Preserved Topic: Virgin Birth 2

Thanks mobril
I do have to apologize for one thing. Because im surrounded by believers in my faith and as a member of a family ministry, it is a given that you dont force a belief on anyone. Ive never been in a situation where you can actualy read someones thoughts. Most the time people will agree with you and then really wipe you out behind closed doors. The internet has given me the ability to actually hear what people are thinking and not just saying. Not having to face someone gives people the oppoertunity to let you have from across the globe. This kind of tolerance is what i need to be exposed to.

I should have used phrases like 'this is what i believe" sooner. I forget sometimes people need to hear this so as not to feel attacked by my own speculation. Mobril's post was very careful and thought out. I enjoy his wisdom. And my spelling and punctuation is rusty . I never was a good writer, something my dad hates but hes letting me grow.

Bugamis i dont believe jesus was born a GOD i believe he was born a son. And as a son who saw what his father was , and was saying tells me his spirit was devine and thats all you need to achieve is a devine spirit. We all are learning how to operate as a devine spirit . not because we are one but because we have a devine spirit teaching us. The breath that GOD breathed into everyone of us has the ability to become a son of GOD and a brother to Christ the devine spirit is a gift from GOD. Where to learn and become the fruits of the spirit. This allows the devine spirit to be what we become

And no im not a seventh day adventist :-) not that i dislike that belief i just wouldnt go there

Like i said i believe the virgin birth is being born again from above. This notion that jesus was a GOD only floats with me if its because hes a son and an offshoot of GOD but not GOD himself. I am an offshot of my dad but im not my dad. I take on his likeness but i came from him i wasnt cloned. Im not sure what you believe but i know what modern christianity believes. The garden of gasemity is a great reminder that temptation needs a holy spirit to over come and even jesus struggles with that. Jesus was part flesh as well as spirit that spirit was the blessing GOD talks about when he blesses 3-4 generations. Im a second generstion blessing from my lineage. And its our families hope we can evolve into the 4th generation blessed. We know what the curse looks like now lets see what the blessing looks like. My dad was born again at 24 i was born again at 12. We believe the 4th generation will be even stronger in overcoming temptations.

There is a pattern and a promise that points in this direction.

I know ive been told i should start thinking on my own that i should get out more. The truth is i do, yet i find what i have is far greater then anything out there at the moment. It wont be long till my 18th birthday and according to the government i could join the service and be granted the trigger finger or the right to kill for my government. I think i can think for myself now and at a higher level then most if not all my friends. I love what i am and what i believe. Im not afraid of saying i know the truth because my confidence comes from the spirit and not an ego. I believe if you have seen the truth you can speak the truth and speak it with boldness. Now it might be my truth but it is mine :-)

Bugamis what about you what are your thoughts on the subject, i dont mind the questions but what about your theology?


Bugamis where you talking trinity or devine spirit?





KOOL thaanks for the tip

[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-22-2001).]

A little hint, when you edit your messages multiple times, make sure that you delete "[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-22-2001).]" everytime you edit it so it only looks like you editted it once

Ok, after spending quite a while wading thru part 1 I think i can make some comments now

One thing that struck me was a comment not really related to this, but the idea that some Christians find the idea of a virgin birth ridiculous and would be provoked. Um, why is it up to them to decide what's right and what's not? Some faiths/philosophies/etc. allow you to pick and choose what you believe, but Christianity, for the most part, is not one of them. There's lots of different "flavors", most of whom end up following man more than God (and then wonder why they're not growing or seeing God move), but I guess the basic idea of "we believe this is the Word of God, now let's edit it" seems rather off IMO. But anyway...

I think Bugs and I share a pretty similar theological view from past discussions, my thoughts in general pretty much line up with his. I believe Jesus was the Son of God but born a man, he was God here on Earth; he was the ultimate sacrifice God could make, putting himself here in a human form to understand what we go through and eventually fufill prphecy. And I completely believe the Virgin Birth happened, with the things I've seen and heard of God doing I have no problems believing that God could create an instant pregnancy if He so desired

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

So was jesus a GOD or a son? Did GOD sacrifice a GOD or did GOD redeam a sinless will?

I think that GODS devine spirit was in Jesus and the devine was his spirit but his soul was human. And i think when the truth became flesh, that ability to use the truth with a devine spirit was the power that overcame sin. GOD was with the people of the old testiment ,so GOD was present then. But to have a presence in people was the promise. It was one thing to have the ten commandments and GOD controling sin thru animal scarifice. But its another thing to have that power of GOD in your heart to overcome sin thru a sacrifice that destroys sin once and for all.

Christ said that when he accends to the father and becomes the first one to become a perfect sacrifice, he would pour out a spirit that would allow us to do the same thing. Have the power to overcome sin. Its the same spirit i believe jesus carried in his soul that allowed him to overcome temptation. Jesus is discribed as the second Adam not GOD.

What was he filled with when he was baptised? And did a GOD need to be filled with anything?

