Preserved Topic: Human Cloning - your position...

Been thinking alot on human cloning lately, since that italian scientist decided to go ahead and attempt it. I'm not really sure what I think about the subject. It's one of those things that opens literally tons of stuff. I can see both the potential for Mankind and the danger. Are we really ready for this? Can Mankind accept the responsiblity for delving into this area? I mean, I know there are lands (and goverment projects) that will do it anyway, irregardless of how the world community sees it. So should it be a public issue, or should the possible benefits be reserved only for those who are either in a position of power, or have enough money? And should someone decide (or be in a position) to misuse such knowledge...

I think I have a similar standpoint as you on this issue. On one hand, I think that the technological advancement and knowledge gained from the procedure would be very valuable, especially as we delve deeper into space exploration. This technology could also provide amputees with 100% real functioning limbs, and could prolong lives for a number of years.

On the other hand, I do not think that our society has enough ethical control or values to protect and guard this very dangerous technology. Money is the driving force in many of our lives, and I feel that no matter how much we pretend to "protect" the technology, someone, somewhere, will sell it and profit from it. My only fear is that someday "The Matrix" could possibly become a non-fictional movie.


[This message has been edited by acidbox (edited 06-15-2001).]

A great man once said...

"Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind."


I think that is a strong enough reason to advocate human cloning.

more than one Krets running around would scare me.

behind and to the left

Sounds like a Jack Handy quote.

I'm all for human cloning. As a matter of fact, somewhere around 5 years ago, a scientist managed to grow brainless tadpoles. Where's the ethical issues with growing organs?

What is a clone? It would be a person who has the exact same genetic material as you do. It would be born from the womb and grow like any other person. The clone would develop from its own experiences and could easily grow up to be completely unlike you.

Most people place a high value on their individuality which is one of the major obstacles for cloning. frankly my individuality isn't worth a whole lot and a clone could never take that away from me.

I will always be older than my clone, therefore at a different point in my life and my memorys and experiences will be completely different.

Why would I care one iota that there is another person on this planet walking around with the exact same genetic material as I have? As long as we're not cloning homeless people or people on welfare, who cares?




It's your God, they're your rules, YOU go to Hell.

Actually, the planet's overpopulated as it is. Except for organ farms, there is really no need for a fully cognitive, living clone until we seriously attempt to colonize other planets.




It's your God, they're your rules, YOU go to Hell.

Actually, they're attempting experiments on it. True human cloning is still a ways off and the type of cloning most people think of (fully replicating a single human being) is very far away.

Personally, the only way we'll truly find out about it is after it's happened, like most things in life. Personally, I think they need to start cloning cows as soon as possible because I'd love to live in a world where a prime cut was ten cents a pound

Take me out of the lab soup.....no thanks......i wouldnt want to live with the fact they could have overlooked something and ...Bam a protien gets turned off ..an.enzyme was pre-mature and ??????..............No thanks.....if i found out i was cloned id be gunnin for the prick who concockted a way to play GOD with my life..............yep..hed be a dead man walkin ............

Silence .....if you cloned more cows they would be more BIgMacs around............The Big Mac has finally exceeded beef productions from mother nature............hahahaha.....ouch.

You wouldnt see 10ct delmonicos..........youd see 10 cts Big Macs................and probaly a million more arches.

The fact the earth has no more cows to give keeps the Big Mac under control..............

I always knew that bastard Ronald was up to something. Where's the beef, you motherfakker!!

heh

I am not categorically against human cloning, HOWEVER, because it deals with human life we have to be very careful to protect rights of the individual. There is no doubt in my mind that we will soon be successful in cloning a human being and like WebShaman said, some group will do this come what may. So it *will* happen.

We've already seen how the Dutch regard old people's lives, we know how the Chinese regard the lives of baby girls, and we know how Europe and the US regard fetal life. Do I have a lot of hope for the rights of human clones? I'm worried.

St. Seneca nailed it by pointing out that a clone is just another person with the only special feature as sharing the same genetic structure as another person. Umm... isn't that real close to what twins are? They look alike and grow up often times in very similar circumstances but they are separate individuals each endowed with inalienable rights by the Creator.

The idea of growing clones without brain stems for organ farms is really *really* close to the line. I seriously have to think about that one some more. We have to be *very* careful in messing around with the definition of what takes to be "human". The Nazis redefined it, who wants to take bets that the Dutch will be next if they haven't already.

P.S. No offense intended for mahjqa, Rinswind 2th, GRUMBLE, or WebShamen. I'm speaking about the policies those countries have ratified.

