version for you to work, called Maya PLE, now if that?s not doing good for it?s learner and users what is? Companies are changing there ways to help, it?s just a matter of waiting for them to change ??.

- DS -

One of my favorite alternatives to paying full price is this little song & dance I learned of from an old client. He would go to used bookstores and look for out-dated user manuals for popular, high-priced programs. Now when you buy an "upgrade" for an application, they want proof of ownership. What do they usually accept? Either a receipt (which most people have lost), or the first page of that old manual! It's legal, and follows all the rules, and you get a legal copy of the newest software for cheap.

Your pal, -doc-

*jaw drops on floor* I never knew that...Thanks, Doc!!!

Boy, now I know what I'm going to be doing on vacation in the states this fall...browsing 2nd hand book stores....hehe...

Jestah .. ok just making sure .. lol

Doc .. splendid idea! .. one that I will practice myself as well now

cEll .::. 513

Woohoo...I've seen a 3DSMAX4 manual at our public library here in Vancouver! w00t!

Thanks DOC!


________________
counterfeitbacon

Breaking news:

Strange epidemic hitting public libraries.
Front covers of software manuals mysteriously disappearing.
Librarians around the world are in shock.

CF:
I just took a good look a your sig.
You should talk to someone.
-SS

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

*/been away in therapy. feel better now./*

i have to be honest. i have used ill gotten programs before. i do appreciate that companies like Adobe need my one purchase to make sure thier development teams can come up with quality programming like Photoshop Elements and Pagemaker (huge ammounts of sarcasm). but it is truly frustrating to look at, let's say, web site design these days and realize that you need not only and image editing solution, but a programming solution, a layout solution, a multimedia solution, an audio editing solution, a hosting solution, a provider solution, marketing, etc, etc, etc,etc.

it seems to me that the web is heading the way of car mechanics. you can't hope to work on a brand new Chevy without buying high dollar machines to read computer codes and lasers to balance and align your tires. back in the day, it was the price of a tool box filled with metal and some gum. where is a new designer supposed to get all that stuff and be able to learn it?

my justification for the use of "free" products is simply this:
you want me to be brand loyal and spend my money with you, then I have to use your stuff sometime.

i do not, however, justify the continued use of products when your stupid a** can afford it. if your making money, buy the products. when i started in design, i used stolen stuff. but i learned and i bought and now i even register shareware and donate for freeware.

what i can't justify is the cost of these programs from the company's side. where the h-double-hockey-sticks does quark get off charging so much for it's program? that is piracy to me but because it is the main layout program, i need it and i buy it. but i'd love to see an industry wide switch to InDesign (as good as Quark) but even that program is fairly costly.

ah well, just my thoughts. take em or leave em.

zero


don't you?!?

[This message has been edited by zro1zro (edited 06-07-2002).]

My moms an attorney, she tells me that it isn't illegal to download, just to post. So if I post a link right here where you can download the full version of ps6 for free, then adobe can sue me. So I don't promote piracy, and definately not posting warez, but downloading it and then later buying it from the expirience and joy with the illegal copy, is like DL said, not harmful...

Hmm, are you sure your mom is up on fair use, copyright, and intelectual property law?

Downloading a version of software without the license purchased to use it IS illegal. Well, to clarify, downloading it isn't illegal...using the downloaded copy is illegal.

Adobe provides a downloadable "tryout" version of their software for learning and research testing. It comes with it's own usage policies, and user agreement. Using that limited version is perfectly legal. However, that doesn't mean that using any version of PS for a "time trial" is legal. Adobe provides those tiral versions for exactly that reason.

I'm not going to debate the "right and wrong" of it. A persons' morality is their own to deal with. But when it comes to the legalities of using pirated software, the law lays it out rather cleanly. Pirated music etc. has its own fish to fry right now.



Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

A friend of mine gave me his copy of studio max 3 as he doesn't use it (is this piracy?) but as for Maya, well I've been wanting to have a look at that for a while and now I have picked up the learning edition which although it is heavily watermarked it is still the full deal so I can learn it for free. much better than paying thousands for it only to realise you cant get on with it.

who knows, one day I may(a) get a job in the computer generated film industry but one thing's for certain, I won't unless I know maya. I think this is definately the way all software companies should go


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

Morph: technically "distribution" or "redistribution" of software is illegal fwiw.

Read the users agreement (license) and you should find words to that effect.

::edit::

another little known or ignored fact is that the license is usually for one installation on one computer, meaning that a single piece of software generally cannot be installed on mulitple puters. Thats why often Companies will purchase 'multiple licenses, which allow the company to buy software for multiple users. Again, usually multiple licences are somewhat discounted in comparison to an individual one.

[This message has been edited by vogonpoet (edited 06-08-2002).]

Morph.

As long as your friend doesn't keep a copy of the software on his computer, and use it, then it's not piracy to take it from him and use it.

Chances are that he has a single user license, which gives him the right to use the program on one machine (or multiple machines if he's the sole user). Single user licenses usually have a bit of leeway in them, but they boil down to that fact.

If he keeps a copy and uses it, with the same serial number etc. then yes it is piracy...of a sort. It's a breech of the user agreement that he digitally signed when he installed the software.

If your friend has more than a single user license (mucho expenso) then he can let you use it if he wants, as long as he adheres to his license agreement (which means you'd probably have to be an employee of him, or his company, using the software for work related projects either on a network or independtly on machines approved for company use).

I agree that learnware is the way to go....great marketing for good software.

VP, so what you are basically saying is that once you buy a piece of software and register it, then legally you're stuck with it for life?


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

Nah.

If you buy the software, insert the serial number (registration is really superfluous, it's just an aside so that the company can track users and give them "perks") and install the software, then that's your one installation.

If you don't use it, and want to sell it, or give it away, then you need to uninstall the software, THEN give the installation disks, serial number etc. to the next person. Once it's gone off your machine, then the "one installation on one machine" deal is open again.

But this seems to conflict with VP's distribution or redistribution theory, so assuming that the guy I got 3dsmax from has uninstalled it, can I safely assume I'm not breaching piracy laws?


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

ooopppsssss...double post...

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 06-08-2002).]

quote:

---

CF:
I just took a good look a your sig.
You should talk to someone.
-SS

---

What's bad...the texture, the blood. Should I get a new way to do metal?

Maybe Adobe could offer a 3 month Pshop demo?




[This message has been edited by nooPhella (edited 06-08-2002).]

CF:
No, what i meant is when you draw a razor blade
with your name on it, add blood also....well, i might be a bit
concerned if it was my kid...do you know what i mean?
were you trying to tell us something?

SS: It's just the sig that I made for the June Sig Competition (Torture/Therapy). A razor blade would be pretty torturous, and the blood would imply that it was used/is being used and my name is on it since your name is generally on a sig. It's pretty disturbing though, but thats why I don't show my mom

They already offer a 1 month demo.

The 'educational' justification just doesn't make too much sense. I mean the software IS available for free or very little. Before I purchase any software, I generally download a trial version from the manufacturer to see what its all about. If you can't handle the heavy download on your 56k, many books actually come with demos. I believe the Photoshop WOW series does, I'll check later. There are many, many courses you can take through your high school or local community college that deals with different software.

Also most stores have fairly good return policies. Don't want to use a demo version of Photoshop? Purchase it and bring it home. Then evaluate it at home. If it turns out you don't like the software, by all means return it. This is the reason stores have return policies.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Also, if you really are the rare user who wants to learn how to use the software without the cost, going with a Linux setup could be a good solution for you. Theres lots of good software out there for free.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Ok CF... thanks...just checking to see
if the kids are alright as the Who would say

argument: some software is worth some hundred times more than some countries' minimal wage (not talking about industry directed software that's way over double zero)

any counter argument?


demi-argument: information should always be free. a program is just text in it's core, therefore information, so...


demi-demi-argument: most of the time the good stuff is freeware

if you use msoffice instead of star office... dude whatever

but if you use ps instead of mspaint... dude, you rule, i dont care how


incoherent, yes that it is. what isnt?

don't steal. it's just a matter of not-stealing.
i agree with your teachers.