I dont know what you and Bugs talked about so i dont know your theology. But i think that if your saying Jesus had a devine spirit that helped his soul choose his fathers wish over his humanistic wish then i agree. I dont believe that Jesus was a GOD but had the power of GOD, just like we all do who has the devine spirit enter our soul. Once the Holy Spirit enters our soul we to can overcome sin.

Then we become a son of GOD just like Jesus and we then become a brother to Christ as one with the same likeness. All because of the spirit that GOD granted us.

Is this the same or am i seeing different then you and Bugamis.



[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-22-2001).]

Apok,

As more an more of the details of your theology became clear to me, I started to suspect you wouldn't hold that Jesus was one with the Father. When it comes to that issue I believe very strongly that Jesus was God. No, I'm not referring to a Divine Spirit as you're describing.

Now if you have any hopes of changing my view of that, let me just say right now it will have to be done with scripture. Remember, I'm Sola Scriptura here.

The reason I believe we was 100% God and 100% man is because of the New Testament writings. So perhaps a good place to start would be with the first chapter of John's gospel. Please explain to me why that doesn't say "Jesus was God", specifically verse 1 and verse 14.

I'll go ahaead and agree with everything Bugs just said 100%, and I'm pretty much of the same mindset when it comes to scripture as well. What you explain as "God's spirit coming onto Christ" sounds more like what we're offered as Christians than what Christ has. What I'm getting you're saying is that he was simply the first to have that rather than being the Son of God.

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/Jeebus

Interesting picture, wrong holiday :-)

So Bugamis are you saying Jesus was born of an incoruptable seed, born as a son of GOD sent to us to become the incorrubtable sacrifice? Does this make him God? a GOD? Whatb part of GOD? I am interesting in how you piece this together

What part of Jesus was GOD and what was Man?

What was the purpose for the water baptism?

And do you believe this scripture.
John 10:34 The greek reads it this way
The Christ tell us plainly - answered them jesus I told you and ye do not believe; the works which i do in the name of the father of me, these witnesses concerning me; but ye do not believe because ya are not of the sheep- my. the sheep My the voice of me hear and i know them and they follow me, and i give to them life eternal and by no means they perish into the age and shall not seize anyone them out of the hand of me. The Father of me who has given to me [then] all greater is and no one can to sieze out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father one we are.
Lifted again stones the jews that they may stone him

answered them - Jesus. Many works i showed you good of the Father; because of which of them work me stone ye.
Answered him the jews concerninf a good work we do not stone thee but concerning blasphmey and because thou a man makest thyself GOD answerd them Jesus is it not having been writien in the law of you I said ...Gods ye are.... If those he called GODS with whom the word of GOD was and cannot to be broken the scripture whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world ye tell

I know the greek is a bit hard to decipher if your not used to Greek. There are a lot of present text here. Thats why i wrote the greek translation. It is a present situation Jesus is talking about. The age hes talking about is the one there in.

Do you believe this scripture and how do you decern it. I took this approach to the virgin birth so you wouldnt think it was my words. You say Jesus is GOD and i believe that. My question is do you believe this scripture.




[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-23-2001).]

Apok, I would like to stay focused so we don't waste each other's time. Before you go into all those other questions, let me reiterate John 1:1,14.

Since you're fond of the Greek ordering of the English words:

1. In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with - God, and God was the Word.

14. And the Word flesh became and trabernacled among us, and we beheld the glory of him, glory as of an only begotten from a father, full of grace and of truth.

I'm telling you that these two verses literally say that Jesus was God. It is important for me to know how and why you say Jesus wasn't God in light of this and before we move on to the baptism and 10:34.

Bugamis. Let me say that the start of this post was to eventualy take anyone who wanted to converse seriously to the text i mentioned. Where Jesus was confronted by jews and was about to be stoned and he said for what works do you to stone me for. And they said not for good works but for blasphmy. And then Jesus brought them to a the law that says :I said you are Gods.

Now if jesus was the incorruptable seed and is God and where to take on the incoruptable seed and an incoruptable seed is a God then do you believe as i do that Yes jesus was the word of God the incoruyptable seed but once we take on this incoruptable seed which i believe is the born again experience where where to be born from abaove and then look like Romans 8 and then look like 1Peter 1:23

Can we agree that these scripture are proving Jesus was GOD because he was born incoruptable. And where to take on that same nature.

I wanted you to say he was God so i could bring in the rest of these scriptures. The undisputable truth is, where to take on the same nature.

I had to know how deep you can get in scripture and has your doctorin faced these scriptures with an understanding that was based on the first century.

Its far better for you in my post to say the things you say is true then for me to think you believe them

So yes Jesus was definatly GOD the scripture you bring are the correct scriptures now lets get to the virgin birth and what that truly means to us.

I want to continue this till it reaches the intended purpose of the scripture, and that is what i believe is also taking on the incoruptable seed. Then the born again experience is truly an experience and not a goose bump revival for a day so we can get back to our old lives.

Im just weanting to know you and your understanding better.

