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DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-11-2002 23:15

Yes I remember where I was a year ago, and if you do too, then you'll spend your day any damned way you choose. I invite everyone to do their own part for however they feel.

My way is my business I'm sure, but as I was spending that time, I was delightlessly interrupted mid-thought by an email that managed to make me near choke.

Entitled "Our Country - Don't Like It??? LEAVE!" I was aghast to read the disturbing attempt to justify intolerance and bigotry as "American Rights". I could parody this email and repost for a bit of scathing humour, but I must honestly say that I am so disgusted with this coming to me, especially on a day that is supposedly about coming together, that I can't even joke at this point.

Oh, the kick of it? It's a chain letter it seems, pleading with the reader to "Pass it on if you agree." I'd probably print it out, and burn it myself, but it seems to me that book burnings are about the right speed for the people passing the note itself.

kretsminky
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: A little lower... lower... ahhhhhh, thats the spot
Insane since: Jun 2000

posted posted 09-11-2002 23:32

Maybe it was a last ditch effort by the Native Americans to get us honkies out of here?



InSiDeR
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 09-11-2002 23:34

~checks email~

wtf? don't like it leave?

~waits for page to load~

Nope haven't gotten that email.

If its any consulation to us, could you please post it so we may too elaborate on the ignorant mail you read?


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-11-2002 23:41

~lmfao~

And Matt makes a blistering entry into my "favourite person of the day" list.

No I shant be posting it. Propaganda based on hate just isn't my schtick. I'd be too disturbed that I was recruiting for the wrong team.

~smirk~

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-11-2002 23:45
quote:
If its any consulation to us, could you please post it so we may too elaborate on the ignorant mail you read?



As soon as you explain what the hell that is supposed to mean...for those of us who speak english.

I feel your pain Peter. I spent most of my time hiding today from all the ignorant hopped up assholes at work so bent on 'obliterating the middle-east'.

Some days it's embarassing being human....




InSiDeR
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 00:20

well basically i was asking him to post it so we can hate it too

i guess its ok if you don't post it, but it's kind of hard to agree if we don't read it

could ya go into some detail as to the specifics of what this post covered? just something!

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 00:25

~shakes head in shame~

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 09-12-2002 00:28

I don't think we really need to see this one e-mail. We've seen enough of this crap over the past year to know what it is about.

I just love it when people forget what made America great in the first place...




Cell 270

mobrul
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 01:54

Quote of the day, from John Ashcroft, being interviewed by NPR's Juan Williams (11 Sept 2002):
"...civil liberties are more intact today than they were before 9-11 [2001]..."

InSiDeR
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 02:01

John Ashcroft is the anti-christ i don't believe in. If he get too much power we all die. He's such a bueracrat. He would bring forth the apocolypse.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 02:22

I know people who send me email like that and it really bothers me. Some of it isn't nearly as bad but it still stems from the same root attitude. I used to get pissed off and/or depressed but now I find myself asking what can possibly be done to work against that kind of problem.

. . : slicePuzzle

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 03:35

INSIDER: just try and extrapolate from what has been provided... please.

(someone, please tell me if i'm wrong, but) basically, emails of this sort are saying that american life is far more precious than any other, and that all genuine, patriotic US citizens will support the US 'powers that be' in seeking vengeance for these atrocities.
it then continues to say that this is the american way of life, and if you do not conform to our views, then perhaps you should leave too.
that way, you will no longer be a US citizen, and they can bomb you too.

In Australia, some of the relatives for the (very few) 9-11 victims are begging for restraint.
Are any US families doing the same? If so, is their message being heard in the midst of the current patriotic propaganda?


docilebob
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: buttcrack of the midwest
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 04:11

~shakes head with DL~
As if we needed more evidence of the irreversable depletion of the global gene pool..

reitsma : Not that is allowed to surface through the propaganda layer, as far as I know.

krets : If the Natives run us honkies off , who will support all those Reservation Casinos?

