Preserved Topic: just a slight rant, pay no heed... ; ) (Page 1 of 1)

Just wanted to bring up one thing that has really been bugging me lately.

It seems that more and more people come asking how to acheive a certain effect - which in and of itself is fine of course - and always always asking if there is a tutorial for absolutely *everything* it is that they want to create.

It just doesn't make sense to me....I mean I have used a decent amount of tutorials to learn some techniques, but it just seems to me that lately a lot of people don't want to experiment with things or learn by trial and error anymore.

Obviously people need help getting started, and learning some of the basic techniques and functions, but if you base your entire design career (or hobby or whatever it may be for you) on tutorials, you're not going to get very far. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">

</highhorse>

Just wanted to say that I think you're right. But this forum IS meant to help other people out. ^.^ But there ARE some things you oughta find out yourself, kiddies!

: : M a h j q a : :

'If you always walk in someone's footsteps, how do you wanna pass him?'

I completely agree. Anyways, what fun would it be if everything was done for you? There would be no bragging to your friends that you can do something they can't. Enless of course they can't read..

I'm tired... so I'm probably not making a lot of sense. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">

- Dan -

Very true, I think the problem is people don't view the page creation process from a standard design standpoint (or an artistic one), instead they just want to be able to do what they see on the myriad of cool web pages they surf.

So they read up on a lot of tutorials and start reproducing the same stuff everyone else is. Of course that's probably because it's a lot easier than thinking creatively and using inspiration to its fullest. Maybe part of the problem is that people don't reflect on their new tutorial knowledge by taking the individual steps it teaches, breaking them down and throwing them in the mental mixer.

My first tutorial is actually gonna force people to think: how to harness inspiration for webdesign. I don't know if my method will work for anyone else, but what the hell, it oughta be an interesting departure from the standard tutes out there. If it results in even one future website innovation being dreamed up it will have been worth the effort.

finding decent tutorials is a pain in the rear end.

is it too much to ask for indepth tutorials on using the tools that arent in the tool box? im all for experimentation, but id like a better idea of what the tools i have available do.

what are the advantages of using adjustment layers (which im just now experimenting with) vs adjusting the layer itself? what good are actions? paths? how to effectively use masks? rendering layers?

i could go on. for me.. i wanted to learn those things, not just a bunch of cheap effects. *everyone* and their mom had those sort of things. but no one realy had what i was looking for.

la'dsasha:
Ya know, to get the information your looking for, you could just invest in a book or experiment on your own. You said your for experimentation but you'd like to know what the tools do. How else do you think your going to learn?

DL:
I hope this thread wasnt in response to me asking for help in the dHTML section. I don't think I've ever really asked for a tutorial ever and if I did I probably didnt have a clue what I was doing and needed one. I do agree tho, I think people are too eager to find a tutorial about whatever it is there looking for then to actually learn how to do it themselves. For beginners tutorials are great to actually feel out a program. Without some of Mark, Phong, and the Doc's tutorials I dont think I would have ever discovered what channels was. Once you pass a certain point though, I think its time to experiment and learn from your mistakes.

Jestah
ieJestah@hotmail.com
ICQ - 77252449

i do own 2 photoshop books. im not fond of either one, though they are nice reference for certain things.

my point is, most of the tutorials on the web are very basic and do the "this is the paint brush" type thing or how to make flaming/icy text. most of the books out there are like this, too.

theres too much repeated crap out there in the middle of good texts that are few and far between.

flash books/tutorials suffer the same problems. wont someone create a *useful* guide on actionscript?

Simple as this: people will always look for the quick fix. This is why diet drugs and heroin are popular. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif"> True, the best way to do something is to go and do it on your own, folling with setting and fiddling with that, but most people don't have the time nor patients to do this. The quick fix...

--Stevo--

I've only read one Photoshop book. It was called Wow! or something. Everything else I taught myself just by playing and referencing the help file on occassion.

Now, I love reading tutorials. I mean, I *love* reading tutorials. However, I've never used one straight out of the box.

I think a part of the problem is that a great deal of people have a hard time putting several tips/techniques/tutorials together into one creation. Rust, wires, pipes, cogs, metal -- what good do those do you if you can't put them together for a unique creation? Not just that, but playing around and customizing each little element for your own unique feel?

