Topic awaiting preservation: %$#@ing Up (Page 1 of 2)

Now the popular belief on the Apocalypse is that the world has fucked up and will soon end because of that. I say screw that. The world isn't fucked up, this implies that the world has reached it's peak fuckedness and is on the way back down the scale. Correct me if I am wrong but the world could most likely, 99.99% of the time be even more fucked up. I say that the Apocalypse has already come and gone at least once. LOOK AT THE DINOSAURS don't see many of them runnin around too often do ya? (without the help of hallucinogenic drugs). I say the world is still going up the scale on our little roller coaster ride, that it hasn't hit the critical and/or the red zone. That we haven't fucked up enough for God to say "Oops they screwed up again. Time to start over." The only reason people didn't notice the Apocalypse was that God didn't use some climactic bang. He did give Lucifer a few bucks under the table to rain hellfire down on the earth and choke everything with fire and brimstone. He killed off everything save a few choice creatures, which then evovled (don't start) and became society today, which will eventually fuck up and the process will cycle on and on and on until a god that says "I'm too lazy. I dont wanna make another world it only get destroyed" comes along. THat's right folks I said it. ANOTHER GOD. If you destroy all believers of a god. (like in an apocalypse) then that god DISSAPEARS (effectively dieing). Then once another civilization comes along (unless by some strange coincidence or circumstance they believe in the same god) a NEW GOD appears.

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

I find it easier being an atheist.

But I do read the Rapture Ready forum every now and then, just in case

Amerasu |

Now I must say that this part (of the above rambling that I can't really make heads or tails out of)

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If you destroy all believers of a god. (like in an apocalypse) then that god DISSAPEARS (effectively dieing). Then once another civilization comes along (unless by some strange coincidence or circumstance they believe in the same god) a NEW GOD appears.

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has an intersting ring to me.

Take this one step further and the statement becomes "There is a god, for as long as someone believs in god."
Take that one a bit further and god cannot be immortal, and if god isn't immortal, how can we be promised immortality after death (what a contradiction...).
Ergo, there is no god except in our own mind.

Interesting view
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

Saying that humans invented God in their minds is simply another way of saying God does not really exist. What is the point of even discussing God if one really beleives that is the case.

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Dms: Don't tell me you really thought there is a god outside of our mind.
One thing I'd like to make sure, though I'm almost sure of the answer, is if there is any sign of spiritual beliefs among the other social animal species.

Bugimus: The point is to express and compare different visions of spiritual beliefs.



(Edited by poi on 10-14-2004 21:38)

Correct me if I'm wrong in reading the original post but doesn't it say that believers in a god determine whether the god exists? Is it wrong for me to assume that means the said god doesn't really exist but is just a fiction imagined in the minds of humans? Or was I to take from it that a god *actually* comes into being when a human believes in it?

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poi & bugs
I have been raised very open minded with my fathers side of the family as regular-everyday-no-fuzz-made-of-it "Well of course I believe, doesn't everybody?" view of god.

My mothers side on the other hand was the all out acting church family where my grandfather was a priest, my grandmother a nurse for the church, one uncle in priest school and so on. All this without imposing their vies/beliefs on anyone at all. It was their way of life and everyone was welcome to join in as they pleased. My grandfather was actually one of the most openminded persons I have ever met and I doubt I will ever met such a person again.

I've gone to church regularly during my youth and said grace for dinner when I was with them and not when at home or at my fathers parents while growing up. I never found this strange, it was just different customs in different families for me.

So "active" religion has been just as much a part of my upbringing as non-active religion.

All this has left me very neutral to the concept of god and religion.
I've read the bible cover to cover in order to make up my own mind but I can't really say it helped much.

Howver, that cannot exclude me from expressing how I feel, what I feel is interesting or not. A discussion revolving around god will never be a discussion if only believers attend, nor will it be a discussion with only non-believers...

I fully respect other peoples views on god/no god and so on, it's not my role to tell some one else what to believe, nor is it anyone elses role to tell me what to believe.

