Preserved Topic: what martial art? (Page 1 of 1)

About a month ago, I joined a martial arts gym where they are offering 'kempo' karate. I've been going there three times a week and I feel great and prepared, both physically and mentally.

I visited some gyms offering tae-kwondo, aikido, judo and a few others and from the way the train, there is quite a huge difference to what is being offered at my gym. I mean the some moves are killer moves.
They show you how to break someones neck, break an arm, handle someone with an knife, stick and other nifty techniques , just to mention a few.

I also found out that kempo karate is self defense oriented and not really a competitive sport.

I know a few asylumites have taken some form of martial arts, I would just like to hear your views on the different types being offered out there.

/edit typos/

[This message has been edited by kaboi (edited 03-11-2003).]

Which martial art you study depends entirely on what you want from it.
If you wnat to get in shape, and learn some mental dicsipline, maybe Tai-Chi.
If you want to defend youself in ANY situation, and have the option to retaliate with deadly force, maybe ninjitsu.

There`s a whole world inbetween. I had a great experience wth okinawa-te. I had a bad experience with tae-kwondo.
But i think that was mainly a difference in attitudes held by my instructors and schools.

What I`m trying to say , I guess, is that find the one that teaches you what you want to learn, or you`ll hate it.

Tip: If your instructor is all about breaking bones and ripping ears off, might think about looking around...unless that`s what you`re looking for..

As docilebob mentioned it is probably more important to find the right Sensei than to choose a particular style of martial art. Most people will tend to think that the style they have studied is the "Best", but it is important to remember that there are many paths to any destination.

I have had the privilege of studying Gojuru, a traditional Okinawian style of Karate. It has only 4 belts. It is not terribly flashy but is quite effective .

I guess the breaking of bones kinda put the wrong impression about what we are being taught. Let me clarify that, The techniques taught are enough to prepare someone to handle most violent street scenarios easily and with little harm to one's self. As someone so rightly put it 'most fights last less than 45 seconds'.

There is quite a strict discipline to it, as most of the times I now find myself talking through potentially violent scenarios.

DB, you're right about the instructors bit. Most people I've spoken to about martial art, often have bad experiences with instructors.

I suggest American Kenpo which is different then Kenpo Karate. Here?s a link that describes a little more about it...
http://www.americankenpo.com/belt_requirements.html

Oh I forgot to mention that bit., its actually American Kempo that we are practising.

Resourceful link rooster, thanks.

A Martial Arts style should be very carefully chosen, IMHO. I personally really like (and enjoy) Aikido. It has served me very well (esp. in very tight, constrained places, such as Bars...).

I would highly recommend a defensive style (like Aikido). However, it is really a personal choice. If you wish to learn how to defend yourself, then take a defensive style. If you are interested in beating the living s**t out of people (I wouldn't recommend this, however), then take an offensive style (or if you plan on going to official tournaments, etc).

The before mention advice on choosing the right Sensei is spot on. This is, IMHO, more important than anything else. Also, I would avoid all the schools that 'promise' a fast black belt, etc. Be aware that Martial Arts are a way of life...and not a 3-month training plan. So anybody offering a 'learn Martial Arts fast' type training is ripping you off, and is not a good Sensei.

Learning how to break bones, rip people's ears off, and otherwise really hurt someone is also not what Martial Arts is about. If this is what is being taught, you are in the wrong place, IMHO. Also, irregardless of what you learn in a classroom, this will not make you a 'formidable fighter' on the streets...far from it. Only actual experience will do that...irregardless of whether or not you have learned Martial Arts. I have experienced this time and again, as a bouncer. I especially dislike those who think they can kick anybody's behind, just because they have a black belt...most soon find out, that a 3-month black belt doesn't mean anything, in a real fight, against someone who is trained, and has actual experience.

So try to learn something real, and worthy, and try not to develope an 'attitude'...any Sensei who demands that you become an agressive 'killer-machine', is the wrong Sensei, IMHO. The best type of defense, is learning how to avoid physical conflict altogether (and is a very important point in Ninjitsu). 'Winning the fight before it has begun.'