Well its off to a great day. The new sound board is awesome and is making the sanctuarysing, the day is ordained. blessing brother and may peace fill your day.

Apok

"Can we agree that these scripture are proving Jesus was GOD because he was born incoruptable."

No. The scriptures don't say that he was God *because* he was born with an incorruptible seed. John says he was God "period". Think about God the Father for a second. Do you explain *why* he is who he is? I doubt it. God simply IS.

Bugamis
The scripture says GOD is our Father, and as a Father we can have an intimet relationship with him. I John1-5.

He may be GOD but he is also a Father. That is because of the Holy Spirit the incoruptable spirit. And if the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all flesh then those that recieve it is also born of the same incoruptable spirit. The greek word for incoruptable is used when refrencing Jesus and to those who follow.

Is this part of your doctorin.

The advisary has blinded more christians in the 2 most important doctorins in our faith. The born again experience and the death on the cross.


While every one is claiming born again , hardly anyone is experiencing it. What is your spin on these so i may understand what your belief is.

Like you say lets produce scripture.

What scripture are you leaning on about being born again.

It is true incoruptable isnt the only measure by wich you prove anyone to be GOD but it is an important part and its a part that is attatched to immortality. If where to take on immortality then we also will have incoruptable as part of the package. Also remember the thought of the 1st century was anyone who was immortal was a GOD not the GOD but a son of GOD that was the promise eternal incoruptable righteouse life. The scripture bears this out. The problem with todays church is they refuse to let the old man go so they claim immortality is for when you die. That is a modern spin to a doctorin that is esential to a christian faith.

Im beginning to think that you might not understand this enough to discus it, if that is so ill end our discusion and move on to something else.

I enjoy conversing with you, do you want to continue. Read those text i gave you in Peter and ist John and Rom 8 and give me your spin on the scriptures. Its all basic doctrin to the born again experience.




[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-24-2001).]

"Im beginning to think that you might not understand this enough to discus it..."

It would be a mistake to confuse disagreement with an inability to understand. Tell me, if I had said that to you, how would you have taken it? It's a terribly insulting thing to say.

I've been trying to find out more details about your theology and I came across this, http://www.posword.org/ Some of the teachings there read word for word some of the things you've conveyed to us, especially this article, http://www.posword.org/articles/wade/iseed01.shtml

Is this is a good place for me to read more about your position?

o O (Bugs might have just seen the light!!!!)

interesting reading btw guys....

Bugamis i would have taken it as a brother trying to open the heart of another to see something that came from revelation based on what was written in these post.

A Christian who brings love and mercy to the table cant be insulted. That is not the works of GOD or the spirit but of the flesh. And the works of the flesh is the enemy. Believe me the flesh tried to attack me here and slightly succeded with my exchange with DL & DG. Ive let that rest and want only friendship.

The site you referd to was a great read. I didnt read all the works but the flavour was there.The truths that where mentioned, where most of what i believe for the same reasons. What i did read explained my position better.

There is a devine wind blowing thru the christian community as the ability to reach out has become easier. Far to long big churches with big budgets have flooded the book shelfs with terrible doctrin only to snare un aware seekers. Well the internet has broken that and the truth is finally filtering out.

To many believers want to claim things they havnt been guided by the spirit into. There taught but never experience anything. Yet some of us have recieved revelation and are experiencing the same christian walk as the first deciples who became apostiles.

Notice when Jesus spoke in front of the assembly Luke 4:18 notice he said that he came to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord then said that Today this scripture has been fullfilled in your hearing. That means Jesus revealed the day of the Lord that everyone is seeking, its not a mystery. It came .this is one of the most damning scriptures to futurist who are stIll waitng for the promise and claim we cant take on a righteouse nature. The religeouse jews didnt see it and that mistake is still in the church.


I would suggest continuing our discusion so i can reveal more. Ill let time and the walk thru scripture be the judge. Im not here to proclaim i have the answeres but i can put a different look to them that are based totaly on scripture. There is a devine wind at our backs and the blessing is there for all to have.

I consider you a friend who might have great gifts to share just like i believe i have great gifts to share. Like i said scripture is all i know and bringing them together is a gift.

If you think im piling up false witness say so and ill move to something else.

But i didnt mean to hurt with my statement, not everyone has the ability to live there faith 24/7 and be in the ministry. A lot of seriouse believers dont have that kind of time in todays economy. In thought that could be a situation that you are in. forgive me it wont happen again



[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-24-2001).]

I guess i'll just step back as my obviously limited intellectual skills couldn't possibly have a broad enough understanding of this Nah, I'll try anyway. I considered that quite a condescending statement as well BTW.

Also, the word is doctrine. Not poking fun, that's just getting annoying to read.

Apok, in the greek translation of John 10:34-38 you leave out some rather key parts of the scripture, the translation of several issues that refer to Christ as the Son of God. The general idea I'm getting from what you wrote, to oversimplify, is that Christ was simply the first to be born again and we're following just like him. Is that right?

