Preserved Topic: The Matrix Revolutions with spoilers and rant

Well I just got back from the simultaneous woldwide showing of revolutions and in retrospect I wish I had brought tic-tac's. Picture nearly the same crowd you would get at a midnight movie but sober and partially awake. I was particularly fond of all the skinny little 'neo' knockoffs running around in trenchcoats, I heard one of them bragging loudly about how he had his trenchcoat professionally tailored so that nobody else would have one just like his, what a way to stake out your individuality. I am proud to say I successfully resisted my urge to kick him.

I got a good seat right in the middle and with my triple expresso in hand, cell phone off, nicorette gum in mouth, ahhhh... The movie starts, cheering, applause...did I mention that it was at 7am? During this cheering I discovered that several individuals behind me had failed to brush their teeth as toxic waves of halitosis washed over me. Not the most plesant start to a movie. In retrospect it was clearly an omen.

Ok the movie, I was one of the many who was not amused by the last movie and now that I have seen the third I know why, 2 and 3 should have been one movie. 2 introduced way too many new characters and concepts to ever even attempt to explain itself, and it never really did. The two together make a slightly more coherent movie, just slightly.

III, 3, three, threeeeeeee, again and again the trininty concept is introduced with all the subtlety of a boot to the face, the overuse of religious/freudian symbolism gets tired... "....Follow those three pipes"
Neo - superego, Machine - ego, Agent Smith - Id
Trinity,(implied in the name of course) neo, morpheus...one could write a dissertation on this collective tripe.

Was that my imagination or was them getting out of the rain and fighting inside almost exactly the same as the dojo scene with morpheus in 1?

Was the pillar scene in the club way too similar to the lobby scene in 1?

Another club, freaks in latex instead of freaks in leather...ok yet another knockoff.

The train station could have been much more interesting. Was the trainmaster the same guy from The Road Warrior who had the helicopter?

Can everyone point guns at everyone else while they deliver their lines please? I love John Woo and I am glad to see I am not the only one.

Flying and fabric fx...smith and neo flying, I cant say the CG crew gets a pat on the back for this one, both the smith and neo models have a lot of issues with fluidity and motion. Watch neo's jacket during the flight/fight scenes, clearly CG gone bad. The mechanicals looked good for the battles and the flow and physics of the sentinels was great. It was almost like it was two seperate CG stuidos handling the movie.

Rain, glass, sparks, bullets, shell casings, concussion waves....someone, somewhere has a serious fetish for particle FX.

The score, I loved the score for 1, was unimpressed with the score for 2 but this score. Score should be subtle, it should add atmosphere, it should be background, it should not make you cringe as the vocals sweep up. How many times can O'Fortuna be ripped and integrated into the soundtrack of yet another movie?

Ok so the end happens, (really, I beleive that is the most appropriate word) and from my position I saw about 30% of my fellow geeks packed into the theater flip their hands up and shrug as we collectively gave the universal sign for WTF. As the house lights came up I could almost see all the little neo-phytes struggling to justify the movie to themselves as they shuffled off to the door. The sense of disappointment in the air seemed to be quite palatable as we moved down the hall of people anxiously lined up for the next showing.

The question again, What is the matrix now? Is it just a place for those who choose to stay in that reality and programs that have no purpose? I waited three movies and several years to have it end like that? Did they spend two movies bludgeoning you with all this symbolism to short sheet you at the end? I dont mind walking away with a few questions but that was extremely unsatisfying.

One delightful highpoint is that they did manage to work in Persephone (actress, Monica Bellucci) wife of The Merovingian, yummy. If I had known the rest of the movie would turn out the way it did I would have walked after the last scene she was in.

AOL Time Warner, acting through Warner Brothers saw The Matrix as the cash cow it is and poured money into the idea and twisted it beyond all recognition. The first movie was completed prior to the AOL/TWX merger and I think that the money and attention focused on the last two post-merger movies had to have some impact on the creative elements of the final product. At least I tell myself that so I dont skip the next project the brothers put out because of the bad taste this one left.

They should have stopped at The Matrix, (maybe the animatrix, some of it was enjoyable and the online comics were great). I loved the mythos that was created by the first one and conceptually I love the idea of The Matrix but I walked out of the theater with a sick sensation as one word rattled around in my head....Say it with me...Sequel, sadly something similar will certainly follow in The Matrix Franchise.



[This message has been edited by moaiz (edited 11-05-2003).]

interesting, statement you got here, moaiz. i am going to watch the movie on friday
so, you say the end is quite disappointing? well....it also was in reloaded

The end was just not satisfying after the premise and backstory they set up. One could argue that the whole thing has been sloppy storytelling thats simply fx driven. The first movie set a trend by creating real time fx that were replicating visually what had been going on in kung fu/anime films for years. Those FX were driven by a fairly dark yet traditional anime/manga themed storyline and the best that came out of all that was Revolutions? Thirty minutes of cowboy bebop are more enticing than the entirety of Revolutions and I love CG. In the matrix the visual quality stayed at relatively the same level throughout the series I think even die hard fans can't help see the fraying edges of the cheap storyline. If I really need to subject myself to a FX driven movie I would rather see the stuff the guys at ILM crank out. After the nap and some reflection I can comfortably say that the character animation for Revolutions flat out sucked.

More Matrix questions:

What if everyone wants out at once? Well that would be an unplesant time for the machines, (sequel?).
Ok so will the peace hold? Not if they want more dvd/game/movie sales out of franchise.
Did they shove the 'trinity' suppository up far enough? Well lets see, he ¿dies? Then floating there held aloft in wires neo is lowered into some psuedo jesus christ pose....weak.
Did neo live? Well he was carried off atop a chariotlike machine that we last see as warm angelic glow... Humm, would that be like Elijah? Will neo someday return or be resurrected/rescued if the peace should fail?
Why not solar energy? The power supply for the machine city was initially solar. If its possible that a craft designed and developed by machines, the hovercraft, can breach the clouds why cant the vast armies of machines run some solar panels up there? It must be easier to fight a war to subjugate a sentient species with regular 100 year program cycle which results in the death of a quarter of a million of machines. Seems like a waste of resources and a bad return on investment from a logical point of view. I am all for suspension of disbelief to enjoy a movie but really, THEY CAN REACH SUNLIGHT, come on.

This cant be the end. They felt the need to mess with the terminator again some 15 years after the first one and you think this is the end of The Matrix?





[This message has been edited by moaiz (edited 11-06-2003).]

Loved the film, loved the ending...

I found the ending to be most appropriate.

Moaiz......so how did u want the end to be?

~Will watch the Movie on Saturday~

~Sig coming soon~

I paid $9.25 for my ticket. Caravaned with seven friends to Houston and back (90 miles each way). I'd do it again in a second. Movie was great. Ending was as perfect as it could have been.

Can't wait for the DVD.




It's pronounced "Spikes!"

I absolutely loved the movie. I thought the action sequences were excellent and the progression of Neo's understanding to be rather refreshing. Rather thenbeing the confused bumpkin, he actually had a clue this time.

I want to play the game now to find out how Niobe and her crew got to where they were.

quote:

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The question again, What is the matrix now? Is it just a place for those who choose to stay in that reality and programs that have no purpose?

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It is what it was, only now there is a choice. There are humans who WANT to stay in the matrix and the machines still need humans to continue their quality of life. You assume (at least I think so) that the Oracle's question pertained to only humans. It could pertain to those programs that don't want to be involved in the matrix beyond living there. Perhaps it is a deeper ending than you wanted. Maybe you wanted to be spoon fed the answer. Personally, I like having to think about it.

quote:

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Maybe you wanted to be spoon fed the answer. Personally, I like having to think about it.

---

I couldn't have said that better myself .

While watching Revolutions I picked up things from the first two that I never would have guessed.

For example, when that little girl (hatti I think?) was making cookies with the oracle (which was obviously portrayed by a different actress, why?) I remembered the scene in the first movie where Neo first met the oracle. Then it all made sense! She looked down Neo's throat, told him he wasn't the one, gave him the cookie, and then said "Maybe in your next life but not this one." Then in Reloaded, she mentions that nearly everything had a purpose, every program was written for a purpose, including the guy that wrote the program for the pie, the pie being a program for something. Then it hit me! When the architect was speaking to Neo he said that "The One" was a systematic program that is an inevitable result to zion's destruction (or something like that). So The Oracle wrote the program called "The One," which she put into a cookie, and gave to neo. Neo was then killed by the agents, BUT THEN, the program restarted him, with the abilities of The One. And all this time The Oracle knew what she was doing.

So that little girl that was making cookies with The Oracle was to become the next Oracle. But who were those cookies for?