WebShaman

I studied Kyokushin, which is a Japanese martial art. It was a very "rough" style--no pulled punches or things like that. It was also on the practical side, with less emphasis on fancy techniques and more emphasis on close-quarters fighting. The motto of our school was, "The fist is the soul of Karate." I liked the style, and I feel it was good for me.

db gave the best advice, though--listen to him.

norm: You have to remember, though, that not all teachers are "sensei."

[Edit: and WS, too. Snuck that in there while I was typing...]

[Edit2: And in regards to what WS said... I studied for five years--and I never once used what I learned on anyone outside of the dojo or a tournament. I became very adept at avoiding conflict when possible.]

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 03-11-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 03-11-2003).]

From what I can gather is that , most of these arts instill discipline and conflict avoiding tact.

One thing I'm really getting to like about martial art is that fighting does not always have to involve kicks and punches. There are simple yet effective ways of ending violent encounters, esp in close quarters like WS mentioned.

Thanx.

I really like the replies of DB and WS here, very good advice.

As I was young I was a really bad hothead with absolutley no patience what so ever, the least provocation and I literally saw read and exploded.
(Not very useful, I can tell you that...)

Then I discovered Karate, one might think that it would have been a really bad idea to teach someone like me how to punch and kick effectively... But,

What did it do to me?
Well first and foremost it taught me self control and dicipline!
It also taught me the effect and consequenses of the punches and kicks which gave me an understanding of how fragile a human body really is if treated badly.
It also gave me an understanding of my own strengths and limitations, physically and mentally.

Basically Karate taught me to learn more about myself.

Having trained Shotokhan and Wadoriyo for a number of years I can't agree more with the recommendation to search for the right Sensei.
You on the other hand must find out in your heart why you want to do this in order to get the most out of it.

Good luck!
Dan

{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

You will find all martial arts are about self-defense...that's the basic premise of them, that they be used for defense and never for attack.

Yes Grasshopper...

I haven't tried any martial arts before, but I started training Capoeira a couple of months ago and I'm really enjoying it so far. It is very different from most of the other martial arts mentioned so far. It was 'started' by african slaves in Brazil and is a kind of combination of dance and figthing. The dance part is that while you're 'playing Capoeira' those not playing form a ring around you singing+playing songs and you fight/play to the rythm of the song.




_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"

When I was in Basic training, my instructors deviated from the plan a little bit and started teaching us a variant of Jujitsu... it was really cool how they integrated it into morning PT and taught us that if a fight lasted more than 15 seconds then both lost.. feel it prepared me pretty well..

However, I have heard really good things about Kempo and Akido, so go at it!


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All the really good points have been made so far. You must find a teacher you like that teaches both the mental and the physical diciplines of the martial art. You must also find a martial art that matches your mental and physical strengths. Some people are small and fast and Wingchun might be good for them. I'm 6'3" and not wirey... I can't do most of what they do. I was also very fortunate to study under one of the more experienced sensei in GoJuRyu, which was a good match for me. I've found that AiKiDo is a good all around martial art to learn... it really teaches you how to deal with your energy and the energy of other effectively. I also found that many of the techniques I learned in one style were easily adapted into the other. I can't say that I've ever run into anything good about kenpo, but I attribute that entirely to the teachers, the art itself seems very similar to most styles of karate.

You must be serious about any martial art. The more you put in, the more you get out. I had similar experience to what DmS described. I had a bad temper and often resorted to violence. When I started training in karate (also shotokan, it's a common style in the states I find), not only did I get into great shape physically, but a lot of my mental issues went by the wayside. I had more self control, more mental dicipline, and I found other ways of dealing with my problems. Not to mention, it can be a lot of fun.

When you find the right martial art for you, it will feel right. It becomes a part of who you are, not just something you do.


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

Although I've got a black belt in taekwondo (from one of the 'tough' schools, took me a good twelve years), I can't really recommend taekwondo as it's commonly taught in the US. Go ahead and look at schools, but unless the school is of the chungdokwan style, you might be better off with a more traditionalist art like a karate or kung fu style. (Chungdokwan taekwondo stays fairly close to its karate roots, so it was a good match for me. I probably would have been happy with one of the karate styles as well. And of course I had one of the better teachers -- but every happy student will say that his teacher is the best )

Ahh cant wait to start taking Martial Arts classes....but unfortunatly dont have time...maybe when I will move to college....

