Preserved Topic: How much would you say is a good amount to get paid?

Well, I'm 14, and I just got my working papers... well like 2 months ago. Anyway, I got a job at a webdesigning firm... I work 3 hours a day, 5 days a week.... Anyway, I only get $6 a hour (after taxes) and I basically have a site to work on at all times, and I'm NOT a trainy (they aren't teaching me anything) and I do almost a new site every day. Do you think I should keep the job, or stop (because they are paying me shit!). Since, I wanted to get a job so I could get a really good computer in my room... but I notice it will take like a years amount of work (as long as I don't buy anyhing else with my pay).<P>Oh, forgot to say... I do HTML, graphics in Photoshop, some DHTML and some Javascript (I do the complete sites without help).<P>what do you guys think would be a reasonable pay for someone of my age/experience.<P>-Blitzkrieg
www.designinghelp.com (new design coming)

Ooh, "how much is a good amount to get paid?" Almost a trick question, pick a good number, and double it! At your age, regardless of your skills, getting a well paid job could be tough, lots of prejudice against you on that front, folks think "Hey" He's only a kid, here's a buck, go buy some candy..." When I was at VISI we had a whole bunch of folks, started when they were 15 or so, by the time they graduated high-school they were getting jobs at maybe $50-60k/year. First off, you're only 14, you shouldn't be paying any taxes anyway, hmm? If your folks declare you on their taxes as a dependent, you can talk to the guys writing your checks, and mostly not get any taxes taken at all, 'cept for SSI and such. Let's look at pre-tax maney, OK? Gross pay, you should be making at least $9-12/hour, depending on what they charge for your work. A lot of this depends on where you're living, in Minnesota this would be OK pay, in San Francisco it would be chump-change. I'd talk to your bosses, tell 'em you want a computer at home, they can lease one for cheap and let you take it home, they'd get extra work from you, you'd learn more, and have a computer! Give it a go. More comments from the peanut gallery?<P><IMG SRC="http://www.ozones.com/forum/siggie.gif" border=0>

Well, I already have a computer at home (well actually 4) but only one of them is good (and all of them aren't mine). So I get constantly kicked off the computer. But, where I work is a small place (like 6 people work their... only 3 make websites) and if I asked for a computer they would probably say no... but if they said yes they would give me a shitty celeron like what they have their which defeats the purpose of me getting my own computer.<P>Also, I live in New York... so I would think I should be making more (I live on long island... in a nice town that's not super rich... but is in no way poor).<P>I was thinking about going freelance (they have a few people like that) where they will pay you so much per a site (which they pay people that aren't half as good as me SO much more then me, when they are only a few years older.... like my current pay, I doubt they will pay me great if I go freelance). Also, if I go freelance... I still don't have a computer (My dad would give me a p166 but that crashes to much for me to do what I need to do.)<P>It's just hard to come to a decision. Of course a job is nice... just to get a portfolio. But getting paid $18 (3 hourse) for a site they got $500-$1500 (usually about $1000) just ticks me off beyond beliefe. And, of course I know the fact that almost no one will trust me if I go freelance (where the only place I would get work is from them) I'm just too young for most people. Also, they do have me work on big sites... right now I am working on a redesign for toyota.com (that will be helpful to have in a portfolio I think). But I doubt they will ever give me a raise for a long time... nor do I think I'll get much training... newver have I had 10 minutes their, without work, that I could pick up a DHTML/Javascript book and actually have time to learn more... and when I get home from work I am so tired, I don't want to go on the computer (this exrtemely hurts my gaming talent <IMG SRC="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif"> )<P>I really think going freelance would probably be a good idea if I get enough jobs from them. Since rightnow from 2 weeks of work... ebvery day after school my pay checks are $180 (2 weeks). And 2 weeks is normally 7 small 3 page ($500-$1000) sites, and 1 larger multipage site (more around $2500-$7500). So, one of the small sites payse my waige for like 3-5 paychecks (6-10 weeks) That in my opinion is just wrong.<P>Everyone tells me that the experience is good and you need to build up a portfolio. I know I need to build a portfolio (which I almost have a good one already). The experience... I'm not doing anything extremely difficult (What I do to my site tends to help me learn a LOT more) and they aren't teaching me anything!<P>I just wish I knew some people that had their own designing firms and woulf hire me (cheap... not as cheap as I am currently getting though) to do a simple site when they don't have he time. But I don't think that's happening.<P>-Blitzkrieg<P>If my site ever gets big (which I am hoping since I am putting a lot into it, and there is MUCH more to come) maybe I'll get a few site design offers.