Hey I'd love the idea of a personal clone in case of an organ failure. Wont stop death but it would prolong life.
Think about the possibilities. Liver transplants, lung cancer (you could replace the lung)

Im no doctor but theoreticly, it sounds like a great movie.

er... did someone say the 6th day?

Ah yes, the human clone. I can see from the thread that alot of people have different conceptions of what a clone is. First, you have to take all that religious god crap out the damn window. All you do is put the genetic code of one into the embryo of another. It's not like "multiplicity" or that other hollywood trash- you can't just put some chemicals and DNA into a tube and wa-lah... A women has to carry the baby for the normal gestation period and have the baby and then it has to grow like the rest of the rest of the plebians the plague this world.

Common Ignorance:

1) You can't just have one hanging out for limb replacements. It'd be like taking an arm from your brother (although some of you freaky asylum addicts wouldn't think twice.)
2) No Neo-Nazi/Hiler-esque scenarios are feasible. Unless a neo-hitler wanted to play daddy to a few million kids for almost twenty years with no one else's knowledge.
3) Matrix a fucking non-fiction!?! Jesus and Baby Jesus, you have to be kidding.

Cloning shouldn't be as much of a problem as selective genetic alteration of embryos. Let's say you and the missus want your boy to have blue eyes and score 1500 on the SAT- We're getting pretty damn close to that already. As we speak, you can go in and find out if your child's going to be retarded or further disfunctional and choose to terminate the (very young) embryo without even getting an abortion (one of those non-FDA approved pills), basically opting for a "better" kid. And for those automatons blessed to have the skill of reading, check out "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley- those artificial embryos are right on the horizon heading towards us at unimaginable speed. For those of you who have already read it... you're probably just Epsilon Semi-Morons anyways....

O.K. apparently some of you are not up-to-date on scientific knowledge, I'm not sure why, so I'll add a bit of information (helpful or unhelpful as it may). In England they managed to create a process to download the memories of the human brain on a chip (they are still working on a reversal of the process. Until the brain is fully understood, it'll probably take awhile; however, never underestimate the power of a break-through). The research into creating an arificial womb is still ongoing, and to tell the truth, haven't heard anything on it in years (which I find worrisome. Normally the scientific community is pretty good with information, but I haven't been able to find anything new on this subject...anyone else?). Assuming that these two points (I call them stumbling blocks) in the near-future are solved, I think that opens the debate on human cloning anew. Call it far-fetched, or whatever, it is most likely something that we (and upcoming generations) will have to deal with.

Did any of you ever saw movie called 6th day?? It;s about cloning humans and stuff..

Common Ignorace:

quote:

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1) You can't just have one hanging out for limb replacements. It'd be like taking an arm from your brother (although some of you freaky asylum addicts wouldn't think twice.)

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Read:

quote:

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As a matter of fact, somewhere around 5 years ago, a scientist managed to grow brainless tadpoles. Where's the ethical issues with growing organs?

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[This message has been edited by warjournal (edited 06-18-2001).]

warjournal, I think Apostasos was saying that it would be "wrong" to use a clone for parts replacement, not impossible medically.

And if that is so then I would like to ask Apostasos what kind of myopic world he lives in to think that could never happen? Can't you see all the human rights abuses in the world that are happening right now in this day and age? What makes you think that sort of crap ended with the Nazis and isn't just waiting to happen again a little closer to home?

quote:

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No Neo-Nazi/Hiler-esque scenarios are feasible. Unless a neo-hitler wanted to play daddy to a few million kids for almost twenty years with no one else's knowledge.

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Well, if you read the other posts you would have noticed that the Neo-Nazi scenarios I mentioned involved using clones without a brain stem. This would mean that all society would have to do is make sure that people without brain stems were declared "not human" and therefore not protected by the Constitution. We celebrate the fact that we've relegated fetuses to this category, how would brainless clones be much more of a stretch???

Whoops. I read Apostasos's post wrong. Apologies.

More thoughts. Back later.

I think it's time to broaden the horizon's a bit more, and think. If it doesn't happen in America, then somewhere else. But it will happen. There's just to much money behind it. And those that don't do it, will fall behind. Consider the history of the net. Human cloning will become a world-wide issue (if it's not already). Whether its 'humane' or not, is just a side issue. Moreover should be the concern, who will be able to have access to such technology (IMHO). As with all technology, it is neither good or evil, it all depends on how people apply it.

Life on earth is a neverending chaotic journey, not a planned goal or destination.
Why are some of us so arrogant as to think that we are the end of the line?
Gotta love evolution...Every empire falls sometime...

mobrul

Well, not trying to be mister fancy pants here but a little homework required:
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/jkimball/BiologyPages/C/CNS.html

and
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=brain%20stem

..