Well 8 years I was Olimpic Wrestler which made me real though, peopel in school kinda dont want to screw with me....since I busted one dudes teeth\mouth in first punch a coupe of years ago, he was bleeding like hell and I couldnt believe I did it...since I dont like to fight or hurt people....I guess I didnt know my true strenght...only after an incident :P

IMHO for self defence I think Akido is one of the best Martial Arts, it teaches you how to keep a distance between you and your enemy....now if you want to puch and kick, shotokan Karate is great too...since they also teach you how to strike and keep a distance.....

But heck wrestling in Russia were alot more fun than in USA...
I miss it!

"I know a few asylumites have taken some form of martial arts,
I would just like to hear your views on the different types being
offered out there."

I have trained Tae Kwon do for about 6 years. One thing in
Tae (hand) Kwon (foot) Do (movement) is that it's a contactsport.
As soon as you now the basic kicks you start to spar. Other kinds
of martial arts you must earn a special degree (i.e. third belt).

It's about 80% kicks 20 % punches. Much physics and stretching.
I recommend it over karate. I once took a karate lesson. It was pathetic,
when the trainer said: "Now pick your partner and lie on the floor and
play like kittens" I was out of there...

PT:
Maybe we can take it one on one some day and kick eachothers ass!

I dont like to kicks...hands have more adventage over legs...why?
Because you can see leg comming, but hand is faster than the eye

Osslone now maybe your karate teacher sucked! I have seen some real strong karate fighters

....personally dont like Tea Kwon Do.....IMO

OlssonE: Actually... Tae = "to step," or "foot"; Kwon = "fist"; Do = "way"--as in "The Way of the Foot and Fist"

Sounds like you had a bad teacher for karate. This all goes back to illustrate how important a good teacher is.

Any martial art can be effective if you put enough into it. There isn't any one "best" martial art that trumps all the others. Each martial art has stregths and weaknesses. As I mentioned before, you also have strengths and weaknesses that will match or clash with the style.

Ruski - I wouldn't write off kicking as inferior to punching, they both have their advantages. If you've ever watched one of these WingChun fighers kicking, you know that a kick can move faster than you can react also. Kicks also can have a lot more power behind them and by nature have much more range to them.

Punching and kicking aren't the measure of a martial art either. There are many components. Personally I found that learning how to take a fall or grapling were much more rewarding at times. While martial arts might teach you more effective ways of punching and kicking, any pre-schooler can throw a punch or a kick. Learning to deal with yourself and the energy around you, to me, is a much greater skill that martial arts can teach you.

Something I haven't seen mentioned which I was thinking about earlier. Many martial arts will offer training in weapon use and disarming. These can be particularly fun and interesting once you really get into them. It's something to consider when choosing an art, if you are interested in that. Most traditional martial art styles will teach you weapon use, while most "modern" martial arts will teach you weapon disarming. Not to say that there aren't some of both in each, but the emphasis has shifted over the years. I learned to use weapons (mostly concentrated on Bo) when I was in Gojuryu. We trained more about how to disarm and avoid when I studied Aikido.

Just a side note on history. JeetKunDo and AiKiDo are particularly interesting martial arts to study (I mean like read about) as they were both "invented" in the 20th century and they were both created by interesting people. If you have a chance to read about Bruce Lee (jeetkundo) or Morihei Ueshiba (aikido) I highly recommend it. I've seen some of the older video footage when they were introducing their martial arts styles also (one of the advantages of a recently developed artform) and they are just amazing to watch. Truly masters. Proof that a martial art doesn't have to be thousands of years old to be effective.

$0.02


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

I kinda agree with Ruski on this one. The grappling style martial arts always seemed to be more effective to me (I studied Jujitsu and Judo mostly) However it really depends on why you are learning a martial art. I'd say 70-80% of it is for outside of self defence.

You're going to learn much more about how to stay away from confrontation then how to win in one. Also loads of hand eye coordination and physical conditioning. And honestly when it comes down to a real brawl all the pretty stuff goes right out the freaking window, just look at any of the UFC or Japanese Pride Fighting Championships, these things are never pretty.

