Preserved Topic: Virgin Birth 2 (Page 2 of 2)

hippielemming,

1. "...the sixth month of what..."

It was the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy with John. In Luke 1:36, Gabriel says this very thing, "And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren."

2. "...and that the Holy Spirit came unto her and blessed the unborn child."

When the text says "with child by the Holy Spirit", that means the Holy Spirit conceived the child at that time. It does not mean the Holy Spirit blessed an already existing child.

3. "...when the child leaped into her womb..."

This does not mean the child jumped into her womb but that the child in her womb jumped at the news Mary brought. There is no reason to think either pregnancy was other than a normal 9 months.

4. "Isn't Joseph the son of Jacob? Or do they just call him the son of David, in the manner that he descended from David."

Wrong Joseph!!! You're right about Joseph in the OT being the son of Jacob but that Joseph was not the same Joseph mentioned in the NT. But you are also correct in pointing out the fact that Joseph (father of Jesus) was descended from David. In fact, the genealogy in Matthew traces Joseph's bloodline. Luke, on the other hand, traces the lineage of Mary's side of the family.

Does that make sense?

Relain,

By the beginning of the 4th century a huge debate was raging in Christendom. Was Jesus Christ actually God? or was he the first and highest ranking created being?

An Alexandrian presbyter named Arius, believed Jesus was a created being and not God, therefore no Trinity as we know it. To cut a long story short the church convened a council in the city of Nicea in 325 AD. This council, presided over by the Roman Emperor Constantine, rejected Arius' view of Christ and formally adopted the doctrine of the Trinity as we know it.

You will not find the word "trinity" mentioned anywhere in the Bible, but you *will* find the essence of the doctrine there. Basically, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both given equal status with the Almighty in the scriptures and that's really all the doctrine of the Trinity purports.

Nice to see the thread still moving.
Taking a nice direction to i must say. Sorry for the bad english, it follows my accent I guess.

What you guys are discribing is one of the greatest mysteries and experiences you can have as a human, The ability to have an encounter with your creator and have the touch of what it means to be truly alive with life itself. Most look at this event with a blind eye and see nothing of what it means to have the same energy that brings reason to your being. This energy also has the ability to overcome emotional death.

This born again experience is every bit as real as any feeling or emotion you have ever felt before.

Its so powerful that you cant contain it in the old man or old wine skin. As soon as the Holy spirit enters your soul, it is doomed.

The power of christ entering the realm of your soul is deadly. It will conquer all things and all emotions that bring death to your soul. Thank GOD for the Holy spirit. And thank GOD for his mercy to allow us to participate in life itself and not just wonder about it.

This is a great Mystery. And one of the most un tapped understandings we have as a humanity.

Two things: I'm going to go waaaay back in this topic, and provide an interesting insight on one of the repeated aspects of Jesus.

The first will deal with a question that I've been dying to ask. To most agnostics, or to people who don't believe one thing more than the other as a rule, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are brother/sister religions, each one taking parts of the other to develop their own versions and interpretations. Judaism "came first," Christianity was second, and Islam was third, on the historical scale of most people. I'd like to note here that the Torah was not made a great long time before Christianity was formed, and was actually made within, I believe, one hundred years before the New Testament.

Apok, I'd like to know what your opinion is on Judaism and Islam, as relating to Christianity in a historical sense. Do you see the similarities between these three, or do you consider them to be entirely different theologies?

Next is a very interesting insight. In the New Testament, it is often interpreted when Jesus was about to be stoned by the Jews, that they abhorred his good works, and simply called them blasphemy for no one particular reason or another. Historically, this is a different picture. The Jews considered Jesus' miracles to be blasphemy as it is noted that Jesus came across the Kabbalah, not necessarily by the works he did, as they commended them on their merits alone.

The Kabbalah is a very ancient, mystical book, filled with the Jewish rituals and practices taught before the Temple of Solomon was destroyed by the Romans. In this book, it is stated a spell to turn water to wine; it is stated a spell to cure the blind; it is stated a spell to have your soul be resurrected from the dead. The Kabbalah, also, is a very staunchly protected book of secrets, even by the many Jews who do not follow its teachings. For that reason, they called Jesus' miracles blasphemy, as they thought he was releasing the secrets of the Kabbalah to the people without permission.

