Preserved Topic: Hmm, should this forum even exist?

It did seem to round out the top level; coding, coding, coding, and stupid HTML, heh. This is just an experiment for right now, please let me know if you think this is a worthwhile forum to have here, this now rounds the page out with 3 groups of 6 forums, which is the most I'd ever like to see here, heh.

Your pal, -doc-

(edit: Hmm, seems like I only have 5 in the Maximum Security section! Ah well, room to grow... :-)



[This message has been edited by DocOzone (edited 01-18-2002).]

The forum makes sense but I'm wondering how many straight HTML questions get asked (they tend to turn up in DHTML or 'Site Reviews'). Well we'll see.

Emps

why not?
i mean, we already have everything else...

yes, and it's often enough, that I find myself searching for a little something HTML/basic Javascript that I just can't seem to find and never know where to ask in...
So, yes I think this is a good idea.

yours,

Tyberius Prime

i think this one is not worth an own forum.

let's add " - HTML" to that "XSL - XHTML - DOM" thing.

good idea, ey?

or...... put the css here, and join the 4 major issues in two different groups, leaving the others where they are

this is just my opinion, but doc listen:

i for once think, that too much forums are creating some kind of chaos. i mean really interested people may want to check out all new threads, so they have to browse through all forums, which might be a lot of work and sometimes you dont know where you already have been. same when you are checking for replies to your posts.

it all would be much simpler, if we have less forums there. i mean, there are some which dont have much traffic at all. example: outpatient counseling, most topics which would belong there are actually discussed in the ozone forum. and in the print graphics, there isnt really much goin on....

but as i said, just my 2 euro-cents.

Forum numbers does come up often here and I'm not sure if there are any right and wrong answers. Have a look at DevShed's forums:
http://forums.devshed.com

Granted they have more members but the number of forums has sort of grown with the member increase (I'm not sure which came first like the chicken and the egg). I would suggest we see how things go and we can expand or contract things as the posting frequency allows.

Emps

HTML should be in the same forum as CSS, no matter what. After all, the Platonic ideal is for both technologies to be completely dependent on one another. Since XML is more server-side, perhaps XML questions are best in Server-Side Scripting. "DOM" is just ECMAScript, right? That falls into the dHTML category. Those questions should stay in that forum. Then the former All Browsers Suck becomes HTML, XHTML, CSS. Those are the only things that aren't already covered in the current (pre-today) forums.

I don't have an opinion on the number of forums; I'd just like to see each forum defined with as little overlap as possible.

agreement.
my suggestion:

one forum for non-server side scripting
and one for server side scripting.

I'd go along with that suggestion - it makes sense (apart from the server side uses of XML it could become a 'serverside code that isn't DHTML' forum).

Emps

Yeah, I say, either combine this, the XML-...-DOM, and the DHTML/JS forum all into one, or just combine this and the XML-...-DOM forum.

client side and server side!

Jason

edit: punctuation is important

[This message has been edited by JKMabry (edited 01-18-2002).]

I think we should have this forum because DHTML is different from HTML because DHTML deals with javascript. If people are new and are starting to learn HTML the old forum wouldn't be the best place to ask because of all the DHTML and Javascript threads relate to... So I would love to help people in just an "HTML" forum. Sounds good to me Doc!

[edit] oh and yes that was asking to be a mod for this forum if it will exist [/edit]





[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 01-18-2002).]

I think this forum is of use because there are some little html things i forget everyonce in a while. Like little commands to go in the <meta> tag, or <style type="text/css"> or how to make a background stick to back whie scrooling scrolls over it (i figures that out ).
Just give the forum some time for people to post messages, I wouldn't be surprised that within a month it gains some more posts.

quote:

---

What's Your ID?

---

complete waste of bandwidth imho. fwiw.

I think the client/server side forums are a better idea, but you pay the bills 'round here Doc.

--------------
cheers.jay

I was always under the impression that 'DHTML/Javascript' was redundant.

DHTML is simply a compound concept which means writing HTML, CSS, Javascript (which uses the DOM) code.... they are one and the same...