<edit> you mean we`re not better than everybody else ?</edit>





[This message has been edited by docilebob (edited 09-12-2002).]

Raptor
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: AČ, MI, USA
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 05:40
quote:
Some days it's embarassing being human....


Just some days?

It's every day for me.

Edit: ubb code is fun!

[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited 09-12-2002).]

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 07:21

db: at least you're not saying: "what, there's a somebody else? I thought we got rid of them."


Wakkos
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Azylum's Secret Lab
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 08:13

Welcome to the world kids.

Normally this kind of 'feelings' as the letter described by DG are all around the world and spreaded by the different countries' citizens.

Each person defends his own country: bullshit

Once my grandpa told me: patriotism is almost worst than religions, he is right.
There's no easier way to control people that if they beleave in their country or in a religion, is really easy!

I don't like patriotic people, nor here in Spain, nor in Venezuela or even in USA. I don't feel like join myself to one part of this world wide conflict to see who is more powerful or who is trying to make the other less powerful.


Our World - Don't Like It??? LEAVE!

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 08:57

Awww man, Krets, how did you know that? Shoot, that was our last chance....

Dang it.

But seriously...yeah, occassionally, one does wonder if Mankind is really going forward...or just sitting in a big pool of stagnation....

It's our Universe, if you don't like it, transcend to another plane!

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 14:40

I recieved an email very much like that recently, basically telling me that if I didn't like the way America was doing things I could just leave America. I thought 'OK...I'll leave if you want me to, but doesn't that involve me actually having the inclination to go there first?'

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

Veneficuz
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: A graveyard of dreams
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 14:59

As some famous english lord(?) said once "power corrupts, absolute power curropts absolutely". And since the US has power they have been corrupted (at least some of them it seems) into believing that they are better than everybody else.

But it is rather ironical that the "land of freedom" want to kick people with different views out of the country...

_________________________
Anyone who has lost track of time when using a computer knows the propensity to dream, the urge to make dreams come true and the tendency to miss lunch.
- copied from the wall of cell 408 -

Dufty
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Where I'm from isn't where I'm at!
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 09-12-2002 15:01

*Stands in the 'shaking heads' line*

Sheesh - it's bad enough that the shit exists in the first place, never mind regurgitating in in the coridoors and stinking up the place.

I recently heard the following: "Don't confuse patriotism with nationalism" - what more can I say.

Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 15:31

Albert Einstein: "They say further, and truley, that the greatest obsticle to international order is the monstrously exaggerated spirit of nationalism which also goes by the fair-sounding but often misused name of patriotism."

yeah, I heard yesterday that we should turn the whole country [Afghanistan] into a glass parkinglot.... one of the cuter bits of idioticy floating around here..


Code - CGI - links - DHTML - Javascript - Perl - programming - Magic - http://www.twistedport.com
ICQ: 67751342

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 16:24

Venificuz: Its was Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887 according to:
http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/22900.html

I wasn't sure of the source and thought it was from something more famous - interesting.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Genevieve
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 09-12-2002 16:41

While I disagree with any letter saying one way is better than another, if you don't like it get out, I DO think that some of those e-mails that I've gotten (which didn't say "get out" but "I love America" sorta thing) are expressing exactly what I feel. Now don't jump me. I'm just saying that I'm patriotic, though not to the point of agreeing w/ American politicians and their actions just because I'm an American. I don't have a problem w/ patriotism but DG is right. It's disgusting when people get an "I'm better than you are" attitude. Still, I feel like everyone is dissing patriotism. It can be a good thing as long as it isn't BLIND, you know what I mean?

Genevieve<---that's me!!
Wowzers! o.O

Visit my cell! 754

Dufty
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Where I'm from isn't where I'm at!
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 09-12-2002 17:30

"In the kindom of the blind - the one eyed man is king".

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 18:29

Of course, on the flip-side, I'm pretty tired of hearing about this being 'america' that is the big evil power in the world.

