Preserved Topic: Is it Art (Page 2 of 2)

>Cyong, have you ever even painted? Anyone can smear paint on some canvas? I suppose that's true but can just anyone paint a detailed portrait? Of course not.

With enough practice and tutorials.. yea, there were some fine efforts to that effect recently courtesy of weedahs tut.. doh, but that was PS, not art. Personally, no I don't paint. I don't care for most paintings I see and therefore don't care to emulate them. Photography is my strong suit and I'm learning all the other stuff photoshop is capable of at an accelerated pace thanks to the creation of the internet.

>The real question is can just anyone take a picture with a camera? Let's see, point and click, yup that about sums it up.

Nope.. it really doesn't, though it may to some extent with the $49 point and shoot you leave in a drawer somewhere. The first considerations happen long before the camera is pointed.. light, composition, film selection, light, film latitude, depth of field, light, shutter speed.. and on and on. Then there's all the stuff you can do in the darkroom.. which has mostly been replaced by Photoshop, at least commercially. There are few things more beautifull than a perfectly lit portrait. Have you ever been fortunate enough to see a large format portrait, maybe a black and white, painstakingly lit, dodged and burned just so... using the zone system (Ansel Adams created that) perhaps.. I mean really seen one, held it in your hand and marvelled at the detail and how it leaps off the page? That my friend is art, and you couldn't do it anymore than I could pick up a paintbrush and smear out a detailed portrait. Does that make you less of an artist.. does it make me less of an artist? I don't think so.. the medium is irrelevant, and this argument is senseless.

>As far as Photoshop goes, has anyone sat down and thought about why there's so many 'web designers' and 'digital artists' coming out now? It seems everyone owns there own company. Why is that? Anyone can learn html and anyone can master Photoshop.

And I figured it had something to do with technology making it easier and more affordable to do so. Thanks for the enlightenment.
Who took me meds dammit?

-cyoung

Oh DG. You never could seem to come into a discussion without insults a blazing. For what it's worth I'm currently 18 and no matter how much you want to envision me whacking off, I just didn't share your childhood activities. I don't need to come up with an excuse like that because I simply don't own a digital camera nor a scanner. Don't pity me. I've accomplished more with my life then you could ever hope to. You're a 30 year old man who barely gets by with his 'art' trying to degrade a teenager with masturbation insults. I pity you. You can change the subject all you want but you still haven't given one example of how digital art is actual art. I suppose that's about all I would expect from you, however.


.sig by Weadah.

~makes a strange flapping noise with cheeks~
Found my meds!
~walks off laughing hystericly~
~blames DG~
~laughs more~

My God. Without ever painting, you're seriously going to sit here and tell me with enough practice anyone can paint a detailed portrait? What makes it even better is you're basing that assumption off of a Photoshop tutorial done by Weadah. You can make it sound as professional as you want, theres not too much of an artistic ability needed to take a picture. You can call it lighting, composition, film selection, film latitude, depth of field, and shutter speed all you want. What that means is make sure you have film in the camera, let the camera auto zoom, set the flash and click the button. Don't try and disguise it. At least ya did go and prove my point, which I can't help but thank you. Yes Cyoung, you were right about one thing, technology, (referring to Photoshop) does make it easier. I think that was the whole point for this discussion.


.sig by Weadah.

Jestah,
I don't mean to be a prick here...but, are you a member of an Amish or Menanite community?
Please, nobody take that as an insult to Amish, Menanites or Jestah...just a simple question, that is all.
Your reluctance to accept technology is why I ask that question...
Do you also think that a scientist who uses a bunsun burner instead of a 'real' fire is less a scientist...because it is 'easier'?
Or a carpenter who uses a screw and screw driver is less a carpenter because s/he doesn't use wooden pegs? That is 'easier' too...
And one last, completely honest and non-insulting question.
Why does art have to be 'difficult' to be art??

mobrul

*cough*
Well, there are enough insulting pricks in here without me getting involved but just to show I'm not above getting dirty, I'll state my opinion.

