Preserved Topic: your perceptions of typography (Page 1 of 1)

I am currently co-writing a book on web design with an instructor, and he has me working on the typography chapter. Although he is the idea man, I am definitely the writer and it's up to me to add a lot of the interest and flow to the book. The idea of the book is that it is geared towards beginners, and therefore I'm trying to speak to the beginner's mind. For the intro to this chapter, I'm discussing how maybe the reader hasn't thought much about typography up to this point (again, this is assuming the reader is a beginner). While in my own experience, I was surprised at the importance of typography in design, I'm not sure everyone else has the same experience. So if I could get a little assistance from the room, I'd sure appreciate it.

Again, remember that we're talking about beginners in design. This will probably be the typical people who are drawn to web design (people who are artistically inclined, people who love the internet and computers), but may not be experienced in publishing any media at all to this point. Essentially, I'd like you to answer these questions from the point of view of you in your earliest days:

Did you feel typography was important when you first started out? Did you really think about it much at all? (in this sense, I mean both web typography such as your choice of font on a web page, and the cool stuff you can do with type in Photoshop).

Do you now feel that typography is an important design element, as equally important as color and layout?

Thanks for any help that you can provide!

Effective typography is not important in design. It is essential. I never designed anything before taking design classes. And I'd like to add that I hated my typography class in school hehe. From what I've seen on the web, I'd say most people never even thought about the fact that 6 pixel red type on a dark blue background is hard to read. That's just from observing. When I started web design, I already had 4 years of print design experience, so I'm not the best to answer that question I guess.

Readability, in any medium is essential. If you can't communicate the point through words, then the end consumer may (most likely) not get the message and you will be ineffective.

Its funny you know...I took one of those "Web Design Seminars" that lasted three days. I learned how to make image maps and crap like that, but not a single word was spoken about actual design.



[This message has been edited by Jeni (edited 07-26-2002).]

Yea I'm with jeni that typography "is essential" and oddcat you right about that most poeple who design for the web don't think much at all about type, which is wrong and they should learn it as well as basic design.

When I was in a multimedia course when I first left school I thought they would teach all kinds of crap to with the web, design, layout, etc. But no they just teach us how to use software, not the important stuff, like main design elements, colour, type, browsers etc, which I think most web/multimedia course do. That's why I left it and went to do a design, print & publishing course and now I get to learn it all in one, which has made me a better designer (I hope ).

So?

Q1) Nope I didn't, but I do now!!
Q2) Nope not really only when I started doing artwork and started to add did that typography side kicked in.
Q3) Yes typography is important and is equally important as colour and layout, because in the end it's all the elements together that make a great design.


DS

I took a class last semester on Visual Communication, and that's pretty much all the typography knowledge that I have, aside from what I've inferred from looking at professional design. The professor actually had us trace over every letter in two different fonts (chosen from a set of four popular fonts) so that we'd recognize the fonts' features.

So, these are some *extremely* basic tips that I've picked up, mainly on my own:
1. be really careful about color choice. If red on black seems good to you, then you're headed in the wrong direction, to put it lightly. Black on white tends to work pretty well (duh).
2. avoid fancy fonts. I used to use Comic Sans MS for everything; now I realize that that's sort of amateurish. I'm unable to give a full discussion about what fonts are good for large blocks of text, but I believe Verdana and Georgia are decent choices, though verdana is a bit overused. There aren't too many good choices when it comes to the web, if you want it to work for everyone. Arial is an evil poor copy of helvetica and shouldn't be used, according to at least a few people.
3. for web design, don't specify font sizes in points; these are for print and have no real solid association with pixels.

Yeah. Very basic stuff there. That's about all I can offer =)

quote:

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Effective typography is not important in design. It is essential.

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I can't put it better than that. Hell, working with type is an art form in itself.

I didn't pay much attention to type when I first started doing web design. Lucky for me my fiancee was a page designer (print-newspapers and Magazines), and after a few of her critiques about my good design but dull use of type-I finally grew to love working with it.

Do I think its as important as color and layout...damn skippy it is. Your best design will fail quickly if the end user cant read the content or navigate the site. Ive seen alot real cool designs that are unusable because I cant read it.

DS- About art schools and teaching I totally agree with you. I think part of the problem with teaching people type is that the medium isnt considered "sexy" enough by students. That makes it kinda hard to fill the advanced classes. Everybody wants to be a Painter, Photographer or web designer. But a typographer...oh no.

Also when I started working with commercial clients the type reality really kicked in. They can be real picky about logos and type and complete ignore the rest of the design. I spend almost as much time on logo work as I do on actual web design. I dont know if thats a common experience or if just that my clients like my logo stuff.

ditto-what Slime said, except for the fancy fonts thing. You dont have to avoid them, just never as body text(please god no) and not straight "out of the box" they need to be worked a lot in a program like illustrator or freehand. You should also have a reason or the use of the fancy font beyond: "I looks pretty".

-tiki, cell 478

edit - i love type but I cannot type. Is that irony?


[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 07-26-2002).]

my first typoghaphic book was by Robin Williams: The non-designers design book ISBN: 1566091594

I'm sure you have this book as you are writing your own. She did a very good job with her book. My only 'book' advice is to try to say more than any other book has said, or write it better, or in a more user friendly way, or something brand spaken new. Its the only way you can sell the book to those who have a choice between yours and someone elses.

And yes... most people don't know or care about type. Kind of worries me that some of those shmucks are running the world.

Cheers and best of luck.

