Preserved Topic: Web Designer v. Web Programmer (Page 1 of 1)

Here in Korea, the trend these days is toward specialization (which, as we all know, is for insects). A web designer is now someone who merely designs the web site, while the web programmer does the actual coding. The web designer usually has a background in the visual arts, sometimes a background in print media, etc., while the web programmer is your typical programming geek.

I was wondering how it worked elsewhere. I know a lot of you here create web sites all by yourselves for your clients, but for larger projects is there the same division of duties? Are people hired specifically to design and specifically to program? I had always thought that that wasn't the case, but seeing the trend here I'm wondering if it didn't start somewhere else.




Cell 270

Unfortunatly, here in Germany it's also going in this direction...though it's not yet there...but yeah, I think the 'trend' is in that direction...

If you plan on working for a company, that is...

At my company we have the split you're talking about.

We have some hard core programmers that regard design aspects (and PS!!) as "fluff" and we have some people that focus on design, usability and user experience.

In an ideal world all people would be great generalists, coping with all aspects of the process. Unfortunately that's not the case. In absence of that everything is working out fine the way we do it. All projects are collabrative between the two groups, which also increases cross-competence understanding and learning.

The larger projects consist of several people from the both teams. Mostly fewer designers than programmers, since the designers take on a quality assurance role once the concepts are done.

Myself?
I've been messing around with both enough to understand what's important and what the teams are speaking about. Which makes me an ideal coffee-drinker

I like it this way. I'm better at dealing with the presentation than with the backend. I think it makes more sense... very often, when a programmer-type tries to make a web page, it comes out looking really bad. Or at least not all that appealing. You've seen the type; practically every shareware download page is just very simple. That's because programmers haven't studied aspects of visual art or design, in most cases.

There's definitely a split in the skills necessary for design and programming, so I think it's a good thing that the two jobs are separate.

I had to do this, in the US, for a school project. A kid designed the site, then he coded it poorly using just basic html. I was presented the task of just simply organizing the code, fixing the code that didnt work, and making it go from tables to frames(i didnt ask questions... they paid me).

the kid designed and created the site using imageready... but its somewhat better now even though its frames(EGH! most of the time).

That's interesting. I'm not familiar with anything but small projects, so I wasn't sure how it was on a larger scale. After reading the comments here, I have to say that it might be better off that way. With all the things there are to learn, I guess specialization is inevitable for all but the greatest.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

quote:

---

With all the things there are to learn, I guess specialization is inevitable for all but the greatest.

---

Actually, what that was supposed to mean was, "Only the greatest can excel at multiple skills, so the rest of us are forced to specialize in one way or another."

I do think it is a good idea to learn as much as possible about the areas you are involved in, but I think it is impossible to master every skill you may possess. As a translator, for example, I have to know enough about almost every field imaginable in order to be able to translate a piece on that subject--sort of like a walking abridged encyclopedia. I am obviously not a master in those fields. I do, however, specialize in the meta-art of translation itself. This specialization, in fact, has led to me falling behind in the fields of web design and web programming. That was a choice I made, though--I can only spread myself so thin, and I had to go with my strengths and what I see as my future.

Concerning the specific question of specialization within one field (let's call it "web creation" to avoid confusion), I think similar principles apply, depending on the situation. For small projects, of course, most competent people could handle both web design and web programming. When you start dealing with projects on a larger scale, though, I think specialization is inevitable. The question is, do you specialize to such an extent that you are ignorant of all other areas, or do you dabble in other fields (or sub-fields) as well? On the one hand, having a web programmer who knows a little about design might help things run more smoothly in terms of meshing the two sub-fields. On the other hand, though, they say that a little knowledge can be dangerous. That same web programmer could use that little knowledge to throw a monkey wrench in the project by, say, inserting his/her own conflicting ideas on design.

There is also the issue of stretching yourself too thin. At the risk of confusing those who may not be familiar with D&D (yes, I admit it, I'm a D&D geek, or at least I used to be), allow me to use skills and skill points as an example. As your character grows, you can train in new skills, and you are given a certain amount of skill points per level to "spend" on these skills. Some people choose to spread their points out over a wide variety of skills, while others choose to build up a few select skills. And of course there are people who fall in between those two poles. The point, though, is that you can't master every skill; you have to decide which skills are the most important to you. In real life terms, people have varying amounts of skill points. A lot of the people here apparently have tons of skill points, while I seem to be on the short end. I know it's not as simple as that in real life, but I think it's a good analogy. Because the specific fields we're discussing here are closely connected, it may be possible to master both ends. But you may find yourself stretched a little thin if the project scales up considerably.

I guess, in the end, the scale of the project is really the deciding factor, no?

don't feel bad, suho... I'm at the shallow end of the skill point pool, too..


Code - CGI - links - DHTML - Javascript - Perl - programming - Magic - http://www.twistedport.com
ICQ: 67751342

Well, we can't all be rogues, can we?

Hmmm...that's a dangerous line of thinking, in my book...while it may be true that everyone (well, most everyone...) starts out with little to no skill, those that learn continually through life don't really have to rely on specialization...though many do. As to why, I think it is part laziness and part disinterest.

