Preserved Topic: Pirated Software (Page 1 of 3)

I was talking to a few of my old high school teachers when we came on the subject of pirated software. Now the three men were all computer science teachers and what shocked me was they all seemed to not only support using pirated software but also went to lengths to justified it. The core of their argument was that since no physical thing was stolen and no one lost money since they didn't intent to purchase it anyway, it wasn't stealing.

I found that logic rather loopy but to each their own.

What are your opinions?

-Jestah
Cell 277

ill be perfectly honest with you all, as a 14 year old, hardly any money, I sure as hell couldn't buy photoshop, I downloaded it, but I don't endorse it, i also downloaded flash and image ready as well , but its not illegal to download, infact that shouldn't be wrong, its posting it and cracking it so people can download it from you is wrong...

now pirated music i think we shouldnt have a problem with, they make the music we listen to it, we listen to it on the radio and we don't have to pay, why the fuck should pay for it online, they aren't losing any money when the cd has "ART" in it...

I find that logic to be extremely frightening. Then they do not believe in intellectual property rights? And they are teachers?

Ideas are not physical entities, but they are still protected by law. And software is more than just an idea... although you may not be able to touch it, it still exists. What about all the money floating around in cyberspace (I'm thinking of bank transfers, etc. )? Is that not real money?

These people are obviously not in touch with reality and with the ever-changing definition of "existence."

I won't condone piracy, but it is a complex issues. Years
ago I remember reading a business case about early
software such as Wordstar and even Lotus 1-2-3. There
were very compelling arguments put forward that without
piracy these softwares would never have attained the success
they did...or not nearly. why. reach, ubiquity, critical mass, user base
etc....free software does very well.

And let's face it a 14 year old is not going to sell his cd collection
to buy 3d studio max and photoshop. are the companies losing money?
only if the little bastards (just kidding) use it for commercial purposes
and even then who knows....the good thing for the publisher, hopefully, is
that the little pirate will one day introduce the software in a large corp
and actually pay for it.

I'm 14 also, and have virtually no money (I'm still paying off my $400 guitar to my Dad) and have no intention of buying Photoshop, ImageReady and the other pirated programs that I have on my hard drive. I have this justifies in my mind because I have every intention of going to colledge, taking advances classes in the programs and getting a job doing freelance work or commercial work with the programs that I own/going into a commercial buisness where I will have bought the programs that I own. Overall, I would like to have the experience using them before I turn 16 and have a steady income and appreciate the cracked appz out there on iMesh etc. I would NEVER use those for and type of job except for schoolwork or a class or my own personal use...

...is this justified enough?
...I think that it is?
...Then again, I think that being about
the same age as InSiDeR, I would
have similar feeling towards pirating
programs and not having a steady
income.


________________
counterfeitbacon

Yea, If I had the money, I sure as hell would have bought PS6, cause i get other shit with it, IR/PS refrence book/ and the feeling of knowing that I didn't pirate

See this is exactly the type of logic I don't understand.

The justification is that you have no money and since you have no money you wouldn't have bought it anyway but eventually later on down the road if you did have money you'd plan to buy a later version of the same software.

Isn't that the whole basis of stealing? Unless your Winoda Ryder, people generally steal because they can't afford what it is they are stealing. Eventually they pay for something, but that doesn't justify what they've previously stolen. So now they've paid for one item, but have benefited from two.

Photoshop, MP3s, Corvettes it doesn't matter. If you don't pay for their use and do use them, its stealing.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Uhhh...folks? Let's not get the Doc in trouble here, ok? It's one thing to discuss the piracy issue, and quite another thing to admit (or even boast) that one has pirated software...

This thread should be closed, and moved to the basement...and a new one started, without the acknowledgement of 'piracy'...

Either that, or certain posts should be 'edited' to remove such revelations...Just my opinion, of course, but let's keep in mind that actual admission of 'warez' is not exactly the best way to go about discussing this issue...but rather your opinion on the matter.