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

Bugamis I just finished that article and i can say yes to what i believe and have been revealed. The one thing i wasnt sure where he was going was with the blessings. To many christians think GOD wants to bless them with riches. The riches GOD speaks is from the spirit and all the gifts GOD had for Adam in the garden. The gifts of the spirit. No where is GOD speaking of better cars bigger paychecks and better stuff. He didnt explain where he was going with that so i asume he ment the gifts of the spirit, seeing as he had everything else right in my opinion. Thats what my dad preaches to the church and what i preach to the youth.

Good stuff

Fig not really. Im talking about Adam being born again. The first Adam was born of the earth and became the fallen nature. The jesus birth was the word or truth made flesh. Jesus wasnt born again Adam was. This is why Jesus is refered to as the second adam. Like you said 100% GOD and 100% man. Jesus wasnt Adam he was the devine spirit. Jesus became the teaching and the power that allowed Adam to be sanctified, redeamed , justified , glorafied. All the humanistic struggles Jesus went thru he went thru as a born again Adam, but had the devine spirit to help Adam this time. Thats why he passed all the test. Jesus was GOD or the word walking with Adams soul. But Jesus was a man. GOD wasnt pleased with the first Adam but was pleased with the second Adam. Which is why GOD said this is my son whom i am pleased The whole bible is the walk of Adam from birth to fallen nature to redemption. God just revealed it as history in time but history to every mans soul. We all experience life as the first Adam then the re-birth into a devine nature. Thats all the bible is is a road map of our soul.

So the works are much bigger then just jesus taken on the form of man so he could be just the perfect sacrifice . He came to show human kind what the born again experience looked like. With the help of the spirit Christ poured out on all flesh, you can walk the same path. This is the follow me understanding.

I started this virgin post because of the great significense it represents and why its so important to get this right if we are to become true christians. Plus its that time of year to talk about these events in detail. I just wanted to open up discusion so we could exchange ideas.

Ill let the scriptures reveal themself i just believe them



[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-24-2001).]

Apok, your belief in the scriptures isn't the problem, but I think you're reading them with too many preconceptions and therefore missing their actual meaning. I have seen people do this before and I find it very troubling. It seems to me you are starting with a premise and "looking" for it in the scripture as opposed to accepting what is actually being said.

For example, you said, "With the help of the spirit Christ poured out on all flesh". You didn't get that from scripture but it sure fits with your premise. Joel prophecied that, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh;". Peter goes on to use this passage on the day of Pentecost too. This is an example of why it seems to me that you're taking some liberties with the scriptures.

Here's something else I've been meaning to bring up and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you believe that when you actually become a Xian, that you will no longer sin. Is that right? If so, then how do you square that with 1 John 1:5-10? I think that passage is dealing with the practical problem of even though we've been reborn as new creations, we will still sin and therefore require forgiveness on an ongoing basis. Why else would be give us that awesome promise to forgive us when we fall, even after we're Xians?

Way earlier in this thread, you said you weren't a Xian yet but had hoped to become one soon. How is it that you can be preaching to others then? In your view of things, how do you become a Xian and how long does it take? And if it takes longer than just a few moments, how did all those people that Peter preached to on the day of Pentecost become Xians that very day? Take the Ethiopian eunuch as another example of someone saved in a very short time.

Bugamis if your a chrsitian which means christ like spirit and you sin you . what am i missing?

[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-24-2001).]

We still sin because we're human my friend. It's explained right there in 1 John. Christ didn't sin because he was the Son of God. When Christ left us he sent His Spirit to dwell within us. This is the Spirit we receive at the rebirth along with the forgiveness of our sins just like it says in Acts 2:37-39.

And what about when jesus said pick up your bed and sin no more. I dont think he said but when you do again ill be here to forgive you again. You might move on to a another sin that is killing you, but the one you where forgiven for has been cleansed by a true sacrifice. if you fall back after you have been cleansed That is what animal sacrifices did in the old testiment or the old age. It was a temporary fix. Every year GODS chosen people had to bring there best flock to be sacrificed as a substitute for there constant falling nature. Do you have a constant falling nature?

Then came the new age or the new testiment, the favorable year of the Lord where a true sacrifice would be offerd one that could wash sin forever with the blood of that sacrifice. Then where taught to walk out our salvation and bring all our sins to the alter so GOD can cleanse them with a true sacrifice.

He poured that spirit out on all flesh so we to could use the power of that blood to wash our sin. That day wasnt called christian day. It was called the day of penticost. This is when the spirit of the true sacrifice was poured out to help us wash our sins forever. The experience of the indwelling spirit was a moment in time but the work that it was sent to do could take a lifetime.

I know why believers fall short and have to repent all the time. Its called bad doctorin.
Why is it people want all the blessings of GOD yet refuse to give up the old wine skin. Or the old man . We call them proffessional repenters. they love the sin and love to repent. They must , they do it over and over. No one is forcing them to sin they just refuse to say no.

Bugamis tell me one sin you cant say no to?