[This message has been edited by Arthemis (edited 06-08-2002).]

The Who? I think you mean Pink Floyd my friend, you got your british classic rock bands mixed up.

CFB: LOL you don't show your mom hehehe...

Insider: just had to poke my head back to assure you that 'the kids are alright' is most definately The Who, and not Pink Floyd.

Thanks DL.
InSider. I don't know hip hop from rap and all that crap you
kids listen to. Don't ask, I Can't Explain, ok?

But British Rock? Well, that's My Generation and I
know that My Wife would agree with that.


Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere I'm not posting
to give you the Young Man Blues but just remember
that when it comes to British Rock..well I Can See For Miles.

So I hope you Won't Get Fooled Again into thinking this
was Pink Floyd and I hope we can all Join Together
and shout "Long Live Rock"

enuf already. I'm a Happy Jack Now. I just wanted
to post A Quick One While He's Away

Gets back on the Magic Bus with Baba O'Riley and asks
Tommy "Can You Hear Me"?

But again, I might be wrong. It might be the Stones.

A matter of not stealing?

C'mon. I mean if someone doesn't want to shell out money for a good peice of software, thats their business but its also stealing. It's like buying a car. You don't go out and steal someone elses Corvette because you want to see if you like it before you spend the money, you take a test drive. Adobe offers demos as does many other companies. Many video game manufacturers send out demos all the time.

Information should be free? You've seen AntiTrust too many times. Information is free, but when you apply that information to something and create a product, why should that product be free? After all a car is information applied to mechanics. Should all automobiles be free?

-Jestah
Cell 277

I think the worst pirate is Captain Crunch.
I think they should put him away for good.

i always thought the worst pirate is Captain Hook.

Definately Capt. Bluebeard...he was the worst...

Captin Kangeroo gets no respect.

-Jestah
Cell 277

"Information should always be free" is an opinion, not law. And a program is more than just text at its core, its hundreds, maybe thousands, of man hours and great monetary investment. If such work always had to be given away, then no one would be able to afford to create it, therefore it would never be created. That's one of the things copyright law is there to protect.

I'd just love to see one of you guys spend months and your savings researching and writing a book, then have someone come along and copy it without your express permission. "It's only text," he'd say, "and should be free."

And people need to start opening their minds to the idea that, by copying something, you may be hurting the author in ways you didn't even think of. Want a hypothetical example? Sure, here you go:

On my Web site I have an article on Big Tex, the ambassador, if you will, for the State Fair of Texas. So, some guy comes along, loves the article and the photos and wants to put it on his site. "It's just information," he says to himself. "I'm not selling it and good ol' Wes isn't making money off of it, so my copying it won't do any harm. Besides, anything freely visible on the Web can't be stolen." So, he puts the article and photos on his own site.

A couple weeks later, I get a call from Nancy Wiley and the State Fair organization telling me to remove the article from my Web site. I subsequently lose quite a bit of traffic ? more than my thief imagined, because he has no idea how many people search for "Big Tex" ? and in the process, many contacts who could help me get my TV show off the ground. Not to mention those who would have gotten to my site looking for Big Tex and discover other photos that they would have offered to purchase to use in various books. (Yes, that does happen to me.)

What happened? Well, because the little schmuck figured all information is free and was so arrogant to think that there couldn't be a situation he wasn't imagining, he didn't bother to find out that I had to obtain express permission from the State Fair organization to do the article and to post photos of Big Tex on my site, even if I took them. You see, Big Tex is a trademark of the fair and brings in revenue for them. And even though I myself had permission to use the information, once the fair found out that the information was being distributed beyond my control, they just figured it was safer to tell me to take it down, which they have the obsolute right to do.

So, again, my point is that even though you think you're not doing any harm, there are twists and turns your little minds aren't coming up with, which are the reasons we have copyright laws.

Great post Wes.

-Jestah
Cell 277

I think Captain Highliner has a crush on Billy.
One thing for sure, he would never babysit my kids.

sorry to hear about that Wes. That sucks.
That is indeed why we have copyright laws.