Picasso knew how to use the tools to create oil paintings.
Mozart knew how to use the tools to create music.
Doc knows how to use tools to create digital art.
Ansel Adams knew how to use the tools to create great photography.
The key is in the knowledge and application of the tools.
To coin a phrase, "Art is art". Period.
There's great art and terrible art. Personally, I don't consider Christ hanging upside down
in a jar of urine to be art but ~sigh~ such an exhibit was shown several years ago, funded by the NEA.
Oil paintings have inspired novels and screenplays and so has digital art.
Inspiration is the result of art. And digital art is on more book covers than
any other kind of art. Time will tell if DA is any less a medium than oil or photography.
~800~
~shambles off to resume trying to understand Cricket~

[This message has been edited by Allewyn (edited 06-28-2001).]

threep takes a deep breath, and wanders into the room.
"whew, something smells kinda funky!" he says.
he decides he too feels like throwing in his fair share of shit into the room - it already has such a strong stench, no one will notice anyway...
"jestah - to be honest, you're being quite obtuse (tip - your and you're are two different words, try to differentiate and use appropriately). First off, don't start a sentence 'not to sound conceded', and follow with more pretence than you could poke a poorly formed cliche at. And don't make assumptions about other people's talent, unless you have evidence. and even then, it would still be subjective.
my cousin is an artist. she (as well as using conventional mediums) uses angle grinders and welders to make her art. and some of the sculptures make about as much sense to me as your posts in this thread (not much). i have seen computer generated artworks (in an art gallery - now what, pray tell, would they be doing there?) that have communicated far more to me than many sculptures, paintings or otherwise.
the point is, whether she uses a paintbrush, paints and canvas; clay and hands; scrap metal and tools; or a camera and darkroom - she is making art, not because she is doing stuff, but because she is using her mind to create something creative with the resources at hand. what if she uses a computer and printer?

quote:

---

The artist uses the brush to create his shapes, the Photoshop user merely clicks "OK."

---

right on. when i load up my photoshop, i choose file > new > artwork, and up pops an alert: 'add talent, creativity and imagination to new artwork?' i usually click 'ok'. wouldn't you?
i had better finish here - i'll just say that it's the message conveyed, not the medium used, that makes art.
...or, if you prefer:
its the message, not the medium, bay-bee."
running out of breath, threep wipes his ass, and departs.

Not one example?

Dave McKean...do some research, son.

I'm 30?..wow..who knew?

Calling me a man, and yourself a boy is understandable though, I will give you that. "barely getting by"..~lmffao~ oh son...you'll make me choke laughing at you again.
Careful where you step, kid..your pile of shit is growing around your heels...and with your head that far up your ass, it's definitely going to clog soon.

Now then, I expect your research to be extensive, and handed in by Friday, or no recess.

but you knew that.




[This message has been edited by DarkGarden (edited 06-28-2001).]

Hey, I just came to a startling revelation:

Jestah is the only *true* artist here.

none of us have *ever* painted, drawn, sculpted, anything before. And none of us would be any good at it, because we can only use computers.

how 'bout that.

I also learned that french curves are an airbrush tool. that was pretty startling in itself.
thanks for that tip

photography......I wonder what those guys do in a dark room? eh, probably nothing....

but then...you knew that already

Insult the Amish by considering Jestah a member? Now you've gone too far. Be prepared to face the wrath...



Jestah I guess I just don't understand how you can sit there and totally ignore the things that we have seen Weadah and DG do. You have seen their work right? Oh yeah, I guess you have, Wead made your sig. Before you go and run your mouth off about how great of an artist you are, lets see it man. You're in HS right? I bet they have a digital cam around there somewhere you could take advantage of, or maybe even a scanner. Buy a litle $9 disposable camera and shoot away. Hell, email me, I'll give you my mailing address and you can send the pics to me so I can scan them. Until that point I would temper my words about how fabulous you are because all we've ever seen from is is a couple of half ass web pages that show absolutely no skill with Photoshop or coding.