I've seen Caopeira Venicruz it looks super cool very athletic art.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

martial arts wow, I've been wanting to join on that but unfortunately I don't.


[This message has been edited by Yannah (edited 03-12-2003).]

MindBender AHHHH I need to talk to you...you sound like you know alot!
if you know anything about wing chun please tell me I have beem dreaming about it !!!

Do states have good schools? is it fun? difficult? bla bla and so on...

Everyone here should read No Nonsense Self Defense. There's some excellent information on avoiding violence, making yourself safer, and what kinds of martial arts to study and how.

If you live in a part of the world where violence can happen around you -- and this includes virtually everyone -- you should read this site. Most of it is applicable even if you have no combat training at all, since it's a matter of recognizing bad situations and avoiding or defusing them. In my years of martial arts training, my master taught us some of these lessons, but not all of them, and never in such detail.

By the way, this particular author de-emphasizes grappling as a self-defense tactic, on quite logical grounds: first, an opponent with a knife (for example) can kill you whether you've got him pinned or not, unless you focus on immobilizing the weapon -- which greatly limits your grappling options. Second, if you're on the ground fighting someone, his friends have absolutely free play to kill you at their leisure. And third, if you're on the ground grappling, you've at least temporarily given up the option of running away -- which is a self-defense technique far more reliable than physical combat.

"What if he doesn't have a knife, or allies?" Then he probably wouldn't be attacking you in the first place, except as part of some drunken bar brawl. In the real world, when a real criminal attacks you with intent to injure or kill, he's not just randomly taking shots to see if he'll win. He'll stack the deck as much as possible before he makes his move. This is why the most important aspect of self-defense is planning and avoidance; which is why you should read the above web site.

A few things to note - though I really like Capoeira, be aware that it is a dangerous Art to learn, for men. This is because as a man gets older, his lower vertabrae 'fuse' together...and Capoeira uses the lower back alot...which can result in lower back problems, for middle-age men and older. Also, Tai Kick Boxing, while murderously effective, is also very destructive to the body, especially the shins...most profi kick-boxers have an average career of 4 years...then the joints and the shins are mostly shot.

Though I am somewhat biased (who isn't, when it comes to Martial Arts...hehe), Aikido is really a nice Art to learn...it is one of the few, that teaches how much force to use on your opponent...and this is important, especially considering the legal aspects of fighting...from simple defense, to disarming/incapacitating, to breaking bones, dislocating joints, to death...everything is in there. The point being, that Aikido gives you, the defender, the choice, of what you wish to do (as long as you hold control in the fight, that is...control is a major issue with Aikido). Lose control, and Aikido is worthless, as I can atest to (though it happens seldom, it can happen...I lost the control against a Russian Kick-boxer...ouch!).

As for multiple opponents, this is a tough one. Though Aikido can be used against multiple opponents, it really is not that effective as some other Art forms for this kind of fighting, I've found out. This is because (IMHO) of the control factor. It is very hard to maintain control of 2+ opponents...

As for greco-roman style wrestling, I really enjoyed it (had it in High School). It has its uses...as does Boxing (love Boxing). Wouldn't ever use them in a real fight, though. Maybe a few techniques learned from the two, but nothing really serious. This is because the two Arts are very limited, and depend on your opponent(s) matching the Art...which never happens in a real fight.

Ninjitsu is a very nice Art to learn...but takes forever to actually Master. I especially like the non-combat techniques that it teaches i.e. how to avoid a fight. For someone like me, this is very important.

Capoeira might be bad for the lower back if you don't do it correctly, as it is with most physical activites. After training some time the muscles in the lower back will also get a lot stronger so that won't be a problem. Saying that Capoeria is dangerous to learn doesn't seem right. There is a lot of moves that are dangerous (in that they might stretch your muscles way to much), but if you begin slowly and gradually adjust your body to it I doubt there will be any more problems that with any other martial art...



_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"

WS Greco Roman wrestling rules man! I am a.....I mean I used to be a champo couple of years ago.....the great thing about olimpic wrestling is that you really gonna get strong! all your body muscles are used in practice...I personally think its best to start out at young age......hmm I love aikido but I have doubts about it...I really would like to know how effective it is

[edit]Ohh and it seems no one had metioned Russian martial arts? and sambo[/edit]

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-12-2003).]