Jestah, are you telling me that you never downloaded ANY software or songs of the internet??????????????????????????????????????????????

common brother...lets get honest here...



MAX

well, I go with Webshaman here.
Closed and I move to delete it.
So if the next Pschotic/Ms could do that...

Why was this thread closed?



It's one thing to close a thread based on content pertaining to the trading or finding of pirated software but its completely ridiculous to close a thread because it mentions pirated software. This is a discussion on feelings towards pirated software, not a trading expo. Certainly discussion on a given law is not in violation of that said law, at least in the states anyway. I can't speak for the rest of the world.

Ducati, I'm not going to lie to you and suggest that I didn't get my first copy of Photoshop 4.0 from a high school teacher, but I can admit that everything on my two computers are paid for. I take great pride in knowing that I worked hard to purchase each and every software title that I have on my computer. I am a student like many other members of this community and believe any form of stealing is stealing.



-Jestah
Cell 277

Jestah .. just one question .. I'm avoiding the whole topic because the word FREE is the #1 word in a students dictionary .. and downloading software whether it is free or not is done constantly over the internet

anyway .. Jestah .. have you downloaded FREE software from the internet .. ie .. Mr. Max's HTML Beauty .. stuff of that regard?

cEll .::. 513

Of course I've downloaded free software RammStein. Downloading free software is completely different then downloading software for free.

-Jestah
Cell 277

I don't think this is the place to be discussing
pirated software.

This topic has come up countless tiems, and there are countless arguments on both sides of the coin. There is no problem with it being discussed here....so far as I know talking about the morality of pirating is not illegal

One major point I see here: most of the people I hear argue that *any* form of using pirating software is wong, are people who also tend to have plenty of money to spare to pay for such software, and often times didn't have to 'work hard' to get it (ie: rich parents/friends/etc).

I won't justify outright stealing, but if someone acquires a "free" version of a certain software, learns from it, uses it, comes to like it, and then down the road does purchase it, please explain to me where the harm from that is? I would consider it a trial use which determines whether or not the software is worth purchasing.

Obviously not everyone who has pirated software will fit this scenario. Many will simply get as much free stuff as they can. Most of these people will also never actaully *do* anything with the software....so again, in many cases, no-harm-no-foul.

I would guess that the percentage of people who actually pirate software, use it in a professional or quasi-professional environment and never purchase it is relatively small.

I dont agree too much with pirated software but untill I either have a well paid job or a job that profits from Photoshop I wont be buying Photoshop. But if you think about it Adobe isnt loosing out .. if there was no such thing as Piracy , I simply wouldnt have Photoshop, the fact that there is , lets me use it and learn how to use, this promotes me to buy future version when I can afford it.

Its always a tricky situation and the easy availability of pirated software doesn't help matters but people should investigate alternatives. PSP and PI are reasonably priced alternatives to PS (and getting better all the time) - I have a lot of software on my machines like DW, PI, HoTMetaL Pro and I've just moved over to AceFTP (which is great) and they are just older versions which have been made available on the cover discs of various computer and internet magazines (if you need the very latest version of something then I would imagine you are doing things professionally and then it is time to cough up). Other software is freely available. So have a look at:

1. Lower priced alternatives: PSP/PI instead of PS.

2. Demos: There are good demos available for a lot of software like Poser.

3. Magazine cover discs: I get an awful lot of fully working software this way (I notice that a recent PCFormat had a full version of Poser 3, for example).

4. Educational price reductions: If you are a student you can get some impressive deals.

5. Free software: There is an awful lot of good stuff out there like HTML beauty. If you are interested in audio software then have a look at all the things that Bram Bos makes available (Tuareg, Hammerhead, etc.) in fact you are helping everyone if you use free software and promote anything you use.

6. Shareware software: Same as above.

I can't criticise people for using illegal software (I've done it myself - I found some old ZXSpectrum tapes of games the other day!!) but I wouldn't condone blatant piracy either - what I'd rather do is promote alternatives (like the list above) so perhaps a good approach would be to start something up along these lines in the FAQ and then people can throw in their ideas and links.