And hey, isn't this a Photoshop forum?

Jestah....why do you sit in a photoshop forum....bad mouthing how the people here do their work/art...calling them cheats to say the least...and use Weads work (sig) and then in your post you put him down ?

Another thing....when there are loads of people telling you that you're wrong and you are the only on thinking the way you do....it could be that you're wrong .....that's like the song... Here's Your Sign


you knew that...right?


~Did you ever stop to think that your way of thinking is a lot like pissing down your leg? It seems hot to you, but it never does to anyone else~

"The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you."





[This message has been edited by Shiiizzzam (edited 06-28-2001).]

*pokes head in*
Ahem, I'd like to say that IMO one of the most important attributes of a great artist is their vision. Not how well they can paint a f*cking still life of fruit. Open-mindedness. That can not be learned in a high school art class. Some people are born with it, some people aren't. I guess you weren't.

Jestah, you have to be one of the most close-minded people I've ever met. You may be able to paint the hell out of a still life, but you'll never create anything that I consider art. You have no vision. I'm sure you've heard "thinking outside the box" in your many years of education in the fine arts. Try it. End of story.

*smacks Jestah on the back of the head (but you already knew I would) and walks out*



[This message has been edited by Jeni (edited 06-28-2001).]

oh oh oh theyre talking about me ! you'd love what this does to mi ego, not to mention mi hourly rate but i think we left that arguement elsewheres......

anyways how did i get dragged into this ? oh...yah... well, fuck you jestah. dont ever, even try and speak for me or make assumptions on mi behalf matey, you are far too unawares, tiny, and clooless.

like usual - theres tons to say, its just not worth the keystrokes, so, Jestah you're a tool. your head is so far up your ass its given you tunnel vision pal, and your running off at the mouth about stuff youve never done, never been and never will be.

dont drag me into your bullshit arguements, okees =)

\/\/eadz >@: oooO

oh and while i think of it hehe

you shoulda "conceded" a long time ago mate, the word you wanted is conceited..but umm you knew that...right?

Eheheh, I noticed that too Weadah.

But seriously, IN JESTAH'S DEFENSE, I thought he had some good points to begin with before he started bad-mouthing everyone. Here's the thing though. Inasmuch as an artist is defined by his mastery of his medium, Photoshop offers plenty of room to spend your whole life improving, and that makes it capable of being an artistic medium.

Personally I do have a lot more respect for a fine painting than a piece of digital art. In traditional art the process is obvious to everyone, and the skill is readily apparent. With Photoshop work you have to be somewhat more of an expert to recognize true skill. Of course, that's assuming that this whole art-debate thing rests on people's perceptions. While that may be true for society, an artist would be well-served to ignore society if he/she wants to ever break free from the mold and create something that is unique,,,

-jiblet

Your creating an image. Who gives a rat's ass how you made it. If you made it so someone else will look at the image and say 'hey cool', and they do, what difference does it really make??

Oh, Jestah, two questions:

1) With your current view on PS art, why are you still using Weed's sig?
2) Again, with your current view on PS art, Why do you come here???

oops, I need coffee again.....

But seriously Jestah, as much as I hate to admit this, age does matter as times. Take this from someone who learnt the hard way. Someone that finished school three years earlier then everyone else. Someone who thought that they were just as good if not better then people three or four years older then them. Pay you respects to the people who have walked you path before you, as they've already done all of the stupid things your about to do. I used to have an attitude like yours regarding many things. I took a fall, a big one. Now, I'm 21 and this time I'm choosing to walk through the puddles, that way I don't miss anything.

Humm... that whole paragraph came across sounding way to self important that I intended... Bah! I'm too lazy to fix it, just pay attention to what I first said...


everybody needs a swamp bear

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 06-28-2001).]