Not along ago it was the French. And the English. And befire that Spain. And France and England some more. And before that the Norwegians, and the Germans, and the Chineese, and the Mongols, and the Japanese, and the Romans, and the greeks, and the Egyptians, and the Phoenecians, and the Carthaginians...

It's a *human* problem, not a specific nation.

People suck.



DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 18:52

And nice people swallow.

Look, the fact of the matter is that this post was to address anger, disgust, revile at stupidity, bigotry, arrogance, and the human condition involved to pin it all on a rather disturbing tragedy.

Time will make fools of us all. I'm just amazed at how many people don't wait and do the job themselves.

The fact that the email was American based is incidental. It could have come from anyone...any pathetic nationalist-bigot in any country. Want patriotism? Maybe it's time to start thinking as humans and not sects. Maybe we should be proud to be human first.

Maybe someday we can all understand.

and maybe I need to go butter my toast...

~shrug~

I remember mentioning what word formed from a translation of Nationalist...some cycles are just too sad.

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 18:56

Fanatics Suck!

A line we used to use in high school. Point, holler, and laugh. Ah... the good ol' days.

"You and yours leave me and mine alone."
-Rick Ducommun

George Carlin has a few good lines as well.

tikigod
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: outside Augusta National
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 19:32

The email is a by-product of freedom.

The same rights that allow people to call America Imperialistic allow the other side say: "If you dont like it, Leave it." This doesnt bother me, It proves the system is working.

I'll start to get sad when one side is not allowed to voice its point of view. otherwise thats freedom o' speech, even the moronic and bigoted get a voice.

***tiki looks at the headshakers ***

I disagree with you all. The human race has come a long way. Rome, and more recently The Soviet Union, would have quickly put the peoples of the Middle East to the sword for an act like 9/11. Whether they were involved or not.

-tiki, cell 478

edit-freakin typos

[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 09-12-2002).]

twItch^
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the west wing
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 19:46

So long as you're not surprised, Peter.

s t e p h e n

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-12-2002 20:47

Tiki - nah.

Rome would have quickly put them to the sword....we'll do it sloiwly and only to the ones that make us look good or to those that won't be too overtly noticed.

And then we'll let them put some of us to the sword so that we'll have publicly legitimized reasons to put more of them to the sword.

We have not advanced a single bit. We are simply currently in a mode where we like to hide our violent animalistic tendancies behind politics.

Psychologically speaking, it takes 20,000 years or so for an animal's natural tendancies to change. =)


InSiDeR
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 21:25

My dad was telling me this sometime a year ago.

If there is another attack on the country, no one's going to take it, people will be incredibly pissed and we will bomb the shit out of them.

That seems kind of rational.

I understand that war isn't good. But the truth about the world is that war does solve our problems. We will kill less lives to save more lives.

And yea, people suck. It really is sad once you think about it. People have tendencies to listen to what they say, and never have an independent thought or question authority. But here is where it gets sad. Those people that they are listening too, had an independent thought, and they are speaking it. Human intelligents is the only devil/satan we will ever know.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

tikigod
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: outside Augusta National
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 09-12-2002 23:58

Maybe DL, but the body count would have been a lot higher and the Romans wouldn't have asked other country's opinions, polled their, people or wasted time with trial balloons to figure out which plan people liked.

DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...

From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994

posted posted 09-13-2002 00:29

"In the kindom of the blind - the one eyed man is king"

I seem to remember a story I read once where there actually was a "country of the blind", and a one-eyed man did visit. Oddly enough, they did *not* make him King - instead they hunted him down and plucked out his remaining eye.

Your pal, -doc-

InSiDeR
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Oblivion
Insane since: Sep 2001

posted posted 09-13-2002 01:19

Damn I know that's supposed to mean something, but I just can't get it! Maybe I should turn my music down so I can think...

~turns knob down~

Well I have an idea but I am not sure.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 02:10

Rome ruled with terror and it was extremely good at it. I honestly don't think we are interested in doing that. Even if some of our foreign policies have that effect, I don't believe it is our intention. Therefore, the more the negative effects of our policies are pointed out to the public, the more the calls for them to be modified. If that's sounds too optimistic, then I apologize

. . : slicePuzzle

DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 02:33

Optimism is a wonderful thing: If metered with intelligence and honesty.