Okay, here's my 2 cents --
1st of all, how much they take in taxes has nothing to do with it -- how much do you *they* pay you?
2nd -- you're 14. Be happy you got a job doing what you're doing. Maybe at the moment you're not learning much, but you have alot of resources available to you, and you're getting experience in a field that interests you, and you are in a position to make connections for future opportunities.<P>What to do? Get that site finished up so you have a viable means of promoting yourself. Post every site you've done in your portfolio, and keep learning! You do good work, but you have nothing but time, so be patient, be a kid. Worry about more competitive pay rates when you have the experience and connections.<P>What care I how time advances? I am drinking Ale today. -- Edgar Allen Poe

...n that Blitzkreig is probably the soundest advice you could get. Learn, learn and still learn; after that Promote yourself silly, at some point there may come a time when someone realises who's designing their site(s), 'n then you may find xmas come early.

Heh...I'm 16 and the Webmaster of my school's website. I get paid $20.00............. A Day!!! But, it's not like I care...It's money, and I'm gaining experience. When I finally learn to do good HTML, I may just post my own site.<P><P>/_-=SKAARJJ=-_\
Lepricosa...The Leprosy Ointment. For when your not half the man you used to be.

Well, skaarjj, I work 3 hours a day, so you are making more then me!!!!!!!!<P>-Blitzkrieg<p>[This message has been edited by Blitzkrieg (edited 22-05-2000).]

Actually blitzkreig, I'm from Australia, and I think that you're from America. With the state of the Australian Dollar at the moment, I'm still making less than you<P><P>/_-=SKAARJJ=-_\
Lepricosa...The Leprosy Ointment. For when your not half the man you used to be.

Oh< i figured you ment UD dollars.<P>-Blitzkrieg

I am 21 and go to college. I got a job this summer with an ISP. I do webpage design and graphics (and a whole lot of Tech support on the phone) I don't live in a very large city and don't expect to get paid too well. My job does treat me very well though. I make $7.50 US an hour and work 40 hour weeks. But I get a free cell phone with 5,000 min a month free anywhere in Utah(where I live). Also, I have my own key to the office and can come in anytime I want to work or play. I am happy with my pay because it is more than my last job telemarketing which everyone should know, SUCKS! I am doing exactly what I want to be doing and I'm still not finished with school. So, Blitz, I guess what I'm saying is: You need to figure out if Your job is worth it to you. I'm sure you could work 40hr/week at McD's and make enough for that new computer a lot faster. Is it worth it to you?

Also, this is the first time in years that I have had only one job. I was working 4 jobs and going to school full-time at one point. Maybe you could find a weekend job or something else that would work around your schedule. Just a thought <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Bl00k www.bl00k.com

Like Doc said b4, if you charge cheap then people won't have reason to think you're good.

Go for the gusto dudez!

Well, I really am not happy at what I get paid, since I could work at the library, anf get $6 an hour, and get $12 an hour on weekends (ehich at my current job, I work some weekends and still make $6 an hour).

Also, just today I got pissed off, because they yelled at me because I had no work (I told then, and they said they would give me something)... but they didn't give me anything, so for a half hour I was trying to learn some more Javascript.

Anyway, if things don't get %100 better next week.... I QUIT!

-Bob Monteverde

(I just think it's bull-shit that I do 2 $1,000 websites a day, and meet with customers all the time, and only fucking get $18 a day!)

blitz, please give us(me) some 1k$ urls, i just have no idea how this thing really pays, thanx

There is no spoon...sort of speaking

heh, i like the comment earlier about chump change i got a chuckle out of that. sad, but definitly true....i like living in the bay area.