There was a time when I was 'specialized' in computer hardware...though with the rapid developement of the last 10 years in the hardware area, my 'specialization' became a disadvantage...in that field. These days, I rely more on an even learning curve, in many areas...and that has repeatedly paid off...as one area 'shrinks' (job-wise), I move to another...I think it's called flexibility...

As for Web-Design (creation, programming, call it what you will), specialization is really a cost vs time question...as big buisiness moved into the internet (and design), along with that, came the 'efficient' question...and much to the dismay of the 'true Web-Designers'...because a lot of creativity just flew out the window...we see this, time and again, those 'Mega-websites' that funny enough look all alike...or follow the 'trends' (which amounts to basically the same). Just look at a site from the Doc, for example, and compare that with 'generic brand A' site...you'll see what I mean...

That all happened during the 'internet crash', that only those who actually went through it know...at the time, I was learning design, and the stories hit me like a brick...there used to be a place on the GN where some of these stories were...some were pretty tragic...

But a few presevered through those hard times...and are what we today call 'pioneers in the field'...

Or Dinosuars from the past, depending on how you look at it...

I prefer the first description...though I am not one of them *sigh*

So whether specialization is necessary, is (IMHO) a personal choice...though I am generally against it...be a Circle, and not a Triangle...

It's definately like this at my company. I think that it's something of a right-brain left-brain thing. Though there are definately exceptions (go doc!) I think programming and design are two seperate skils and unfortunately most of us are better at one than the other. (Ever seen most hard core programmers web sites? ugly beasts!)

I actually found this to be kind of a cool thing though. Early on in my career my programming skils (particularly HTML) were pushed trying to make designs work that were designed by folks with no technical skills purely in PS. It ultimately made me a better coder. No doubt many industries have been pushed by the tech's trying to build something that they think could not be done.

The trick in business is having a manager who understands both aspects of the design and build process and understand both side's hurdles.

Really I don't think this is an unfortunate thing since it allows people to excel at their skill set. And no doubt being skilled at both sides of the process makes you that much more valuable.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

I'll agree with the fact that it is much more common to split up GUI-design, GUI-coding, programming and db-design/coding.

Personally I think this stems from the fact that there aren't that many straight HTML/Flash sites ordered from the web-companies any more.
Almost ever customer of size wants his site to offer an administration interface for content providers, or a tie-in to back-end systems or both. This together with an userfirendly visual design.

Quite a logical request seen from a customers point of view I'd say.
Why have to depend on consultants to update text on the web when you could do it yourself and have control over both the presentation and the users? Why transfer information from email to back-end systems when you can pipe it straight in there?

This inevitably leads to specialists in each field at the solution providers, this to be able to produce each layer in the solution in a quick and cost-efficent manner.

This in turn also leads to a more traditional way of producing the solution based on established project models such as Rational Roses model Rational Unified Process, or RUP. Then, when you work a project like this when every one has his/her area, you need someone to keep it all in sync. Enter the project leader.

these usually come in two fashions:
1 - The administrative PL that handles all client contact, time report, the overall project plan and so on together with the sales people.

2 - The technical PL that keeps the developers and designers working together to a common goal, getting estimates, finding problem areas, in short, keep the work rolling according to plan.

Now, where am I going with this rant?
Well, As I see it (and the way I work as a tech pl) is that I definatley need at least a fair knowledge of all the areas that I will encounter during a project. I don't have to be a mentor, solving things for the specialists, but I need to know what is easy/hard and where the pitfalls might be. To me, this means that I have to have worked with these things myself to a degree. It also means that needing to keep track of all these different things, I can't really devote enough energy to be a specialist in any of these fields.

So, yes, we have moved towards specialization quite a lot, and I think it will continue.
How ever, what I demand of "my" people is that they keep up with the ajoining fields to the degree that they understand what is required for the person next in line.

Example:
The GUI designer must know enough HTML to know what he/she can demand of the GUI-coder, the GUI-coder must in turn know what the serverside developer needs to be able to generate the pages dynamically. The serverside developer needs to know how the database coder thinks in order to work with the DB in a smart way and so on.
But above all else, they all need to communicate in order to share the same goal!

Of course you can run a bigger project on few resources, even as a one-man-show, but you need to allow for the fact that it will take longer since you are working linear, not parallell. Plus, you do lack input and feedback from ppl with another view, you can very easily get nearsighted in your work.

/Dan

{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

it's the later for me .. I'm the more designer but I know programing well enough to know what my partner is doing .. he is the more programer but he is skilled in designing as well

I perfer Web Developer .. IMHO it kind of combines both into one

[edit: hehe .. I was thinking she for some reason but she is a he .. thanks for pointing that out]


Click on the Image to go to the Recycling Center .::. cEll .::. 513

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 07-10-2002).]

quote:

---

he is the more programer but she is skilled in designing as well

---

sorry to pollute the thread
but that one's kinda scary i hope it's just a typo...

If you are going to be working for a small company you will have more input on both areas. But you will find yourself being specific to one area. Therefore, knowledge of both is important.

