Topic awaiting preservation: U.S. Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Party (Page 1 of 1)

U.S. Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Party
By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.


About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.


The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack.


Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.


``I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy,'' Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.


``We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available,'' Williams said.


The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.


Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.


``This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?'' said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. ``There was no reason.''


Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party ``and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house.''


In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

05/19/04 14:11

It's good to see our peace keeping mission in Iraq is still under way.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

(Edited by Jestah on 05-19-2004 23:04)

FWIW, Foxnews offers a different scenario for our latest effort at making friends.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

On the flip side - as tragic as this truly is - don't you think it'd be a good idea for Iraqi's to temporarily skip the "shooting guns in celebration" part of weddings????

maybe we really have to get out of Iraq already...

I had the same thought DL, after all, firing weopons in celebration during a time of war is not a good idea. I am sure for those who like to complain about their country and how horrible it is this will be a great opportunity.

As for me, I need a little more input before I draw any conclusions on this one. The propaganda is getting too thick these days...

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-20-2004 01:31)

Why Ruski? If the US Rape Rooms haven't convinced the world that our intentions in Iraq are noble, these actions are sure to convince those on the fence.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

You make it sound like we intentionally go around targetting innocent Iraqi civilians for incineration. I seriously doubt that is part of the mission. If this really was a wedding party, which is still in question, then it was a tragic mistake. These are the types of terrible things that happen during war, all wars. If the only way we could ever fight a war was to do so perfectly, then we would never be able to fight a war. The best we can do is try to minimize our mistakes with better military training, technology, and intelligence.

So at this stage in the game, would you like to see us pull out of Iraq altogether, Jestah?


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If the only way we could ever fight a war was to do so perfectly, then we would never be able to fight a war.

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Sounds like a plan to me =)

Bugimus, this must be one of those situations you desrcibed earlier where everyone thinks we're the asshole but the truth is everyone else is the asshole. After all, all we did was attack a wedding party, killing 40 or so innocent civilians. Personally, I think we should offer your children as a sacrafice to appease the Iraqi people. Thats just my opinion though.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

DL, in a perfect world...

Jestah, I'm just saying that if it was indeed a wedding party then this was a most tragic mistake. I don't believe our forces would intentionally attack a wedding party for no reason. I'm sure you're not suggesting we did it just for the heck of it. If your point is that whenever we mess up, we do damage to the overall mission, then I wholeheartedly agree with you.


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Hey Jestah, I noticed you live on Long Island. How many rapes happen there every year? Now, should all the people of Long Island be considered to be vile assholes because of the actions of those few?

No? Well then lay off your generalizations about the entire US military because of the actions of a few sick fucks.

If you read the article at CNN this incident doesn't seem as clear cut as Jestah would assert it to be.

:::11oh1:::

Bugimus, the point is we seem to be killing an awfully lot of the people we're supposed to be helping. With each kill your response to be the same, so what? It happens. My suggestion of sending your children over there was very really. I think your wife should be beaten and rode around like a horse and your children stripped naked and beaten in front of you. Who knows, maybe the next time we accidently open fire on 45 civilians you'll then have a different response then "these are the types of terrible things that happen during war".

Krets, to the best of my knowledge, no rapists on Long Island is suggesting that it is Long Island policy to rape people. On the other hand there have been many, many people who are coming forward suggesting that it was US policy to rape and torture these people. If you have any evidence to suggest that it is Long Island policy to rape people and not just the actions of a few people by all means post it. I notice you didn't do so above. Maybe you'll do so now.

And for what its worth, I didn't assert anything. I posted a CNN article and a FOXNews article on the events.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

The chip on your shoulder is starting to crowd the room here Jestah.

Could you put it away for a while maybe?

What are you talking about Jestah? I haven't seen any evidence that it is the policy of the US military to rape and torture POWs. I've seen testimony that soldiers at Abu Gharib were told by their superiors to do so but I hardly think that points to any kind of policy. I think it points to the fact that there were some sick individuals there that clearly abused their positions of power and violated every treaty imaginable.

I think you're letting your emotions get just a tick out of hand here. Your reply to Bugs was repugnant and you should be embarassed for ever typing something like that.