That quote you showed me was a misquote. i didnt see that in my writings. That is not what i should have quoted. I know the scripture. My mistake

The only liberty i take in scripture is english and a progressive slang. If you wish i can speak 1st century

If you can prove to me that we cant take on a sinless nature then im all ears. I believe scripture bears out the fact we can.

Care to prove your point.

The christian thing. no i am not a chrsit like spirit. im still working out some sins. I teach because im farther along in the journey just like Paul was when he wrote most of the New Testiment. Paul fought this untill he finally realized he had walked out his salvation. He wasnt perfected in a day and neither are you or i or anyone else. Where called to walk out our salvation so we can be redeamed. Some take longer then other.

Explain what the spirit that dwells in us does when where reborn and forgivin of our sins?

[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-24-2001).]

I'll be checking back in here later to answer more fully so this post will be short. I just wanted you to know that I didn't misquote you. Please search this page for "With the help of the spirit Christ poured out on all flesh" and you will see the post where you typed it. It's in the post just before I mentioned it.

I can only take what you type to be what you mean. I read what you type very carefully and so I suggest you type only what you mean or I'll have to say in a *very* southern accent... "What we have here... is a failure... to communicate."

you two need to go for coffee

=)

Jason

Ok, I'm with you on some of the idea with Adam and Christ, where Adam represents our fallen nature (original sin) and Christ being the ultimate sacrifice made for us. I don't know where you draw your conclusion that Christ is Adam's soul though, that i find a little odd.

With regards to Paul "walking out his salvation" at what point does Paul in any way say that he is not yet saved in his writings? He talks about how he still sins even tho he does not want to (Romans) and thinks less of himself as his writings progress, but at no point does he doubt or question his salvation or, as far as i know, say he will arrive at a "flawless" point.

BTW, no offense intended, but if you're 18 and at home I don't care how spiritually mature you are, you can't be too much farther along in your journey because you haven't really been tested with anything yet. Spending a year or two away from home causes you to really examine what you personally believe and practice, not just what you know.

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

Thats true Bugs i did write that and i said i did . It was just my bad typing and grammer. The internet has silenced my mouth and awoken my fingers and i am not a good communicator or typer. Sometimes my post are to big and i cant see simple mistakes.

I will end this here because we see 2 differnt paths to salvation. I truly believe in a righteouse life . I see examples of it all the time .

You believe we are maortal and will sin even though we are born again and have the power to say no to sin.

It was a good discusion and you did help me with my writing skills i am getting better :-)

I hope you find the faith you are seeking as my hope is to find mine. Maybe we will pick this up again sometime. Thanks for being there. If your first thought s about this post is im coping out. Not so. We will go round and round with the born again spirit theology and i think ive said all there is to say on this subject. Plus that article you mentioned yesterday can do a lot of explaining what i think also. Have a great Christmas and ill see you on the boards again hopefully. Peace to you and your family

Apok

Fig i didnt say Jesus was the soul of adam i said he walked with his soul jesus had the nature of Man thru Mary with the power of GOD to walk Adam or man to redemption.

If you look at it like this. Every time Adams or mans nature was tempted jesus stepped in and overcame the temptation. When Adams soul wanted to pass the cup to someone else Adams nature was impowerd by Jesus and he took the cup in gasemity. Jesus was the obediant son Adam wasnt, But adam is redeamed because of jesus. Thats what i believe.

I want to thank you also for the exchange of ideas. And though i would agree that at 18 i havnt seen all things, but being in a ministry where the world comes to you in the form of other people i dont need to see what im going to face. I do know i have the tools to face all trials and with the power of Christ will overcome everything the world will trow at me. I am well prepared to strike out on my own and expect to. Ill be here as long as the forum exist, maybe youll see me grow even stronger in faith.

Ill let time be the judge there. I do have a slight advantage over most. Lets wait till i fall flat before you speak i told you sos. I wont except failure in the scriptures or what they can do for me.

Blessingd Fig and i hope we can converse again.

Apok



[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-24-2001).]

Fair enough, Apok. I believe you have grown and I'm glad for that. I appreciate your willingness to share your positions with us. I have learned a lot about your beliefs and I think I have a decent understanding of your theology and how you're backing it up with scripture.

Future growth opportunities? Please keep working on your spelling, punctuation, and grammar. You said earlier that brother to brother admonitions cannot offend, well take this as one of those.

I hope you will consider some of my arguments and how I am having trouble reconciling some of your teachings with scripture. We have fundamentally different ways of viewing scripture so I think it is best to agree to disagree at this point. You see I have only one authority for my faith, i.e. scripture. I don't use it to prove my theology, I do my best to base my theology upon it.

Merry Christmas, Apok.



[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 12-25-2001).]

I'll sum up quickly by just saying that my comments aren't intended as an "I told you so", I've got no doubt you'll be well-equipped and do well. I'll just say that I learned a lot about myself when I found myself making decisions on my own Enjoyed the discussion, God bless and Merry Christmas

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

Before I jump through my monitor and strangle you Apok, please stop capitalizing every letter of God and Jesus and whatever the hell else.