Chris... I really don't know too many of the addresses currently... but I got the $1000 price from their website that lists pricing, (though the site is down due to change in software.... but it should be up within the week, we are just changing databases) But I guess they are more like $600 websites... since they get paid a lot for the advertising they do.

-Blitzkrieg

When I do webpages for the company I work for we bill $30/hour US. I only get paid $7.50 or so for my work. I'm not complaining though, I have a wonderful job and I'm doing something I like. Just thought I would post this to show you what it is like in other places.


www.bl00k.com

It seems to me that if you are doing a site in 3 hours and your done then it is hard to get paid the big bucks. 3 hours is just enough time for me to get my thoughts arranged. (I'm being sarcastic) Sites take many hours of tweaking and proofing to get right. If I were you I wouldn't complain. That isn't too terrible of a job. If you are doing it for the money then quit. You should be doing it b/c you love to work with computers and love making webpages and graphics. I know I would take it. You don't know any of the addresses of the pages you have done? Are there any pages?

Minut, I know webpages take a while, and if they would allow me too, I would do the best I could on every website... and I do know one address (the others I'm not sure about right now, but I can post later), but to tell you the truth, I did not make the design of this page (well, I did a bit) because when I started they wanted me to finish the page.... and well, this page took a long time because the bitch lady kept haveing me change it, over and over again (she changed her mind many times!). Anyway, the original design of this site I really don't like (I didn't make it) so I would rtather not post it <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif"> Also, I do a lot of websites that is hosted by: longislandguide.com (the don't have their own domain names). Also, I think I might know a few more that I have done, and I like... next time I go to work I'll get the URLs.

-Blitzkrieg

What is the name of the firm that you work for?

web4you

I make $20 an hour for playing online games like UO and AC. lol.

Before joining the gaming community websites I work for now, I worked for a small but professional webdesign firm doing local websites for small businesses in the area. Law Offices, Real estate agents, uniform companies, things of that nature. The websites were usually made up of A main page, complete custom navigation, and six to twenty pages of content, including photos and such. Most sites had email forms or other small PHP scripts, and most included some javascript work for mouseovers and such.

Although most of our sites went on a quoted price (half up front, of course), we used an hourly rate to figure out the quote so that we could use it as a guideline to budget our time. As the lead graphic designer (out of two of us... *grin*) I would sit down and cut out a rough estimate of how long it should take for us to complete the project. Our scripting guy would do the same, as would our HTML monkey. We add it all together, multiply by a dollar amount per hour, add some miscellaneous stuff, and voila! one quote. Just as an aside, originally we were charging $60 an hour for Graphic design, $45 an hour for scripting, and $35 an hour for HTML/Misc work. (which is cheap! by today's standards) Keep in mind that this was a larger business, and not an individual, which meant that roughly $20-25 an hour of that on average really filtered down to my pocket.

For small contract work such as custom logo design or Advertising design, that sort of thing... Most of our projects were in the $90-$120 an hour range. Be insanely picky about quality, and you can fairly name your price.

For you... a single younger guy, I would say shoot for about a $10 an hour goal. Make reasonable expectations about how long it will take you to finish the project (and add a few hours for padding). Dont be afraid to ask for what you want, but don't get too cocky about what price you think you should demand. You are young, and have a lot of room to grow. Start off small, build great quality websites that you would be proud of to call your own (if you wouldnt use it, dont ship it), and soon the money will come to you. Just make sure the money isn't the only reason you're doing it... the less you think about money and the more you think about your love for the design, the more successful you'll be. People can sense passion, and they pay top dollar for it.




'Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense'

Well, this is a tricky question.

I'm sorry if the many remarks at your age puts you down, but unfortunatly that's the grim reality.. The stigmata of young age seems similar to the one laid upon you if you do not have a high degree of education, no matter how skillful you are.