Well, all I know about sambo comes from playing Zangief and Blue Mary in fighting games. I figured that wasn't really the most educated viewpoint.

No man sambo isnt what Zangief does....Zangief is a wrestler....sambo is more like Judo and Ju-jitsu....but its more focused on throuths unlike ju-jitsu mostly submisions and unlike Judo they dont like to grab cloth ....it has alot of wrestling throughs and sabmisions, kinda dangerouse alot of disarms like defence against knife and stuff....by the way Russian martials arts used sambo for most of their grabs alos has alot of boxin punches and karate punches...in other worlds Russian martial arts has mix of most useful techiques from many combat sports and its used by Spetznas [russian special force]

if anyone of you have played dead or Alive 2 or 3 there is a character Leon, he is the one who uses RMA....well its still just a game

Ah, okay... Capcom must have listed Z's style as "sambo" just because he's Russian. Blue Mary's style, which has a lot of joint-locks and counter-moves, sounds much more like the real thing. Now I know!

Well V, that is true for most sports, really. But in the case of Capoeira, where a lot of the moves are reliant on the lower back, this does cause problems for middle aged men and older...because of the fusing of the lower vertabrae. You can research this, if you wish...I learned this in Paris, actually, where Capoeira is large in coming, talking to some of the practitioners of the style. There was one guy there, who is a Doctor, in his 30s, and that is what he said...I would hope he knows what he is talking about.

And yes, I've heard of Sambo, but have never tried it, myself.

Hmmm...Ruski, if you are interested in Aikido, then check out a few films from Steven Seagal...though there are better sources for Aikido, you can at least see it in action in those films...as I said, it's about remaining in control. As long as one maintains control, Aikido is impossible to beat. Also, be aware that Aikido is actually divided into different schools, as well...and is actually based on a very old style, of Bone Aikido, which is much more agressive, and involves techniques for breaking the bones of an opponent. As far as I know, this style seems to have 'died out'...but there may be practitioners of the Art still, in Japan (which would mean that no foreigners are being taught, which holds with most Japanese traditions).

ruski ? I couldn't really tell you anything useful about wingchun. I've sparred against some wingchun people before, and I've studied it academically, but I've never really tried it.

WS ? You'd be hard pressed to find anything relating to "older" styles of aikido. Uishiba really reinvented and invented when he started training aikido. So the aikido that is commonly thought of and is taught is based entirely on his teachings. You do make some good points about control. Aikido does place a LOT of emphasis on control... which is maybe why it has a steep learning curve compared to "hard styles". I really enjoyed aikido, but I found very little from a fighting standpoint that was useful (I never studied long enough to get good). What I started getting immediately from aikido was a greater self-awareness. I found it much easier to deal with my own energy and redirect the energy around me. This is one of the reasons I think that it mesched so nicely with gojuryu. I was able to take the mental aspects of aikido and mix them with the physical aspects of gojuryu. IMHO it made a good combination.

Learning to avoid conflict really is the best option if possible. The more you learn to fight, the easier it is to avoid fighting.

$0.02


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

I trained Kendo for a short while which was great fun.
(However I dropped out, since I wasn't ready to invest 100US$ for equipment before I was sure I would continue training it. The stuff you could borrow was not really in size for a guy at 190 cm and the build of a grizzly..)

It's not a very useful as self defence, unless perhaps if you carry a cane or an umbrella at all times

For the first term we had no sparring, but just learning moves and such, but when we started doing "keiko" it was really quite straining. What I remember most is that I got bashed by our sensei since I kept doing StarWars-style blockings instead of the correct ones

I'd recommend it to anyone who likes the old Samurai swordfights (and has a lesser Darth Vader complex than I do)

I'm thinking about trying Iaido or Jodo this fall though.