...and in the end, they all need to come together for the page to properly function. What does Javascript do that is not basically modifying the HTML commands or the style of that HTML?

What is HTML without styles? Pretty fucking boring, that's what. If you chose never to play with the colors on a webpage or to modify the border around a table, do so at your own peril. Keep in mind that attributes in tags are just simplefied styles.

...and go ahead and try to use javascript on a page without using the DOM. Let's see how far you get on that lemon..

Everything that is downloaded by the client and processed by the browser works harmoniously with one another.

Everything that a server has to process before sending to the client to download is called backend. This doesn't work as harmoniously as do the front-end scripts, but that's why we have separate threads.

My constant argument to keep the number of forums down is not simply a matter of front-door screen real estate. It's about clarity. Users (us plebes *g*), especially new ones, need to be able to rapidly pick out which forum their query belongs in.

For example; if scriptKitty17 has a query about a snippet of javascript that dynamicly changes an image and moves a layer, can you quickly decide whether it's a question about Javascript, Simple HTML (after all, the first gut-reaction is that it's an <IMG> problem- that's HTML), a CSS/DOM problem (the layer and the image 'path'), or god knows how many other variables are thrown into the mix?

Confusion rapidly ensues. So in the nail-bitting decision moment, where do these questions end up? Once in a blue moon, they'll land in an appropriate forum, but most of the time we see them in the already fast-paced OZONE Forum, in the Mad Scientist's Lab (Some of you old folks know how much this roasts my cookies), or for some reason they'll end up in Site Reviews...

Simpler is better. Got a problem with front-end? Hit the forum about front-end. Trouble in back-end? Mosey on over to the back-end forum. Struggling to go neat-o dorito on on a 2D image? Stalk the picture forum. Difficuties with anything 3D? Rip into the Modeling forum. Wanna shoot the breeze and discuss miscellaneous junk like Toemuncher, Butt Zits, or the cockin time of a 12-guage shotgun? Come chill in the OZONE spot..

We don't get *that* many messages to warrant opening specific forums to channel them to. The Philosophy forum was a good call-- there was no real place for those messages to go before. The posts that wander these halls are pretty much on the same stuff and no matter what code you're writing in, or what graphics program you use, or what 3D app you model realms with.

EDIT: Sorry if I rambled *ahem* Correction, sorry because I rambled...


"...when I'm high like heaven, when I'm strong like music, 'cause I'm slow like honey and heavy with mood..."
ICQ: 67751342

[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 01-19-2002).]

It does seem a little odd to have XHTML in one forum and HTML in the other. Not to mention that XHTML & XML are really a world appart compared to HTML & XHTML.

If were going to stich with a HTML forum we may as well include XHTML & CSS leaving XML, XSL(T), X Path, and DOM in the other.

This kind of seperates things into:

Simple Markup and Display/Formatting - HTML / XHTML / CSS1 / CSS2.
XML Markup and Display/Formatting - XML / XSL / XSLT / Xpath / XML-DOM or other API's.
DHTML Javascript/ECMA Script + CSS + HTML-DOM's.

That's how I kind of seperate most of these things in my head anyways. When I'm working on something I usualy work on each of these general areas seperatly. If I wanted to know how to change a CSS value with Javascript, I'd ask in the javascript forum. If I wanted to get some suggestions on cross-browser CSS box models than I'd ask in a HTML forum.

Just my 2 cents.

yeah, you divided it good, but this is TOO MUCH for the asylum.
there wont be so many threads there...

one client-side forum
one server-side forum

nothing else is needed. cross-browser stuff could be discussed in client-side forum.

Eh, I don't know. I'm just not too fussed on the idea of a "client side codeing" forum. It would be as busy if not more so then the general Ozones forum and I can barealy keep up with that one as it is.

In theory the gap between non-interactive display scripting (HTML, XHTML, CSS) and interactive display scripting (dHTML) is small. After all, there is overlap in technologies -- rollovers might be considered part of basic page design, while dHTML definitely can use CSS. But in practice, it's usually very easy to say "Okay, my current problem has to do with how the page LOOKS -- it's an HTML/CSS problem" or "Okay, my current problem has to do with how the page ACTS -- it's a JavaScript/CSS problem." For that reason, I wouldn't mind seeing at least two different forums for client-side programming.