I'm working at a global computer company in the "oh-so-wired-slash-wireless" Stockholm, Sweden having total responsibility for a BIG site with +1M sessions a month. I am in charge (informally) of hiring, project managing, international contacts, some of the designwork and so on. The only problem is that I do not have any higher education, but tought myself instead. Only problem is that you only get so far being a computer-geek and a bookworm. I lack the diploma!!

I'm 28 and I make 'bout US$ 17/hour before tax. If you're not familiar with the swedish taxes, I can inform you that I get to keep around 10$/hour.

I - for one - would have killed for having your opportunity at your age, but by that I'm not saying you should take any crap they give you for being young.

Money isn't everything. If you like what you do, and the people you work with, the value of money seems to shrink <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">
On the other hand, if they treat you bad, stick around 'til you find something better and then leave. They usually realize your true worth then <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

And finally:
- Don't give them the finger when you leave!
I know the US is a lot bigger than Sweden, but I've learned that the business is smaller than you think. Good contacts easily multiply your market value. Good Luck!!

[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 14-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 14-09-2000).]

Well, not to insult you,, but you really et paid very little.

The only reason why I stay is the people are good, and, well, they kinda stopped giving me too much work. And I should be able to ask for a raise soon (I would have early, but I took a long time off, and ork 3 days a week now... since I do have a life.)

The other good thing is, I can't get fired easily. I am the only employee that really understands how websites work, and knows a lot on how to make pages run fast, look correct, etc. (Well, that and the fact that no matter how little I'm doing, I'm still making them a ton of money).

-Blitzkrieg

I still think that you are just pulling your own chain.

I know I'm paid very little, and do not for one second think I'm going to settle for this <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

The point is that I'm slaving away here earning a crappy salary that is noway in sync with my work for the sole purpose to get experience from a big company. I'm on my way to get a manager position (lo-key, but what the..) and that will look nice in my resume. A manager title at this company will probably get me further than my present title, or if i switch company now.

And then I'll be able to earn me enough money to take long vacations to sit at home and paint and do graphics just for fun.
Mohahahaha!

Or one should perhaps just move to the valley...

-= nimraw

Hmmm.... well I'm going to be a manager soon (sorta).... the place I work at is very small (like 8 computers total.... they were going to buy a lot more room and computers, but someone beat them to it.) Anyway, they are alway hireing (mainly because they get a big turnovver since they pay shit... well, for example one guy i work with is a graphics designer... graduated college... but he makes lik $19 and hour.. he 's only there for trainging) ok, back to my point... I think they hired 1 more person, and since I'm part time, that person will use my computer.... BUT they want me to still work there (mainly becaus ethey think if I don't work there for like a month, I'll get another job....) SO, soon all I will have to do is sit around, and answer a few questions... and maybe fix someone shitty HTML (Me, and the main Boss are the only 2 people that know a lot about websites.) Anyway, once I get that position, I can ask for a raise, and not do as much work (not to mention I can work whenever I want) ...So thats pretty good <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

-Blitzkrieg

hey dude your only 14 .. i'd be fucking happy if i had a job as a webdesigner when i was 14 .. i'm 17 and i cant get a job as a webdesigner.. sucks bigtime .. so dont complain :-) lol .. you know that if you quit you wont be able to get any other work ..hmm dont take this to harshly but be greatfull for what you got .. haha lol those drugs i had turned me into a church dude whatever there called :-) hehe

-maruman-

Problem solved. A guy I work with is starting his own business... wants me to work for him. He'll double my pay right away (to $13) and will pay me based on the site.. better the site more I get payed. Should be great.

-Blitzkrieg

Hey, now you make more than me, and I am twice your age. No fair! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/tongue.gif">

Good luck with your new job <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Hey ZOX!

You forget wich country you live in <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

We may have low salaries, but at least we've got high taxes <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Good luck Blitzkrieg!

<e>damn typos</e>

-nimraw
If you can't convince, confuse!

[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 26-10-2000).]

lol, yes i forgot about that.