Next lets move onto the bigger companies. You will be an insect here. You will work one thing and get input from your manage and just work the task you are given. Then again it is still important to have a knowledge of the whole thing. How else would you expect to become a project manager. Sure you can be an insect and do that but the more experience you will have.

The way I like to think of it is: Figure out which one you like and put a lot of time into it, but don't forget the other stuff.

I am a hardcore backend coder. Yet I still know how to futz around in PS, and know bits and pieces of design related information. But I don't study usability and design. I study code. I can code in almost any language you throw at me, and that is where my skill is (baring proprietary coding languages). But I can still tell you if the site design is crap and if it doesn't work within the clients aims.

I will never be as good as Twitch at layout and design, or as Weedah with photoshop but I try to approach Mr. Max's ability at coding. Then you have people like the Doc, who just does it all well. I try to take a little of the Doc's philosophy, and apply it towards learning what Twitch and Weedah do, as I spend the majority of my time studying the snippets of godlyness that max sends our way.

That is a bit of a simplification, but is the idea. You can do it ther other way as well. Be a good designer and an apprentice of the code. Pick and choose your own. But try to learn as much of everything as possible.

Trigger: Interesting, I just assumed that RammStein was subconsciously broadcasting the fact that his partner is a hermaphrodite...

I would have to agree with DmS on this, I think. It is definitely a good idea to know something of the fields related to your specialization.

I also have to say that I do not believe it is physically possible to avoid specialization. This all depends on where you draw your boundaries, of course. Is it possible for someone to master both web design and web programming? Yes. But can they master every last skill in the field? Probably not. And, in my opinion, why would you need to do that anyway? If you are a freelancer, a one-person team, you might need to do everything yourself, but in bigger projects you have access to people with a variety of skills--why not use them?

It is possible to be hurt by specialization if you specialize in one area to the exclusion of all others. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here. I think that as long as you know enough about relevant fields, specializaiton is not harmful.

This, of course, really only applies when you are talking about one field. When looking at the range of human knowledge as a whole, everyone is a specialist (at best). So it's all a matter of perspective.

That being said, I think the two sub-fields discussed in the original subject are close enough together that an individual could be proficient in both, but the workload may become too much depending on the scale of the project. But now I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'll stop.

Lets keep with the idea of Specialization is for Insects"

Even so, if you job is to gather some material it is still important to know how the material will be used. Say you need to gather food, it is still important to know how it will be used so that you don't destroy the usable portion or damage the usable portion of the product so that those who take the food from you will still be able to use it.

Take my coding for instance. I could code a database and accessor function so that it spits out the contents of the fields. But if the accessor functions provide the data in the wrong format all my work was for nothing.

The same goes for the design team if they worked on their design and coded the HTML it is very easy for them to say make a navigational section a graphic as opposed to text making it almost worthless for a dynamically driven site.

Both groups need to have the knowledge of how the other functions, so that the work they do is not made pointless.

If I were to make a team I would want something of the following skillsets.

Graphics / Design
XHTML
CSS
Backend Coding
Databases

You could easily fill that by hiring a 5 member team each of people who specialize in each of the skills. You would have an incredible amout of talent, but the job of the manager would be very hard. You would have to lay down the tasks to the letter.

I would rather hire a team as such:

Person 1: Graphics / Design(Expert) + XHTML / CSS
Person 2: Server Side Coder + Databases
Person 3: XHTML + Server Side Coder

This is just a general idea my ideal team would be a bit different since I am not counting the varying skills. But for this reason we have Person 3 who have the knowledge to integrate 1 and 3 knowledge into a workable system. You might not be getting as high a knowledge in all of the areas yet you would have them all covered with a better team working situation.

Normally, you will find that most people have some knowledge of everything. The hardest part to work with is the designer since on average they tend to not have much coding experience. Which can be fine if you pair them up with a good HTML/CSS person who knows a little bit about the serverside.

The other thing you have to think about is that you don't need to know it all. The client side coder needs to keep up with the changing trends and compliances. But the other aspects are pretty static. You don't need to know 18 different serverside languages. You can pick on and run with it, you might change down the line but it is easy to learn new languages. But you pretty much pick a favorite and stay with it.

Right. And I never said that you should have one person for each skill--it never works like that in the real world. I think you misinterpret what I said about specialization. The way I see it specialization does not mean you have to be an idiot savant. As you mentioned, most people will have a little bit of knowledge about a lot of things. But most people have an area where they excel as well. That's the way I see specialization, at least.

I think the problem here is that sayings like, "Specialization is for Insects" and a lot of the things said in this thread so far are a bit simplistic. No one ever specializes in one area to the absolute exclusion of all others, and if you work in a give field for any amount of time you learn at least a little about related sub-fields simply by being around them. However, it is a fact that no one can know everything (and, as WM pointed out, no one needs to know everything). The reality is that there is a limit to what we can learn in one lifetime, and everyone chooses certain fields of knowledge over others.

If we want to get technical, though, , the subject that I started out this thread with was "division of duties," not "specialization." Granted, the thread may have since gravitated toward specialization, but all I really wanted to know was if this same division of duties existed in other countries. I guess I should know better than to ask a bunch of lunatics.