I would like to caution some of the people in this list about discussing their illegal software usage as it could (hypothetically) put the Doc in a bad position. So if you do really have $250,000 worth of software on your computer no-one here wants to hear about it.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

- > I think it?s time for a good ol rant

<rant voice>

Stealing is illegal.

Software piracy is illegal.

Killing is illegal.


- Do what you will but if you get caught, your justification won't stand up against the law.

That being said, it's more likely that a company or educational institution would get caught compared to some guy just using the illegal version of the application for fun. All of the Universities in Australia have annual software audits so piracy even for the lecturers is a big no-no. It could cost the University millions and completely ruin their academic careers.

Although I seriously wish that Adobe would follow suit with the big name 3D companies. There's a free learning version of Maya and the free 3DS Max -> G-Max. Although I must admit, making a crippled version of a 2D program is well... darn near impossible. Unless you annoy the end users by disabling any export or PSD save functions. But that would suck. So, eh I doubt it'll ever happen...

My personal stance on this is somewhere in the middle. I can see the points on both sides of the fence. Yet I don't feel the need to pay commercial prices for an application if it's just for my own amusement. If there's an educational version then sure, which is why I have an educational version of PS. But some of the commercial apps that I use are really bloody expensive and I'm trying to pay for a roof, clothing and food on about $50 US a week.

Although if there's a free or cheaper alternative which works almost as good then I?ll use that instead.

But what does really shit me is when people apply this kind of logic to things like music and computer games. CD's and computer games are targeted to the general public, not big commercial companies. Their not a tool that could make you money and in turn they cost only a fraction of the price that something like the full commercial version of Photoshop does.

I have the upmost respect for my favourite artists and game developers and I cherish the fact that I support them. If I don't how the hell could I ever expect to be taken seriously as an artist myself.

How would you feel if you pored your heart and soul into making music, you made it your life's passion and then someone says "I shouldn't have to pay for the privilege of experiencing your life's long work!".

Why shouldn't you? What gives you the right to say that? Say that you can hear it on a radio station are is all well and good but that station pays for the music and you can only hear what the station chooses to play. Furthermore, if it weren?t for radio, many many musicians would go unnoticed.

Insider - "they aren't losing any money when the cd has "ART" in it..." No, they are loosing money. The musicians get very little from CD sales as it is, the last thing they need are fans like you.

Years ago in Australia being a semi popular band gave you enough to live off. That is if you could get a record contract that would distribute your CD?s throughout the nation. Nowadays, ever the member?s or rather popular bands have to have day jobs because their music just doesn?t bring in the money it used to. Why? Internet piracy.

Oh, and most computer game companies have said that they would reduce the prices of their titles if they sold more copies of them(read, eliminated piracy). It?s estimated that around 33% of people playing computer games play with pirated versions.

Now, a little lesson in how piracy only hurts the industry you love. If there were more people paying, the industry would be more lucrative thus there would be more developers which would = an even wider variety of titles to choose from and they would be cheaper.

</rant voice>

(I was also thinking that this topic would be more at home in the Philosophy section)



[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 06-07-2002).]

I *wish* I could say I've never pirated software. It's wrong, it's against the law, and I think it's silly when people try to justify it.

Let's face it: pirating software makes our lives easier, but that's no excuse for doing it. I don't care if it's a choice between not having it or pirating it. It's still illegal.

For me, buying Photoshop was a choice between not having it or having it illegally. I wouldn't consider, a while ago, buying it for the real price. I did, though. Surprise, surprise, turns out that by not pirating it early on, I eventually *did* spend the money on it. Had I pirated it, Adobe would have lost money.

I was going to say more, but I just now got bored. See ya =)

I've sketched out a few ideas here:
http://faq.ozoneasylum.com/FaqWiki/shownode.php?sortby=rating&id=522

Feel free to throw in any ideas/resources and add in any links - I just threw some thingsin there.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

~Whomever is without sins, throw the first stone~

Personally i think the record companies and software companies steal too. By selling incomplete software and abuse of the copyright laws. There are thrust laws for a good reason...