It makes you look like a second grader who can't use the English language effectively enough to convey a point so they resort to all caps for emphasis.

Hi Krets
Kretz ,i capitalize GOD and Jesus out of respect not because i want to shout at you. The bible does this and so do i. Just wanted to state my position on that. Ill leave the grade remarks as a fun jester.////.............Hope all is well with you

Thanks Bugs & Fig, ive enjoyed the talks. Our fundimentals are close to the same actually. Ive taken a different approach on how i view the Promise. It might seem strange but i assure you it builds faith and answeres a lot of questions, that is what i look for. I think Mobril hit on that subject earlier. What i believe is sanctifying and giving me the ability to overcome curses and sins and thats exciting to me. I also believe that the theology was revealed first by scripture i just use scripture to prove its own theology. I dont have to read anything into what scripture says. If the scripture says sin no more i believe it. Thats as simple as i want to get. But ive sayed that already, no need to get back into it.

The Grammer thing will take time.

Had a great christmas hope all else did. Blessings

Apok



[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 12-26-2001).]

what did the Romans ever give us?

Apok,

Ive read all your posts and I do find them interesting. You seem to have a lot of knowledge in your faith. I was curious tho...what are some of your other interests other than religion? I know its none of our business but I was wondering what you like to do other than study your faith? What kind of movies do you like? What kind of books do you like? What do you do for fun?

Like I said this really is none of our business, I just wanted to get a better idea of who Apok was.

Thanks,

I sometimes find I'm drifting
Through this life without effect;
I often wonder if I'm truly
Worth what I've been blessed.

I search through days that have been hard,
To try to understand,
The many trials that I have known,
The life that I have had.

You see me in my daily grind,
So confident and strong;
Yet when I am alone, I question
Just where I belong.

I often try too hard I find,
To analyze and guess,
To scrutinize, investigate
My life I will confess.

For somewhere deeper, there must be
Some meaning to this life,
Some way to make a difference,
Give a reason for this strife.

Is there some hidden meaning?
Some agenda to be found?
A greater purpose waiting
If I care to hang around?

It teases and it taunts me,
Always slightly out of sight;
A hazy vision out of reach,
Where darkness hides the light.

I struggle to bring clarity
To what awaits me there,
And yet this weak illusion
Always fades before my stare.

It seems the harder that I try,
To focus through the haze,
Just serves to add more questions,
Through my endless, tired gaze.

Perhaps I'm trying just too hard,
To understand it all,
For can we ever truly know
Just what we have in store?

Each incident, each moment passed,
Just adds upon the next,
But in the end, will I find truth...
Or will I be perplexed?

Perhaps I make it harder
Than it has to be sometimes,
But will my searching bring to me
My meaning over time?

Or will it leave me broken,
And confused as I feel now,
While questions bring no solitude,
To this, my wrinkled brow.


-Kit McCallum

I find poetry oh_so_much_more_interesting than religion.
I mean... at least you don't need to be blind to understand it.
And believe me.... in terms of religion I'm in between a catolic and a protestant family
with lot of non believer relatives. Yes, I've readsome the bible and a lot of other religious texts (from other religions), along with other books that messed up my head.
What do I answer when they ask me in what I believe?

"I believe I won't believe in that I believe."

Well christmas went well.
Its great to talk about what a special event took place and why it is blessing the family.

What else do i do when im not growing stronger in my beliefs. I build motorcyles. Play with digital art and mix sound.

I just finished building a sportster and sold it. I think i will find a basket shovel head and try my first big twin. I have been dealing with Photoshop for my didgital art. And i mix sound for the worship team on sunday. Thats about all i have time for. I have girls who want to date me , but im not ready to get into that yet. I need a few more years of freedom before i start getting seriouse with that realm.

Right now im building a foundation of faith, getting good at a few hobbies and waiting for my next test in life.

Thanks for asking. I am totaly into scripture though. This mystery is great to understand once you start making connections in the prophecy. What a tale it tells and what a great mystery, salavation

And now, I put myself in here.

As an example, we all know that Islam does not consider Jesus to be the Son of God, but rather the greatest prophet under Mohammed. We won't get into that, but let's stay with virgin birth:

The Qur'an gives two references to Mary being a virgin at birth, but rather says that God sent the angel Gabriel in the sixth month to confirm this virginity. Basically, the book states that Jesus was "not yet prophet, not yet standing upon the hand of God" at the time of his initial conception. It's said that Allah had nothing to do with the initial virgin conception, but was rather a blessed event of circumstance, and that the only Son of God could be conceived by Allah's own procreation.

I've always wondered, as this is something I've yet to understand in the New Testament, how does Christianity respond to the initial creation of the baby Immanuel (Jesus). As far as I can see, it picks off when Mary was already pregnant, unmarried to Joseph, yet I've still been unable to find how the baby was created, whether it be a blessing of the Father, or whatnot.

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."