[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 03-13-2003).]

quote:

---

Aikido was created in the 1920s by Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969). He took the brutal bone-crunching techniques of juijitsu, the head slicing strokes of Yagyu ryu kenjutsu, and other deadly arts from the samurai and transformed them into gentle, nonviolent ways of resolving conflict. Aikido is a balance of martial arts and spirituality, and Morihei Ueshiba wasn't only a teacher of technique but was a spiritual master, a "Buddha" for many. Furthermore at the age of 84 years he was still "dancing" his Aikido, flying and yet perfectly grounded.

--Bodywork & Somatic Therapies

---

Just got to love that...hehe.

I agree that the learning curve is...steep. But worth it, IMHO.

WS ? Don't misinterpret my use of the words "steep learning curve". Often what is most rewarding is hardest to accomplish. I found aikido a very rewarding experience, as I did with gojuryu. I tried MANY different martial arts, I talk about those two because I stuck with them, enjoyed them, and found them rewarding. I wish I had more time and money so I could pursue training now, but it's not in the cards for me at the moment.

PT ? very good link, I vagualy remember hearing about tha site before. I suggest that EVERYONE in this thread read the information on that site. The discussions about mentality of the attacker and mentality of the criminal are very pertinent. Read the section about knife fights, criminal behavior, and about avoiding rape. The author has some very profound, and VERY true and estute observations about reality and how it differs from what you are acustomed to.

Those of you who are intersted in martial arts as a sport, it's a good read, but sports aren't what he's talking about. Those of you that think (like I did when I was just starting out) that learning martial arts will train you for every situation, think again. The realities of self defense are primal, brutal, and savage. It's hard to imagine the kind of life you'd have to lead to be able to make some of the observations he makes or to talk about the situations he talks about. I truley hope that no one here will ever have to know what he's talking about, and to those of you who do, there is nothing I can say that can put me equal to your level.

I'll shut up before I get the topic kicked over to phillosophy.


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

I wouldn't mind doing martial arts, only I can't afford it.

I have a black belt in Ishinryu Karate, and have studied Jiu Jitsu (where I broke my tailbone), Ninjitsu, and Aikido. Plus, I teach a lot of Defensive Tactics stuff as part of my job. A good mix is always the best. Take the best pieces of each.

I studied WingChun for many myself, i find it has many benefits against many styles especially those such as Tae kwon do etc... I have also heard of many cases of people ending up with many back problems later in life from taekwondo, so if you are considering taking it up you might want to look into that first.

As someone said punching being faster than kicking, this is true for alot, taekwon do when they are doing their fancy spining kicks, you would have them on the floor before they got half way through one since they are so obvious. Having said that there are some very fast people out there, but you really need to compare apples with apples. Wing Chun particulary has good kicks tho, following the straight line principle of Wing Chun. Never dismiss the use of your kicks and legs, i've found alot of styles have trouble against WingChun because of our stance, and having the ability to kick and lock legs so the oponent cant kick is a great advantage.

In addition to this i've also done some Choi Li Fat (sp?), which is alot like Hun Gar, swinging arms and that sort of thing, these styles ive found are very powerful and great fun to learn too - these guys train with heavy weights bashing them against things, and even if you have a good gaurd up they with go straight through it most of the time. I have also studied some Lung Yin (dragon shape) and Luk Hup Ba Fa which is similiar to Tai Chi in some ways but seems to be quite rare. I studied Tai Chi for a short period also but found it wasnt for me at this stage.

Personally i find it very advantageous to learn many styles and how they work, when your up against an opponent, know even a little of their style can be a great advantage. I've been in a few tournaments all open style which was great, and its good to see how other styles do against eachother. I'm also taking up boxing in a few weeks which should be interesting, just have to remember to try not to kick them hehe.

I agree, study of many styles will give you a much more well rounded understanding of movement and energy. That said...

My aikido sensei put it very succinctly one day when some new students arrived in class and were asking about styles and strengths.

"Can I subdue or defeat most of you in a direct attack or a fight? Yes. But even the most unskilled person could jump out of an alley and kill me with a brick to the back of the head, do not assume that knowing martial arts solely will protect your from danger."

Martial arts are fun, great exercise, and do give you some advantages in a fight. But someone who is intent on causing you physical harm will more than likely do so if you get caught up in trying to fight them. That is assuming they didn't follow you home after a bar fight with a gun.


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...