Without it's just foolishness.

I think what consistently amazes me is the depths that people will plumb to exhibit their own stupidity. In a world rife with knowledge (almost literally right at one's fingertips) there are scores of fools running around on display. The fact that email like this makes an impact on the net, where people have a wellspring of information, speaks very poorly of the amount that ignorance has been abolished.

Though if online forums (and this thread) prove anything, it's that ignorance will always run as thread through a weave of thought...

It just happens to be a recurring thread ~eyes above~

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 02:41

"in the abundance of water the fool is thirsty"

Disaster_inc
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 09-13-2002 02:53

Ok.......Gotta jump in here.....
\
/
first and foremost.....I am a patriot......served in the Air Force and the Army. Second , and not to get political , I am a stout conservative. It is my stance that if someone punches you in the mouth , you get back up.....dust off.....and kick the snot out of them. If you turn the other cheek.....it will also get a beating. America got punched.......time to get ours. I lost friends on that day , innocents that were just working to provide for their families. It is different for those in the military......we expected to fight.
\
/
as far as the "get out" part......leave them here where we can get them.
\
/
Also.....I am part american indian and damn proud of it........we took our lumps because we believed that men are honorable and their word is their truth......we all know the results of that.
\
/
ALL Islamic peoples are not the problem......only a small fraction......the radicals. True Islam is a docile and understanding religion , and not to be feared or hated.
\
/
On 9-11-01......americans were not called to action.....they stepped foward as volunteers and patriots.
\
/
Sorry for the rant........and never forget those who gave so we can sit here and draw our pictures.



[This message has been edited by Disaster_inc (edited 09-13-2002).]

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 03:24

so.... in your patriotic fight for democracy, you are willing to 'get' all those who do not share the same stance on this matter as you?

ok guys, i'm hopeless at picking true irony, but is anyone else's 'ironometer' going off here?


Disaster_inc
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 09-13-2002 03:32

yep.....send them over. My point is that if we just sit back and take it.....it will go on and on and on. Kinda like the kid that everyone picked on.....till he had enough and stood up for him/her self.

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 03:33

yep.
as soon as the kid brings a semi-automatic to the school, the problem's gone.

Disaster_inc
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 09-13-2002 03:38

never needed a gun at school........from the old school......duke it out. that is what the world leaders need to do......

eyezaer
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: the Psychiatric Ward
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 03:39

democracy = mob rule.

weeee! hang on... what are we talking about?

                                                           

DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 03:58

Yes..let violence lead where diplomacy never can.

Establish one unerring truth : Man will never evolve past their basest instincts.


Yep...I was waiting for the exact sort of scribe of the letter to show up.

Apple...Bunch...


~shakes head~

Disaster_inc
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Aug 2002

posted posted 09-13-2002 04:07

Diplomacy in this case has been tried again and again......with zero as the sum total.......guess we just keep talkin till they have nukes too....then we can play for real.




[This message has been edited by Disaster_inc (edited 09-13-2002).]

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 04:35

Now now, peter, just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean you have to shake his head so vigorously - that could do some permanent damage, you hear?

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 05:25

"Man will never evolve past their basest instincts."

Unless the Nazis had it right, then you have hit the nail on the head, DG. Being "good" cannot be bred into the species, each individual must choose that path. Sad but true.

Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 06:12

doesn't this belong in the philosophy forum?


Code - CGI - links - DHTML - Javascript - Perl - programming - Magic - http://www.twistedport.com
ICQ: 67751342

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 08:06

I think it started out belonging here but it is quickly starting to belong there.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 14:22

Inevitably in a discussion like this, someone will bring up the metaphor of the kid at school being picked on until he stands up for himself.

Well, just one itty bitty flaw in that metaphor - America is *not* a defenseless litle kid getting picked on. America has played it's hand as bully often enough. America is not an innocent bystander whom the terrorsits had no reason to fight.