I also figured out how Neo was able to stop the Sentinels(sp?) with his mind in the real world. When he spoke with the architect, his program that the oracle wrote for him was re-written by the Key Master so he could speak with the architect. And then the Architect added some more scripting to The One's program which stayed in the inputs in the back of Neo's head in the real world. The oracle told him he had to return to "The Source." And instead of returning to "The Source," when he was with the architect, Neo chose to save trinity. So when his script was re-written to speak to the architect, it was also re-written so he could go to "the source." And since he didn't, when he returned to the real world, his program still had that change of script which was..... BUM BUM BUM, the source code to all of the Machines. You see, the Machines created the program Architect, to create The Matrix, so that the Machines could live off of the humans. So the Architect obviously knew the source code to the machines since the machines created him to create the matrix. With the source code to the machines, it was like him being a giant remote to all of the sentinels. And when he closed his eyes (or had them burned off), he could see what the machines saw. Raw code.

I also thought that the "karma is just a word, like love" scene was pretty damn deep.

There were also a lot of Yin Yang standards in the two sequals. For example, The Architect wears white, but he's bad, where as Neo where's black but he's good. Also, the humans rely on machines to kill machines. The machines rely on humans (the ones in the matrix) to kill the humans. So in the second movie when the senator or whatever took Neo down to the end of Zion and showed him the construction feilds and said "Machines need us, and we need Machines," that was forshadowing the big battle in Revolutions.

I want to say more but I have to go right now...


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

The actress who played the original oracle died, that's why there was a diferent actress playing the Oracle in Revolutions.

I personally like having to think...I found the ending to be brilliant!

insider: ahhhhhhhhh thx for that. that made things much clearer!

WS: But I thought that they filmed Reloaded and Revolutions at the same time, is this not true? If they did, they would have accomplished Revolutions at the same pace and time so they wouldn't have needed hire a new actress, unless the lady that played the original oracle died while filming.

Insider: Some good observations there. I disagree with some points though.

I think your idea about Neo's reprogrammings is an interesting and possible explanation for much of what happened. The quote about the next life is:

Oracle: You've got the stuff kid, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: Waiting for what?
Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows?

That had never clicked before and I thank you for pointing it out. But here are some other things to consider in that regard. First, the Key Maker (not master ) didn't have to necessarily reprogram Neo for him to speak to the Architect. The Architect is a program just like all other programs in the Matrix. The Key Makers job was to open up the way to the Architect. i.e. A back door or perhaps the ONLY door. Second, why would the Architect reprogram Neo to be able to return to the source (in your theory) BEFORE Neo made the choice to do so? He clearly knew that the choice was there because he presented it to Neo. Finally, while inside the Matrix, Neo clearly could see things in pure code, in the real world not even the machines were made of pure code and what we saw (the yellow stuff) didn't resemble code at all. My impression was that Neo was somehow (I don't claim to know why) able to sense energy. Electric, kinetic (you see this while he is walking), heat, and so on. Where this perhaps falls apart is that he couldn't find Trinity when she was dying. Maybe there was too much other energy around for him to make sense of it just yet or something.

If you like the discussion about words you should read Plato's Meno you might like it.

The actress who played the oracle did indeed die during filming and thus they had to rewrite the script for a new actress. Would anyone care to explain the short explanation the oracle gives for her "change"?



It's pronounced "Spikes!"

I don't quite remember the words said in the movie but the gist of it that I got was that she narrowly escaped the Smith. She had to port her program to a new HD basically. In other words, imprint herself on a new human. Remember how her gaurdian looked to Neo? She never appeared that way to him... at least that they showed. She was adept at hiding. That's my theory anyway. The Smith took certain pleasure in her need to change shells.

I also liked the scene in the train station. I thought that was pretty cool. Yes the Trainman is the guy from Road Warrior: Beyond Thunderdome.

I think the trainstation was exactly the way it should have been. Nothing special so it didn't attract attention. It was the Merovingian's backdoor. Why put up a flashing Neon sign? It was made to be hidden. Remember it's a lightweight matrix construct not unlike the loading program the humans use to hack into the matrix. It's a small file and easy to miss. Why make some bulky overweight heavily coded structure for a simple password protected backdoor? Hell, Neo was probably the biggest piece of code to move through there.


Your yin/yang comment is spot on, InSiDeR. Did anybody else but me notice the Oracle's earrings? Take a look next time you see the movie. Not to mention that the entire matrix is a chess game for the Architect and the Oracle. Maybe Othello is a better analogy. It is a very interesting thing to think about. Maybe the Oracle had less interest in helping then humans than she did in not being bored anymore. Tired of the same old game, she wanted to change the board, make new rules.


[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 11-06-2003).]

interesting stuff guys. saw revolutions yesterday afternoon and enjoyed it (definitely had a frenetic pace to it tho). this one does take up right where the last left off, and while it was entertaining i haven't decided if it answered everything we needed to know or not. the attack on zion sequence was amazing, the scale of those shots was incredible. i'll prob be checking it out again tomorrow night to see what i missed the first time around.

interesting points raised in here, i'm gonna have to re-read all this tomorrow before i go. and GD, you dedinitely need to play the game, fills in a lot of cool stuff about niobe and ghost and what actually happened with them and with bane.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

also, a random thought, anyone else have the thought that the ambassador/senator was the One that preceded neo? i had this thought with reloaded, then it was reinforced when the kid (whose name escapes me, the one who was annoying neo in the last film) runs into zion yelling "its over!" and the ambassador has a very confused look on his face.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

I would think not. If he was the last "one" that would mean the last time Zion was destroyed was only 70 years ago or so. It would take a group of 21 people (13 female, 7 male, and current "one") much much longer to rebuild that city and have that many people to populate it. I think the last "one" was probably more like a couple hundred years ago. Morpheus says "for over one hundred years we have fought this war" but that doesn't necessarily mean that the civilization just began one hundred years ago.

Gonna have to think about this one some more.

Actually fig I think that when zion is destroyed its a complete re-boot. I dont think anyone carries over but I like the idea that it could be a conspiracy with the machines.

I liked the kid, that was my favorite sequence of the animatrix. I wished I had seen the animatrix and played the game before viewing reloaded since the events in the two lend so heavily to the start of reloaded, (the animatrix contains a sequence called final flight of the osiris which has a the tape drop which leads into the game, the game ends at the start of reloaded with nairobi ). I really liked how they transitioned into reloaded with the two other mediums. It was a very intelligent transition which was admittedly lost on the bulk of the moviegoing public. They didnt make that same mistake for revolutions.

The train station and all the events surrounding it seemed too circular. ok, he ends up at the train station you know that no matter what neo will get out of the train station.

Neo chats it up, (enter blissfully enlightening moment with a program where he learns that machines too love :'( ) realizes he is stuck...at any point is there any possibilty he wont get out? Nope, you know he's getting out, its just about the how. Ok, the visual station. Well it draws to mind the fight scene with agent smith, coincidental reminder or intentional bludgenoning? Anyway, the station is a conduit between the machine world and the matrix. Being that the little wooden boy is that close to the source and in-between worlds you would think that if anywhere neo's flashes of scenes to come would be stronger there than in the matrix or in zion, especially since at that point he is disconnected from his body existing purely as 'the one'.

Ok so back to trinity and morpheus, they go in to get neo out, (surprising ~gasp~ ) Them getting him out is a foregone conclusion, you know that no matter what Neo is getting out...

So what was the purpose of the scene? To introduce a new actress in the part of the oracle? To see seraph kick ass? To see another pillared lobby/elevator scene? To watch trinity do that same bullshit kick 3x harder than she ever did before? To see the same damn club scene? To do the whole 'dialouge with guns' bit? To see trinity do her silly little tumble as they stop motion a gun overhead? Even when the Frenchman gives the absurd demand for the eyes of the oracle you know know....no matter what, neo is getting out. Then cut from Trinity's gun to the Frenchman's head to >>> tonsil hockey in the train station...ok, nothing wrong with that....fluid, seamless.

Ok, what was the purpose of the scene? In my humble opinion, they took all the key 'wow' moments that the average dullard would remember from the 2 previous movies, (or any Matrix movie/DVD trailer you had seen) and then pantomimed you through it.

Having James Earl Jones voiceover the background story to a 30 minute combined fight sequence from the prior works would have been slightly less obvious.

Another question. After the death of Smith inside the matrix the only inhabitants you see are programs. If smith 'conquered' the matrix and smith was destroyed then the machines agreed to peace while having zero living power plants plugged in? Did all the inhabitants of the matrix die? If they did then the war and the batteries become even more important at that point...why stop?

Bane, did they really have to name the one person outside of the matrix infected with Agent Smith such a blatant name. I guess with the average american having a working vocabulary of 800 words naming a "bad guy" Bane might just be considered sublime.

I just dont see how the intelligence and uniqueness of initial Matrix concept could have been so dumbed down...




[This message has been edited by moaiz (edited 11-07-2003).]

[Note: I was kind of surprised to see people reading this thread who haven't seen the movie yet. I know this is a spoilers thread, but here's another warning: spoiler ahead.]

