Preserved Topic: critiques please... (Page 1 of 1)

I've created the following image in 3DSMax R4 and used the Doc's Handson Tut for Lighting FX2 for the lettering...I would like some critiques...I would really like to make this look good so ....lemme have it with both barrels! I can take it, dammit!

the image

[This message has been edited by Boudga (edited 04-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by twItch^ (edited 04-25-2001).]

I would like to displace the Orb technologies logo in the bottom part of the reflection in the Orb....can anyone provide any ideas how I could do this

Looks fine, but the text is fuzzy. Fix that.

The "concrete" is also fuzzy and unrealistic.

As for the sphere reflection, layout the whole concrete square first, then render the shpere with that square as the floor level. The sphere should pick it up.


stephen

[This message has been edited by twItch^ (edited 04-25-2001).]

Since you said 'both barrels', I'm going to be a bit more critical than I normally am. Apologies.

You've got a shadowfight going on bigtime. The shadow of the sphere implies that the 'concrete' is a ground plane (horizontal, with the camera aimed at a downward angle). The white line inset from the edge of the image, however, has a dropshadow that strongly implies that the concrete is a vertical square (parallel to the screen). The text doesn't have any shadow at all.

You could rotate the concrete plane to vertical, and level out your camera. This would make the plane seem like a backplate for the logo. You could then add a dropshadow to the text to match the dropshadow on the inset line.

The other option would be to leave the concrete as a ground plane, and make the shadows for the inset line and the text into perspective shadows, to match. Basically, the inset line's shadow would be as it is for the bottom line only, the shadows for the side lines would angle sharply to the right, and the shadow for the top line would be far to the right (and probably lower than it is). Perspective shadows on both the inset line and the text would force the eye to believe the concrete is a ground plane.

The sphere's reflection seems too light to me. Try applying a pure black diffuse/ambient color to it, then turning the reflection map down from 100 until it looks right.

The easiest way to make the sphere reflect the text would be to bring the text into the 3D scene. You might try creating a plane in the 3D scene, and applying an image with the text as a texture map. If you turn specular all the way down, you can apply a photoshop alpha channel from the text layer as the opacity/transparency map, so only the part of the plane with the text on it will be visible (a technique called clip-mapping).

If you need any tips on any of these suggestions, I'd be glad to help.

why does that remind me of something?

the reflection in the sphere makes it look a bit strange. maybe you can add some dirt or noise.

is there some way to tell Max to mask the orb only in the alpha channel of a tif you render?

Something about that orb just doesn't look right. In fact I didn't realize that the ground was reflecting off of the orb. Shouldn't it be further down on the orb, closer to the actual ground?

Das, correction.. there is a shadow on the text, but it's an inner shadow... but you are right again, the angle of the shadow is not the same as the shadows on the orb or the white border.

Good idea though, just some details to work out

-D

ok I've stripped this image down to ground plane and orb....am I on the right track with this image?

Well, the biggest problem I see is that the object in the center does not look like an orb. It looks like a slightly convex disc.

2nd to that, as has been mentioned, is the general fuzziness. The background is too soft and fuzzy, which gives your text a fuzzy kind of feel.

And then, the shadow conflict....

I actually think this would be easier done in Photoshop, but that's just a personal thing.

As far as displacing the text to act as a reflection in th e'orb', go here: http://www.gurusnetwork.com/tutorials/photoshop/displace1.html (don't know 3DSMax...)


{{edit - you posted that last one while I was posting....

well, the background is a big improvement, and the reflection at the top of the orb is quite nice....but the bottom half is way out of whack.....it looks like the orb is cut in half and there is some weird metaphysical disturbance beneath it....

As I said, I don't 3DS, so Ican't offer any specific advice...but the reflections just don't seem to be working out the way you intend.
/edit}}



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 04-25-2001).]

it's very difficult for me to get the ground plane to be very sharp in Max....why is that?

The only thing I can think of that would cause it to be fuzzy would be because the map is a jpg photo and it isn't tiled. The photo is 1024x768 pixels. However, max doesn't work in pixel sizes until you render it, right? Everything in design mode is line art and fully scalable.

if i were to post the max4 file I'm using, would anyone care to play with it and see if you can improve on it?

quote:

---

Das, correction.. there is a shadow on the text, but it's an inner shadow

---

Difference in terms. In the 3D world, that would usually be called shading, not a shadow. Since the text is not actually resting on the ground (it would be in perspective if it were) it should cast a shadow on the ground.


Re: the new image. The shadow doesn't look dark enough, considering it's pretty much a 'high noon' kind of setting. Shadows tend to be intense when the sun is high overhead.

The reflection is much more believable, but it's now easy to 'lose' the ball in the background. You might try blurring the reflection a bit, to simulate worn chrome. That would also clear up some of the aliasing on the horizon line, without resorting to supersampling. Placing the sun more toward the horizon, so the shadow is at a steeper angle, would also help make the sphere jump out.

The ground is working great. The texture fading in the distance very clearly shows that it's a ground plane.

You do have a problem with the sky map; the seam is right at the top of the sphere. Looks kind of wierd.



[This message has been edited by Das (edited 04-25-2001).]

one thing I'm noticing is that the orb does not have the correct shading....shouldn't their be a lot of shade at the bottom of the orb and bright on top....it seems like the orb is actually absorbing light and dark....or maybe ignoring it would be a better explanation....

das....great post! I'm all over it...I'll be back in a few minutes with some changes...

how can I darken the shading? all my shadows are to grey...