Diplomacy?

What the fuck kind of diplomacy have we tried?? Threats? War? Economic sacntions that starve the people and don't effect the leaders?

Sure thing D_I, when you've been punched, get up and punch back.

But when you picked the fight, you damn well better expect to get punched.


{{edit - petskull: does it really matter whichi forum this is in? Works as well here as anywhere....}}




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-13-2002).]

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 14:51

Disaster: I must say...I've tried that old thing of 'the kid who was always picked on until he stood up for himself'. I must say (and I'm being diplomatic on this) that that really does not work. I was at one point that kid who was always picked on. I'd had enough one day, and stood up for myself to the bullies. All it meant was that I got hit harder and more often. The best way to defeat a bully is to show them that what they are doing to you does not phase you. They are out to get you, and it is that retaliation reaction they are looking for.

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

Dufty
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Where I'm from isn't where I'm at!
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 09-13-2002 15:10
quote:
ALL Islamic peoples are not the problem......only a small fraction......the radicals.



It does seem a little unneccesary to include the word Islamic in this sentence.
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that we (all of the so called democratic nations) have voted radicals into power. The result of which is a global trend towards bigotry and intolerance.
To top it all off, we allow the media in our respective nations to perpetuate this bigotry under the guise of patriotism.

Time to wake up to ourselves - only then can we expect the rest of the worl to catch up.

<edit>
Skaarjj: I too was a bullied kid - my course of action was to learn to take a punch.
They soon got bored and moved on to a new target - he couldn't take a punch, and I felt guilty.
Seems no mattr what you try, you just can't win.
</edit>

[This message has been edited by Dufty (edited 09-13-2002).]

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-13-2002 17:04

Well, to the 'stand up to the bullies thing'...it worked for me, and always has. Of course, I had to learn how to fight...and when not to fight...much more important as just proving that you won't take something sitting down...the 'bullies' soon found out that I could (and would) beat the living **** out of them...when they were not together. They soon decided to leave me alone, and pick on someone easier...

However, as Dl-44 pointed out, the case here is not the same...the US is the lone 'Super Power'...making it the Supreme Bully on the block. Granted, it isn't always a bully, but most of the time, it is. And many lands see us as one...right or wrong. We 'ignore' UN Charters when it is inconvienent...and refuse to sign treaties when we feel that they are not 'appropriate'. And even treaties that we do sign, aren't always honored. We use a majority of the worlds raw resources, and cry foul when someone attempts to limit that, instead of finding other ways to make us self-sufficient (read - energy).

Now, don't get me wrong, I am against what happened on 9/11. However, it's definetly not a one sided issue that Mr. Bush would like some to believe. One should ask why is America viewed by many in the world as a bully...

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 19:10

The *only* reason we are considered a bully is the fact that we are the lone super power. There is *no* amount of anything nice we could do to change that view. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be nicer. For starters, let's free the Iranians from the mullahs, cancel Hussein, topple Assad, and cut off support for the Saudis, then inact a *massive* Marshallesque plan for the entire region.

moaiz
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Nov 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 19:36

Amen Bugimus, why waste time dumping billions into rebuilding the country with some puppet dictatorship after we move throught it, its not japan and they dont make electronics. Baghdad can be 'New Dallas' and we simply set up a colony in Iraq with a full military presence, a forward base for the region and go from there. America hasnt gone through an imperial phase other than carving out its own borders and Puerto Rico is getting mighty lonely as the only colony of the US. Too bad our flag dosent lend itself to symbolism the way the japanese flag does, we need to make up a nice 'rising sun' type flag while we go secure our resources.



tikigod
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: outside Augusta National
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 09-13-2002 20:26
quote:
Optimism is a wonderful thing: If metered with intelligence and honesty.

Without it's just foolishness.



Yes, but without those same two qualities, pessimism is simply paranoia.

-tiki, cell 478

edit-added quote

[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 09-13-2002).]

DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 20:45

tikigod: I'm not making an argument for pessimism though, as it relies on unknown perceived inevitabilities It's not argument, it's commentary.


And so the thread turns again..like a worm.

"We're not bad, we're misunderstood."
"Every action deserves a response."
"Sometimes blanket hate has reasons."


Sorry, I'm not swallowing. There's a whole lot of "fucked up" going around these days, and yes the U.S. has a lion's share of it at times, but it's hardly exclusive...or justifiable for that matter.

It's funny that the first thing my parents wanted to instill in me wasn't patriotism...it wasn't pride...it wasn't strength...

It was personal responsibility.

You can pick some up at the closest courtesy counter. It'd be a fascinating world if people actually tried that occasionally. Even intellects are idiots when they spend more time obfuscating than owning. Ponderance is a wonderful thing...now whatcha gonna do to change it?

"...and let it begin with me..."

But then...I could always be wrong.


Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 20:50

I'll tell you one of the biggest questions I struggle with on this whole thing and that is, is there and/or should there be any difference between how individuals relate to one another as opposed to nations. Any thoughts on that?

DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-13-2002 22:09

Bugs:

I love that question...honestly

I think that the problem (in many of these similar cases) is that "tribal mentality" often overrides how people view the actions and responsibilities of the groups involved.

Often actions that we would say were barbaric if seen acted out between individuals are excused en masse due to that "team spirit" (yep, I'm reaching there, but it's a more perfect example for today). We don't (as a Western society) endorse the idea of an individual killing another over a dispute, however we will endorse near genocide when the dispute becomes global.

If a person were to threaten you with harm, your course of action might be limited due to legalities, personal morals, comfort levels. Were we to take it to a global scale, it isn't inconceivable to say that deaths would probably result.

And the deaths of whom?

Well the people who are most entrenched in the "team spirit" of course. Not the ones directly responsible for the dispute, or the decision to escalate it, but the ones who will follow blindly into the belly of the beast. I'm not decrying their ability to do so, nor am I saying that it's a foolish choice: It is, however a choice to kill and/or die.

I'm a great believer in the old platitude that individuals can be creative and brilliant, while groups are more prone to destruction and ignorance. If you put two people in a room without any outside interference, chances are (a majority of times) that they can resolve their issues with one another, or at least find common ground begrudgingly. Change that situation to be two staunch groups of 50 a side. Seal the room.

How much medical aid do you think will be required?

Personal Responsibility really is where I see the issue here. It is too easy (and acceptable) to lay the blame of hardship at the feet of others while turning a blind eye to our own actions to bring on that hardship. 9/11 is a glaring example of this on BOTH sides of the debate.

We have Muslim extremists who perceive the U.S. as a great Satan. They see you as a mass of gluttonous fools bent on bringing downfall to all they are and believe in. The U.S. is often blamed for the strife that Muslim occupied areas of the planet must endure. Consumption of mass resources gives them room to point the finger for their own disparity.

Seldom do these people give much thought to how an antiquated view on human rights and egalitarian society could hold them back from advancing into the progressive planet. Seldom do they look to their own actions in promoting a corrupt and dictatorial leadership. It's easier to blame the faceless Great Satan for the state of the planet and their place in it.

So reactionary tactics are employed. What measure of retaliation for these "sleights" is allowable? What limit will be put on the means to achieve the ends? Those questions were answered (to an extent) one year ago. If owning a percentage of the blame for their lot in life were to have come into play though, how much different could it have been? If these people were more willing to open their eyes and progress, or find other means to achieve their own ascension, then couldn't tragedy be allayed, if not avoided entirely?

But what of "American Innocence" then?

Well that's the kick. The reaction to 9/11 gave an amazing marker to how much American zealots are closely related to their Muslim counterparts.

Terrorist attacks are seen as being externally propogated. A great "Evil Group" out to do harm to western ideals and lifestyles. A faceless mass of degenerate peoples plotting to do harm to innocent Americans.

Jesus...we make movies about it all the time (and by fuck if they don't make wads of money at the box office).