Whether XML and its stepchildren belong in yet another forum is another story. I'm gonna say leave it all in Server-Side Scripting, and if in a year or so, XML questions overrun the board, then think about a new forum. But don't count your chickens until they're hatched.

I agree with Dracusis and PT - while a client-side/server-side coding split would be nice and neat in theory it doesn't take into account:

1. That XML could count as both.

2. The large amount of traffic that the DHTML forum already gets.

I like PT's idea about making the distinction between client side 'doing' code (DHTML) and client-side 'display' code (HTML/CSS) as people will know what they want even though there is quite a bit of crossover.

I'm still unsure where to put XML (and related 'technologies') - I say throw it into a HTML, CSS and XML forum and see how many posts it gets and of what type. It should have a forum of its own in the end but I think we've got to give XML time to sink in (it will be huge).

So theres my vote sink this forum into the other new one and trim the name down to something like:

HTML, CSS and XML

Emps


Beware of men without beards and women with beards - Basque proverb

You know me well enough, when I want real action and opinions on things, I just change them late one evening and rattle the cages! Your feedback was exactly what I was hoping for; concise, well argued, I think I agree with you after that. (And it looks like we might reach a concensus with it, too!) For my part, I need some kind of change, I miss too many things I don't want to miss, and the current breakdown of coding/graphic/whatnot forums is not working for me, probably not for others either.

The more I think on this, the coding might best ve broken down into...

- Client-side coding - Javascript/ECMA, PHP, HTML, things that happen in the browser.
- Server-side coding - SSI, Perl, Java, things that happen before the browser sees the page!
- Miscellaneous coding - A combination of both, or 'don't know'...

The third one is tricky, we deal in this world where so often the problems occur not in one place or the other, but instead in how they merge. I'm also concerned that the client-side forum will be just too damned busy, Javascript and PHP could each almost fill a forum by themselves, and might be easier to deal with for some.

For the general categories, that's an issue too. Right now we appear to have things in either 'coding', 'graphics', and 'other', heh. Possibly we could consider 'special projects' and maybe 'things to do' (pspong, etc...).

I doubt I'll ever want more forums than we have; today it sits at 17, in 3 categories, and that's more than enough for me. I'm ready to do some major shuffling around, and it's gotta work for everybody, so sing out!

Your pal, -doc-

Doc: I don't know if it will affect your considerations but you've got PHP in the client-side list (it is late this side of the pond!!). With just a little tweak we could have:

Client-side I: DHTML: JavaScript, CSS and things that move.
Client-side II: HTML, CSS, XML: All the things that don't move.
Server-side: PHP, ASP, PERL, XML

There are some grey areas although problems related to server-side XML are usually going to be different from client-side problems (I'd imagine s-s problems would be largely from the script you use to access) and most people would be clear where their CSS problem would go.

Emps

Yeah, I was thinking my inital suggestion of having an XML (and related technologies) only forum would be rather slow at least for now. So throwng XML in with HTML, XHTML ans CSS makes a lot of sence. If in the future the XML related questions start to over run things I'm sure this will be brought up again.

I also like the idea of seperating Javascript from the markup and display coding. After all, coding in Javascript is a whole other ball park compared to markup like HTML and CSS. Javascript & DHTML are also popular enough (and plagued by hickups which promote questions) to hold a forum all by themselves.

Again, Just my 2 cents.

Nothing like seeing new sections of the asylum pop up. I laughed for a good long while when I saw this. I think this is a GREAT addition for simple questions.

ok, I've got to admit that the idea of separating client-side into actions and look does appeal to me... but it should stop there...

Again, it all goes back to simplicity. Maybe it'll help to FINISH THE NEW FRONT DOOR(!!!!!!!)-- a graphical representation of what a forum stands for might make it more intuitive. However, I believe that 'css for art and css for movement ' deserves to be clearer cut 'cause it's a little cloudy right now...