LOL @ ShootingStars` British Rock post. hehehe

Arthemis : dude, Get a grip.

And for the record I , too, would like to see you * all information should be free* bozos spend 3 ( or more) years in development 2 years in testing, supporting a team of progammers, an ad team, investing all the money you can borrow, sign a contract to have a few thousand CDs made, then stand up on a podium and say * Yea , it`s only information. It`s free.*

insider, cfb : Naw, you wouldn`t get it if I said it either.


Cell245

Brilliant post Wes.

It's not amazing to see justification when it comes to copyright infringements, and theft. People are notorious for justifying any and all behaviour to suit their desire to either be lazier, or save money (in essence being lazier by proxy). It's funny really, I have more respect when someone says "Yeah, I stole it...and it doesn't bother me."

Hey, a warped moral conscience, but at least they're not making foolish arguments to try and show how it isn't "wrong". Own what you do....own the consequences when they come.

One more thing. I'm a huge proponent of the ideal of keeping information fully accessible and free to users....however, I'm not a proponent of the theft of intellectual property, and the decimation of a human's work. Don't like the idea of a large corporation making money off of you for a product they had built by engineers? Fine...then go through the list of engineers that worked on Photoshop (etc.) and send each one of them a buck a piece to account for the amount of work they put into your pirated version of software.

Funnily enough, even though a buck is cheap as hell for all their work...hours of code and testing...it'd still be cheaper to buy the program.

So when people say "we support developers and the open source idea" that's great community spirit...when YOU'RE doing the work...but don't slight a man (or woman) their hard fought hours of work by hiding under that umbrella when you're too cheap to purchase the software.

Yes corporations overprice software out the ass when levied against the amount of distribution...but then I'd bet that you'd try and sell your car for a fuck of a lot more than bluebook price if people were willing to pay it.

~shrug~

Justification...it's a funny game.

---------------------------------------

As for Captain Highliner: Anecdote, completely true.
During The Grey Cup (basically the Superbowl of Canadian Football) one year, a new commercial for Highliner's "tartar sauce filled battered sole" came on.

As my friends and I were watching the game, the Captain looks right at Billy and says "Arr Billy, come over here and let the Captain fill yer cheeks with cream."

I damned near wet my pants after I stopped staring gape-mouthed in shock. Suffice to say the commercial never aired again.

*gently caresses his reciept for Photoshop 5*
I'm a goooood boy...

njuice42
icq 957255

*Writes this without reading any other posts*
Pirated Software!!? Give me some links!

[This message has been edited by OlssonE (edited 06-08-2002).]

Whoops, I think OlssonE just invited a rain of shit down on himself

To be fair, I agree with the above points about developers time and whatever but I still think that a learning edition should be provided rather than a month trial version. they can't be used for commercial works due to the watermarks or save disable features but without trial versions it does mean that a lot of gifted people will never be able start out in the industry and I think that would set us back years.

Imagine wanting to learn something like Houdini that weighs in at £14,000 I don't believe there is a home user alive who would pay that so the only people who get to use it are those already in the industry. As I say, there are a lot of potentially very talented people out there who may never even see these programs.


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

With something like Houdini... the company pays to train the employee's (who have usually gotten into the industry knowing a less expencive program), who have already recieved training from schools. Its not meant to be a program used by small developement firms, or by freelance artists. If the company wanted you to be able to use it for free, then they would provide a freeware version of it for the public. But since they don't want everyone to have a copy, what gives you the right to steal it from them?

Hey Dan, I never said anything about stealing anything, but if Maya and lightwave can produce a learning edition then why not Houdini or Photoshop? If someone were dead set on trying one of these programs out and an LE version was not available then piracy would be the only alternative. When I stand before the beak and he asks me "how did you manage to buy Maya on your pay?" I would'nt have to bow my head and say "I stole it"

I'm not condoning piracy at all but I can see why people do it. There are dozens of programs out there I would love to try but won't ever get the chance because I have to choose carefully how I spend my hard earned and I don't want the old bill knocking on my door. I say well done to Alias Wavefront for having the courage and vision to produce Maya LE and I hope Adobe and all the others follow their example


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

As far as I know, there is a free limited edition of Photoshop, isn't there? And Houdini student version is only USD $250. If someone was really set on learning the program, they may as well take a class, and get a legal version of it, as well as instruction on how to use it.
By the way, I'm not condemning piracy. Just those who attempt to justify stealing.