I find this argument appalling... Jestah has a different opinion than many in here.. but, so what? i teach my children that everyone is entitled to their own opinion... and that is what i thought was one of the premises (sp) of this asylum...

i see (imho) shit in galleries and recognize it as shit while i listen to some ass telling the person next to him about the emotions that the painting generates in him! bullshit.. a blank canvas with a dot is a blank canvas with a dot.. smears of paint on a canvas are just that... emotion? is disbelief an emotion? disbelief that someone considers it art and great enough art to hang in a gallery! pooh. (i prefer picasso to pollock)

we all have our own opinions.. personally, i love playing with photoshop and am working to master the tools of this craft.. i also love water painting and drawing... i see art every day.. sometimes i capture it in a sketch and sometimes not... but are my sketches art? no, no more than an outline is a novel..

the artists i have met are able to create art with whatever comes their way, a brush and paint, food to make you drool, a camera to capture a moment.. .. i know artists who want to be great artists.. but isn't that reaching for the unreachable? isn't that wanting acceptance by others? why do that? no one can live up to the expectations of others!

i wonder.. is a choreographer an artist? or is the dancer the artist? how about songwriter and muscian or singer? if the topic is to be argued here, the insults and mud slinging can be left out - they only muddy the waters...

my experience has taught me that you cannot change anyone's opinion until that person is ready to have his opinion changed.. otherwise you end up frustrated wondering at the obtuseness of the person and the person you were attempting to influence decides your an ass for being so pushy!

--please, no attacks, i'm on my way to the dentist's to have a wisdom tooth removed.. seems my mouth isn't big enough

Velvetrose, don't get those teeth pulled quite yet. Try this first. It may help.

It's nice to see everyone getting along as usual.

You know Jestah, I really understand where you're coming from, but you're coming off really badly. You also fail to see the point.

Unless you find a way of transferring your vision directly onto your medium, you will always have to use a tool as an intermediary. Your hands themselves are tools of the brain controlled through your central nervous system. The same applies to a computer or whatever medium you choose.

You've said that art photography is just pointing and clicking and that saying it's about shutter speed, exposure, etc. is purely semantics, but I could say the same thing about whatever art you try to create using brush and canvas. It's nothing more than a few colorful chemicals smeared on a piece of canvas. Oh, you may argue that it's the technique, or how you apply the paint, but all you're doing is akin to a high school dropout painting a house. Same thing in your argument. All you're doing is using a smaller brush and more colors.

And then, you went and made a major mistake. You called your art "better" than someone elses.

quote:

---

Is Weadah the better artist? Not to sound conceded[sic], but without any training at all, and with much less experience, I'm can probably draw, paint, sculpt, and anything else you can think of better then he

---

You dare to call yourself an artist and then make a value judgment about someone elses work? There is no such thing as better art because it is subjective. Many people may agree on some things, but at the heart of it is the fact that there is no better or worse art. There may be art and not art, but that's a different thing entirely.

By better, do you mean you can hold a brush with more technical expertise? Or that you can manipulate a piece of clay in a way which is more dexterous? I know quadraplegics who have to hold the brushes in their mouths that can create works that will bring a grown man to tears. But I suppose your art is better because you get to use your hands. I suppose that makes you better, does it?

welp, seeing the amount of conflict this thread has stirred already lets take it to the next level...

what about music? music has been considered a fine art for nearly as long as if not as long as other arts such as painting.

music is art
digital art is not art (according to jestah...)
digital music is not art?

nowadays almost all music has been brought into the electronic and/or digital realm, is this still art?

netmosisdotcalm n. - from latin netmosisusdotuscalmus - fuck it all.

*ROFL* @ Jeni.. too late, the deed was done by the time you posted
the fist in mouth is not helpful right now as i am on a liquid diet for a couple of days ...