If your shadows aren't dark enough, and you're only using one light, you've probably got the ambient level too high on some materials. Max (and most other 3D apps) sets ambient very high by default. I usually turn ambient all the way down on just about everything, and add more lights where things are too dark.

If you want to post the Max file, I'll take a look at it, time permitting.

here's the max file

here's another render with the atmosphere map blurred and the ambient turned down...

image

in my opinion that last image sucks compared to the previous image i posted...

I think the last one is the best so far--most realistic.

Are you sure you have raytracing on? It looks like your shadows aren't reflecting at all off the chrome.

THe basic chrome texture has a very lof diffuse, very high reflection, and make the base color a dark grey. The reflection is what will lighten up the chrome.

I'm fairly certain max has is a Fresnel shader/effect. What this does is lets you adjust the amount of reflection and diffuse and other properties based on the incidence angle of the object. So if you were looking at the edge of the chrome ball it should have more specularity. medium diffuse, and more reflection, to give the ball an edge.

Also you might add another light or 2. The main light should be throwing shadows and have the spec hotspot like it does now, but also add another light to the other side of the camera, make it a little bit blue, about 50-60% brightness and turn off specular and shadows. This will simulate the ambient light of the sky.

Another thing you might want to consider, and this is completely subjective, but that chrome ball coming into contact with the cement would put a few little scratches and dings on the ball, wouldn't it? I like to add variations like that to all my surfaces, it adds a bit of interest to them. I would break up the specular and add a very small, slight bump to it.

Here is an example of what I talked about above.
http://www.badsun.com/images/chrome1.jpg

-Electro www.badsun.com

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 04-26-2001).]

Boudga, the first image you posted is what you are shooting for correct? If so I would put the camera higher above the orb and pointing down. As you have it now the camera is very close to the ground, and that makes your reflection look really wierd because you can see a lot of the ground plane. If you were looking at an orb while you were standing above it (like your first image suggests) then you wouldn't see much of the ground plane, and more of the sky in the reflection.

-D

Ok, I didn't have a whole lot of time (four hour meeting today), but I fixed a few things:
image
max file

You didn't include the ground texture map, so I just used one of the cement textures that came with max.

Issues I tweaked:
- The ambient light for the scene was very very high (208). This eliminated any chance for darkness (such as shadows). I dropped it to 0
- The light was at half intensity (to balance the very high ambient). I pumped it back up to full. Since that blew out the specular highlight on the sphere, I dropped the intensity on that.
- The ground plane is very large, so an untiled image is too low a resolution. I had to tile the cement 15x15 to get it to look good. Since your texture is 1024x768, you'll probably have to tile it about 10x10 to get it to look good. This may cause problems if it isn't tilable. As you can see, the cement I used is tileable, but it's kind of obvious that it's tiling.
- Added a camera (I like cameras)
- Turned off the luminescence on the sphere, and added a very faint blue diffuse.
- Replaced the reflect channel (which was a flat grey) with a fresnal map with an IOR of 20. This is about right for chrome. The fresnal map is designed for accurate reflections.
- Switched the shadow from raytraced to a shadow map, then blurred the edge of the shadow a little.
- Added a single omni light above the scene, that's set to ignore the sphere. This light is what stops the shadow from being completely black. You can adjust the intensity to make the sphere's shadow darker or lighter. It should be a little blue, to simulate skylight, but I forgot to adjust the color :/
- Turned on the antialiaser in the raytrace material, and added some blur. This makes it look just a bit worn, and eliminates the aliasing on the horizon in the reflection. Since this bumped the render time from 18 seconds to a minute and a half, I switched it off before saving the file. You can play with it with fast renders, then turn on the antialiaser for high quality renders. The option is in the 'Raytrace controls' in the material for the sphere, and you need to check the checkbox next to 'Multiresolution Adaptive Antialiaser'. If you click on the '...' button, you can change the blur settings. If you make the reflection more blurred, the 'chrome' looks more worn.

I agree that you might want to recompose the shot to be at more of a down angle. This would also let you shrink the ground plane, so you could tile the background less.

Gotta head for home now, I'm late



[This message has been edited by Das (edited 04-26-2001).]

Das, that's simply great! looks so realistic! incredible!

I ask again...is there some way to tell Max to mask the orb only in the alpha channel of a tif you render?

doh! now my client just want's a metallic looking orb without reflection...after all that tweaking! Geez I could probably do that solely in Photoshop.

This thread is acting wierd. My last response is sometimes there, sometimes not.

Anyhoo, Boudga, when I need an alpha mask for just one item in a scene, I usually hide everything but that item, do a quick render (no raytracing or anything), and save the image to a 32-bit TGA. Then I composite the alpha from that image to the actual full render. Lets you do all sorts of cool tricks.

that's what I did...i hid everything but the orb and rendered to a tiff

my client is liking this image the best...

the white bkgd really tends to exagerate the jaggies...unfortunately

[This message has been edited by Boudga (edited 04-27-2001).]

Maybe you could make a selection from the alpha channel, contract it a pixel, feather it a pixel, and delete outside?

I've done that before and it really cleaned up the edges. You lose the outermost pixel or so of the object, but that shouldn't be too noticable on an image that large.

Another thing to try would be to select the alpha channel, gaussian blur it a bit, then do the levels trick to get a sharp (but not jaggie) edge. Make sure the final alpha is just a hair smaller than it originally was, then delete outside (losing the outermost pixel or so, again).

What does this client want this for (well...I know what they want it for, but is there going to be any advertising on film or video?) I recon it would be fun to make a short anim out of this.