Basically I think that's the part that I've got the most trouble with when it comes to different practicing religions, they keep telling me that their view on things is the only correct one...

Personally I think that the basic message in the bible (and any other form of scripture I've read as well actually) is very good in it's core.
To me it's about respecting and helping each other in order to minimize the effects of suffering and tragedy in the world.

The only problem is that it does not work in reality, at least not on a large scale. Why? Well the problem is that people everywhere apply their own mindset when interpreting the scriptures, then pride and hierarchy comes into the picture and the arguing over whos interpretation is correct starts.

On a local level that's ok, country to country, or faith to faith, then we have wars...

Then the horror of wars makes people look for someone or something to blame and our pride makes it easier to blame "the other guys" religion/faith than to admit that we are to darn stubborn and proud to say "we did wrong". With that view it's so easy to also turn to the belief of another existence in order to find guidance.

Like it or not, humans in general seems to really need something to believe in. If it's not god, allah or some other name for it, it seems to be to believe that there is no god.

This is a basic pattern that is very visible everywhere, in all countries and societies, take politics, the corporate business, the neighbours in the suburbs, the sports, the stockmarket... The very same centering on "What I believe is more right than what you believe" is present everywhere.

Me? I honestly don't know.
Somewhere deep inside I'd like to believe that there is something more to it that life as we know it. But I honestly don't know if that's just a product from the fear of the knowledge that I just might wink out into nothing like a blown out match at one point in time. The prospect of some form of afterlife seems more appealing than a simple "the end".

I guess I belive more in some sort of spiritual afterlife than in humanitys capability of handling religion...
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

(Edited by DmS on 10-15-2004 09:55)

Thanks very much for that, Dan. I agree 100% with you that every individual must make up his or her own mind on the subject of religion. What I like about this forum is that people seem to be very honest and open to discussing it. When I challenge things that people say here, most of the time it is intended to stimulate thought and hopefully that helps us all to see how different ideas stack up.

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(unless by some strange coincidence or circumstance they believe in the same god)

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aha!
i suppose that would probably take an act of God

Dms, that was a great post. (Sorry, but I have been studying rhetoric and speeches, and that used an awful lot of good stuff.)

You also made a good point about choice. I agree whole heartedly that everyone has a choice to believe what they want. I do think that what I say is right, but that doesn't mean that I should make others believe what I believe.

I think that having an open mind is good, but you have to be careful at the same time. Open minds allow you to see other sides of arguments, other points of veiw, and respond adequately to them. An open mind allows thought processes to work and good conclusions to be come to, but it shouldn't be completely open. Mind sets need to have a foundation. There was a popular country song (don't say it) a little while ago that said," You got to stand for somethin' or you'll fall for anything." That statement is the main reason why you have to be careful with an open mind. Unless you have a firm belief, you will just sway with every new idea that comes before you.

Okay Sangreal, you knew I would find this post sooner or later didn't you? Well, here is my speil:

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Sangreal said:

The world isn't fucked up

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On the contrary, it is in deep trouble. Mainly, it starts with Adam. Adam screwed us all over when he disobeyed God, and thus bringing sin into the world, and thus making us all pay for it.

And for those who do not believe in the literal Genesis:
Just take a look around you. You don't really have to go much further than Asylum to see some issues about what goes wrong in the world. It could be worse, we could all be having sex with are siblings, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultry, and etc. But we are pretty close.

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Sangreal said:

I say that the Apocalypse has already come and gone at least once

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You are half right, God did send a massive flood to the Earth to kill all the sinful men before, but He promised not to do that again. The next apocolypse, to my understanding, is going to be Him withdrawing His hand more, then allowing Lucifer total rein of the Earth, then allowing His angels to inflict some nasty punishments on the Earth. It is needless to say that that won't be a fun time for any one left behind.