At the risk of sounding like one of the sheep moaiz despises so much, I think the movie ended the only way it could have. When Neo asks the new and improved Oracle who Smith is, she says (paraphrasing), "He's you, just the negative version." When I heard that I knew how the movie was going to end. Neo is 1, Smith is -1, and together they make 0. So while it may have felt like a bit of a let-down emotionally (especially after the intensity of the Zion scenes), I don't see how they could have ended it any other way.

Those are some interesting theories you all have, especially InSiDeR. I never really thought about that, but then again I must admit that I never really thought too hard about the Matrix. Yeah, I'll come clean: I watched the Matrix movies because they were fun to watch, and I didn't worry myself too much about the philosophy. Maybe that makes me one of the mindless masses, I don't know.

I will say that I'm rather annoyed that I'm supposed to buy and play a computer game to find out what happened between movies. That part always kind of pissed me off, to be honest. Not seriously pissed off, of course--after all, it's just a movie. At the end of the day, if I can say I had fun watching it, then that's good enough for me.

Although my wife and I do agree that the first one was the best of the bunch.


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

The underlying concept of choice is similar to all belief systems. You live, you choose, you die, you get written into a sequel, the Karmic circle. I enjoy driving fast on curvy roads, I like not knowing whats around the corner until I drop down a hill and hit the apex of the curve. Revolutions did not provide me with any uncertainty, no curves, no changes in elevation. It was just laid out in a straight line ascent with lots of simple billboards with large letters to tell me what was ahead. And while I do despise the sheep, (unless they are arranged in a rack and baked with a nice rub) I didnt actually call anyone out. I dont see anything wrong with liking the movie at all. It was a nice piece of eye-candy with nearly all the requisite elements. I personally find that I had higher expectations for it that I certainly did not realize before hand. Maybe in time I too can enjoy it for what it is and not what I hoped it could have been.

quote:

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Although my wife and I do agree that the first one was the best of the bunch.

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What I don't understand is how people can judge those three movies individually. I look at them as one big movie, just as I do with LOTR because they're one right after another, picking up from there the other left off. The only reason they didn't make the three movies one big movie was because no one wants to sit through a movie for 9 hours, same with LOTR.

insider - a valid point, except that the first movie was made to be an entire story, in and of itself.

...and comparing the three movies as one whole story to the first movie as one whole story, i definitely prefer the first movie alone.

reitsma

InSiDeR: Personally, I disagree, but it's really just semantics. Call it one big movie, if you like--I still say I liked the first part better. We have the first part on DVD, but I'm not sure if we'll be getting the others.

Oh, yeah, and what Reitsma said.

[Edit: Hmm... I reread moaiz's last post, and realized that it was in reply to mine. In response: obviously we went into the movie with different expectations. I've been pretty stressed lately, and I was looking forward to an all-out action-fest with lots of cool special effects. I got what I was looking for. You, on the other hand, were looking for something deeper, and you were disappointed. To be honest with you, part of me was hoping that it was going to be a fitting cap to the series in philsophical terms, but as soon as I saw the "billboards" I realized that it just wasn't going to happen--it was, to borrow Smith's favorite word, "inevitable." To save myself from disappointment, I "turned off" that part of me that might have wanted something deeper and just sat back to enjoy the eye candy. I guess you could say that I refused to let myself be disappointed, because I've got enough crap going on right now without having to get pissed off at a movie.

I also enjoy good roast mutton, incidentally.]
___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

MOAIZ, I basicly agree with you on everything I was very disapointed.
ending looks like cheap bible rip off..the whole movie just stuffs your brain with phylosophical bullshit...rather than thinking about yin and yang....I would go with newtons 3rd law, "for every action there is a reaction".

the ending was horible....why, when, what????
so in a sense the whole movie seemed about deleting virus=(smith) from freaking matrix, rebooting it again and sacrificing neo...but what about humans and machine relationship? what will happen? will machines release humans? will they still use them for enegery?

it self the matrix was alot like anime....kind of like evangelion just not that confusing....and the final fight scene with neo and smith looked too much like Dragon Ball bullshit....

well I wouldnt be disapointed if only I knew they would continue it...the disapointment come from knowing that its the last movie for gods sake.
it throws all the 2nd movie questions to the garbage...


yes the first movie was THE BEST.
the reason I judge them seperatly insider is cause, they waited way to long to finnally make a sequal...was like 2 years or something.....and it didnt seem to connect to the first...the whole feel of 2nd and 3rd movie was different, nothing like compared to first..

ohh and yea moaiz, just like you stated I think they overused CG...the first movie used alot better techniques on fx....CG gone bad, everything looked way to obviouse in 2nd and 3rd...I have to say I did liked the robots....but bah =( I hope wackowskis wont screw up anything else.

but then again it something different for Sci-fi so it deserves the credit

Interesting stuff I have found in search of *THE TRUTH*...

Matrix Revolutions - The Mother of all Spoilers
Pointer to the last article
The Architect Transcript
KMC Forums - The OFFICIAL "For those who've seen Revolutions"
Alternate Reality


Code - CGI - links - DHTML - Javascript - Perl - programming - Magic - http://www.twistedport.com
ICQ: 67751342

I'm not going to argue with any of you about the deeper meaning of the movie here. It's like arguing about religion. Moaiz thinks the philosophy of the movie was weak and that it was eye candy. I thought the movie was exactly the opposite. The movie was extremely effective because it makes you think and there are many conclusions that can be drawn. Personally I loved it and it's replaced Star Wars as my favorite sci-fi movie of all time.

But man, I read through that first link that Petskull posted and that guy is off his fucking rocker.

Hopefully I'll be able to score some tickets with Revo comes through the IMAX here in KC.

:::11oh1:::

Ohh and I forgot to mention how much they ripped off Ghost in the Shell....
The whole idea...*gasp*....holy moly...wackowski bros ripped japs big time!
the final fight...Vegeta(smith) vs GOKU(neo)! OMG! what an assholes! rippin rippin and rippin!

edit= Ohh my god its so obviouse, the whole movie is explained from the beggining!
I know everything!
The first most frame of the movie!
0,1

YAY!

BINARY!

Neo and Smith are erros!

NEo is 1 and smith is 0!

the algorithym of a balance equation!

unbalancing the algo; will make the system reboot and kill smith !

thats what the oracle just told neo and smith!

neo dies smith dies

the matrix will reboot

Duh!

and ending sucked soo much! cheap bible rip off!

=)

0110000101110011011100110110100001101111011011000110010101110011

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 11-07-2003).]

Ruski: OK, take a deep breath. I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between "ripping off" somebody and being "heavily influenced" by somebody. This is the nature of art, and the cinema is no exception. Artists borrow from their influences as a way of paying homage to their genius.

Now if they had taken the scene lock, stock and barrel and simply inserted it into the movie, that would be a rip off. As it is, it is a "borrowing." You can argue, if you like, about whether or not the Wachowski brothers did justice to the original, but you cannot call it a rip off. Especially the Bible/Jesus connection. Do you realize how much art in the Western world plays off the Bible? Are you prepared to call every single piece of art that does so a rip-off? I would have thought that, being an artist, you'd understand this.


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

just got back from the cinema
well, i didn't like the movie that much
it was more a sci fi war film than the matrix. what i was wondering about: in matrix 1 humans are fighting against the machines because they enslaved them.
at the end of revolutions, everyone is happy about the "peace"...so and what about the enslaved humans then?

Suho: If originality is the Art of Concealing your sources it appears that as the series progressed the originality became more scarce.

Mas: It seems logical that the peace will fail. Zion is a guerilla culture with some infusion in population from the matrix and some from birth. Now if you take the naked cave rave/spawning ritual as any indicator then its a given that eventually the population of zion will grow to a size where resources become an issue espeically since a natural predator, the agents/sentinels, has been removed from the equation. Will the residents of zion no longer venture into the matrix to free people? If they are caught doing so during peace time what happens, maybe a slap-fight?

Suho if you ever seen "ghost in the shell" you will know what I am talking about "ripping off" A HUGE DEAL of ripping ! you probably have no idea how many ideas/scenes they took from japanese anime....it basicly makes work very unoriginal, and yes I am calm whatever.
I just hate the movie now...kind of stupid and as I said before ending sucks big time IMP.

Mas, you need to watch animatrix! it explains everything...machines always were after peace...unfortunaitly humans are stupid...thats why they destroyed the sky and so on....machines never were power hungry, humans always wanted power! thats why machines build matrix...they could of course simply destroy all the humans, but since humans are their "master" in a way machines are simply protecting themself...as well trying to keep stupid humans "happy" and controlable, probably so that humans wont cause anymore trouble.
Neo was the only one who actually understood it and sacrified himself to reboot matrix...thats why he let smith infect himself....loosing balance between 0 and 1 causing the system to reboot.