From the Dictionary:

art
1. The production or expression of what is beautiful or visually attractive.
2. the products of human visual creativity, such as drawing, painting, sculpture, architecture.
3. Also, fine arts, any branch of these arts, esp. painting.
4. Also, liberal arts, creative or non-scientific branches of learning collectively, esp. as a course of university study.
5. the skill or work of humans (oft. opposed to nature).
6. Skilled practice: the art of making speeches.
7. a studdied action, cunning: She is full of art; He knows the arts of politics.

Now, pay close attention to numbers 1, 2, 5, 6, and 7

That's what I said ^^^^^^^

well kinda.... I said >>>
art comes in lots of forms....I don't care who does it or how they achive it.....be it PS....a pencil or pen or crayons.....airbrush...or shrubs by Edward ScissorHands....or you carve a desk out of wood with your tongue

~Edward ScissorHands is the greatest artist to ever live. So great there is a movie about him~

everybody needs a swamp bear

First off all my computer is an tool to achive some things... just like paint is.

Also in music some people say that pop/rock music ain't music but then i alwas ask myself "what kind off instruments would beethoven using when he lived in the 20th/21st century like us?"

Or to art related "what would Vincent van Gogh use if he had a computer"?

Art is something what is already in existence... meaning art is constanly renewing itself. So it changes over the years. Art is undefined. Now here comes the problem with (art) schools:
Schools teach things...but you cannot teach undefined things.
So when they got an definition about art is is always learning the development from years ago. So it is not possible to learn "art" it is possible to learn usefull techniques as painting or drawing. Techniques can be defined... But if you have some techniques you don't even need an Art School. Just let people know yo are an "artist"

Here is some quote from "Piet Monndriaan" an dutch artist from early 20th century:

"Art must be forgotten, beauty must be realized"


~just my 2cents~

~Rinswind ~

Whoa, Jestah, if you think all photography comes down to is letting a camera focus for you then clicking the button, then I'm not going to waste my time in this argument.

You should seriously take some photography classes before denegrating all photographers to one-hour, point-and-click do-nothings.

My God, what you don't know.

I'm seriously thinking of taking some photography classes....I love really well taken photographs. I'd love to be able to do that.

Well that cleared it up for me. And to think I used to consider Ansel Adams an artist, all those hours he spent deep in yellowstone waiting for the lighting and clouds to be just right before he would snap a shot and it turns out that photography is not a legitimate art form. Wow, you do learn something new every day.

Once again the forum locals reveal a bit more about themselfs...............all good info mind you.

Come on guys/gals lets act as a community here. We all have zeal.

I wouldnt want to destroy jestahs zeal for his beliefs...it might be where his strength is hidden...who knows i dont.

And ya gotta love the rest of yas zeal.............i remember when i left the airbrush domain and dove into digital........i was in heaven....Still am

DG...i know how you feel about putting that edge on your work youve looked for all your life. I to defend that realm...(digital)......i still have to go into the paint shop to make my digital better.......i cant build certain textures without trad means...............but digital has given me a satisfaction that i had to fight for in tradition..........(whats your thought's??)

Thats great you all have something to say..........now say something nice......;-)..............we can get a bit out of hand when this group is mixed......time to find a balance

~laughing at Shi
You nailed it beautiful; its all about ego.

Wheee doggies
what a feeding frenzy that was! glad I missed it

Jason

we had a balance.. kinda.. LOL. guessed who rocked the boat DC? I bet you don't even need 3 guesses with your infinite wisdom and boundless knowledge of everything........ do you? ........nah I thought not...

*waddles off in the general direction of the janitors closet mumblin* ~Vp~

edit: borrowed DB's stupid fingers agin.. ho hum

[This message has been edited by vogonpoet (edited 07-01-2001).]

Did i say something again........hehehe........................................hey im trying to live up to the spirit of the forum which probably looks a lot like the good DocOzone........took awhile before i got a better picture of his intent here......and the forum.

If im going to visit i guess ill need ta know that.........................

umm, yah.

thread closed.

go start another if the original topic still interest anyone.... at all