Of course theres a demo version of Photoshop. Its just not a full unrestricted, uncrippled, version.

-Jestah
Cell 277

i am not saying that i support piracy but in my opinion if they do not want their programs or music pirated they should do more to prevent it. For instance iMesh and WinMX and Morpheus are all almost exactly like Napster. If they stopped napster then if they really cared why aren't they stopping the other programs. So piracy is just a way of life. The people in charge of all the programs that are pirated are just going to have to face that.



[This message has been edited by trust_no1 (edited 06-09-2002).]

nevermind....

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 06-09-2002).]

CB: you posted about using a copy of so you could learn it before college. Well most art schools wont care if you know photoshop or not, it's just a medium. They want to know if you have a developed style and have started trianing your 'artist eye'. Also they want to see if you've invested yourself in being an artist you can show that with crayolas. Heck at alot of universities you may not even have a digital assignment until after your first two semesters of school . .maybe longer.

I saw a couple posts from people using the logic "I'm a student, I don't have any money and I need to use the software to learn it for class." Well I was in that position myself a few years ago. Heres my solution: I got off my ass and went to the computer lab where they provided the computers and software to complete my projects. I'm better for it too because I wasnt the only person in the lab, a lot of my classmates were there with me and we worked together. It was like having a mini Asylum, we critiqued each other, shared techniques, and became strong friends. . for the most part. So if you own photoshop don't pirate it go to the lab, hell if you own photoshop go to the lab anyway. If you're in a design/art program that doesn't provide some sort facilities to do your assignments you need probably need to find another program.

just my 2¢

Yeah, good advice Osprey. I own a copy of PS but I use the University labs all the time for similar reasons. I may have Photoshop at home but I have a PC. If I'm training to be a designer then I ~need~ to know how to use a Mac and use it well. Which also comes in handy when I want to test my websites cross-platform.

I also have access to a stupid ammount of equipment while I'm at Uni, digital cameras, kick ass scanners and four colour printers, digital video cameras! DVD burners, and my favourite, da 9X12 Wacom! I also have access to a huge range of other applications there that I'd never used before like Painter 8, Lightwave, Maya, iMovie, Director, err lots of stuff. It's a techno junky paradise and it's all legal, free and open 24/7!... Although thery get a little narky at you if your caught sleeping under the desks. Not that I've ever dont that before but I've seen it happen a couple of times, espically towards the end of semester when everything's due!...

Actually, when I walked into the G4 labs last friday morning (around 7:00 am) it was already half full with seedy looking people surounded by bottles of V and other various energy drinks.... My first reaction was to laugh but I soon found myself met several cold blank stares that said "die you bastard die!" So I shut up and quietly found a computer to finish my work.



[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 06-09-2002).]

Just to clarify, docilebob, that was a hypothetical example. But, it illustrates my point that there are circumstances that the "everything should be shared" advocates don't bother to imagine.

This is a subject I'm all fired up about lately (although focused more toward copyright as it applies to creative works than toward warez) because a girl at work argued with me about it. She was a computer major and "had a class" all about the subject. According to her, anyone should be able to take anyone else's stuff off the Internet and use it how they please. In her words, "the Internet was based on file sharing." She didn't explain what the hell that was supposed to mean and how it meant anyone could plagiarize my writing and my images. And I was too dumbfounded to argue the point properly.

Basically, to her, copyright laws haven't been written to apply to the Internet yet; it's all just one big "gray area." I can guarantedd you she's never even read the copyright laws. They're pretty clear. It gets me aggravated just thinking about the conversation. And to top it off, she's hot. And that really steams my clams.