I'm not saying I'm really that good at putting things together. Just take a look at the simplicity of my sig.

Sasha, I do have a few simple answers for you.

Adjustment layers are great because you can change things on a layer while leaving the layer intact. Adjustment layers also act as a layer mask of sorts so only parts of what's beneath it are affected by it. Adjustment layers can also be clipped (one of my favorite little tips).

Actions are basically macros. One I use frequently goes like this: copy merged, new document, paste, flatten. I can do all those things with one push of a button.

I use rarely use paths. But when I need a curve just right and free-handing won't do, paths are the way to go.

I use layer masks all the time. A simple black & white gradiant on a layer mask is fairly slick. And a little bit of airbrushing doens't hurt either. I use them mostly for extracting images from the background.

What's a rendering layer?

When I read Steve's(?) tutorial over at Guru's Network I was a taken aback a bit. He basically summed up several years of learning the hard way in that little discussion.

Let me give an example. When most people make an interface, they draw the shape and then texture it. Not me. I put the texture on a whole layer all it's own and then clip it onto the interface. Why? That way I can change any part of the interface and not have to re-texure the whole damn thing. I can draw on the interface layer and have the texture appear or disappear as I draw. I can also use a bevel Layer Effect on the interface layer (or any other Later Effect) on the interface layer on the fly just to see how it looks as I go about shaping the interface. It also makes editing later a ton easier (saving full-blown PSDs is a very good habit to get into if not already). Does that make sense to anyone else out there?

What was I talking about? Man, I can't believe I got on a pseudo-rant. Thanks for listening.

With a lot of talk around here about quick fixes and what-not, I'm kind of suprised nobody has mentioned the darkside of actions. I will admit that I have downloaded some, but only for my personal edification. I like to think of them as tutorials via macro.

What ever happened to that Explosion action? As popular as that tutorial/action was on tutorial/action sites, I have never actually seen it used on a site.

yeah, i know most of that stuff now. i do have the photoshop 5/5.5 wow book. its the best one on the market for what i need.

i dont remember how photoshop words it, but rendering a text layer into a normal flat layer was something i didnt know how to do until a few months ago. combining that with the preserve transparency option, you can do lots of interesting things with the text. out of the hundreds of tutorials i have viewed, only one mentioned anything like that.

Well, there's a sad trend that ends up being followed online though.

A lot of the people writing tutorials are barely novices at what they're doing in PS in the first place. They attain some success with a method of making that one "cool graphic" so they write up how they made it ("I stucks this on a layer and hit Eye Candys Fire. It RAWKS!"), and shove it online, hyping the shite out of it.

That wouldn't be the sad part. The sad part is that, that tutorial would get more hits than an inclusive, and insightful piece of work, like Steve's tutorial on the use of Curves over at Guru's Network.

Fanboys (and girls) will always exist, looking to get the quick fix easy graphic of the day. Those looking to attain the skills and the knowledge will dig deeper, and gleen the shite from the shinola <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

Now, having said that, my tutorials over at the GN do indeed focus on a few "effects" that most will find catchy, and probably end up flogging the life out of. However, I want(ed) to lay them out in such a way that people became more familiar/comfortable with more than just the tools they see in their palette, and/or third party filters.


Conclusion: Want the web to have a decent tutorial on adjustment layers? Write one...or ask for one.

Want to see a site that will hold all that progressive/professional information at your fingertips? Watch the GN, and get involved.


Dear Lord I know I just suckered myself into more work soon.... <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">

heh <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">

Peter

~the moron who digs his own pitfalls~



ICQ:# 10237808

[This message has been edited by DarkGarden (edited 30-08-2000).]

Well, I've already consigned myself to more work than I really have time for...heheh.

La'dsasha, I'm putting together several Flash tutorials for usage on GurusNetwork, one of which is an in-depth look at actionscripting. I'll be finished with that by the end of September, hopefully sooner.

But as for the future of tutorials and help on the internet, what GN is putting together is what has been lacking from the net for so very long; and I agree it's been lacking from books too. Many of the books that I've bought have been nothing more than tutorials on cool fx and how to remove any personality from your design. I'm writing another tutorial on spicing up these old fx. Ideas, friends. I'm working with ideas, because that's what people are forgetting that this is all about.