:::11oh1:::

Why would I feel embarassed for asking someone to try and relate to how others feel? With the many threads we've had on this topic, I can't recall one where Bugimus had an opinion other then "its a part of war". I've asked him many times how he would feel if it were his wife or children being molested or murdered but he's yet to answer. Whenever I read these stories in the newspapers and then listen to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bugimus, and Ramasax state that its not a big deal and it happens everyday, I wonder how they would feel if these "minor" incidents happened to their families.

Personally, I feel putting yourself in anothers shoes is a very good way of making a decision. I think there are two many Ann Coulters in the world who feel those in Iraq aren't human.

I was reading an article in todays Chicago Tribune where a solider has confessed in order to interrogate a detainee, they took his son (it didn't say how), stripped him naked, beat him, and thew him in the mud - all in front of the father. I'm not a parent Krets but if someone ever did that to one of my little sisters, I'd murder them and their entire families.

Of course according to you its embarassing to attempt to get someone to put themselves in another shoes.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

quote:

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I think your wife should be beaten and rode around like a horse and your children stripped naked and beaten in front of you.

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Read it for what it says. Not one word of apology or regret after this? I weep for you, Jestah. I really do.

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How about some good news for a change? It's out there, you just have to look.

Good news from Iraq: A rundown of improvements

Please read this.

I think it just goes without saying that there are many in the mainstream media, and in the country abroad who would actually like to see us fail in Iraq, whether to have more ammo against Bush or to make their country look bad or whatever matters not to me. I am getting quite tired of it either way. Sure, freedom of speech and press is great, but with that freedom comes a little responsibility. Sure, cover all the shitty stuff, but give the people the entire picture by talking once in a while of all the good that has happened as well. If this were not an election year or we had a democratic president, I believe it would be covered. As it stands, it is an election year and the democrats and their followers in the media elite are very eager to get into power and will do and say anything, even make a mockery of their own country to reach this goal.

We all know this kind of shit happens in a war, IIRC, the same thing happened in Afghanistan. Do not totally discredit US officials who claim that they found a large sum of money ($2million US), Syrian passports, and satellite communication equipment at the site of this supposed wedding. How many weddings have you been to in the 3rd world which have advanced satellite equipment? You seem more willing to accept the claims of the enemy on heresay than the claims of your own country. In any case, again, firing your weapons into the air at 3am in a war zone is not a great idea. Wake up Jestah, your country is not the Fascist Hitler-like system which you desperately want to believe.

First you tell me you would like for me to be "raped in the ass," I thought that was kind of funny. It bothers me a lot when you tell a man you think his "wife should be beaten and rode around like a horse and your children stripped naked and beaten in front of you." That is just plain fucked man, and I have lost any respect whatsoever that I had for you.

Ramasax

Bugimus, why won't you just answer the question? You shouldn't be having this much difficulty answering how you would feel if your wife were treated the way US soliders treated innocent detainees. Are you honestly so cold-harded you wouldn't care?

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Apologize to me for saying:

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I think your wife should be beaten and rode around like a horse and your children stripped naked and beaten in front of you.

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You made no qualifications on this statement. Read what you said and apologize to me for saying it.

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I don't think anybody here said they did not care about the Iraqi people. I think for the most part, everyone is in agreement that the prison abuse crud is nasty business.

I have plenty of empathy for the Iraqis, and had a whole lot more when they were living under a dictatorship and were being murdered and raped on a much larger scale, all while the mighty UN and the world community ignored it. And then the Oil-for-Food scandal comes out and it is suddenly clear to me why. Money and corruption at the UN. Of course, this was swiftly swept under the rug since it was released shortly before the whole Prison Abuse thing, how convenient.

You are NOT seeing the big picture. So we have a few bad apples and the possibility of a few higher ups (on heresay from people who might actually lie to get reduced punishment) in the military. And while they are not being beheaded like you and some Iraqis probably hoped for, they are being punished for their actions. That is a far cry from Saddam's regime.

As for this supposed wedding party interruption, it will be investigated I am sure. That is, whether you like it or not, how it works in a democracy. We investigate, we do not automatically condemn, again, that would be in the realm of their former leader.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-20-2004 20:49)

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-20-2004 20:51)

quote:

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You made no qualifications on this statement. Read what you said and apologize to me for saying it.