Anyone remember the Content Protection for Recordable Media and Pre-Recorded Media
(CPRM / CPPM) Specification. Nope? Well basically it means that you will need "permission" (i.e well not exactly but close) to backup or store almost anything on your hard drive or other storage media....sound scary? read the book 1984 by George Orwell...now that's scary.

what i'm saying is be careful what you wish for. yes, we need to protect IP and copyrights and trademarks etc....but if you let the politicians do it...well the next thing you know is need you need their permission to create a file in the first place.


So there is another side to the copyright issue. ...and that's when dickhead legislators use "protecting intellectual property" as an excuse for.......well read this for a start:
http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20020503_dmca_consequences.html

Ah, well that`s good. I`m not near as bummed about it as I was a bit ago.

Seems that *steamed clams * is becoming a way of life...

The more I learn about people, the more I love my computer..

Wes what your coworker seems to be confused about is that sharing and stealing are two entirly different things. Sure when everything was still ARPA professors and scientists used it to share ideas and research but they were sharing their own ideas. They weren't trading copies of their favorite boy band's albums.

I found software piracy to be a rather good idea up until I came across open source software.

Now it seems a far better idea for me to use the open source alternative as opposed to a pirated piece of software.

This holds a two fold benifit.

1) You don't get that shamed feeling for using pirated software.

2) You get to help move the market shares towards the free software thus providing more demand, better support for the software, and better software.

Alternatives to PS like Gimp or to MSOffice with OpenOffice even Visual C++ with Gnu C/C++ (gcc). If the people who can not afford to purchase the proprietary they should use the open source alternative. From here they will learn how to use the open source version, tell their friends about it, and ultimately bring it into the work force with them. This would then further increase the performance of the open source version of the product since revenue could be put into the design team to further tweek the software for specialty needs.

Piracy of software does not have to be an issue, it just takes a little research, and you don't have to pirate.

Further into the future the major piracy concerns will be with elite specialty programs, movies and music.

I really don't like piracy in the areas of music and movies. I feel that if you want to use MP3's you should at least own the CD that the music is on, or if you don't delete the music after 24 hours. The musicians do work really hard at their craft and if you like what they do you should suport them, and respect their right to sell their work. If they wanted to give it away they would. I think pirating of movies is just bad form. If you see the movie once you aren't nessesarly going to want to see it again. At least wait to rent it for the $3-5 or go to the theater, or buy it. Yes the people behind the movies tend to be rich, but you should still support their 'ART' and pay for it as they request.

Ranting is fun.

Cheers,

Morph, ShootingStar, WarMage > Very good points.

Dan & Jestah: I am of course aware that there are demo versions of photoshop, heck i could proberbly find half a dozen copies of it if I trawled through my collection of coverdiscs but I cant see how you can learn an application like photoshop in 30 days unless you can sit at your screen for 18 hours a day. I have been using photoshop for 5 years professionally and at home and I'm still learning. ok, you can develope the flavour of the program in that time but that won't get you a job.

Now, faced with a crippled 30 day demo version, or $250 dollars for a student version or a full, unrestricted free version, which way do you think the average pirate is going to go? Even if Photoshop were brought down to $10 people would still obtain free, illegal copies. for some I don't think its the cost they find prohibative as the pure joy of getting away with something.


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

look, fact of the matter is, don't take it if it doesn't belong to you. Accessability & availability doesn't neccessarily make it right. If I made some killer software, and decided to market it, I wouldn't want people to just plaster it all over the www and get it for free. Taking intellectual property without permission is no different that stealing your next door neigbors car. They are simply taking something that doesn't rightfully belong to you.....not that I really care, just calling a spade a spade.



[This message has been edited by jive (edited 06-09-2002).]

Good news. At least for the recording industry.
I heard on the radio, that a local montreal radio
station has had its sound engineers develop
a new medium which is almost impossible to duplicate...

the new medium consists of special black discs (no, not like the psx)
that are about 12" in diameter and made of a high tech material called vinyl.
the discs play sound when a special cartridge with this stylus (think needle)
passes over grooves in the surface of the disk (think CD without the laser)

the player is called a turntable...anyway this is really good news for the recording
industry but i'm not ready yet to junk my CD collection.

what do you guys and gals think?