Artists and musicians should be protected so does their products.
have to go no i come back later.

Powered by Curiousity

*Don't really like posting in these topics, but....*

What I'll always stay with is this:-

Go your own way to learn.
Buy to work.


If you want to learn things then find your own way to require your tools. Weather that be the net the man down the road, etc or join a course, which will teach you the basics of what you want to learn. But if you go down the wrong road, you'll have to live in fear of the piracy poeple to knock on your door asking questions.

If you are making money out of what you use then I think it's only right to buy your way. If you use the tools day in, day out every day why not pay the poeple that make the tools for you? You get paid for what you create so why don't you pay the people who created the tools for you to work?

But more to add to this is that the big companies know that there is a big piracy going on with there gear they sell, but don?t do much about it for home users. Why don?t they do a lot of crack down on home users? Because in the long run your going to work in a company or freelance, which in turn the employers and companies must make there gear all legal because of the pressure the like adobe, etc put on them to make it all legal, with big fines, company shame, etc.

But I do see the points on both sides, but the companies do a lot to help people out by having student discounts, OEM gear, demos (which I think are silly because if you want to get to really understand the software I think you more than 30 days to do it), etc?? so I don?t see the problem of it all. Yes we all like to have the full latest versions of software, but if you don?t have the money then it?s tuff.

Drac: your right about ?piracy only hurts the industry you love? because it does because these companies might one day just pull the plug and development of there products because there making no money out of it. And then what do you work with? PSP?, MS paint?

Look at Maya for one they have released a full version for you to work, called Maya PLE, now if that?s not doing good for it?s learner and users what is? Companies are changing there ways to help, it?s just a matter of waiting for them to change ??.

- DS -

One of my favorite alternatives to paying full price is this little song & dance I learned of from an old client. He would go to used bookstores and look for out-dated user manuals for popular, high-priced programs. Now when you buy an "upgrade" for an application, they want proof of ownership. What do they usually accept? Either a receipt (which most people have lost), or the first page of that old manual! It's legal, and follows all the rules, and you get a legal copy of the newest software for cheap.

Your pal, -doc-

*jaw drops on floor* I never knew that...Thanks, Doc!!!

Boy, now I know what I'm going to be doing on vacation in the states this fall...browsing 2nd hand book stores....hehe...

Jestah .. ok just making sure .. lol

Doc .. splendid idea! .. one that I will practice myself as well now

cEll .::. 513

Woohoo...I've seen a 3DSMAX4 manual at our public library here in Vancouver! w00t!

Thanks DOC!


________________
counterfeitbacon

Breaking news:

Strange epidemic hitting public libraries.
Front covers of software manuals mysteriously disappearing.
Librarians around the world are in shock.

CF:
I just took a good look a your sig.
You should talk to someone.
-SS

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

*/been away in therapy. feel better now./*

i have to be honest. i have used ill gotten programs before. i do appreciate that companies like Adobe need my one purchase to make sure thier development teams can come up with quality programming like Photoshop Elements and Pagemaker (huge ammounts of sarcasm). but it is truly frustrating to look at, let's say, web site design these days and realize that you need not only and image editing solution, but a programming solution, a layout solution, a multimedia solution, an audio editing solution, a hosting solution, a provider solution, marketing, etc, etc, etc,etc.

it seems to me that the web is heading the way of car mechanics. you can't hope to work on a brand new Chevy without buying high dollar machines to read computer codes and lasers to balance and align your tires. back in the day, it was the price of a tool box filled with metal and some gum. where is a new designer supposed to get all that stuff and be able to learn it?

my justification for the use of "free" products is simply this:
you want me to be brand loyal and spend my money with you, then I have to use your stuff sometime.

i do not, however, justify the continued use of products when your stupid a** can afford it. if your making money, buy the products. when i started in design, i used stolen stuff. but i learned and i bought and now i even register shareware and donate for freeware.

what i can't justify is the cost of these programs from the company's side. where the h-double-hockey-sticks does quark get off charging so much for it's program? that is piracy to me but because it is the main layout program, i need it and i buy it. but i'd love to see an industry wide switch to InDesign (as good as Quark) but even that program is fairly costly.

ah well, just my thoughts. take em or leave em.

zero


don't you?!?