You know I have heard of your God theory before, and I think it was posted on another thread am I right? Well, I guess you can look at it that way if you want. I see it that there is one God, but everyone sees Him through different lights. Some, like the Greeks, saw His many aspects and abilities as different gods instead of one God. Some, like the Native Americans, saw that there was a spiritual world, but they didn't know all that it entailed. Still others, like the Jews, saw that there was one God, and all that He entailed.

The thing about all the believers dieing and the god they believed in died as well may not be that the god died, but just that veiw of God died. Maybe? Like with Aztecs, when they nearly all were destroyed or converted to Catholicism, their gods died as well, but the descendeants still believe in a God. Maybe the veiw of God comes to people through nature, and they don't know the whole story, but they try to explain it by "making" these other gods? Would you care to comment on that?

(One little side note, why are you bashing Revelations? (at least that is what it looks like) I thought that was your favorite book.)

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon, thanx
I've been teaching quite a bit, both in written form and up close and personal, so I've had some classes in rethorics as well.

Now, good point on having an open mind

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Unless you have a firm belief, you will just sway with every new idea that comes before you.

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There is a difference between being fully open minded and being unable to make choices based on input and to stand firm once a desicion is made (within reason of course, otherwise it's just being blind to facts).

To keep an open mind in full is in my view an absolute nessecity in order to be able to make informed desicions. If one finds it very hard to make a desicion and stick to it with in reason, then he/she will have trouble, true.
However, do remember that while a solid tree can break in a storm, a flexible grass will bend rather than break.

What I have is a firm belief that what goes around comes around.
I don't have to have a firm belief in a religious sense in order to see that if I treat people around me like dirt, they will sooner or later do the same to me.
I'm well aware that this can be found in the bible within the tern commandments, but that's not really important to me.

The simple fact that this simple phrase: "Treat others the way you want them to treat you", if applied by everyone, on their fellow man, the animals, our enviroment... there would be no war, no abusive treatment of animals, minimal pollution and so on.

Just think about it...
In an ideal world, that's all that needs to be followed and then it's not really important where it came from, right? In fact, you would not even need the ten commandments... Right?
After all I can't find any commandment that wouldn't be cofered by that phrase, well ok, perhaps the part about not having any other gods but me, but since I don't have a traditional religious belief I tend to overlook that

Cheers/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

Yes, that is the second most important commandment, Dan. I agree with you that the world would be a drastically better place if every human adhered to it. I do think it is dependent on the greatest commandment though, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

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(Edited by Bugimus on 10-18-2004 03:37)

Ok, now that I've finally gotten into the religion discussion

I've got a serious question for you believers:

If you don't go to church, don't pray and don't really believe in god as described in the scriptures.
BUT you try to live your life in a way that offers support and help to others and treat all humans as of equal value.

If there is a god, will you be rewarded in the same way as person B who tells the world he is a believer and does all the right things in perfect accordance to the written word?

What I'm after is really what count's the most in the eyes of religion, is it to (in lack of a better word) confess yourself fully to the faith, or to live as you feel is in accordance with the intention of the faith without being a believer?

/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

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DmS said:

However, do remember that while a solid tree can break in a storm, a flexible
grass will bend rather than break.

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(nice analogy btw) Yup, that about sums up what an open mind does for you. It can also be taken that while the supple blade of grass doesn't get knocked down in the storm, the tree doesn't get chopped down by a lawn mower (he he, I like these deep phylosophical one liners ).

Ah yes, the Golden Rule: "Do unto others what you would want others o do unto you." I like this rule, but it is also hard to follow. I remember a SS class about this a while ago, about the importance of the word would. The reason is that people may or may not do good back to you, but you try any way for Jesus (at least that is how the SS lesson went). You can also say that you do it to remain noble, honorable, etc. And yes, that would work if everyone would follow that rule. The only problem is convincing people to do that...

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Bugimus said:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and with all
your soul and with
all your mind."