Naaa, it'll never catch on. I read somewhere recently that someone brought out a music CD that wouldn't play on a pc or mac. Hours later it was available on the internet. how did they do it? some bright spark played the CD into a pc microphone and recorded it that way. theres always an angle.


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

Okay this is probably a dumb question, but:

Do they have the OEM equivalent of software?

Like buy a legit copy, but without the shrink-wrapped box, nice shiny manual, tech support or whatever even, for a lot cheaper? If they do, where can I find out more? If they don't, why not?


Also, for students wanting to fool around with Maya and stuff without being able to afford it, look into your local College of Computing, or equivalent. Some colleges have campus-wide licenses, or undergrad research positions that provide such software that can be used on campus machines. In most cases, all you have to do is give them a good reason why you would want a copy. It's amazing the amount of quality software you can get legit access to if you're a student in a fairly large campus and you have the time



.. One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor ..

Aerosoul: I don't know much OEM software, I know a said it but never really looked into it that much but I think you can or did. Microsoft do some that's how I knew about it, but do a google.

Anyway I waned to post this before but I didn't want to rise this topic again. It's basicly a BSA report on global software piracy study, might want a look.

-- DS --

[This message has been edited by Darkshadow (edited 06-11-2002).]

dark: I think the kind you are talking about are the ones that come bundled with new computers and stuff. I was actually talking more along the lines of something you can purchase separately that just isn't quite as shiny as the regular version. I think that a lot of people who use pirated software would be willing to forego manuals, addons, goodies, etc to be able to have a legit copy, if it meant a substantial price difference. Then again though, how much cheaper could they possibly make it without the accessories?

.. One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor ..

What I think about piracy?
It's illegal period.
Do I do have any pirated software in my computer. Maybe I do. And do I feel bad? If I had, no, I don't. I wouldn't be making any money from them. This is no excuse for (maybe) having them, still illegal if I was doing it. But it's enough to make me feel not bad at all (if I had them). Period.
Contradictory? Yes. Specially because, let's say I have some pirated software in my computer, this would be one out of the ONLY two illegal stuff I do in life. The other is driving my car beyond the speed limit and crossing red signs.

Now, an interesting (at least for me) history: back in september/00, I discovered Napster. I was surprised with that tool. Man! I can download all the music I want for free!! That's amazing. This stupid country I live has only junk music, no good music to buy in stores, so the only way I had to buy my CDs was using Internet, for a high price, since there is 60% tax over any importation. Now I have Napster!! From sept/00 to dec/00 all I did was to download music from Napster.
But, instead of downloading all kinds of music, I downloaded mostly just one kind of music. Willie Nelson's CDs. Why Willie Nelson (WN)? I wasn't a fan of him but, by downloading a complete CD of WN, I suddenly became in love with his music. Then, I downloaded another CD, and another, an another, etc... I use a modem so to download a whole CD took patience (to find good quality files) and time (to download them), and days and days looking for the all the musics of that CD. WN has an impressive discography, so it's (it was) tough to find a whole CD in Napster. But, with patience and patience and days and days, I downloaded around 50 complete CDs by WN.
All I wanted to hear was WN's music. My wife couldn't stand him anymore.
What happen then? Napster went down and I get tired of downloading music from Internet. It's too damn tedious for a modem guy. Never used Kazaa or the like. I stopped completely pirating music.
What happen to my WN's fanatism? Still here. BUT, I have already bought around 25 legal and original CDs from him, to replace, little by little, all the CDs I downloaded illegaly via Napster. He's a great singer and he deserves my money. And I only know he's a great singer because I had the chance to really know his work. I could burn the musics in CDs, but no, I'm buying his CDs, CDs that I already have in computer.
Thanks to piracy!

hey! look at that!

85 posts already....

*yawn* well..... if you see this thread's value outside of the Philosophy Forum, open another one...

*pulls out the padlock*


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342