Most people don't take the time to suss out the reasoning behind the attacks. They don't take a moment to own the amount of blame that they are due for putting a corrupt Afghani government in power in the first place. There is a blindspot widened and deepened each time someone tries to remind them of that bit of responsibility, in their actions toward these peoples (and even the friggin' films...I mean c'mon, if you saw a French flick all about evil Americans murdering housewives and babies, wouldn't you be a bit bitter? Even if some incidences had happened like that?).

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people will ditch their own moral structure and sense of right and wrong to join in with the group they call themselves a part of. In disputes involving their governments, intelligent, knowledgeable folks will often disagree with the actions and decisions of their own representatives.

However, escalate that dispute into a war, and a prevailing mindset will be "Well, I didn't agree with what was happening then, but now we're being attacked, and I have to fight for my country!" Do they stop to ask why, other than the stock answer "I need to fight to preserve our way of life, and liberty."? Really? Did you so agree with the way of life as dispensed by your government before? Do you so agree with the reason behind the dispute that you're willing to die...murder...or watch your sons and daughters do so?

Hey, if you can answer yes, then more power to you (but chances are you need a slight psych eval for good measure). I've heard good reasons for fighting a war before...but not often...and hardly any recently.

Okee, this rant is getting farrrr too lengthy, and before I go off on a tangent about zealotry and segregation of thought, I'm gonna wrap it up ;P

In a world that's so connected, globally, as to be interdependent, it still boggles my mind to see how resistant we are to equality and personal responsibility. So set in our ways of tribal supremacy are we that we'll sacrifice our sense of justice to it regularly.

Should we relate to each other's nations as we relate as individuals? It would be nice...but how about we try just relating, knowing we're individuals, and we're connected globally? How about we cherish our differences and realize our similarities?


Now who wants pie?

Peter

docilebob
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: buttcrack of the midwest
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-14-2002 05:31

Well said DarkGarden. Personal Responsibility. If everyone had some, a lot of problems would not be.
And never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.

Pie sounds nice.

[This message has been edited by docilebob (edited 09-14-2002).]

DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-16-2002 00:47

Oh, I SO didn't write that whole diatribe just to watch it scroll away.


Fuckers.

heh

docilebob
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: buttcrack of the midwest
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-16-2002 02:01

Yea, some of us do listen.
Where`s my freakin pie ?

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 09-16-2002 04:04

Listen schmisten... what a tool.

(actually I'm still digesting a very articulate response)

tikigod
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: outside Augusta National
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 09-16-2002 04:15

heehee

It was a great rant.

-tiki, cell 478

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 09-16-2002 08:34

Almost worthy of the threads of Olde...almost.

What kind of pie?

DarkGarden
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: in media rea
Insane since: Jul 2000

posted posted 09-16-2002 13:35

Bastards...all of you.

I'm going back to one word posts I swear to a nondescript deity!


Except Bugs...and bob kissing my ass. All the rest of you sod off.


Oh...and no pie.

And it was apple.

Dutch apple.

And goddamned good.

Repent.


[This message has been edited by DarkGarden (edited 09-16-2002).]

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 09-16-2002 15:20

That's ok, I already had pie.

Tyrannical bastard.



docilebob
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: buttcrack of the midwest
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 09-17-2002 04:27

So, how much more ass kissing do I have to do to get a critique out of ya ?

I`ve got blisters on my lips, now.



<edit> I still want my freakin pie. Tease</edit>




[This message has been edited by docilebob (edited 09-17-2002).]

JKMabry
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: out of a sleepy funk
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 09-17-2002 06:29

zovirax can help you live life to the fullest Bob


Jason

Rameses Niblik the Third
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: From:From:
Insane since: Aug 2001

posted posted 09-17-2002 14:51

All the world's an ass-kissing tournament. And all the people are but lips.

S^abaal ud T'a johtizuc^ ult'a Fedaro.

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 09-17-2002 15:30

S^baal is the language of the Federation?

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

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