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And Dan, I will answer your Question when I have more time.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Okay, I can't offer an answer for all faiths because they are all different. As for Christianity, it is uniqueish. I say ish because I don't know if there is some other religion out there that is like it or not, but none of the major religions are.

In Christianity everything is upside-down to our thinking. You and I might say: "A person who is charitable (but had to lie to keep his wife happy with him) goes to Heaven, and a person who has murdered goes to Hell." The thing with Christianity is that The murder could go to Heaven while the charitable person goes to Hell. Kinda wierd huh? Well, there is a reason behind this. It is because God is perfect. He HATES sin. And you know what? Both of those people sinned. One murdered, and the other lied. They both have sin and both deserve to die.

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Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

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But, there is hope for both men. You see, everyone deserves to go to Hell by God's standards, and that is the end, period, no exceptions.

More to come since time is gone for this post...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Dan, I believe Gideon is pretty much making the case. But let me chime in all short and sweet.

There is no other way to Heaven but through faith in Jesus Christ, period. I hope that answers what you were looking for and I'm dying to know what the follow up may be

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Cool, good answers so far
I do suspect I know what's coming next but I had to get this in...

Bugs.

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There is no other way to Heaven but through faith in Jesus Christ, period.

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In other words an infant that cannot read, think or in other ways make a desicion or hold faith cannot go to heaven...

Supposed answer: If the infant is baptized he can.
Answer to supposed answer: In that case the infant does not believe, we do that for him, how can he go to heaven, he still doesn't hold the faith...

/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

i'll pop in here and mention that a familiarly held concept is there being an "age of accountability". in other words, until you can fully grasp the concept you're not held responsible for not being able to make that choice.

and dan, baptism in most non-catholic denominations is a choice made later on by the individual. in my church and many others we do what are called "dedications" where an infant/toddler is prayed for and blessed, but baptism is a decision made by that child later on as a teenager or whatever. this would seem to line up more with the biblical concepts of making a decision to follow christ and then being baptized.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

(Edited by Fig on 10-18-2004 18:07)

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In other words an infant that cannot read, think or in other ways make a desicion or hold faith cannot go to heaven...

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It would seem that Fig and I agree on the "age of accountability" answer for this one. This is the age that every individual reaches when they can make the decision for themselves. Obviously the age differs per individual.

The flip side of that belief is what then happens to babies that die before reaching the age of accountability. My congregation, and I assume Fig's as well, cites this verse:

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Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.
But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

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Those who have committed no sin cannot be held responsible for something they never did.

Even though infant baptism has been practised for centuries, including by most Protestants until only recently, I cannot see any biblical justification for it. One of the prerequisites for baptism is belief and babies are unable to do that. The defense goes that the faith of the church is substituted for the child until confirmation but again I see no scriptural basis for anyone being covered by another's faith.

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Cool, I'll buy that answer since it rhymes wery well with my personal beliefs.

And this...

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baptism in most non-catholic denominations is a choice made later on by the individual. in my church and many others we do what are called "dedications" where an infant/toddler is prayed for and blessed, but baptism is a decision made by that child later on as a teenager or whatever. this would seem to line up more with the biblical concepts of making a decision to follow christ and then being baptized.

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Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Here in sweden you are by default baptized if you choose to give your child a name in church, this usually happens when the child is 1-3 months old. And what really bugs me is that everybody does it because it's a nice tradition... Then they follow it with sending their 14 year old kids to confirmation camp becasuse that's something "everyone does"... "They" in this case is the absolute majority of the swedes.

The same goes for weddings.

I mean come on!
I don't care if they believe or not but people MUST respect what it's all about!
In my family we have chosen not to give our children names in church since we firmly believe that this is one type of committment that only a person can do for himself. When our 7 year old starts asking us about god, death, heaven and so on we try to explain it neutrally and help him find more info if he wants to.