I did not really like the end, but when you think about it, was there really any other way? You can't just disconnect billions of people from the matrix simultaneously, and you could not defeat the machines that are keeping them alive. Either way, they all would have died. The only way to end this was through a truce, and Smith was the means to the truce. He was a mutual bad guy to both the machines and humans, a common enemy which brought them together. More psychobabble about how we need them and they need us, symbiotic relationship.

At least now people (and machines?) have a choice. But, do they know the choice exists? Imagine the evening news, "You all live in a computer generated dreamworld, if you want out, call 1.800.LEAVE.NOW." Imagine the chaos that would create. How do you tell them the choice?

The big flaw with the storyline, which I believe was discussed above, was the fact that the machines went through so much trouble to enslave the human race for power when they could have easily harvested solar energy from above. Or are they saying the machines couldn't climb a few hundred measly meters into the sky? Yeah, I suppose the lightning could short them out, but have they never heard of insulation? Looked like they had that capability to me.

There are many other possibilities of power besides solar as well. For one, what about all that lightning in the real world? Could they not have harvested that? What about nuclear or some other futuristic type power source which I am sure the machines had the capabilities to create. And even if humans were the only available power source, why let us keep our consciousness? Did the machines wish to be entertained? I guess that is a possibility, but not likely IMO. This flaw pretty much punches a hole in the entire storyline and makes it unbelievable.

Don't get me wrong, the premise of the movie was and still is great, but that one flaw makes that premise pointless.

I guess I came away from this ending with more questions than I went in with. I need to watch all the movies, animatrix, and video game as a whole, and then judge them, as I believe every true fan should. I have a lot of respect for these guys as film-makers, and because of that I believe there is more.

My only other complaint is that Revolutions did not fit the tone and tempo of the other films. It was NOT the Matrix and just did not seem to fit the theme. Besides the philosophy, my favorite part of the Matrix was the fight scenes. Part 3 lacked this, and that was disappointing. I can watch any number of movies if I want to see spaceship & spaceship like machines blowing up all over the place. I did not want traditional scifi, I wanted the matrix, I didn't get it, the main source of my displeasure. Did it make me any less of a fan, not really, becuase they are still 3 pretty damn good movies. Then Animatrix rocked, and I am looking forward to playing the game.

afterall machines are the ones keeping stupid humans alive....there is no plants left, no animals everything is dead... :P
correct me if I am wrong...

All I want to know is why Neo could see and manipulate things in the real world.

I have not come up with or read any answer that realy works so far. If that was made clear I would be most HAPPAY!

moaiz:

quote:

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If originality is the Art of Concealing your sources it appears that as the series progressed the originality became more scarce.

---

That's an interesting way of putting it. Can't argue with you there.

Ruski: I understand your point. You're upset because, as moaiz mentioned, they borrowed more and more blatantly from other (anime in particular) sources. I must admit that some of the borrowing did seem to be a bit much. I still maintain, though, that it wasn't so much the borrowing as it was the inability to fully integrate the material into the movie.

I'm sorry you hate the movie... it certainly wasn't my favorite movie of all time, but it was a fun ride. I tried to enjoy it as much as I could.


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

eyezear: it was wireless hack into the matrix, I think....
since machines are connected to the matrix he was basicly connected into the matrix as well just "wireless" , how he does it? i dunno...just some Holywood cheese...so basicly he was operating machines from inside, making them go BOOM....no he couldnt control "everything" just that...IMP

well suho, the first one ruled!

its not only because of that story and barrowing...the effects were boring...they looked so fake, they overused 3D way too much.

quote:

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just some Holywood cheese...

---

Jesus H. Christ, Ruski, if you've learned anything from watching the movie you would have learned that everything had/has a purpose. Just because you can't understand the general messages that were implied doesn't mean that they don't exist. Stop being so close-minded, you're bitching at every little detail that didn't make sense to you.

Insider, its not about being closed minded, the logic flaws were in the first movie too, example:

What good would the "...codes for zion's mainframe" do the machines? Zion is an isolated system run by the best hackers to escape from the matrix, is it not?

But the story was told with enough style and consistency that questions like that werent asked, people just enjoyed the movie for what it was and still is, a great story that pulls you in with intelligent detail and purpose. When the story unravels and it turns into an FX driven franchise people start looking to see whats behind the curtain. Dont get your custom tailored trenchcoat all in a bindle, some people just didnt buy into it. It still had some great hilights, maybe the next one will be that much better. We can certainly agree to disagree.

Tragic sequel to a perfect idea. The movie blew chunks.

PLEASE ELABORATE

Ruski: Yes, the first one did rock. I think we can all agree on that.

moaiz: Did you say "next one"?


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

insider: what moaiz said.

suho, yeah I have heard alot of people are rumoring that another matrixs will be made, but I strongly disagree: ITS OVER, no more shall be made....
and I guess none will


edit: ohh and insider, just cause I didnt like the movie and you did, this doesnt mean we should start argument. You don't like my post/oppion? don't read it I am not forcing you to, ignore it and everything will be pretty =)

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 11-09-2003).]

i can't think of more matrixs! i even couldn't after part 1, and i think more matrixs, just won't fit in the story.

btw, they are developing a matrix massively multiplayer online game!

[This message has been edited by mas (edited 11-09-2003).]

I don't like that movie. Why did they name it "Revolution"? What was the revolution?

Mas, thankyou so much.

Peace. It had never been seen before between the machines and the people.... That was what was new... revolutionary.

Bah, don't mean to double post...

But whilst thinking harder on Karma I came to realize a few more things that may make things clearer.

I think the whole movie was based on Karma, or at least that was one of the main themes. The Karma system is the belief that everything has a purpose. For example, if someone were to be living in poverty and another to be living in wealth, it is because of what they have done to deserve their fate, because it had a purpose. It's not like "well, that's life..."

So, throughout the trilogy The Oracle keeps repeating "Everything has a purpose," and "It has already been decided."

Another example of this would be when The Oracle asks Neo if he would like a piece of candy in Reloaded. Neo replies back with something arrogant like "Why do you ask me this if you already know what I am going to say?" And The Oracle replies with "Because you have a choice."

Choices!

Maybe this little, completely hypothetical, scenario I have created, can help you understand that.

Let's say that back during the days of the Spanish Inquisition, there were Jews living in Europe. Let's say that these Jews believed in Karma. Well when someone finds out that they aren't Catholic, and they tell the local Clergy, the Jews may think that it was destined to be, because of fate. So they think that they are going to die because they didn't believe, like that gave them Bad Karma. Well, is there something they could do to escape death? Like escape to another country before they are arrested? But why would they even try to change the future if it has already been perceived? Because they choose to! No matter what they choose, it will have had a purpose, and will have already been decided. If they chose to stay and die, it's because it was their inevitable Karma, and it has already been decided. If they chose to escape, it's because it was their inevitable Karma, and it has already been decided.

So when Agent Smith is talking to Neo at the end of Revolutions and says something like "WHY?! WHY ARE YOU STILL FIGHTING? YOU KNOW I'M GOING TO WIN!" Neo replies.... "Because I choose to." You can't change the future... So no matter what Neo does, it was inevitable. If Neo lost, and Zion was destroyed, the Architect would have rebuilt Zion, it was already decided. If Neo won, and Zion was saved, and the war was over, it had already been decided. But by what? Karma....

quote:

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the Architect would have rebuilt Zion

---

call me stupid, but thats what i still not understand - is the "real" world in the matrix too?

This is a theory of a member of the matrix fans-forums
see the full thread overe here --> http://forums.matrixfans.net/showthread.php?threadid=18223&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

quote:

---

Neo is a machine, kinda. He is a human with enhanced genetics, enhanced implants, and a machine programmed mind (probably based on a "The One" template program). That's why, at the end of Revolutions, when his body is being taken away, he is shown as an orange glow. The orange glow is how the machines see each other, and therefore how they see Neo. It is also how Neo sees Smith inside Bane... he is seeing the machine program of Smith inside Bane's mind, and therefore it is an orange glow in the shape of the Smith.

But the orange glow isn't the only reason to believe Neo is a machine. Throughout the trilogy other hints are given, such as: "His neural kinetics are way above normal.", "He's a machine.", "Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication...", etc.

So if Neo is a machine, why was he created (as all machines must have a purpose)? He was created by the Oracle and the Architect to be The One. As the Architect explains to him: "Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix... Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of The One... The function of The One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program."

Translated, the Architect is explaining that Neo was designed to be a religious figure to the freed humans, thus causing them to put their faith (hope) in Neo and to rally around him ("...sum of a remainder..."). This helps to ensure that the freed humans are focused on Neo instead of war, and to keep them all together in one place, Zion (which was built by the machines for this purpose also). Neo is a form of control in the real world.

And just to make sure that Neo carries out his part of their plan, the machines programmed him with "... a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the [humans]." This, along with his enhanced abilities and the "guidance" of the Oracle, keeps him on the intended course.