Yes, my buggy friend, everyone would consider clones without brain stems to be not human... But that's because they would be either lifeless corpses or floating brains independent of bodies (and I guess a blood supply and etc.). I hope you all can now make that connection from the aforementioned links, if you even bothered clicking on them. I hope I don't come off as nasty or anything, because the last thing I want is someone to close an eye or ear to knowledge. (Which I don't pretend to have an exclusive right to.) I think WebShamen needs a round of applause for posting such a broad thread since this could be divided into moral, physiological, religious, political and just plain tons of threads.

Now to my commenters, I concede that anything IS possible although I find it HIGHLY unlikely that a nation- it would take MASSIVE resources to birth an army artificially, not to mention train them- would focus so much on making an army of corpses. Now I'm not a doctor, all I know was from college psychology class, so if someone can post a link to correct my reply I'm all for it. But as far as I know, the peripheral nervous system would be almost non-existant without the brain stem, and many of it's primary functions like controlling vital organs would be seriously hindered or completely disabled. No hearbeat, no breathing, no coordination, no neonazi army of the night to come and pester you.

Warjournal, sorry I didn't make that clearer, I can see that was a little ambiguous.

A brainless clone is not a person. Just a hunk of designer flesh.

A clone with a brain is a person, completely independent of the gene donor. A completely seperate entity. St. Seneca did a fine job with this.

Is a Hitler scenario possible? Yes, but it doesn't take the genetic code to do it. Hitler's power didn't come from his genes, but from his ability to instill his own non-sequitors in other people (and a few other tactics).

Another Hitler, Mozart, or Warjournal from genetic material? That's just plain ridiculous.

"Boys from Brazil"

I just saw that report on a canadian organization devoted to cloning. Their site is www.clonaid.com, btw. I'm not really sure if I have an opinion at all. From an ethical or religious viewpoint, the answer is "no", but from a medicinal or scientific viewpoint, it's "yes". I think we need to differ between cloning of single organs (e.g. somebody has had an accident and lost an eye, ear or whatever it may be) and the cloning of complete persons (maybe somebody is already cloning a whole army to finish us all off...)

cloning is a very sensitive topic, I agree (and I see that, kinda full in here...)

I sometimes wonder if we guide ourselves or if our genes are the ones who guide us.
Maybe they buildt us humans to find out about themselves?

There are religions (buddhist or so) which don't believe in god and some say that good was a superior alien who genetically put another alien on this planet, took it's rib (Adam's rib, that would be) and make a female out of it. (You know, have a look at the rib, change its gene-configuration).

I always wondered how I would react after seeing myself running down the street.
What if my clone robbed a bank and the PO's are after me?
The movie "The Seventh day" (or so) with Arnold Schwarzenegger (He looks like a modifief clone, doesn't he?) the guys who make clones kinda control the world. And mister Hitler-Clone is trying to do that.

I like Hamburgers and wouldn;t mind if I ate more of them. I guess, 3rd world people wouldn;t either. It could solve their starving problem.

k10


only change remains

Well, I'm not really worried that someone will try to 'clone' an army when it is so much cheaper to use nano-machines, so...what I do find disturbing is that with a bit of advancement of current technologies, people of power and money may find a way to drastically prolong their own lives (consider a Bill Gates that lives to be over 1000 years...). Warjournal said it best

*Is a Hitler scenario possible? Yes, but it doesn't take the genetic code to do it. Hitler's power didn't come from his genes, but from his ability to instill his own non-sequitors in other people (and a few other tactics). *

If such a person was able to prolong their own existence, or overcome the threat of death, I think that is scary.
On the other hand, prolonging the lives of very brilliant minds and talents (that are relatively stabile) I find quite interesting. Just not sure how to draw the line. And that is the problem, isn't it?

Nanorobotics... the possibilities are endless for both "evil" and "good." Killer viruses that you can't see selectively killing all who do not possess the constructed nano-anti-bodies, obscenely devious weapons/armor, prolonged life (to an Nth degree), enhancing your brain cells to better-than-microprocessor levels... the list goes on into the unknown. Maybe mortality isn't so bad after all. WebShamen brings up an interesting conundrum with who to preserve, since obviously our "little" population problem would grow enormous if everyone started living for a few hundred years. Then you get into problems about the power-elite living close to ever, making even more money and power and ruling over the plebians that don't have money and privilege to be deemed worthy to live forever... anywho, looks as though this post is going awry so... bye