Preserved Topic: Disgusted ... Yet Not Surprised (Page 2 of 2)

yep.
as soon as the kid brings a semi-automatic to the school, the problem's gone.

never needed a gun at school........from the old school......duke it out. that is what the world leaders need to do......

democracy = mob rule.

weeee! hang on... what are we talking about?

                                                           

Yes..let violence lead where diplomacy never can.

Establish one unerring truth : Man will never evolve past their basest instincts.


Yep...I was waiting for the exact sort of scribe of the letter to show up.

Apple...Bunch...


~shakes head~

Diplomacy in this case has been tried again and again......with zero as the sum total.......guess we just keep talkin till they have nukes too....then we can play for real.




[This message has been edited by Disaster_inc (edited 09-13-2002).]

Now now, peter, just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean you have to shake his head so vigorously - that could do some permanent damage, you hear?

"Man will never evolve past their basest instincts."

Unless the Nazis had it right, then you have hit the nail on the head, DG. Being "good" cannot be bred into the species, each individual must choose that path. Sad but true.

doesn't this belong in the philosophy forum?


Code - CGI - links - DHTML - Javascript - Perl - programming - Magic - http://www.twistedport.com
ICQ: 67751342

I think it started out belonging here but it is quickly starting to belong there.

Inevitably in a discussion like this, someone will bring up the metaphor of the kid at school being picked on until he stands up for himself.

Well, just one itty bitty flaw in that metaphor - America is *not* a defenseless litle kid getting picked on. America has played it's hand as bully often enough. America is not an innocent bystander whom the terrorsits had no reason to fight.

Diplomacy?

What the fuck kind of diplomacy have we tried?? Threats? War? Economic sacntions that starve the people and don't effect the leaders?

Sure thing D_I, when you've been punched, get up and punch back.

But when you picked the fight, you damn well better expect to get punched.


{{edit - petskull: does it really matter whichi forum this is in? Works as well here as anywhere....}}




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-13-2002).]

Disaster: I must say...I've tried that old thing of 'the kid who was always picked on until he stood up for himself'. I must say (and I'm being diplomatic on this) that that really does not work. I was at one point that kid who was always picked on. I'd had enough one day, and stood up for myself to the bullies. All it meant was that I got hit harder and more often. The best way to defeat a bully is to show them that what they are doing to you does not phase you. They are out to get you, and it is that retaliation reaction they are looking for.

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

quote:

---

ALL Islamic peoples are not the problem......only a small fraction......the radicals.

---

It does seem a little unneccesary to include the word Islamic in this sentence.
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that we (all of the so called democratic nations) have voted radicals into power. The result of which is a global trend towards bigotry and intolerance.
To top it all off, we allow the media in our respective nations to perpetuate this bigotry under the guise of patriotism.

Time to wake up to ourselves - only then can we expect the rest of the worl to catch up.

<edit>
Skaarjj: I too was a bullied kid - my course of action was to learn to take a punch.
They soon got bored and moved on to a new target - he couldn't take a punch, and I felt guilty.
Seems no mattr what you try, you just can't win.
</edit>

[This message has been edited by Dufty (edited 09-13-2002).]

Well, to the 'stand up to the bullies thing'...it worked for me, and always has. Of course, I had to learn how to fight...and when not to fight...much more important as just proving that you won't take something sitting down...the 'bullies' soon found out that I could (and would) beat the living **** out of them...when they were not together. They soon decided to leave me alone, and pick on someone easier...

However, as Dl-44 pointed out, the case here is not the same...the US is the lone 'Super Power'...making it the Supreme Bully on the block. Granted, it isn't always a bully, but most of the time, it is. And many lands see us as one...right or wrong. We 'ignore' UN Charters when it is inconvienent...and refuse to sign treaties when we feel that they are not 'appropriate'. And even treaties that we do sign, aren't always honored. We use a majority of the worlds raw resources, and cry foul when someone attempts to limit that, instead of finding other ways to make us self-sufficient (read - energy).

Now, don't get me wrong, I am against what happened on 9/11. However, it's definetly not a one sided issue that Mr. Bush would like some to believe. One should ask why is America viewed by many in the world as a bully...