That is really the only good thing with the high taxes - to be able to tell American friends about it, and hear them oooh and aaah. Makes you feel special <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

I only have to endure it for some six more months though, until I am able to move to the US. (though I must say that the high taxes isn't exactly the main reason for moving <g> )

oh yes. We've got a really special life..ROFL..

What are going to do in the US. Just hopping across the sea to work or is it personal <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

Just curios, since I'd like to work in the states myself for a while just to try it out..

oO(if it isn't the taxes, it *have* to be something else <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Best of luck anyway!



-nimraw
If you can't convince, confuse!

Well, my fianceé is American, and so I am moving there more permanently and getting married <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

She actually is sending in the applications for the visa TODAY, so all there is left now is to wait (and of course to deal with a lot of other paper work that needs to be done...).

And moving to the southern US I will not only get away from the Swedish taxes, but also the cold winters <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">
Though in reality I would endure all taxes and weathers just to be able to be with my sweetheart <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/redface.gif">
(ok, so that is mushy, but it is also the truth <g> )

poor zox <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

my sweetie lives in canada. i just gotta wait for my fbi paperwork crap, and i got my passport today.

question?

it I were working alone... REALLY alone....just me and my puter
how many hours do ya think it'll take to get a job done?

a standard 7 page 'Who we are and what we do" site...

tskull@techie.com">
"A kleptomaniac is a person who helps himself because he can't help himself." --Henry Morgan
ICQ: 67751342

I just did one in a week about like that, probably about 6-8 hours a day. Say 40 hours then? That doesn't include the conceptualizing time though, which you must charge for if you do this for a living and nothing else. That probably takes 40 hours itself, it's extremely variable though and has a lot to do with the direction you get from your client.

No matter how weird you feel about charging for time spent "just thinking" about the site, charge anyway, that's where most of the good work is done anyhow.

call me crazy and an over-achiever, but a standard 7page web site (emphasis on standard), I wouldn't quote more than 20 hours.

That's if you're doing a fixed-bid account. but if you're planning on doing an hourly one, pick a number between 1 and 300, divide it by 24, multiply by 3 and then divide by the square root of your mothers birth-year. That number (squared and divided by 3) will be the hourly charge you give them.

*sigh*

I go for fixed bids whenever I can--'cuz I often finish them sooner than I bid. WHen I have to do hourly (perish the thought) I can't let myself go for less than $70/hr.

just my two cents.

Keep in mind that I've got experience and years in the field. Adjust the numbers as necessary.

(edit) I put one too many zeros on that hourly range! $700/hr is high even for me! (/edit)

[This message has been edited by twItch^ (edited 03-11-2000).]

Have you ever got stuck for inspiration on a fixed bid? The more you try to come up with something, the more the idea flees in this case. It's *almost* funny.

Yup, I just realized I also had 12 print ads to do in that week as well with not a lot of help on the ad text so the 40 hrs is probably high. But I was in no way kidding about the 40 hrs contemplating the design, I got stuck in a major way.

Well I live in South Australia and I've been doing webdesign since December 1998

what started as a final year of school it project, turned into a casual/parttime job for my Uncle designing and maintaining his site for his company.

It's a small family business, seven employees if you include me (I havne't done any work in around six months.

Here's the Url: Http://www.justit.com.au

The design is two years old, the site still has many broken links and hasn't detoriated and become out of date. The pricing section (what pages are active) runs on a self learnt and created cgi script. Everything is still outdated though.

That was my humble beginings, my uncle couldn't afford me full time and I wasn't qualified to do anything else around the office other than build new computer from parts and small other tasks, so I only made $5 an hour.

To me that wasn't too bad.

My cousin rang me up around 5 months ago and said that her company wanted a website and that they had asked around and the lowest bid they had was $1500.

Thinking I was just doing her a favour I said yeah I'll do it or $750. That's probably about $300 or so US. It was six pages and at the first I thought $750 was a pretty big amount of money, well it was three weeks of pay at the supermarket I work at.

So yeah it was a ordianry who we are what we do with a little glitz. Six pages. Took me a week to get a good design and start the html, the site was complete in two weeks.