The Architect also states that "The function of The One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program." This simply means that The One program in Neo's mind is the most important (prime) program in the Matrix, and that now that his mission (purpose) is complete, he must return to the source for deletion (all machines must have a purpose). The phrase "... temporary dissemination..." means that the The One program will be used again in the next version of the Matrix. This is also why Neo's choice of the left door will destroy the Matrix, as there can be only one The One in the Matrix at any time. By staying in the Matrix Neo is preventing it from being reloaded, as a reload will do nothing without another The One for the next version. (In programming terms he is the highest priority task, and he will not release the Matrix program's main semaphore.)

OK, so The One is a human with enhanced genetics, enhanced implants, and a machine programmed mind, and was created by the Oracle and the Architect to carry out a specific purpose (form of control in and out of the Matrix) in each iteration of the Matrix. Now let's see how The One fits in with the entire story of the trilogy.

As is explained, the Matrix was created by the Architect, at the end of the war with the humans, as a way to control the humans and use them as a power source (I know, hard to believe...). The first Matrix was "... quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime.", while the second Matrix was redesigned "... to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature." Basically Heaven and then Hell. In both cases, however, no conscious choice was given to the humans as to whether or not they wanted to believe in the reality of the Matrix. This caused the majority of humans to reject the Matrix and die ("... whole crops were lost.").

To solve this problem the Oracle was created, and realized correctly that the humans needed to be given a choice: "Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche... she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level." So by giving humans a choice, even at an unconscious level that only 0.1% are ever aware of, they accepted the Matrix.

Unfortunately for the machines, however, a majority of the 0.1% who were aware of the choice usually chose the real world over the Matrix. "While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster." The machines therefore also needed a way to control the 0.1% of the humans who chose the real world over the Matrix, thus Zion and The One were created.

As was explained earlier, Zion was built by the machines to ensure that the freed humans would all gather in one place, and The One was created to be their religious figure, helping to distract them from renewed war with the machines. Both forms of control.

But even with Zion and The One, the unpredictability of choice ("systemic anomoly") still forced the machines to occasionally "reload" the Matrix. This always occurs when The One reaches the Source, which he can only do after attaining the level of power necessary for him to defeat the Merovingian, obtain the Keymaker, etc. The One program is then temporarily reinserted into the Source (machine mainframe), in preparation for the next iteration of the Matrix. In the process the machines gain the knowledge and experiences of The One, allowing them to better predict the future behavior of the humans, and thus reduce the systemic anomolies.

So that is the situation at the start of the sixth iteration of the choice-Matrix. Luckily for the humans, however, the Oracle does not want them to be enslaved in the Matrix any longer, or for the freed humans to be killed. She therefore decides to take a risk and use Neo to bring about a "revolution".

In M1 (The Matrix) she meets with The One, Neo, as she has done in the five previous iterations of the Matrix. Normally she simply helps guide The One to his meeting with the Architect. Except this time the Oracle gives Neo a special cookie, which he eats. The cookie isn't actually a cookie, though, it's an upgrade to Neo's program. Since the Oracle created the The One program, she can predict exactly what Neo will do in the future, specifically how he will destroy Smith (from the inside, with some copying from Neo to Smith occuring). She therefore includes in the program upgrade code that will give Smith the ability to replicate himself, and for Neo and Smith to see the future as she does.

In M2 (The Matrix Reloaded) Neo plays out his role as The One, meeting with the Architect. However, due to his love for Trinity he chooses the left door, preventing the Matrix from reloading. This was seen in advance by the Oracle, as she has the ability to predict Neo's behavior (as explained above) as well as human behavior in general (due to the nature of her program). She therefore told Trinity that she would fall in love with Neo (in M1), all the while knowing it would eventually cause Neo to choose the left door.

In M3 (The Matrix Revolutions) the Oracle's plan comes to fruition. While the machines begin their assualt on Zion (for the sixth time), Smith continues to replicate himself throughout the Matrix. Neo, on the otherhand, is stuck in the train station. Apparently, fulfilling his mission to meet with the Architect unlocks some section of his program that allows Neo to use his enhanced implants to once again become part of the machine collective (perhaps because of the Oracle's upgrade?). He is therefore able to sense and control other machines wirelessly. The first example of this is when he stops the sentinels at the end of M2. Since he is not quite ready to use his new abilities, however, his program gets stuck at the security checkpoint of the Matrix, the train station.

In the train station Neo meets with Rama Kandra, his wife, and their daughter Sati. Rama and his wife are both machines from the real world who can jack into the Matrix, like all other machines, and live human lives. Sati is a program created by these two machines out of love, which Rama explains to Neo is not out of the grasp of the machines. They are on their way back into the Matrix to leave Sati with the Oracle for safe keeping, as any program without a purpose is deleted.

After being rescued from the train station by Trinity, Morpheus, and Seraph, Neo is helped out of the Matrix using the standard jack. While aboard the Hammer he has another vision of the future, this time of the three power lines leading from the Matrix power station to 01, the machine city (he is able to see the power lines due to his newfound connection to the machine collective). He therefore takes the Logos, along with Trinity, and leaves for 01. Along the way he confronts the stowaway Bane (who has the Smith program inside of him), and is blinded by him. Although blind, Neo is still able to see other machines (orange glow), including the Smith program inside Bane, which he uses to defeat Bane. He also uses his power to control other machines to detonate the bombs fired at the Logos by the 01 defenses.

Meanwhile Smith is replicating out of control in the Matrix, and eventually confronts the Oracle after taking over Seraph and Sati. They have a brief conversation in which he calls her "Mom", referring to the fact that she helped to create him (along with the Architect) as well as Neo (part of his program now). The Oracle then tells Smith to "Do what you came here to do.", so he takes over her as well. The newly formed Smith then stands up and laughs hysterically, foreshadowing the events at the end of the movie.

Eventually the Logos crashes in 01, but not before Neo gets a top-down view of the orange glowing city with his newfound machine-vision (notice the fractal patterns). Unfortunately Trinity is killed in the crash, and explains to Neo that both of them have been living on borrowed time. Neo since he was ressurected by Trinity, and Trinity since she was ressurected by Neo. Both are meant to die and Trinity is simply happy for the oportunity this time to tell Neo how she feels about him. (But shame on the brothers for killing off Trinity in such a lame way. Couldn't she have at least died trying to save the ship, not just letting it crash!)

Neo then leaves the Logos and enters the machine building into which it crashed (the building is seen in the same orange glowing machine-vision). He is then confronted by the Deus Ex Machina, who knows that Neo is the only one who can stop Smith from destroying the Matrix, but still shows hatred toward Neo (due to the fact that he is mostly human). After a show of force, the Deus Ex Machina agrees to peace with the humans in exchange for Neo's promise to destroy Smith. This causes the sentinels to halt their attack on the Zion temple, the last holdout of the remaining humans (the dock and city have already been destroyed).

The machines then jack Neo into the Matrix, since he has not yet masterred the ability to do so wirelessly (this theme of Neo having to learn to use his new abilities runs throughout the trilogy). Neo then confronts Smith, who says he has seen the future, and that he (the one particular Smith) is the one that defeats Neo. The other Smiths (all of the other people in the Matrix have now been taken over by him) therefore only watch as the fight begins.

After a brutal battle Neo is near defeat, but continues to fight. When asked why he does so, Neo responds "Because I choose to.", echoing the theme in M2 that "Everything begins with choice." (the only way humans achieve true freedom). But even though he delivers a stunning punch to Smith which sends him through the ground, Neo is eventually defeated. Before Smith takes him over he pauses, however, realizing that he has seen this very moment in his visions, and he already knows what he is going to say. "Everything that has a beginning has an end..." he mutters confusedly. This causes Neo to realize that the Oracle still exists somewhere inside of Smith, and that she is partially able to control his thoughts. Taking his cue from the Oracle, Neo freely gives himself to Smith.

Thus Neo is defeated, and Smith's original purpose, to defeat The One (which he is never really expected to achieve, which leads to his bad temperment) is accomplished. Smith therefore no longer has a purpose and must be deleted. But since programs marked for deletion must return to the source, how is Smith to be deleted? Simple, the machines send the command through Neo, into Smith, using a burst of energy. This causes all of the Smith clones, and the original Smith, to be deleted, leaving the original inhabitants of the bodies he has taken over (this is a basic function of the agent programs, that they leave their hosts as they found them, with death being the only exception).

This then completes another revolution in the Matrix cycle, as The One has reached the Source and has reinserted the prime program (Neo's program, his knowledge and experiences). The Matrix is then reloaded back to it's initial state, the late 20th century.

The Oracle then meets with Sati, Seraph, and the Architect in a park outside the city as the sun rises over it. The Architect tells her that she was playing a "very risky game", and she asks him if he will honor the promise of peace. He says that he will, since he is not human (meaning humans do not keep their promises, an insult). This means that those people who unconsciously become aware of the Matrix and choose to leave will be freed, and those living in Zion will not be killed. The war between man and machine is over, or at least suspended.