/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

Gideon I am in no way saying there is nothing wrong with the world i am merely saying that when somebody says this thing is fucked up it means that it is fucked up and is on it's way to being fixed. If something is fucking up then it has yet to be as fucked as possible. So I am stating that the world can be a LOT more fucked up and when it finally gets comletely fucked up God will hit the restart button. The second part of the thread merely states two things:
1. As long as human(s) believe they need God(s), God(s) will exist.
2.This is best if explained in example:
If there are only three apples left in the world and Bugimus, DMS and I are holding them and then Gideon comes along and eats the apples and then shoots us how many apples exist? Zero, Gideon ate them all. Therefore if there are only three Buddhists in the world and I come along and set them on fire and they Die. How many Buddhists exist? Zero, I burnt them to death. So if nobody believes or knows about Buddha (who wasn't supposed to be a god in the first place) how many Buddhas exist?

History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

Sangreal,

What if God is not an apple though? What if God exists *independent* from this world? That is where I was getting confused earlier. Are you saying it is a forgone conclusion for you that God doesn't actually exist?

DmS,

That's very interesting. I think it sucks when people just do things without knowing why, but I'm afraid it's deeply rooted in our nature to do so. Do you attend any church? I'm just curious now that I'm learning more about your views.

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This is starting to be fun

Sangreal.
My view: the world is not at fault here, humans and their constant bickering and tendencies to blow things out of proportion for their own benefit is the problem.
With that in mind, yes, parts of this world is seriously f***ed up.

- Can it get worse?
Yes, of course it can, "There is no end to the possibillities..."

- Will god pull the plug?
I don't know, but I'm more inclined to think that humans will eradicate themselves.

- Is god dead if no one is left to believe in him?
If there is a god, I'd have to say no.
According to the bible he created the world and then added life to it, to do that he must be able to exist without anyone believing in him...

Bugimus.
No, I don't attend any church.
I know a fair bit about it which should be evident from the posts in this thread, but while I feel that it is a generally good thought behind it and that most of it is well meant, I cannot say that I ever believed in, or worshipped god & Jesus, salvation and so on as described in the bible.

However, I try to live my life in such a way that the good I do outweigh the bad, this since I firmly believe that it should be the persons actions that count before his words.
In general, Religion & church to me is more often on the "words" side than on the "actions". Especially here in sweden where the church way too often actually discriminates people based on gender and other similar things.

This said, I respect and from time to time defend other peoples views on god/religion, not based on agreeing or not, but because they have every right to their opinion & belief as I do to mine.
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

(Edited by DmS on 10-19-2004 09:56)

First off, I would like to say that I wouldn't shoot anyone for their apples.
Second, God does exist outside of our world, outside of time even:
"In the Beginning God" pretty much sums that up nicely.

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DmS said:

- Will god pull the plug?
I don't know, but I'm more inclined to think that
humans will eradicate themselves.

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Heh, yeah, the way things are going we might beat God to the punch.

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DmS said:

I try to live my life in such a way that the good I do outweigh the bad

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That is a good philosophy to have. If everyone followed the Golden Rule, then the world might not be as %$#@ed up as it is now.

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DmS said:

I firmly believe that it should be the persons actions that count before his
words.

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That is a good way to look at it. I like to say that "actions speak louder than words." The only problem is that with God, one sin, even the tinyest sin, is so large, that it over shadows all acts of goodness and kindness. According to God, all men are evil. All men (this includes women too) have sinned and fallen short of going into Heaven. "The wages of sin is death," and that is all that we get. The only way for anyone to enter Heaven is if that person is sinnless. In the OT the only way to become sinnless was to sacrifice an animal, so that the animal would take your place of death. It wasn't because God likes animals sacrificed, but it was the act of giving up something so dear to you, of sacrificing a living breathing creature so that you could live. That is what it was about.

Then, Jesus came. He died on the cross so that all men could live. He was the ultimate sacrifice. He was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. That is why He is refered to as "the Lamb." He took all your sin, and all my sin and pinned it up on the cross. The ONLY way into Heaven is to accept that gift of purity from Him. That is it. He said,"I am the way and the truth and the life, noone gets to the Father but through me." That was it. No ifs, ands, or buts. He is and was the only way. Good works come later, but salvaiton is only through the love of Jesus Christ.

