Preserved Topic: || a glimmer of hope || ala#99 & wasp (Page 1 of 1)

we're getting a glimmer, my friends.

we're getting a message across to people across the world.

read these things. learn from them, and teach them.

the web standards project: fighting for standards in our browsers

a list apart; for people who make websites

please. the net is changing. lets change with it.

Great thought, good idea, but scary as hell! What do I do with all the thousands of pages I have online that are *not* compliant, but instead think with all of those "old hacks" that made the web work for so long? I certainly noone expects me to run through all those old pages and fix them up good, that would take a year! I'm with the movement, but only in spirit at this stage, I fear.

Your pal, -doc-

great idea, wonderful idea...

But, I can't see that it would work for anything other than a personal site. I could not even imagine talking to a client and telling them that I design for browsers that support the set forth standard, and I redirect the rest to a webpage which tells them to upgrade.

It may be a great idea for personal pages, or if a client specifically requests it, but to the bulk of the viewers they could care less if their browser is compliant they just want to see the page, and if they are told they need a 16 to 24 meg download to see the page, they will just laugh and leave.

Like doc said, great idea in spirit, but in the actually application it is a bit lacking.

-mage-

Well, there's the fence to sit on, no?

I just finished the second part of the Balancing Without a 'Net article over at Primal Content...and I'm sort of addressing this issue, on the cusp.

There comes a time when a stand has to be made, for an industry to adopt a standard. There has to be someone to make the adjustment, and stop making the same status quo crap that's been made so far. We've suffered under non compliance for so long, bitching..and now, when we could do something about it, what?..We sit back and get dictated to, and whimper, shudder, and shut up?

There's a forum here about Browsers Sucking...guess why?

I'm not looking forward to reworking, and I'm not saying people should go back and change 400 pages of old code....but if you're going to moan in the oppositie direction you've been moaning for so long, and refuse to change, then sit the fuck down, because the new net is going to eat you.

Yep..the new net....get used to it guys, there's a whole new set of rules coming, and if you don't adapt, you're going to be fodder.

Of course..maybe it's just me..and all the changes going on right now will just work out the way everyone wants with no change....yeah...maybe that will happen.

Peter





ICQ:# 10237808

funny. i just finished up an article for p.c. that also covered that sort of area... i feel i should quote myself now.

"Remember when we knew more about Internet development than our clients? Remember when our input and our choices were valued, appreciated and treated like Gospel? How did it change?

Too many sacrifices. Too much competition?competition that we created. Now we?re sorry about it?"

i think that about covers it. you want to have the clients, i suggest you make your stuff compliant. peter is right, the net is changing. and this is the direction that it is going into. if you don't like it, like i always say, i don't fucking care.

:: smiles widely ::

wouldn't it just be easier to ban all browsers except IE5.5 and up...or to think of it ban all browsers and only keep IE5.5 final...that'll be the day...



www.netmosis.com - we're on the leading edge of a false reality...

mac-ie5 kicks pc-ie5.5's ass.

I tend to use the Kiss method (for my business sites). If they do not work on Amaya, or on 640x480 it is time to work them over again. But the idea of redirecting people who use browsers that are not compliant is business stupid.

The idea is and should be to get your message across to as many people as possible. If you design compliant code odds are that it will work on almost all the browsers.

Yes the net is changing, when the XML browsers become standard all of these concerns all become negated because we will be able to choose what code we want to use and how it should be displayed.

This will allow us complete control over the way that information is presented, and allow for anyone visiting our site to see it how we want them to see it. Hold on for 6 months, hold on for a year and the change will be completed and you will have everything you could have ever hoped for (add 100h of training[reading pratice what and what not] into the equation also).

But I will stick to my guns after the DG assult on my complacence. You can go have your holy crusade against competition and variety, but by the time you get it off the ground everything will be completely different, and you will have pissed off your users for nothing.

If you really want to effect change you should not try and change the users, you have to effect change at the source, the ditributors. Get that slamdango going and then you will have my vote, but until then, I am going to be sitting here designing my sites to work across them all, and keep the users as ignorant about the process as they can be. The more extraneous information they have, the harder it is for them to do what they really want to do (which is of course buying the product/information that I am trying to sell them).

-mage-

little dude..it wasn't an attack on your complacency...it's a commentary on what's coming during that complacency.

it's lovely to sit back and say "no worries, there's time and when it needs to be done, I'll do it"
So let's see with an entirely different DOM for NS 6.0 it looks like you won't be designing with any DHTML, unless you're rerouting everyone to different pages...because if they have 640 res, chances are they have NS 4.03 or so. But what about the 3.0 users? Have you catered to them? And the lynx folk? are your sites text compliant? Do they have all their alt tags in place? Are they Palm friendly? do they work on my 386 with my mosaic browser? Are your images set up with all websafe colours for my monitor?