And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"

And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

-- Luke 1:26-35

hippielemming, I'm not sure what more you're looking for in the NT but this is traditionally taken to mean that God's Holy Spirit was Jesus' father. I'd be interested in knowing what things you feel the NT isn't explaining about this event.

The only thing that I will comment on is that Apok's English is so bad, it's giving me a headache just trying to read it. Not trying to insult you, Apok, but please take more time to get the spelling and grammar right. It will help you state your position a lot more effectively.



"The key to discovery lies not in mathematics, but in imagination."

Mainly due to the "sixth month" part. I'm entirely confused as to the sixth month of what, and this coming from a guy trying to get a degree in religions.

Not to mention I was constantly looking in Matthew, and not Luke:

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away secretly. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.'"

Basically, all I can see is how Mary was already with child, and that the Holy Spirit came unto her and blessed the unborn child. Not to mention that the time between her greeting of Elizabeth, when the child leaped into her womb, and the time of the actual birth of Jesus, was certainly nowhere near a normal 9 months.

This is one other little problem. Isn't Joseph the son of Jacob? Or do they just call him the son of David, in the manner that he descended from David.

Just thought i'd tack this onto the thread. i remember hearing a while back that the whole concept of the trinity was the result of an arbitraty decision by one of the roman emperors because they wanted to create a monotheistic religion, as opposed to having God, Christ and the Spirit as three separate gods. Anyone know anything more about this? its kinda interesting to think that this bit of doctrine may just have been created for political reasons.

hippielemming,

1. "...the sixth month of what..."

It was the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy with John. In Luke 1:36, Gabriel says this very thing, "And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren."

2. "...and that the Holy Spirit came unto her and blessed the unborn child."

When the text says "with child by the Holy Spirit", that means the Holy Spirit conceived the child at that time. It does not mean the Holy Spirit blessed an already existing child.

3. "...when the child leaped into her womb..."

This does not mean the child jumped into her womb but that the child in her womb jumped at the news Mary brought. There is no reason to think either pregnancy was other than a normal 9 months.

4. "Isn't Joseph the son of Jacob? Or do they just call him the son of David, in the manner that he descended from David."

Wrong Joseph!!! You're right about Joseph in the OT being the son of Jacob but that Joseph was not the same Joseph mentioned in the NT. But you are also correct in pointing out the fact that Joseph (father of Jesus) was descended from David. In fact, the genealogy in Matthew traces Joseph's bloodline. Luke, on the other hand, traces the lineage of Mary's side of the family.

Does that make sense?

Relain,

By the beginning of the 4th century a huge debate was raging in Christendom. Was Jesus Christ actually God? or was he the first and highest ranking created being?

An Alexandrian presbyter named Arius, believed Jesus was a created being and not God, therefore no Trinity as we know it. To cut a long story short the church convened a council in the city of Nicea in 325 AD. This council, presided over by the Roman Emperor Constantine, rejected Arius' view of Christ and formally adopted the doctrine of the Trinity as we know it.

You will not find the word "trinity" mentioned anywhere in the Bible, but you *will* find the essence of the doctrine there. Basically, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both given equal status with the Almighty in the scriptures and that's really all the doctrine of the Trinity purports.

Nice to see the thread still moving.
Taking a nice direction to i must say. Sorry for the bad english, it follows my accent I guess.

What you guys are discribing is one of the greatest mysteries and experiences you can have as a human, The ability to have an encounter with your creator and have the touch of what it means to be truly alive with life itself. Most look at this event with a blind eye and see nothing of what it means to have the same energy that brings reason to your being. This energy also has the ability to overcome emotional death.

This born again experience is every bit as real as any feeling or emotion you have ever felt before.

Its so powerful that you cant contain it in the old man or old wine skin. As soon as the Holy spirit enters your soul, it is doomed.

The power of christ entering the realm of your soul is deadly. It will conquer all things and all emotions that bring death to your soul. Thank GOD for the Holy spirit. And thank GOD for his mercy to allow us to participate in life itself and not just wonder about it.

This is a great Mystery. And one of the most un tapped understandings we have as a humanity.

Two things: I'm going to go waaaay back in this topic, and provide an interesting insight on one of the repeated aspects of Jesus.

The first will deal with a question that I've been dying to ask. To most agnostics, or to people who don't believe one thing more than the other as a rule, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are brother/sister religions, each one taking parts of the other to develop their own versions and interpretations. Judaism "came first," Christianity was second, and Islam was third, on the historical scale of most people. I'd like to note here that the Torah was not made a great long time before Christianity was formed, and was actually made within, I believe, one hundred years before the New Testament.

Apok, I'd like to know what your opinion is on Judaism and Islam, as relating to Christianity in a historical sense. Do you see the similarities between these three, or do you consider them to be entirely different theologies?

Next is a very interesting insight. In the New Testament, it is often interpreted when Jesus was about to be stoned by the Jews, that they abhorred his good works, and simply called them blasphemy for no one particular reason or another. Historically, this is a different picture. The Jews considered Jesus' miracles to be blasphemy as it is noted that Jesus came across the Kabbalah, not necessarily by the works he did, as they commended them on their merits alone.