The *only* reason we are considered a bully is the fact that we are the lone super power. There is *no* amount of anything nice we could do to change that view. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be nicer. For starters, let's free the Iranians from the mullahs, cancel Hussein, topple Assad, and cut off support for the Saudis, then inact a *massive* Marshallesque plan for the entire region.

Amen Bugimus, why waste time dumping billions into rebuilding the country with some puppet dictatorship after we move throught it, its not japan and they dont make electronics. Baghdad can be 'New Dallas' and we simply set up a colony in Iraq with a full military presence, a forward base for the region and go from there. America hasnt gone through an imperial phase other than carving out its own borders and Puerto Rico is getting mighty lonely as the only colony of the US. Too bad our flag dosent lend itself to symbolism the way the japanese flag does, we need to make up a nice 'rising sun' type flag while we go secure our resources.

quote:

---

Optimism is a wonderful thing: If metered with intelligence and honesty.

Without it's just foolishness.

---

Yes, but without those same two qualities, pessimism is simply paranoia.

-tiki, cell 478

edit-added quote

[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 09-13-2002).]

tikigod: I'm not making an argument for pessimism though, as it relies on unknown perceived inevitabilities It's not argument, it's commentary.


And so the thread turns again..like a worm.

"We're not bad, we're misunderstood."
"Every action deserves a response."
"Sometimes blanket hate has reasons."


Sorry, I'm not swallowing. There's a whole lot of "fucked up" going around these days, and yes the U.S. has a lion's share of it at times, but it's hardly exclusive...or justifiable for that matter.

It's funny that the first thing my parents wanted to instill in me wasn't patriotism...it wasn't pride...it wasn't strength...

It was personal responsibility.

You can pick some up at the closest courtesy counter. It'd be a fascinating world if people actually tried that occasionally. Even intellects are idiots when they spend more time obfuscating than owning. Ponderance is a wonderful thing...now whatcha gonna do to change it?

"...and let it begin with me..."

But then...I could always be wrong.

I'll tell you one of the biggest questions I struggle with on this whole thing and that is, is there and/or should there be any difference between how individuals relate to one another as opposed to nations. Any thoughts on that?

Bugs:

I love that question...honestly

I think that the problem (in many of these similar cases) is that "tribal mentality" often overrides how people view the actions and responsibilities of the groups involved.

Often actions that we would say were barbaric if seen acted out between individuals are excused en masse due to that "team spirit" (yep, I'm reaching there, but it's a more perfect example for today). We don't (as a Western society) endorse the idea of an individual killing another over a dispute, however we will endorse near genocide when the dispute becomes global.

If a person were to threaten you with harm, your course of action might be limited due to legalities, personal morals, comfort levels. Were we to take it to a global scale, it isn't inconceivable to say that deaths would probably result.

And the deaths of whom?

Well the people who are most entrenched in the "team spirit" of course. Not the ones directly responsible for the dispute, or the decision to escalate it, but the ones who will follow blindly into the belly of the beast. I'm not decrying their ability to do so, nor am I saying that it's a foolish choice: It is, however a choice to kill and/or die.

I'm a great believer in the old platitude that individuals can be creative and brilliant, while groups are more prone to destruction and ignorance. If you put two people in a room without any outside interference, chances are (a majority of times) that they can resolve their issues with one another, or at least find common ground begrudgingly. Change that situation to be two staunch groups of 50 a side. Seal the room.

How much medical aid do you think will be required?

Personal Responsibility really is where I see the issue here. It is too easy (and acceptable) to lay the blame of hardship at the feet of others while turning a blind eye to our own actions to bring on that hardship. 9/11 is a glaring example of this on BOTH sides of the debate.

We have Muslim extremists who perceive the U.S. as a great Satan. They see you as a mass of gluttonous fools bent on bringing downfall to all they are and believe in. The U.S. is often blamed for the strife that Muslim occupied areas of the planet must endure. Consumption of mass resources gives them room to point the finger for their own disparity.

Seldom do these people give much thought to how an antiquated view on human rights and egalitarian society could hold them back from advancing into the progressive planet. Seldom do they look to their own actions in promoting a corrupt and dictatorial leadership. It's easier to blame the faceless Great Satan for the state of the planet and their place in it.