Fool's Paradise.

I won't tell people to redesign their sites now..but I'll tell them that the change is coming faster than they'd like to lacadaisically think. I understand that you're not graphically oriented, and don't really have worries about layout for content right now mage..that's nice for you. There are people who make a living by doing layout work though. Corporate layout work, where game graphics here and there won't cut it, and a left side menu border just isn't enough. People need to start thinking ahead. HTML just will not cut it anymore. Half the people around here are still using <font> tags for chrissakes.

Lead, follow, or get out ofthe way. Old saying, that one. The ALA article is taking a stand, not mewling after bitching for so long. The fact of the matter is that browsers MUST become compliant..and it's happening. NS cared nothing for backwards compatibility...they don't even support the dhtml aspects of 4.x anymore...wonder why? It's obsolete.....and users are going to find out rather fast just how obsolete.

Flash is an acceptable method of site design for users now...guess why? Did designers wait until Flash was a standard on all browsers? FUCK NO. Someone stood up, made the move, and revolutionized motion vector graphics online. SVG is another step.

Pull head out guys..time to think ahead..or you're just thinking behind..and that's where you'll be left.

As for being business stupid..I'll agree that right now..today, redirection to dowload is not a full answer...but how many more todays are there before it's tomorrow, and the users on fully compliant browser can't read your "kiss" tabled 640 site?

Careful how hard you sit on the fence mage....you might find that the splinters have welded you in place

Good luck nonetheless, hopefully you manage to make the evolution...hopefully everyone here does.

But then, I've been told I can be an optimist.



Peter

<EDIT>Actually, on review, she's a moot point...step up, or sit down, the choice will show. All power to ya, folks. This one's done for me </EDIT>




ICQ:# 10237808

[This message has been edited by DarkGarden (edited 02-17-2001).]

Commonsense dictactes that this is logical. Why should the net not be the professional workplace of those who design and work in it. In my own industry, we have moaned & bitched for years about standards/compliance for many areas of Transport. All European trucking errs from one scource, 'The Treaty of Rome', and yet every country has it's own standards on construction & use, insurance, taxation etc etc....it's no wonder that business's using my industry are at a loss to know why one simple request in their French office has no bearing on that same request in their office in the UK.

From my standpoint, this is no different to when the standards of browser compliance were first proposed by the W3C. Standardisation makes for true professionalism, which in turns means that for those actively involved in the industry, there is a code which endorses your industry as one recognised by others as professional. The net is long overdue being given a status that endorses credence rather than the jumbled up scenario that it currently portrays.

I think it's a great idea.......

<PRACTICING>
<iframe class="ahem">
<big>Please
<a href="http://www.webstandards.org/upgrade/"
title="The Web Standards Project's
BROWSER UPGRADE initiative.">
upgrade</a> to a browser
that supports web standards.
</big></iframe>
</PRACTICING>

...

Well, to argue the other side of the fence, I also remember when I made the decision a few years back to start forcing people to stop using v2.x browsers, and later to make them stop using v3.x browsers. In that situation, my site had a lot of influence, it *is* a personal site, and I *could* make decisions to stop supporting older machines. I'm probably going to do my next series of pages using the newest 6.0 getElementbyID thingy, I was testing with this at work, trying to see how best to do it so it'd work in the top three modes (NS4.x, IE5.x and the newest NS6.x) It was possible, but not easy, not by a long shot! Now, I want to know, MSIE 5.5 supports it's own version of squirrelly DHTML code, does it also support it in the same way as NS6 does? It's not too clear, I write code that uses their silly document.all... syntax, does this browser also support getElementbyId? Can I abandon the document.all thing?

Next, what to do with my Mac? Unlike twIth, I think IE5 for the mac is a horrible travesty, guaranteed to make my machine crash dozens of times a day. NS6 is an OK browser to use, but it's hard to surf when 80% of the pages I'm going to go to don't work, that gets tiresome, don't you think?

So. I'm working on a couple of new sites now, my next domain (hopefully the basisfor my incubator project, if and when!) is Ozoniclabs.com, which will be PINK, heh. May as well do it with a new DOM model too, heh.

Continue discussing this, I want to know more, I know I can have influence, it's just such a tough call to abandon one of the things I'm best at, which is cross-browser compatibilty.

Your pal, -doc-

<postscript>I just had a thought, at what point did I make these decisions in the past? Generally sometime after 50-70% of the viewing public had already made the change. I need to know more about where IE5.5 stands on this whole "compliance" thing, and then I can do my own checks for percentages and such. Help me out here, *convince* me if you're passioante about this, I need figures!</postscript>



[This message has been edited by DocOzone (edited 02-17-2001).]