Then came the changes with my cousin ringing me up every second day when they decided that they wanted thing moved around or didn't like a certain something. Ended up taking me around a month all up. $750 didn't really seem so much after all, then I had the tax taken out of it. (ouch!)

About a month ago she rang me up saying they wanted the wording changed and asked how much I would charge. I figured that I could get it all pretty much done in a couple of hours so I said $200.

What was supposed to be a couple of hours of work turned into about 50 so far, doing little changes, then rehauling the structure so that it was in frames cos that's what they wanted. then adding real audio then removing real audio because apparently Realplayer isn't free for download anymore???

Then they realised they had forgotten to put in their abn abd the PTY LTD and a whole lot of other stuff...

My cousin rang me up and said just keep a track of how many hours you've taken and we'll work something out.

I have also been working on another site for an accountant, he wanted about 20 pages of text and is going to add some software for online loans and other stuff.

I quoted him $125 a page and that seems pretty reasonable for the time I spent on it so far.

Anyway once these two sites are done and buried, I'm going to launch my own website and have a fixed price for per page text and content and an hourly rate for graphic design which seems to consume the majority of the time.

I think I've learnt very quickly the follies of undercharging, it's always going to be more work than you think it will.

Though working with the knowledge that it "is going to take longer than you think," is a good business ethic, I suppose, that is an underhanded way of doing business, in my humble, yet biased and pretentious, opinion. It just takes time for you to become accustomed to quoting bids. Nothing too scary. Just be more accurate, damn you. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Grubby... no insult, but it really seems like you need to learn a bit more.. if its taking oyu so long. I make a 6 page site with a good design in about 1 hour or 2 (if I am having problems thinking of a design)... and even if they are really picky, and don't like it... it still comes out to about a maximum amount of 6 hours for a site like that... and thats with a customer that bitches a lot and doesn't have any idea what they want, and what is good. And no matter how many wordchanges on a 6 pafe site.. it still would take max 1 hour... and if they make a ton of small changes, It takes like 5 minutes a change normally... shouldn't take too long. (Even witha design that has to be fitted and stretched manually)

-Blitzkrieg

No insult, you're right.

I am still learning and I have a lot more to learn yet. I'm only 19 so I have a lot more to learn in terms of everything business oriented, not just the process of designing pages.

I also have a job in a supermarket and I'm permanent part-time, so I get a fixed amount of hours per week (around 25) however often I'm called in on to do extra work and it leaves little time to do webdesign. If the money wasn't so good and the job wasn't so secure (and close - 2min walk) I'd probably leave.

Your comments are always welcome. I wouldn't post if that weren't the case.

Grubby

Thanks for the tips and historys, guys. I'm gonna design for a living because I like it. When I can design quality with blitzkreig's speed, I'm going to charge flexibly based on hours, features, and size. I will charge hourly for updating existing content. There will be m*** details involved, but I'll work those out. I'll need m*** experience bef*** I can consider twitch^'s advice. Luckily, I create, negotiate, execute, and enforce contracts for a living. All I know is, a man has to do what he enjoys, for a living. Otherwise no amount of money matters.

Thanks to all for giving me an idea of what needs to be considered.

...swept out through the cracks beneath the door...

Hmmm...more australians are joining this board. I do graphic design for a lving at the moment, mainly photoshop, things where I don't have to use transparency. Web Design I have little to no idea about, and my web-page designs always turn out crap, but my graphics don't.

Wow...more Aussie's joining the board.

This censoring thing is going nuts. it censores the word M-O-R-E (see...more), wondering if it's is malfunctioning and is supposed to be doing gore, like for Al Gore.


<edit> Dammit, now I look like an idiot, it isn't doing anything...does it still so c*****n? </edit>



Executing a person who has done something wrong as an example to others is often a couse of action that leads to ordering the last person to cut their own throat as an example to themselves - Terry Pratchett

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 11-11-2000).]

Whoa! long thread!
Been moved to http://www.ozones.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/000044.html

Neato Dorito!

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342