The Kabbalah is a very ancient, mystical book, filled with the Jewish rituals and practices taught before the Temple of Solomon was destroyed by the Romans. In this book, it is stated a spell to turn water to wine; it is stated a spell to cure the blind; it is stated a spell to have your soul be resurrected from the dead. The Kabbalah, also, is a very staunchly protected book of secrets, even by the many Jews who do not follow its teachings. For that reason, they called Jesus' miracles blasphemy, as they thought he was releasing the secrets of the Kabbalah to the people without permission.

Just an interesting something.

hippielemming, are you a student? Where are you getting your information about these religions?

just a nitpick:
the written torah had its origins about 3000bc and portions of it were written out in the years that followed. the NT was put together at Nicea (in 325AD ?), when it was decided which writings would be a part of the NT and which not. the -books- included in the NT were all written after the death of jesus. i got that last piece of info from a rather long treatise on jesus in Harper's Magazine (the lit mag, not the Bazaar) a few years ago.. i forget the date. the article includes a bibliography and notes who is quoted where.

Okay! I have all the answers! Its..not..going..to..ever..stop. never.. IT WILL NEVER END. JUST GET OVER IT. =D Have a nice day.

People say everything always comes to an end, but if there is no start can their be an end?

If I can see god in a burnt bus ticket and feel contempt with my own views then what anyone else thinks or believes simple doesn't matter. Right or wrong in this regard just doesn't factor into a theological equation.

If someone else find's god in the bible or in a chruch or in some gunk on their shoe, in the end, does it really make a difference?

No, it really doesn't.

Live life, cherrish the happy moments and stop evey once in a while to appreciate yourself and everything around you. Love life, love yourself, love your friends & famialy and you'll be ok.

I am a student, actually, but I've also lived in the regions of which these religions are most prevalent. I read a lot, I ask many questions, and then I read some more, yet never do I pretend to know everything. There is always another side.

You are right on the Torah, and as you said, some portions were written later, and even more portions have been edited by high-level Rabbis. However, one of the most predominant scriptures within Judaism, the Talmud, was written very close to when Christianity and other religions were beginning to take hold. And I believe that the first scripture written, dealing specifically with Jesus, was 40 years following his death?

Edit- About the Kabbalah issue, it's often held that Jesus was not "just a normal Jew." According to later Jewish scriptures and documentation, and I believe it's held true by Christians as well, Mary was an Essene Jew. At that time, and I believe they still do, the Essene Jews follow the Kabbalah, and by the law of Matriarchy, that would technically make Jesus an Essene Jew as well by Jewish law.

[This message has been edited by hippielemming (edited 01-02-2002).]

Okay Dracusis, you definately said it better than I did. Reminds me of Dogma.. when Chris Tucker said "you're all right" I think thats his name anyway.. Famous last words from Bmud..

-Bmud-

Just a random addition to the thread, the other night on A&E i caught "The First Thousand Years of Christianity", a show that relays the historical decisions throughout the beginning of Christianity. Absolutely fascinating stuff, and answers a lot of questions that some in this thread seem to have....

chris


KAIROSinteractive

First let me say that i see the bible as 3 parts containing 2 major energy bases. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of GOOD and evil.

In The tree of life you have the principles of everlasting. In the other tree you have the principles of good and evil which are distructive or never lasting. Two energy bases with 2 different outcomes.

This 3 part theme is throughout the bible as a principle to key you into which part of those energy bases are being used. The Old testiment or old age is full of the struggles of good and evil. Fascinating stories that show the depth and power of these energies.

In the bible you are
(1) right standing with GOD (righteouseness)
(2 )A good man doomed to the root of evil and a concousness that condemns him
(3) an evil man who has no concouse or knows no right or wrong (GOD sees no difference between good and evil)

I also believe that there are 2 true religeons. The religeon of the heavens (spiritual life) Issacc and the religeon of the flesh Ishmael ( the 5 senses)

So how do i see the 3 groups you mentioned.

The christians are following the spirit and aligning themself with lifes forces .(this is the righteouse road or right standing in the order of all everlasting principles)

The Jews are still looking for the messiah. This is the religeouse crowd. They care about good intentions and self intentions and have been called lawyers that keep people from the kingdom. The jews claimed Jesus hasnt come yet,

And the muslims who practise Islam.

The christians are following a faith based on self sacrifice, the jews are following a faith based on the law and the muslims are following a faith based on the senses. All these followers are from the same cultures.

But all the three mentioned are all in the bible and are explained as the basic power bases of mans will. The bible gives us a clear look at human thought and thought process when mixed with rigteousness, good, and evil. The bible isnt a pretty book about a GOD its a book on what to fear from your own soul. A sort of prophetic warning for all born lucky enough to read and understand it.

You dont have to believe in GOD for GOD to be real, just look at your soul, its real. Now watch it become troubled.



[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 01-07-2002).]