ANd as for Steve's tutorial on curves; read that, printed it out and gave it to one of my graphics team--I respect that article that much. She has since learned more about them, and has taught *me* a thing or two.

So, I guess what this boils down to is that GN is the last effort of a community that is quickly being filled with mindless folk who don't want to learn. Perhaps it has something to do with the average attention span of kids these days. heh

<vent>

OMFGD! Photoshop WOW! is the absolute biggest piece of shit book in the world! I cannot stress enough how totally shitty that book is. It skips the most basic of functions and is harder to follow than German stereo instructions. DO NOT ever read or buy this book! Your better off learning PS yourself.

</vent>




[This message has been edited by The Jackal (edited 30-08-2000).]

You guys -----
I'm actually blushing here! Holy smokes. I am just so tickled that folks are finding the stuff I wrote really and truly helpful. That's just soooo cool! Man, you sit there and peck out these pieces, sort of imagining what you would have liked to have read when *you* were starting out, and it's so neat to find that a responsive cord was struck.

And I don't think the problem of sites with simplistic tutorials is just a matter of attention deficit - the remarkable and unique thing about what is happening with the Gurusnetwork is the collaboration. Different people with different strengths and interests and experience. Much more than any one person, no matter how talented or dedicated, could do by themselves. That and there's a level of maturity both in the writing and the design. And there are truly first rate people doing things other than writing - Doc and DL setting up the design foundations, Pugzly making the server clean and cool - so far it promises to be really very much different than a "one voice" site.

And a lot of what is happening seems to be in response to neary universal irritation with simplistic one-trick tutorials. But you bet I still read those when I see them, I try to do it in my mind's eye if not on a computer; and the odds of ever doing tht exact thing step by step for a client is absolutely zero, but the number of times I've seen someone do something I didn't know you could do makes it worth it! Actually what happens more is bumping into something someone else does differently, and the mental challange of "is their way better or is my way better" is so important to evolving into an efficient and creative problem solver. When I read Dark Garden's puddle piece, I know I would have made the highlight and shadow masks differently - but the exercise of trying an new way and comparing it to how you would have approached it on your own in invaluable.

Even the one-trick tutes are a beautiful way of getting into someone else's head and seeing how they approach a problem. My real irritation is with the tutorials that are a recipe approach, that don't teach you anything about cooking. Sheesh, I can follow the directions on the macaroni and cheese box. You can train a monkey to follow the recipe (but I wouldn't let him hold my Wacom pen!), but has he learned anything about cooking? On the ohter hand, when you have to get supper quick for the kids does it matter if you can cook or follow instructions? Maybe there aren't any bad tutorials - just people who can't or won't see beyond the recipe!

jackel, i agree that it is difficult to follow. however, i think the best thing they have going for them is the full color section of all of the built in filters as well as a few of the commercial ones. thats probably the biggest selling point for me.

i didnt say its the best photoshop book, i just said its the best one ive seen.

Personally I dont know why your complaining about the Photoshop 5/5.5 WOW Book. I've found that pretty much ALL photoshop books cover the some areas. I dont know how basic you want a book to get but Im sure you could have picked up what the book didnt cover. You hafta remember the book isnt going to cover every graphic you're ever going to make. When I bought it I was already pretty advanced in Photoshop, I pretty much just got it for the sake of buying something but I found it to be written fairly well. Ive never had any problems figuring out what the book was saying. That could be because I already knew what I was doing but if you read it over a few times it wouldnt be a problem. This brings me to my next point though. A lot of the problems with people learning Photoshop today is they dont want to invest the time. They want a tutorial on how to make there own interface, logo, and other various graphics. Your probably not going to find a Jackal Interface #1 on the web. Instead of looking for tutorials you should just take the info that you do know and try to expand it by playing around with the program.

Jestah
ieJestah@hotmail.com
ICQ - 77252449

I've taken a good look at the WOW! book, and I was, to say the least, extremely unimpressed.. All of the content was written by, clearly, 3 year olds who had just gotten their first copy of PS and found all the tutorials for cheap FX. The book never even alludes to the idea of experimentation with the ideas; rather is a template within which all graphics should be produced.