Looking upon the sunrise the Oracle asks Sati if that was her doing, and the girl responds that she did it for Neo (made the sun rise). Apparently Neo's experience with love, which was uploaded from him to the Source, caused the machines to show pity on Sati and give her a purpose instead of deleting her. She is now in control of the sun. Sati also asks the Oracle if they will ever see Neo again, and the Oracle replies that they might, indicating that the The One program will be used again in the future, as it had been for the previous six iterations of the Matrix. M3 therefore ends where M1 began, except that now the humans who become aware of the Matrix will be freed (a decent compromise if you ask me).

Whew, done! Hopefully this helped those of you who were confused like me after seeing M3 for the first time. I know that I am not 100% correct in what I've said here (perhaps only 50%), but it's a nice starting point. Maybe others can build on it to make it even more correct and useful. Thanks for reading!

---

Wow, it's all so simeple.

That's a pretty good theory about what it all means. Nicely explained.

:::11oh1:::

That is quite a nice theory. It may not be 100% correct, but it sounds very plausible and well thought out. I must admit that I didn't really get a lot of what went on, and that explanation does clear some things up. Right or not, it does seem to make some things clearer.

One thing I'm wondering about, though, is this whole "choice" thing. So, the reason that the first few iterations of the Matrix failed is because humans weren't given a choice about their existence? What about our present existence? Were we given a choice? I know I wasn't. Maybe I'm missing something here--maybe the humans were aware on a very basic level that the Matrix wasn't real (I think that's the idea, at least). Still, though, it seems like the principle of choice would still apply to our real world. I dunno... just pondering.


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Hey Ini, why is it so impossible for you to verbalize your opinions without attacking other people and sounding like a complete asshole? I mean seriously man, it is possible to intelligently discuss a topic without resulting to petty insults.

:::11oh1:::

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Nice of you to prove WS's point for him ini.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Whoo. Some likeed it, some didn't. Does anyone here expect to make anybody else switch opinions? At some point people need to take a step back before they can honestly judge something. Remember, when the first matrix came out, the reviews ranged from "one long, over-produced action sequence" to "A total testosterone rush". For fun, some reviewer said: "It's no (thing as good as) Dark City".

(People might wonder: "What the hell is Dark City?" That's exactly my point.)

Only in time we'll be able to tell if the matrix series is as good or as bad as you think it is. Even after 4 years, I still notice new things in the first matrix movie, and the absolute snese of detail the movie has. I think that a 1 or 2 time viewing with a rigid mindset is not a good basis for a solid review.



[This message has been edited by mahjqa (edited 11-10-2003).]

It does make you think Ini. Take a look at the very page you pointed out to us. It's about 40 pages long of the person's thoughts about the movie.

So yes, I would say it does make you think. So what is your problem with WS liking to think? I really doubt he was saying that people who didn't like the movie can't think. Lighten up a bit.

:::11oh1:::

yah, i strongly agree with krets. WS just liked the movie, because he likes to think...thats his opinion. i think nobody over here feels pissed off, after reading this.

Especially since he wasn't the only, nor the first, person to mention that here. It isn't that we don't think you CAN, or don't WANT to think. It's that people who didn't like the movie wanted to see exactly what THEY wanted to see in such terms as THEY wanted them to be in. Hence, they wanted to be given what they wanted, rather than finding what they sought in what was given to them. But taking particular offense to a comment that wasn't directed anywhere but the digital ether is just looking to make enemies IMO. That and a worthwhile search for high blood pressure.

I like the quote pulled off of matrix-explained.com

quote:

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"I know, I know, my statements above are probably exaggerated since Revolutions may create a new kind of "Matrix Fan" who likes exactly its concept of "Just ask, don't answer anything". Overanalyzing for the sake of overanalyzing. "

---

That link is 40 pages of what several people have thought about the movie and yes it made people think. The very first thought I think I thunk was "...this should have been a better movie"

we dont want to stop and think halfway through the goddamn movie. we want to be entertained, and although the matrix made you think, it didnt require three sleepless nights and 6 litres of coffee. without thinking, i thought the movie completely sucked.



Hopefully that answers your question. Well, not really.

mahjqa: I just read that review, and I am stunned. I saw Dark City, and personally I thought it sucked some really large moose balls. You want cheese? Dark City has it in spades, especially the ending. I wonder if it's really possible for a movie in this genre coming out of Hollywood not to have a cheesy ending...

[Oh, and InI: for me the whole point is not whether or not WS insulted anyone, but how you reacted to it. Even if his remark was insulting, you didn't have to come back with such a vitriolic reply, did you? You could have just let it roll off your back, or ignore it completely, and there would have been no problem. At least that's my take on it.]

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

I like to think and I didnt like the movie HAHAHA :P

quote:

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I saw Dark City, and personally I thought it sucked some really large moose balls.

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Exactly. Once again proves that a reviewer's opinion, or anyone's really, is worth crap.

I apologize if you took that wrong, Ini...maybe first asking what I meant would have cleared things up first. Krets said it well - I personally like movies, that make me think. Period. Thus, I found the movie to be brilliant.

Nothing more, nothing less. It's definitely not a comment aimed at others, or suggesting that other people don't think, or that people who do not like the Matrix don't think.

Hope that clears that up. Onwards!

I've just been to see it and I have mixed emotions - it had been panned by everyone I know (in real life) who'd seen the movie and the trailers didn't really work for me so I wasn't expecting much when I went to see it. So I was pleasantly suprised when the invasion of Zoin passed all my expectations and just when I was thinking I wouldn't mind a bit more Matrix-stlye fighting in it popped (admittedly the rain fighting scene didn't match with any of the others in the previus films - it may just be that that kind of combat in that scenario is going to be a bit of a retread but also, as moaiz said, the CG let it down). That said while I enjoyed the bulk of the film the ending let it down and I find myself more in accord with moaiz - they threw out vast numbers of threads and ideas in the first two movies and then really did very little with it in the end - very disappointing. I knew that to win Neo had to die but that just seemed weak all round - poor concept poorly executed.

But its only my opinion - I'll read through those resources later and see if I change my opinion.

One thing that confused me was the little girl - she was being put on the train to take her out of the Matrix and yet she was back in the Matrix next time we see her - did I miss something?

I do like InSiDeR's idea about the cookies - she was a program with no purpose so would have been deleted but after a quick cookie (see conputer cookies are good) she could do multi-coloured sunsets (nice trick).

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

I have been reading all of this stuff and I have noticed that the people who hate the ending haven't suggested a better one.

I wonder what they expected.

Did they want the Logan's Run ending?
For those who haven't seen Logan's Run:
Logan destroys the city while trying to escape it and all the people climb outside to see the real world for the first time and then human civilization can begin again.

It would have been really easy for the Matrix Trilogy to end that way.

Still, the Matrix Universe smacks a little of 'Cosby-ism'.
All that 20th century stuff looks a little too perfect.
I know, I know....

Emperor, she was actually being snuck INTO the Matrix.

SPyX: Thats the only way things could have worked but I thought the reason they were putting her on the train was to stop her being deleted by the Matrix as she had no purpose.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Not deleted in the Matrix Emps, her parents were programs running in the machine world. They wanted to take her to the Matrix to be protected and once there she was given a purpose so she would not be deleted.

:::11oh1:::

[This message has been edited by krets (edited 11-12-2003).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

In other news: clicky

And I believe that is the first time I have ever typed "clicky" here at the Asylum...


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

Clicky II Though not as funny as Suho's link.

You want an end? I read this about a couple of hours after I saw the movie (in my quest to quench the "WTF?" that Moaiz spoke about), as far as I'm convinced, this is what happened in the third movie..... I am erasing what I saw in the theater 'cause, frankly, it wasn't any good...

quote:

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The movie begins with the now-familiar green text and title, and we return the table with Bane and Neo in their comatose states. The camera pans over Bane's head, and dissolves to show the top of a building, Metacortex, which is otherwise empty save for an elderly black woman standing at the edge. The camera leans over, showing us the street below, where an army of Agent Smiths is running around, assimilating people exponentially quick.

The Architect suddenly appears beside the woman, explains that this type of security breach was not possible in the earlier, more perfect versions of the system, and blames her for tainting it. She rolls her eyes and says, "Some things never change." He says "But you have." Now identified as the Oracle, making no excuses, she asks him what they're going to do about the problem below.

Suddenly, there is a loud banging noise and the door to roof bursts open, and an Agent smith runs across the roof towards her with his hand stretched out. He is blocked by Seraph who easily destroys the single drone by throwing him off the edge. "They are weak" Seraph says, "but there is strength in numbers." The camera cuts to the base of the building where the assimilating smiths drop overpowering the humans and begin running into the bottom of the building ("We've found her."