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Bugimus, if you want to take my statement out of its context and act offended thats a personal decision. Don't think I'm going to apologize for your nonsense. Why don't you grow up and acknowledge the fact that I didn't meant I wanted your family in harms way but rather I've been asking you for days now how you'd feel if it were your family involved?

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Speaking of "growing up" Jestah - you should give that a shot. Your antagonistic bullshit may work wonders for you in school, but it simply doesn't play out in the real world.

No matter what context you put it into, your statement is absurdly offensive.

they're like little sponges at this age

I'm sure it's more offensive to the families that it actually happens to.
Rhetoric in an attempt to get someone to think about being in someone else's shoes is all.

Just one more attack by the American government on marriages that aren't between a Christian man and a Christian woman. <shrug> I'll be surprised later, I'm sure.

the minutiae returns...

WJ - there's a difference between comparing someone's situation to your own and making an analogy, and saying "your wife should...." or "your children shoud..."

Especially when the situation at hand is something that none of the major media outlets can even begin to agree on in the first place.

Stephen - amusing, but the government has long upheld a wide variety of non-christian marriages.

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DL-44 said:
.Stephen - amusing, but the government has long upheld a wide variety of non-christian marriages.

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Well, yes, but being amusing is my only goal left.

Yes, DL, there is a difference. But it is still rhetoric. First taken out of context and now arguing an "A point".

I'm sure he could have chosen a better way of putting of putting it after stepping back for a bit, but his "walk in another man's shoes" still stands.

Stating a fact that tragic mistakes have always been made during war time in no way speaks to whether or not the person stating that fact cares one way or the other about the loss of human life.

There are better ways of asking a person with whom you disagree to "walk in another man's shoes" as you point out, WJ. Do you think? One way that I might suggest IS TO ACTUALLY ASK ME THAT QUESTION.

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Why would I feel embarassed for asking someone to try and relate to how others feel?

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Jestah, you didn't ask me that at all. WORDS MEAN SOMETHING. When you type what you typed, you didn't say "how would you feel if...", you said "I think your wife should..." Don't you see why that was wrong? If you want to know my feelings then you have only to ask. Why is that so hard? You actually said that "My suggestion of sending your children over there was very really." You even went out of your way to state you weren't speaking hypothetically but that you really wanted it to happen. It's just wrong to do that and I'm past caring about an apology and onto pondering who is the one who is actually cold hearted.

quote:

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With the many threads we've had on this topic, I can't recall one where Bugimus had an opinion other then "its a part of war". I've asked him many times how he would feel if it were his wife or children being molested or murdered but he's yet to answer.

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It *is* part of war. That's a fact. And, Jestah, you have not asked me that question. I guess you actually believe that what you said qualifies as asking me that question but it just doesn't. Why can't you treat me with some common courtesy? Are you incapable of being friendly with me because I don't agree with you? Is that the problem?

Let me see if I can explain my position to you so that perhaps you can understand. I have very strong beliefs about how this world works. I strive daily to live by what I believe to be right. I didn't just become a vegetarian one day for the hell of it. I thought about it for years and my conscience and my study of the bible finally convinced me it was the "right" decision for me to take.

I rarely discuss abortion in this forum because I cannot remain objective on that topic. I abhor the taking of innocent human life. I lament the fact that it is necessary to kill those who refuse to negotiate difference and would rather kill or be killed to get their way. You may be shocked to know that I have asked myself how I would treat Bin Laden himself if I were to ever have that opportunity. If it were on the battlefield, I would do my duty. If it were to guard him in a prison, I would treat him with all the rights afforded to prisoners under the guidelines given by civilized societies.

You don't even know if that was a wedding party that was bombed yet you are so rabidly wanting that to be true so you can make your political points. But let's say it turns out that it was a wedding party, then I have ALREADY told you that IT WILL HAVE BEEN A TRAGIC MISTAKE. By saying that it should have been clear that I would mourn that event. In so many of our past conversations, I have stated that I do not take the loss of life, even that of our enemies lightly.