[This message has been edited by zro1zro (edited 06-07-2002).]

My moms an attorney, she tells me that it isn't illegal to download, just to post. So if I post a link right here where you can download the full version of ps6 for free, then adobe can sue me. So I don't promote piracy, and definately not posting warez, but downloading it and then later buying it from the expirience and joy with the illegal copy, is like DL said, not harmful...

Hmm, are you sure your mom is up on fair use, copyright, and intelectual property law?

Downloading a version of software without the license purchased to use it IS illegal. Well, to clarify, downloading it isn't illegal...using the downloaded copy is illegal.

Adobe provides a downloadable "tryout" version of their software for learning and research testing. It comes with it's own usage policies, and user agreement. Using that limited version is perfectly legal. However, that doesn't mean that using any version of PS for a "time trial" is legal. Adobe provides those tiral versions for exactly that reason.

I'm not going to debate the "right and wrong" of it. A persons' morality is their own to deal with. But when it comes to the legalities of using pirated software, the law lays it out rather cleanly. Pirated music etc. has its own fish to fry right now.



Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

A friend of mine gave me his copy of studio max 3 as he doesn't use it (is this piracy?) but as for Maya, well I've been wanting to have a look at that for a while and now I have picked up the learning edition which although it is heavily watermarked it is still the full deal so I can learn it for free. much better than paying thousands for it only to realise you cant get on with it.

who knows, one day I may(a) get a job in the computer generated film industry but one thing's for certain, I won't unless I know maya. I think this is definately the way all software companies should go


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

Morph: technically "distribution" or "redistribution" of software is illegal fwiw.

Read the users agreement (license) and you should find words to that effect.

::edit::

another little known or ignored fact is that the license is usually for one installation on one computer, meaning that a single piece of software generally cannot be installed on mulitple puters. Thats why often Companies will purchase 'multiple licenses, which allow the company to buy software for multiple users. Again, usually multiple licences are somewhat discounted in comparison to an individual one.

[This message has been edited by vogonpoet (edited 06-08-2002).]

Morph.

As long as your friend doesn't keep a copy of the software on his computer, and use it, then it's not piracy to take it from him and use it.

Chances are that he has a single user license, which gives him the right to use the program on one machine (or multiple machines if he's the sole user). Single user licenses usually have a bit of leeway in them, but they boil down to that fact.

If he keeps a copy and uses it, with the same serial number etc. then yes it is piracy...of a sort. It's a breech of the user agreement that he digitally signed when he installed the software.

If your friend has more than a single user license (mucho expenso) then he can let you use it if he wants, as long as he adheres to his license agreement (which means you'd probably have to be an employee of him, or his company, using the software for work related projects either on a network or independtly on machines approved for company use).

I agree that learnware is the way to go....great marketing for good software.

VP, so what you are basically saying is that once you buy a piece of software and register it, then legally you're stuck with it for life?


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

Nah.

If you buy the software, insert the serial number (registration is really superfluous, it's just an aside so that the company can track users and give them "perks") and install the software, then that's your one installation.

If you don't use it, and want to sell it, or give it away, then you need to uninstall the software, THEN give the installation disks, serial number etc. to the next person. Once it's gone off your machine, then the "one installation on one machine" deal is open again.

But this seems to conflict with VP's distribution or redistribution theory, so assuming that the guy I got 3dsmax from has uninstalled it, can I safely assume I'm not breaching piracy laws?


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

ooopppsssss...double post...

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 06-08-2002).]

quote:

---

CF:
I just took a good look a your sig.
You should talk to someone.
-SS

---

What's bad...the texture, the blood. Should I get a new way to do metal?