So reactionary tactics are employed. What measure of retaliation for these "sleights" is allowable? What limit will be put on the means to achieve the ends? Those questions were answered (to an extent) one year ago. If owning a percentage of the blame for their lot in life were to have come into play though, how much different could it have been? If these people were more willing to open their eyes and progress, or find other means to achieve their own ascension, then couldn't tragedy be allayed, if not avoided entirely?

But what of "American Innocence" then?

Well that's the kick. The reaction to 9/11 gave an amazing marker to how much American zealots are closely related to their Muslim counterparts.

Terrorist attacks are seen as being externally propogated. A great "Evil Group" out to do harm to western ideals and lifestyles. A faceless mass of degenerate peoples plotting to do harm to innocent Americans.

Jesus...we make movies about it all the time (and by fuck if they don't make wads of money at the box office).

Most people don't take the time to suss out the reasoning behind the attacks. They don't take a moment to own the amount of blame that they are due for putting a corrupt Afghani government in power in the first place. There is a blindspot widened and deepened each time someone tries to remind them of that bit of responsibility, in their actions toward these peoples (and even the friggin' films...I mean c'mon, if you saw a French flick all about evil Americans murdering housewives and babies, wouldn't you be a bit bitter? Even if some incidences had happened like that?).

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people will ditch their own moral structure and sense of right and wrong to join in with the group they call themselves a part of. In disputes involving their governments, intelligent, knowledgeable folks will often disagree with the actions and decisions of their own representatives.

However, escalate that dispute into a war, and a prevailing mindset will be "Well, I didn't agree with what was happening then, but now we're being attacked, and I have to fight for my country!" Do they stop to ask why, other than the stock answer "I need to fight to preserve our way of life, and liberty."? Really? Did you so agree with the way of life as dispensed by your government before? Do you so agree with the reason behind the dispute that you're willing to die...murder...or watch your sons and daughters do so?

Hey, if you can answer yes, then more power to you (but chances are you need a slight psych eval for good measure). I've heard good reasons for fighting a war before...but not often...and hardly any recently.

Okee, this rant is getting farrrr too lengthy, and before I go off on a tangent about zealotry and segregation of thought, I'm gonna wrap it up ;P

In a world that's so connected, globally, as to be interdependent, it still boggles my mind to see how resistant we are to equality and personal responsibility. So set in our ways of tribal supremacy are we that we'll sacrifice our sense of justice to it regularly.

Should we relate to each other's nations as we relate as individuals? It would be nice...but how about we try just relating, knowing we're individuals, and we're connected globally? How about we cherish our differences and realize our similarities?


Now who wants pie?

Peter

Well said DarkGarden. Personal Responsibility. If everyone had some, a lot of problems would not be.
And never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.

Pie sounds nice.

[This message has been edited by docilebob (edited 09-14-2002).]

Oh, I SO didn't write that whole diatribe just to watch it scroll away.


Fuckers.

heh

Yea, some of us do listen.
Where`s my freakin pie ?

Listen schmisten... what a tool.

(actually I'm still digesting a very articulate response)

heehee

It was a great rant.

-tiki, cell 478

Almost worthy of the threads of Olde...almost.

What kind of pie?

Bastards...all of you.

I'm going back to one word posts I swear to a nondescript deity!


Except Bugs...and bob kissing my ass. All the rest of you sod off.


Oh...and no pie.

And it was apple.

Dutch apple.

And goddamned good.

Repent.


[This message has been edited by DarkGarden (edited 09-16-2002).]

That's ok, I already had pie.

Tyrannical bastard.

So, how much more ass kissing do I have to do to get a critique out of ya ?

I`ve got blisters on my lips, now.



<edit> I still want my freakin pie. Tease</edit>




[This message has been edited by docilebob (edited 09-17-2002).]

zovirax can help you live life to the fullest Bob


Jason

All the world's an ass-kissing tournament. And all the people are but lips.

S^abaal ud T'a johtizuc^ ult'a Fedaro.

S^baal is the language of the Federation?

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live