One last thing:

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DmS said:

they have every right to their opinion & belief as I do to mine.

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That is absolutely correct. Everyone has a different opinion. Sometimes I see that as a good thing and a bad, but everyone is entitled to one. SO, I agree with that 100%.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Let's kick this up a notch.

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I try to live my life in such a way that the good I do outweigh the bad

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Of course this is preferable to the alternative and it pleases me you live your life that way.

But what is that approach supposed to be in aid of? Why do good instead of bad in the first place? DmS, do you believe there is any ultimate purpose or meaning to life?

Let's assume there is no God for a moment since you say you don't currently have faith in one. What would be the difference between living your life like a saint compared to living your life as a horrible criminal? Would it make any difference ultimately?

Bertrand Russell, a famous thinker who was not a believer in God, said this:

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Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.

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Bugimus.
That's not a nice question you are pinning me to the wall here...
Note this:

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I cannot say that I ever believed in, or worshipped god & Jesus, salvation and so on as described in the bible.

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This does not rule out an afterlife of some sort that depends on the actions and choices we take in this life.

But it's an interesting and quite fundamental question "Why do we do A instead of B".
A very large part of it is probably social training which in turn comes mainly from
ethics which basically is a set of commonly defined rules (note, not written laws) for a society.
Most people will say that this is based soley on the religions values and rules. While that surely infuences a societys ethics, that part is actually the ethos of religion.

This is in no way a clear answer to why I choose to try to be good instead of evil, the closest I can get to an answer today is part that I follow the ethics of the society I live in, part that I feel good inside when making someone happy, and part that I believe that every action has a reaction. Not to the extreme measure as the chasos theory, but on an everyday level.

As for the purpose of life... why 42 of course
Seriously, while I might feel things inside that points in that direction, if I could answer that coherently, I'd probably be the writer of the most read book/article in the world

Let's put it simple, I believe there is a purpose to this life we live, but I cannot personally agree with the quote you gave from Bertrand Russel (gotta read up on that guy, he sounds interesting...)
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

It wasn't meant to be a mean question at all. I hope you didn't take it that way. It was meant to give you an excuse to explore why you try to be good. I am extremely curious as to what motivates people's actions if they truly believe there is no ultimate accountability for those actions. Thanks for the honest answer

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I am extremely curious as to what motivates people's actions if they truly believe there is no ultimate accountability for those actions.

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I believe that the individual is accountable for his/her actions. I do not believe in a higher power. I do not believe that life is meaningless. I believe that leading a positive existance gives benefits that overweigh those of a negative existance.

I find it very interesting, that infant humans are considered without sin by christians. I always thought that we were born into sin as humans, according to what I have heard. Now there seems to be some arbitrary age of accountability?

Strange stuff, indeed.

WS,

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...leading a positive existance gives benefits...

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The benefits realized for the individual are limited to this life alone in your view. Is that correct? That's seems reasonable. But what do you say to the other guy who reaps more benefits from this life by harming other people? Is he wrong for doing so?

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I find it very interesting, that infant humans are considered without sin by christians.

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It depends on which christians you are lumping into that statement. Roman Catholics have a formal doctrine of original sin which states all flesh is corrupted by the sin of Adam regardless of age.

The belief that we are all born with a sinful nature may be confusing you. I believe that all humans without exception will sin once they know the difference between right and wrong. But if they never reach the age of that knowledge then they died before actually committing any sin. Does that help?

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(Edited by Bugimus on 10-21-2004 01:37)

Can you define what you mean by benefits? Do you mean material benefits? I personally do not hold material things to be real benefits. I hold non-material things to be beneficial. I think Ghandi provides a good example of what I mean. I believe one who harms others, harms oneself. I especially became aware of this, during and after the First Gulf War. The damage I did to myself was horrendous. Whether or not someone is acutely aware of this damage or not, I largely think is irrelevant. Therefore, harming others is not beneficial.