I also think that the rest of the forums need to be looked at as well. Don't get me wrong , I don't mean that they need to leave, but that some of them forums down there could be merged together and some need to go the way of the dodo.

I explain: print graphics stuff IMHO (feel free to counter) could go in the photoshop forum....and why don't we just turn a couple of the *misc* forums into unmoderated?
they site revs and outpatient conseling, namely?

I gott go now, but I'll add more to this later...



"...when I'm high like heaven, when I'm strong like music, 'cause I'm slow like honey and heavy with mood..."
ICQ: 67751342

PS: I agree that the descriptions of the two (prospective) client-side coding forums will have to be carefully done so that people aren't confused but CSS for movement is so wrapped up in the JavaScript that people shouldn't have too much trouble finding the right place (and its the moderators job to make sure questions end up in the right forums).

I may be biased but I can't quite see the advantage of making 'Site Reviews' and 'Outpatient Counselling' unmoderated (unless we moderators are somehow holding things back or down but that may be a different issue) even the unregistered/umoderated forum is still moderated to some extent (and I don't think we'd really want it any other way!!).

Emps


Beware of men without beards and women with beards - Basque proverb

I'm just worrying about the coding sections right now, I'll tackle the others areas after. I like the "client side that moves", "c-s that doesn't", and "server side" idea, that was quite clear to me. I do still find value to the "basic html" section - I was just able to quickly answer two questions here; sometimes there are really simple things people want, and sometimes I want to just drop in and "answer a few easy ones", heh. (I might not be the only one! :-)

Your pal, -doc-

well your choice doc, but my opinion is still unchanged:
one s-s and one c-s forum. i dont think we need much more because there isnt that much traffic yet. and as petskull and some others said it's kinda complicated browsing through such a lot of forums for just one new thread or so.
but, you are the doc, doc.

edit: i also think it's time to have a general discussion about the forum in the mad-sci area maybe.

[This message has been edited by GRUMBLE (edited 01-20-2002).]

emperor: sorry.... I didn't exactly mean 'unmoderated', I meant more 'unregistered'...

...and I like Grumble's idea. We should (after the current problem is overcome) get together in the mad sci forum and:

1:. Restructure the Asylum
2:. Beat in the Design (long overdue, DOC!! *g*) of the new front door..
3:. help ourselves to chips -n- dip?




"...when I'm high like heaven, when I'm strong like music, 'cause I'm slow like honey and heavy with mood..."
ICQ: 67751342

lol skull....

I wanna be a mod for this forum!

...my favorite part of the mad scientist's lab would have to be the Vodka and Tequila beakers ready to be combined into an ingestable suspension....


"...when I'm high like heaven, when I'm strong like music, 'cause I'm slow like honey and heavy with mood..."
ICQ: 67751342

unfortunately I'll probably use this forum a lot.....


-------------icq-24001292------------

see, don't get me wrong...... we're not saying that there shouldn't be a place to ask the simple questions. We're simply saying that the simple questions should be grouped with advanced questions of roughly the same topic..... Don't stop asking the easy questions! They're the only ones I can answer!


"...when I'm high like heaven, when I'm strong like music, 'cause I'm slow like honey and heavy with mood..."
ICQ: 67751342

lol skull....

hmm am I repeating myself or is skull just funny?

oh well who cares

HTML? people still use that?

-mage-

I like the way Emporer split them all up in 3 sections - good idea!

Mage, yer lookin at html code right now so what do ya think? ok its parsed and all...but still

WarMarge, hee,hee, I've just started learning HTML as a base to move onto greater things. It's going well but I would really value a place where I could find HTML questions and answers without having to sift through all the other languages queries. Remember, some of us are still new to it and this is a place of learning right?

~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

but you don't *have* to sift thru them!


.....that's why threads have names....


"...when I'm high like heaven, when I'm strong like music, 'cause I'm slow like honey and heavy with mood..."
ICQ: 67751342

mmm, I thought thats what this thread was all about - trying to minimise overlap. Reading how HTML mixes with DHTML, JAVA, XML etc is of little value to someone who is still not fluent in basic HTML

~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

...then don't read those threads....