I think it is time you stop projecting all your hang ups with the right wingers out there onto me. And it is time for you to start reading the words I type onto this forum. If you have a problem with Dubya, Rush, Coulter, etc. then say so and say so with vigor. But before you assume anything about me especially about how I regard the loss of life, you would do well to read what I say using a dictionary if you must and have a conversation with me and you will find I will be honest and open with you every time.

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Yes, he could have put it better. Where I come from, it is called mouth responsibility and is important.

And still the point remains unaddressed, apparently because of how it was presented and lack of a question mark.

There are casualities of war and you accept it.
When the casualities include you and yours, you are just as accepting.

What remains unaddressed? Are you saying I didn't answer the implied question? Your last two sentences are kind of close to my answer but they seem to contradict the point not being addressed.

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very well stated Bugimus...
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heh, it seems politics are becoming like religion hehe
people go apeshit if they hear you are this or that...like "Holy SHIT! I cannot believe he supports (coservative party / liberal party!!)"

c'mon folks...lets take it easy..

A question is implied and you provide an implied answer. Yet you cry foul with explicitness. That is, you implied an answer to an implied question, yet refuse to give an explicit answer to same implied question due to lack of a question mark, phraseology, or whatever. Completely silly.

My last two sentances is just me putting your implied answer in explicit form.
Your last post, Bugs, seems to give it a nice touch of irony.

I agree that Jestah could use some polish, but he isn't the only one - inlcuding myself at times, quite possibly right now considering the round-about, almost trollish manner I used in making my point.

(Edited by warjournal on 05-21-2004 19:19)

WJ, I don't know how much you have read the exchanges that Jestah and I have had over the last couple of years. There is a lot of history to how that usually goes and much of my handling of this thread has a lot of carry-over from that. I admit that in this thread I decided to try a different tactic and it seems to have been a complete waste of my time.

But onto the actual point being discussed once again.

quote:

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There are casualities of war and you accept it.
When the casualities include you and yours, you are just as accepting.

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Saying I accept it doesn't speak to how I *feel* about it. If I decide that a war should be fought, then I accept the fact that these types of things will happen but I hate the fact that they do, I regard them as necessary. I would never agree to fight a war unless I thought it was the right thing to do.

If my family was a casualty of a war that should be fought then I would accept it as a necessary but extremely painful reality. If my family were a casualty of a war that was not necessary, I would be livid as I am sure many are who have lost their loved ones in Iraq.

But since we are talking about "walking in another's shoes", if my family were a casualty of a brutal regime that was funded by an international organization how do you think I would feel? If I cried out to someone in the so-called free world for help and Jestah ignored me, how do you think I would feel? What if I were an Assyrian Christian living in Iraq that had my family and my entire culture persecuted for decades and wondered why people on the other side of the world who preach freedom and democracy ignored my plight? This works both ways you know. People died as a result of us taking down Hussein, and people died while people like Jestah sat and watched.

There are no easy answers to this and I gave up believing there were any years ago. I think Jestah is still looking and in a way, I do understand. I need to take a step back and realize that when I was his age, I was still looking too and I may have even said something as repulsive as he did in this post. But I have thought about that before and at the time I said such a thing, I would have preferred to have someone there to have called me on it and rebuked me for saying it. As I recall, I didn't have that benefit at the time.

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I think there is a vital piece missing from this puzzle.

Bugs, you draw to point that people have died as a direct result of the US doing anything in Iraq. In turn, you make note that people have died as a result of the US not doing anything in Iraq.

Jestah, however, I think is coming from a perspective that I happen to share: is killing at all necessary. Me, I say no. Unfortunately, so long as there is reason to want power, people will want it, and so long as there are other people wanting that same power, people will die.

It's a condition of humanity. And it's no more disgusting than anything else we do.

I understand that point of view, twItch^. I personally don't agree with that approach because I believe that killing oppressors is sometimes justified in order to stop them from killing the oppressed. In other words, I place a higher value on the lives of the innocent than I do the guilty, while at the same time lamenting even the loss of the guilty.

[edit]
Upon further reflection, I believe in sins of comission AND sins of omission. You are quite correct in pointing out that Jestah's position and yours refrains from actively killing others. My perspective sees not helping others as a problem too.
[/edit]

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(Edited by Bugimus on 05-21-2004 21:19)