...and, I'm sure it's very helpful to many people. I prefer the old way of RTFM. If you're unfamiliar with the acronym, you're also unfamiliar with the idea behind it. Once you understand the functions of what happens, THEN you're welcome to grab a tutorial and gleen some new ideas from it. As far as that book goes, it skims the suface of the basic maneuvers of PS...and that's all.

Forgive me, but it's complete shlock.

...ummm, I don't want to sound mean or anything, but maybe people are asking for tutorials alot on this forum because, well, they jumped on to it from Doc's tutorial page?

Some people are "visual" learners, you have to physically show them how to do things before it sticks.

Hey my opinion about this tutorial thing is:

When I make a tutorial few times then I'm able to use abit that kind of technicue in lot's of different things... I mean the tutorial after making tutorial I'm not going to use the same technicue anymore I might use a bit same kind and then I can also combine lot's of differen technicues.

But I believe that some of the new one's think that tutorials are the only way to learn I don't.

-Time is always against me-

lotiss -- my whole point is that there seems to be a whole lot of people lately who are just about *demanding* that someone give them a tutorial to show them how to acheive whatever it is they want to acheive, without ever just giving it a try themselves. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using tutorials....just that you can't have everything done for and spoon-fed to you <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/tongue.gif">





[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 31-08-2000).]

I miss being spoon fed, my girlfriend hasnt done that in weeks ...

Jestah
ieJestah@hotmail.com
ICQ - 77252449

I would be satisfied if all the ps newbies got a book or two and read it front to back then all the online tuts could be less step by step and simply be a suggestion or walkthrough discussion...i dunno - just babbling....

Wow, cool thread. When I started doing tutorials, I would go into insane detail on the rally difficult ways to do things, then explain the easy way after. Even when I explain everything, I always left something unexplained, while giving enough clues (hopefully!) to figure things out yourselves! it's been popular, and it seems to have been effective. I watch Dark Garden and Steve and DL and others do the same thing, and it really does seem to work, and does seem to hit a cvhord with others trying to learn. I NEVER explain things like a cookie cutter, it's too imprtant to know the *why* of what we do, this gives tyou the option of doing it differently.

I remember when I was starting out with Photoshop 3.0, it was so new, so many weird new things to learn. (Layers? Channels? MASKS?) I used only one book way back then, I don't think it's around anymore, probably been rolled into the new "Classroom in a Book" series from Adobe, but it was called "Advanced Photoshop" by Adobe Press. Man, this book was slick, but it looked *dorky*. Six stupid lessons to do none of the things I wanted to do, but it said it would explain those three annoying new features. And it did. I never looked back, and never really needed another book after that. Days and days followed by weeks and weeks of experimentation, every waking minute was spent trying new things. NOBODY would explain their techniques back then, it was considered "taboo" to break the unwritten rule of the graphic artist, NEVER reveal your secrets! Small wonder I had to learn the hard way, making mistake after mistake, stumbling onto new cool things, forgetting how I did them, stumbling onto another way to do it again. Reverse-engineer9ing any cool effect I saw anywhere, no matter what program or painting style was used to create it, after I while I felt I could do *anything*. Then I'd look around, and someone would do something so cool, I'd never sen the like! Back to the coal mines, learning, poking, screwing up (ooh! That was cool, good mistake, learned something I wasn't expecting!)

The only thing I'm really certain of is that any effect in Photoshop can be reproduced without knowing how it was done, and by using a completely different technique from the other guy (or gal!) I always read the new tutorials, and seldom actually do them in Photoshop anymore, unless it was something so new I couldn't believe it was true. Follow them in my head, yes, if you know the tools and what they do, you don't *need* to follow the steps, you just look for new tidbits of missing knowledge. I learn something new once a week on average, and I'm looking around all the time. (Heck, I learned something new tonight! (See the Javascript forum.)) Poke around, ask your questions, but please, go out and make your own mistakes too! If that bastard (could be me!) doesn't do the tutorial fast enough, hell! Reverse engineer it yourself, and explain the technique to others! You probably found a new way that could help the person who didn't get around to writing that tutorial for you! The ultimate revenge on a bad teacher, teach them back! You'll be a better person for it.

Your pal, -doc-

Some people search to learn, some people ask others people that know. Both ways are jsut as fast and get the job done.