At this point, the camera cuts back and forth between a rooftop conversation with the Oracle and the Architect and the Smith virus running rampant through the building, assimilating people they go and gaining in numbers. The Oracle and the Architect remain calm, slowly walking towards the door, just at the same time as we see Smith approaching it. The Oracle's last words are "I'll talk to him. There's still time." just before opening the door revealing a white corridor. Both of them step through, and the second the door shuts it bursts open, and hundreds of smiths pop out on the empty roof, upset.

We cut to a shot of Zion's council discussing the drilling that continues above them. They are aware of Neo's failed Journey to the source and the effort to stop the war. People begin to panic, but the chancellor remains confident. They make the decision to mobilize every available human in the city to fight the impeding threat. When someone on the council asks the chancellor why he is not worried, he simply repeats the wise words of a man he trusts: "We are still here."

We return to the shot of Neo and Bane in their coma. The camera pans back over Neo's head and dissolves to show him in a Train station. He is disoriented and people are walking past him contemptuously as if he's a homeless person. A little girl, who identifies herself as Rama-Kandra, refuses to ignore him sitting there and tries to make sure he's okay. Her father is noticeably upset at first, but then seems to turn white. His wife asks him what's wrong, and then we cut to the Merovingian's restaurant in Reloaded.

We witness a conversation between the Merovingian and the unidentified man. Mero is screaming, asking if the "software abstraction" known as "purgatory" is indeed possible. The man, a software developer, refuses to talk at first. "I am not going to build you a prison for rogue programs!" He insists. Mero eventually convinces him that it's in his best interest, by showing telling him he's wired a particular piece of food in his restaurant directly to the lifeline of the person most dear to him. "My daughter!" he yells, and Mero smiles. "Everyone stop eating!" the man yells, and the entire restaurant goes silent. People stand there for a moment in disgust, before the man sheds a tear, and Mero sends one of his goons to escort them out the side door, just as he notices Neo enter.

We cut back to the two comatose men lying on their backs. The crew of the ship marches back in, and a pissed Morpheus looks at Bane and says "I'm going to kill you for what you've done!" but another crewmember stops him. "No! Watch this!" The member takes a small pin to Bane's hand and pricks him in the centre of his palm with it. Trinity puts her knuckle in her mouth as neo winces, and a drop of blood suddenly appears in his hand. They explain that it's called Stigmata, and it's something they'd only ever seen in the Matrix before, when two entities become inextricably linked. "How can this be happening? How did Neo stop the sentinels? This doesn't make any sense!"

We cut to a side room where Persephone walks in to talk to the Indian man. She demands the key to purgatory. He sobs for a second, then pulls out a plastic lipstick container and hands it over. She looks confused. "All it takes is a kiss,? he says. Persephone smiles, and runs down the corridor beside a sign that says "Elevator."

Back on the ship, the captain suggests that they kill Bane anyway. He's destroying the matrix, and killing so many innocent humans they've yet to free. Morpheus, no longer clinging to hope that Neo is the one, admits that maybe it's something they should consider, that Neo is likely in a coma in both worlds anyway. Trinity is understandably upset. And there is a moment of tension while they all let the idea marinate.

We inter cut with scenes from the train station. The man tries to snap Neo out of it, but it's obvious he's having difficulty understanding what's going on. A train enters the station and the man's paranoia increases. Rama-Kandra reaches into his pocket and pulls out a ragged metal spoon. Back on the ship, they hold Trinity back in tears as the captain moves towards Bane with a knife. Back in the train station, Neo looks at the spoon. "But how could that be here, in the Matrix?" He feels his arms, and there are no plugs. He concentrates on the spoon, and sure enough, it bends, but at the same time we cut to his body back on the ship, where the spoon is his pocket moves there too. Trinity, shocked, pulls it out of his pocket and watches it bend... "He's still alive!"... The captain looks at Bane, who twitches with excitement: "But so is he."

At this point there are various shots of the war brewing in Zion, and everyone preparing, crying and dealing with their loved ones. Battlemechs are stationed, a very lengthy and emotional sequence.

We cut back to the ship, where Trinity is stroking Neo's had like in the first Matrix and begging him for information. She tells him she loves him, and just as she does, his lips move and say "The Merovingian?" As if he's asking a question.

Back in the train station, we see Neo ask the same question. Rama and her family are helping him remember, but he can barely stand up. All of a sudden the train goes out of service, and the passengers inside all clear out. We cut to the driver of the train who is cocking a handgun and smiling. Neo, upset, asks Rama's father why he would have given Persephone the key to Purgatory, and he says, "I know, it's irrational, but I was threatened with the one I love the most." Neo cools down, and forgives him, saying he understands. All of a sudden, there is a gunshot as the train conductor jumps out shooting.

Back in the coma, both Bane and Neo get a bead of sweat on their forehead. Trinity says something like "I hope you're okay in there."

We go back to street level, where Smith is still assimilating people left right and center. A bead of sweat hits all of them on the forehead at the same time. And they say, "He's fighting..." another says "But where?" and then there's the echo of another gunshot in the subway. They all nod, and make a break for it.

Down in the subway we witness a spectacular fighting sequence between neo and the conductor and some other goons. As agent smith runs faster and faster, neo finds himself with more energy. At first he's losing, but he soon regains his powers, getting better and better. Eventually he defeats them, just as Smith runs down the subway staircase. Rama says, "Run!" to Neo, but he doesn't want to leave them for dead. "She's right... See the Oracle... Italian quarter" Her father says. Neo repeats it aloud, and it echoes back in the ship with Trinity. Trinity jumps to her feet and runs to tell Morpheus. Back in the subway, Neo, concerned about Rama and her family, says he can't leave them for death. Rama says he has no choice, which perplexes him. Then her mother says "Don't worry, we were almost out of here anyway." She opens a janitor's closet, revealing another hall of doors. Neo sees a bunch of Smiths coming in all the entrances to the subway and says to himself "Italian Quarter? That's at the end of the Loop." and jumps into the tunnel and starts running along the track.

There's another shot of the drills getting closer to Zion and the counsel getting all upset, wishing that they hadn't given in to false prophecies. The Kid interrupts them saying "How do you know it's false? Neo saved me!"

Back on the ship, Trinity and Morpheus plug themselves in and find themselves at night in the Italian quarter, where Seraph is waiting for them. He takes them down a hallway to see the Oracle, warns them that she has changed. The oracle, back in her kitchen, explains that it's important that Neo is saved. In her usual guessing games, she makes Trinity explain where they need to go next based on the information she has "The Merovingian", Neo's words. Morpheus and Trinity argue over whether or not they can take him on themselves, and the Oracle reminds them that they don't even know where he is anymore. She explains he's in a very exclusive club, but not to worry, because she's sending them with a VIP member. The camera pans to Seraph who smiles. "Neo's in Purgatory." He says. "Let's go to Hell." The oracle asks them to hurry, because she's expecting a guest.

Just as they leave, seconds later Neo arrives at the end of the tunnel, and sees Seraph, Morpheus and Trinity leave her building and get into a black car. He runs to meet them, but they don't notice and drive away. Fed up, he walks into the building they left, where he meets the Oracle, and she says he's right on time, as usual. He asks why she didn't tell Morpheus and Trinity to wait for him. She asks him why he ran down the tunnel instead of flying. He says he can't fly anymore, that he's weak. And then she says that's why she didn't want him to go with them, that there's no room for weak where they went.

He asks her questions about the Architect and whether the Matrix is doomed. She hands him a red pill and says that the threat of Smith is far greater to the robots than the threat of losing the Matrix. He asks her where they'll get their power, and she asks him where Zion gets their power. The earth's core. That's what the architect meant by different levels of survival they'd be prepared to accept. Neo asks if Zion can be saved, and the Oracle says that because he didn't reload the matrix, the robots are going to destroy it.

We cut to club hell. Trinity is disgusted to discover that the twins are alive and well, after their car exploded. They say something about the ability to become invincible is especially useful in the middle of explosions. There is a spectacular battle between them all. It ends on a sad note, as Seraph sacrifices himself to keep the twins visible long enough to die. Persephone, obviously back at Mero's side even makes a couple of gunshots.

Back in the oracle's office, Neo asks why he can only act in the matrix world and has no sensation in the real world. The oracle gives a wonderfully grandmother line about how children never want to take their pills. She says "The red pill, like many important things in life, come in threes." Neo unwraps the candy package from Reloaded revealing another red pill. He pops both in his mouth, and suddenly wakes up on the ship. He sits up, and in a wonderful piece of directing Bane wakes up too at the same time, yet they mirror each other's actions so much that they think at first it's a real mirror of their back. When they realize what's going on, they begin to fight in the ship's hull. It culminates with a blaze of lightning in Neo's face, blinding him. Back in the Oracle's kitchen, Neo says "I've got a problem, someone's fighting me here and I can't see." and the Oracle says, "You only destroyed your eyes in one world." All of a sudden, Neo starts to see things in Code in the real world, and Bane turns into a fire silhouette, revealing his true identity as Smith. Neo fights even harder, and manages to throw him through a hole in the bottom of the ship.