Just an interesting something.

hippielemming, are you a student? Where are you getting your information about these religions?

just a nitpick:
the written torah had its origins about 3000bc and portions of it were written out in the years that followed. the NT was put together at Nicea (in 325AD ?), when it was decided which writings would be a part of the NT and which not. the -books- included in the NT were all written after the death of jesus. i got that last piece of info from a rather long treatise on jesus in Harper's Magazine (the lit mag, not the Bazaar) a few years ago.. i forget the date. the article includes a bibliography and notes who is quoted where.

Okay! I have all the answers! Its..not..going..to..ever..stop. never.. IT WILL NEVER END. JUST GET OVER IT. =D Have a nice day.

People say everything always comes to an end, but if there is no start can their be an end?

If I can see god in a burnt bus ticket and feel contempt with my own views then what anyone else thinks or believes simple doesn't matter. Right or wrong in this regard just doesn't factor into a theological equation.

If someone else find's god in the bible or in a chruch or in some gunk on their shoe, in the end, does it really make a difference?

No, it really doesn't.

Live life, cherrish the happy moments and stop evey once in a while to appreciate yourself and everything around you. Love life, love yourself, love your friends & famialy and you'll be ok.

I am a student, actually, but I've also lived in the regions of which these religions are most prevalent. I read a lot, I ask many questions, and then I read some more, yet never do I pretend to know everything. There is always another side.

You are right on the Torah, and as you said, some portions were written later, and even more portions have been edited by high-level Rabbis. However, one of the most predominant scriptures within Judaism, the Talmud, was written very close to when Christianity and other religions were beginning to take hold. And I believe that the first scripture written, dealing specifically with Jesus, was 40 years following his death?

Edit- About the Kabbalah issue, it's often held that Jesus was not "just a normal Jew." According to later Jewish scriptures and documentation, and I believe it's held true by Christians as well, Mary was an Essene Jew. At that time, and I believe they still do, the Essene Jews follow the Kabbalah, and by the law of Matriarchy, that would technically make Jesus an Essene Jew as well by Jewish law.

[This message has been edited by hippielemming (edited 01-02-2002).]

Okay Dracusis, you definately said it better than I did. Reminds me of Dogma.. when Chris Tucker said "you're all right" I think thats his name anyway.. Famous last words from Bmud..

-Bmud-

Just a random addition to the thread, the other night on A&E i caught "The First Thousand Years of Christianity", a show that relays the historical decisions throughout the beginning of Christianity. Absolutely fascinating stuff, and answers a lot of questions that some in this thread seem to have....

chris


KAIROSinteractive

First let me say that i see the bible as 3 parts containing 2 major energy bases. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of GOOD and evil.

In The tree of life you have the principles of everlasting. In the other tree you have the principles of good and evil which are distructive or never lasting. Two energy bases with 2 different outcomes.

This 3 part theme is throughout the bible as a principle to key you into which part of those energy bases are being used. The Old testiment or old age is full of the struggles of good and evil. Fascinating stories that show the depth and power of these energies.

In the bible you are
(1) right standing with GOD (righteouseness)
(2 )A good man doomed to the root of evil and a concousness that condemns him
(3) an evil man who has no concouse or knows no right or wrong (GOD sees no difference between good and evil)

I also believe that there are 2 true religeons. The religeon of the heavens (spiritual life) Issacc and the religeon of the flesh Ishmael ( the 5 senses)

So how do i see the 3 groups you mentioned.

The christians are following the spirit and aligning themself with lifes forces .(this is the righteouse road or right standing in the order of all everlasting principles)

The Jews are still looking for the messiah. This is the religeouse crowd. They care about good intentions and self intentions and have been called lawyers that keep people from the kingdom. The jews claimed Jesus hasnt come yet,

And the muslims who practise Islam.

The christians are following a faith based on self sacrifice, the jews are following a faith based on the law and the muslims are following a faith based on the senses. All these followers are from the same cultures.

But all the three mentioned are all in the bible and are explained as the basic power bases of mans will. The bible gives us a clear look at human thought and thought process when mixed with rigteousness, good, and evil. The bible isnt a pretty book about a GOD its a book on what to fear from your own soul. A sort of prophetic warning for all born lucky enough to read and understand it.

You dont have to believe in GOD for GOD to be real, just look at your soul, its real. Now watch it become troubled.



[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 01-07-2002).]