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

Anyway, the basic basics should be handled at the individual study level. If you need to know what tags you nest inside of a <table> tag, you don't browse the Asylum -- you look it up on w3schools or some similar site. The Asylum is a powerful resource, but it certainly doesn't need to be compartmentalized or broken down in the same way as a reference tool.

excactly, I mean, we're not here to spoon-feed you...
....asking a question is not a problem, but please don't come to us with questions a google search could have immediately yielded fruit for...

like PT said, this is a forum, not a reference tool.. the archives yes, not the active forums..

I still don't see the problem in dumping all of the client-side stuff in 'DHTML\Javascript'.... in F1_Error's words: Why do you insist on making things so complicated?

I advocate the creation of a 'Page Layout' forum, but some of this stuff is just superfluous...


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

Point taken guys, I'm not trying to offend anyone here. the title for this particular forum is:

Stupid Basic HTML
Heh. We almost forget to discuss this aspect, it's easy to get lost in high-level abstractions, but this is core.

That is why I suggested a it would be a good idea to have a separate forum for HTML, after all as the title suggests it is core. I learned photoshop by reading the manual 3 times then moving onto another book. I did the same with Illustrator, freehand, Quark, fontographer, flash and am now on my second book for HTML. I would not dream of wasting anyones time here by asking lightweight questions

~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

Yes, you guys are at a level so sophisticated that us HTML learners are left in the grass.
I said it at another forum: Calling it stupid is down right rude.

But I think that's why the Doc made it to a question, not something permanent.
I belive helping people from the very base is important.
It'll give OzoneAsylum a range from level 1 to maximum.
Is that a bad idea?

I think that there does need to be a place for this. Wherever it winds up being. I know I sometimes have a hard time slicing up images and getting them back together in HTML. It may be a Stupid question to some but for those that don't know it's not so stupid. As my guitar teacher once told me: "It's easy once you know how to do it"

Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum2/HTML/001271.html http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum2/HTML/001243.html http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum2/HTML/001235.html

...three perfectly good straight-HTML threads that suffered no ills by being posted in 'DHTML\Javascript'. I don't mean to be rude but if you need to learn basic HTML tags I suggest you hit the following resources:
http://www.webreference.com
http://www.bignosebird.com
http://www.w3.org
http://www.hwg.org
http://www.htmlgoodies.com
http://www.htmlhelp.com

and last- but most certainly not least-
http://www.gurusnetwork.com

wanna know how you could have gotten these resources and many more? You *could* have tried a google search... or you *might* have tried hitting altavista...

...or how about posting a new topic in the DHTML/Javascript Forum? I'll bet you it would've caught fire as everyone chimed in with their priceless, can't-live-without, always-there-when-you-need-it, super-duper HTML reference/tutorial/all-out guide....

..again...no need to complicate this... it's fine as it is...

edit: even designsbymark teaches you how to manually slice images and do the table thing...


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 01-23-2002).]

My point further on would be that asking about HTML in the XML - XSL - XSLT - XHTML - CSS - DOM forum would be an *excellent* way to be introduced/guided to XHTML solutions etc.
That way it'll all came natural.
(I've said this also at the XML - XSL - XSLT - XHTML - CSS - DOM forum.)



[This message has been edited by 99 (edited 01-24-2002).]

Petskull, You could say that about any subject. So, with a theory like that we shouldn't have DHTML/Javascript, Serverside Scripting, Photoshop or anything alse we could possibly find information about elsewhere on the internet. Which would be just about this whole forum really.

Petskull, thanks for the links, I have added them to my favourites. I have only been using the net for about 3 months so still finding my way around. I will certainly try the search engines first in future

~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

my point is not that you should go elsewhere, or even stop asking 'simple' questions, but that there is no point in creating a whole new forum for them...

for example, InI posted a message in the Ozone Forum (Here) asking for help with C and Perl... the thread caught fire in, what, two days?

...like I said before, there's really no need to change things around when they're fine as it is...



Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 01-26-2002).]

well, agreement again, petskull.

hey doc, what now? when will you remove this forum finally?