To add to reitveld's comment:

If I were to choose another design book, I'd buy the book that is the most comprehensive, reader-friendly, and inexpensive. I'm writing a few books myself but none are textbooks. I'm writing a science-fiction book, a children's book, and an exciting technical documentary bonus to the sci-fi novel. I'm much better at writing than I am at computer arts and graphic design, but I find graphic design a lot more rewarding. Sorry, I was ranting...

Odd Cat, I am taking advanced graphic design right now (2 semesters till grad) and managed to NOT take my typography class! It is a class that is only offered during weird times of the day one semester per year. Stupid me, yes! I am still slightly confused about things...terms mostly. I am now wondering how I ever bullshat my way up to this point and would love to get a hold of this thing you are writing.

Thumper- are you saying you're getting a degree in Graphic Design without taking typography?

Yessum! Call it nuts that I have scathed by...but I am graduating next year with [as of now] a 3.8 GPA in BFA with concentration in Graphic Design. I have obviously picked up things along the way, but when it gets down to it I have still to take the class!

Nothing bad towards you Thumper, I mean that.

For fucks sake.
Typography is critical. I don't care what your GPA is, if they give you a degree in design without typography knowledge, I have little hope for the industry.
Edit>Please tell me that photography was a requirement.

[This message has been edited by Jeni (edited 07-27-2002).]

quote:

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My only 'book' advice is to try to say more than any other book has said, or write it better, or in a more user friendly way, or something brand spaken new.

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I'll try to do at least one of those things.

Reitveld, we're looking at a number of books on design, from the best to the worst. As I say, my instructor is the idea man, and these are almost all books that he has already read. The Robin Williams book is in there. He has given me three books on typography alone to use to research this chapter, and those three books are like the 3 bears: One is too hot, one is too cold, and the other is somewhere in between but still really boring. Typography is not considered very sexy, and therefore is looked over a lot, I think. For this reason, I think this chapter runs the risk of being the least read: sure, everyone wants to read about layout and color, but typography? So my goal is to make this chapter really really interesting in both text and visuals. As I've written it, I've made a lot of notes about how the illustrations should look. And overall, my goal in writing it is simplicity, straightforwardness, and interest. I'm trying to keep it as easy to read and as interesting as possible!

That, and I'm trying to relate to the reader, hence this poll. My own early perceptions of typography were incredibly poor; I didn't understand it's importance at all. I read a book on writing for the web, and the author stated that we tend to design a web site and then write the content. Kind of like "here, our site looks great! Now what will we say on it?" Considering that web sites are all about information, that seems pretty backwards, but I think many of us do that (if for no other reason than it never occurred to our clients that they would need to put some content together for us).

Anyway, I felt that this was a general experience that most designers would relate to, and so I wanted to start from there, as in literally start the chapter assuming that the reader (again, this book is for beginners) may not realize the importance of typography. Part of my goal with this chapter is to convince the reader that it is just as important as any other element of design.

My main goal is to keep the whole thing interesting, so that this book is a valuable teaching tool, not a good pillow. I personally prefer to learn in a classroom environment, so I'm my own worst critic with my writing. I write everything asking myself "is this so interesting that I would keep reading it?"

And Thumper (and anyone else who is interested): clearly, I'm not at liberty to release any of my writing until the book is published, mainly because we want it copyrighted before others read it. However, I'll definitely let you all know when it's published. We have set the end of the year as our deadline to be done with the writing, and from there will refine the layout, do lots of proofing and editing, and send it to the publishers. We already have a few publishers interested, and will be sending them the first two chapters when the writing is totally completed, so hopefully by year's end, we may be set with a publisher. That would be nice.

I appreciate everyone's feedback! Thanks, and keep the comments coming if you have more to add!

OK, let me preface my comments by saying that I am in no way a professional web designer. I do not have a degree in graphic design. At best, I could be called an "amateur designer," but I would hesitate to use even that term. I am a tinkerer, and a voracious student. And I love typography.

Yes, I know, that sounds weird. What the heck does that mean, anyway--"I love typography?" Well, let's start out with my love of language. My field of study is literature, and I chose that field because I love words. I love the way they sound, both in English and in other languages. I love how you can "use" words to convey a message, but you may end up saying more or less than you wanted--how words have a life of their own.

I think my love of typography is an extension of my love of language. Just as the spoken word has accents and intonation, so the spoken word as a graphical element has its own intonations. The same words set in a different typeface may end up sending an entirely different message. In a way, the way you present your message is just as important as the message itself--in the end, the manner in which you convey your message is part of the message itself. The two cannot be separated.

So, when I say "I love typography," I mean that I love the way the words look--the actual physical shapes--and the way the words form lines and pages. I love how the different typefaces feel. In other words, I love typography not in an abstract sense, but in a very real, concrete sense. It follows naturally from my love of words.

How does this translate to advice for your book? Well, I obviously think typography is very important. It is probably more important than color, because the message is key, but tyopgraphy and color must be in harmony. As for layout, I think it is difficult to separate typography from layout. Layout refers to the way visual elements are arranged on the page, and text is a visual element, so the two areas overlap.

But what I really want to say is this: love your subject. Research it, study it, contemplate it--but most importantly, learn to love it. If you have a love for words (and, as a writer, you probably do), let that love flow over into typography. If you've never quite thought of it that way before, take the time to look at it in a new light. Then, when you get around to writing about it, your love of the subject will make it come alive to the reader.

All this talk of love may sound a bit corny, but hopefully I've managed to say what I wanted to say.


Cell 270

I love you too Suho.

Drac: ah, I knew I wouldn't be able to escape your keen insight into human nature. You have cut through the mumbo jumbo to expose my hidden message!

In a way, though, I am relieved. No more hiding, no more lies, no more late-night trysts in the shock therapy room... it feels so liberating!