We cut back to Zion, and at this point the people inside are all prepared for battle, and the sentinels are so close that they can hear them. Everyone is nervous and more inspiring speeches are given. There are some wonderful shots of Zion's walkways, full of people. The Kid from the last movie and Animatrix comes back and proves to be a semi-useful warrior, despite coming close to death a few times.

Back in club hell, the Merovingian and Persephone are cornered. Mero dares Morpheus to kill him, that it wont bring Neo back. All of a sudden, Trinity looks at Persephone, and something clicks about the kiss they experienced. "No, but killing her might." All of a sudden Mero starts to sweat. "You wouldn't." And in a swift movie, Trinity says to him "You might not get Jealous, but I do" and shoots Persephone in cold blood.

In the Oracle's kitchen, there's a knock on the door. A bunch of Agent smiths begin to enter, and Neo assumes his battle stance before turning into green code and disappearing. Smith is disappointed at losing Neo, but is all too happy to destroy the Oracle and does so. At the same time, Bane's body, on the ground in the desert of the living turns into code and disappears the same way, separating them into real/matrix worlds.

Back in club Hell, Morpheus and Trinity call back to the ship and are surprised to hear Neo answer (who has re-united with the ship captain.) He gives them the address of a local phone, and they come back out of the matrix and re-unite. All is well, but there's that feeling that they've lost more than they've gained. Neo is still blind, wearing a blindfold over his face. The oracle is dead. Zion is about to be destroyed. They make the decision that the best thing to do is go back and fight the sentinels with the last of the human survivors.

This is where the third act of the movie begins, and there's a spectacular yet horrifying special effects sequence as Zion begins to get destroyed. The ship with Morpheus, Neo and Trinity approaches during the bloodshed helping out the best they can. They begin to lose the battle terribly, being vastly outnumbered and outgunned. Morpheus is convinced that there's got to be a better plan of attack. All of a sudden Neo is stunned with an epiphany. He asks Trinity, to describe what's going on around him and the captain says something like "Hah, you're good, but not good enough to fight without your vision." He insists, and Trinity describes the horror going on. When she stumbles upon the description of three huge power cables, Neo stands up in place.


He demands that they follow them. Trinity asks him what he's talking about, and he explains that the Oracle mentioned it to him. Morpheus, at this point, is terribly fed up. He used to be a believer, but he's seen too much. Things have gotten progressively worse, and he thinks he'd be better serving humanity by fighting than by chasing cables. The ship captain agrees, but Trinity stands by him regardless. However, at this point their ship is so badly damaged that it's almost useless to fight, so they hand it over. Neo and Trinity drop them off where they rejoin the fight on foot, now that the sentinels have started to destroy hundreds of people on the inside of Zion.

Neo tells Trinity to fly close to the cables, and scares her by describing the surroundings in detail. She observes that it doesn't make sense, but nothing has made sense ever since they met. Surprisingly, the sentinels aren't willing to blow up anything even remotely close to their ships, presumably because the cables provide some sort of important capability to them. The cables turn upwards, and they end up flying directly to the surface, in the middle of the desert to a place known as 01. The cables stop at a platform, and the ship lands. Neo and Trinity stumble out in front of an odd green doorway. She knocks on it, but it's solid. Neo, reaches out like a blind person, and is surprised that his hands go right through it, as if it's water. He tells her that he has to go alone. She asks if he knows what he's doing here, and he says he has a good idea. They exchange a kiss, as if it's their last.

Neo walks through the door, and the second he does he finds that his eyes have repaired themselves. He's in a psychedelic hallway that changes color, and all alongside him are weird looking creatures staring at him. He walks the length, and is presented with another green door. He walks through it, and is disoriented when he finds himself on top of a cliff. A huge robot shows up and speaks to him in a metallic voice. In its center is a screen with faces that change depending on what it's talking about.

He tells the robot leader that the Smith virus is endangering both of their species, that although they hate each other they're going to have to work together to defeat him. Neo only wants one thing in return, to leave Zion alone so that he can reload the matrix like he sound have done in the first place. The robots agree, and the sentinels attacking Zion suddenly stop fighting and fly away (there's a huge victory celebration.) At this point, Zion has been ruptured, so Neo has the robots get the access codes from Trinity so that he can relay a message. He explains what is happening, and what he's going to do. Many people disagree, but they admit he had not done it; they all would have died at the mercy of the sentinels anyway (so at least this buys them time.)

Back in the matrix, we observe as Smith has taken over every single human being. There are literally millions of him running around. At first you think he's just destroying things in the virtual world, and then you realize what he's doing -- taking out every single phone except for one.

Neo returns to Trinity's ship and asks her to relay the feed of the matrix to Zion (and to 01) so that people can watch what's going on. She agrees, and he jacks in. Inside the matrix, it's raining, and Neo pops out of a phone booth on a street full of Agent Smiths. Like old war generals, Neo and the original Agent Smith meet in the middle of the road like gentleman. Neo tells him that his reign of terror on the Matrix is over, and a huge battle begins. They fight on the street, in the air and in the facades of empty buildings as the other agent smith?s watch alongside the robots and the humans in Zion. The fight is so evenly matched that Neo and Super-Smith basically tear each other to shreds until they're both barely alive. One interesting thing is that as Neo fights Smith, the other Smiths tend to get hurt too, since they're all connected. Eventually, both of their bodies collapse onto the ground and it looks like they've both destroyed each other. And in a surprise move, Smith gets up to his feet, and picks up a concrete block and starts walking towards Neo to finish him off.

Back in Zion, people can't believe what's going on, that they have to watch Neo die in slow motion. Morpheus tries to jack into the Matrix but can't do it because there are no free connections (the one free one is being used by Neo back in Trinity's ship.) There is a lot of tension, where everyone in Zion cries and says their last words to each other, before The Kid stands up and walks to the front of the crowd. He begins to meditate, and we hear Neo's voice saying "You saved yourself kid." The kid becomes enlightened, and manages to push himself back into the matrix the way he pulled himself out. He walks out of a dark alleyway with a broken piece of metal, smiling. He walks up behind the weak Smith (still making his way towards Neo) and stabs him through the heart, delivering the last blow. All the Smiths fall down dead. He drags Neo's body to the phone and puts his head up to the receiver and Neo disappears, transported back to Trinity's ship.

Trinity kisses him and starts to drag his body outside the ship, back to the green door, but Neo is almost at death. She cries as his heart starts beating slower and slower. All of a sudden, The Kid appears behind her, having gone through the phone as well. "They cured his blindness, maybe they can save him again!" He says, and they push his body through the green wall. Sure enough, Neo falls into tip-top shape on the other side, and walks to rejoin the Robot on the other side.

Sentinels appear, and drop Trinity, the Kid and Neo off back on the platform before the leader. He mentions to them how curious it is that the Kid was able to jump back and forth between Robot and Human worlds, as was Agent Smith. Neo mentions that it doesn't puzzle him, that it's the order of evolution. He mentions that robots and humans are far more connected than they think. That they need each other to live. Humans can't filter water to make it pure, and robots can't make energy without us. The Kid is the next natural step, a being that is useful in both worlds, electronic and physical, and can transcend realities. Neo asks that if the problem with the matrix is choice, why not ask humans to take part? That the virtual world can be as beneficial as the real one. Why not allow them to generate power for you voluntarily, and allow both species to continue along successfully. The Robot makes a sound of uncertainty.

The final shot of the movie begins with the familiar matrix green text, and the world with a semi-blue sky. Neo is standing near a phone booth saying, "I once told you I didn't come to tell you how it was going to end, that I came here to tell you how it was going to begin. Now that the war is over, as we work together, that statement is as true as ever." Neo jumps off the ground and flies into the air, like he does in the end of the first movie, and the camera follows him up to show sentinel and human ships repairing the atmosphere, alongside other flying humans. Cue end credits
(written by Baudrillard)

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krets: Ahhhhhhhhhh thanks that was niggling me

hampsteadgirl: We that is academic really (although I would be interested to know if they scripted/shot alternate endings) - like InI I would have liked something more 'complex' - that ending would have been precitable except everyone predict better endings The second film left a whole range of balls up in their air with mysterious hints and they were never realy dealt with unless this film is setting us up for Matrix 4.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Jesus Kid!!!!!
It's just a movie.
Frag he said to avoid the censor,
Live your life.
Just live your life.

whoa. calm down.



Hopefully that answers your question. Well, not really.

Oracle: You've got the stuff kid, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
Neo: Waiting for what?
Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows?

I just had a quick point, maybe someone mentioned it, I'm in a hurry and didn't read the whole thread. Anyway,
to me, when she says waiting for your next life, she is talking about his next life, which he has after he gets killed by Agent Smith. When he gets shot in the Matrix I, he comes back to life, hence, his next life. I don't think it's really as complicated as Insider makes it out to be, though I really like that thinking Insider, it's interesting.