I have therefore not stated that the benefits realized for the individual are limited to this state of being. I believe that death is but a change of state. Whether or not one retains the conscious mind I do not know. My people believe that one does.

I apologize for "lumping" - you are correct - I shouldn't have done that. There are divides among the christian faith, I should have been more specific.

(Edited by WebShaman on 10-21-2004 02:16)

I can't define what benefits mean since you were the one who said it. I think you made it clear though with your answer. Thanks.

I find it interesting that you don't fully accept the beliefs of your people. Where do you draw the line on that one?

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There is a difference between the stories that have been handed down from generation to generation, by way of mouth (and now way of word), and what I would define as reality. Many of the stories were more like Parables, and contain both Societal and Cultural meanings. Many of them are no longer relevant, having been superceded by the modern world and science.

Some ways, however, are not like that - they are demonstrative, that there is something else, that this state of being is not the only one. Rites of Passage, spirit (totem) animals and certain rituals.

Do you personally believe in a reality beyond this life? What specifically does it entail if you do? You know what I believe, I am very curious to know what you believe happens to us when we die.

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i believe i've mentioned this before, but Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis delves into the dicussion of where we derive our morality from, looking at it as societal vs environmental vs divine authority. a really interesting read if the subject is one that piques your curiousity.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I believe that Life is just one aspect of existence; and Death is but a change of state. On an elemenary level, this is known to be true; your physical being comes from material already in existence, and returns this material again upon death.

I believe, as my people do, that eveything has a spirit. Whether or not this spirit, after a change in state, retains conciousness of events and experiences before the change of state, I do not know. I do know, that the energy goes on - as does everyone who is aware of the properties of Physics.

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Do you personally believe in a reality beyond this life?

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I believe, that this life is but one small aspect of a larger reality. I do believe, that this is a natural reality.

I see. Everything make comprises you continues after the event we call death and you are undecided whether or not you will be conscious throughout that transition to the other side. That sounds very similar to basic Hindu belief. So do you believe your actions in this life affect the existence of the next? In other words, do you believe in Karma or a similar version of it?

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DmS said:

As for the purpose of life... why 42 of course

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He he, that book was cooky.

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DmS said:

if I could answer that coherently, I'd probably be the writer of the most read
book/article in the world

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Well, Dms, what do you think the most read/quoted/believed in book in the world is? Three guesses and two of them don't count.

About children and sin, let me break it down for you. In the Bible:

-Through Adam sin entered the world.
-He disobeyed God, and God punished him by putting a curse on the world.
*So far we have sin in the world, and the world has a curse. Skip a little:

-Abraham died, but was justified by his faith and righteousness and went to Heaven.
*Now we see a man who has sinned going into Heaven. Why? Well we find out later it was becuse there were no Ten Commandments, no law at all that judged what men were like. Back then it was on faith.

-Moses talks with God and gets the Ten Commandments and all the other laws.
*Now the world is judged by the Law because God has revealed it to man. There are certain rituals and sacrifices to cleanse the people of sin.

-Jesus steps into the picture and dies on the cross as a sacrifice. He takes our place of death and cleans us of our sins entirely.
*When Jesus died, everything changed. He took all the sin and got rid of it simply if you believed in Him. When the Law was introduced all the Law could do was convict you of sins. It could not save you from those sins. Jesus did. He was the light.

As for children, He repeatedly told His followers that if they were not like children they may not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This seems to imply purity, innocence, etc. When children have those qualities, Jesus covers them. They don't know how to comply with the rules yet, they don't even know what they are. Children generally are very trusting, and they will trust Jesus as soon as they hear of Him.

(If anyone has some comments about this, if I left anything out, please correct me)

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Well, Dms, what do you think the most read/quoted/believed in book in the world is? Three guesses and two of them don't count.

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I guess I walked right into that one

Seriously, that's part of the problem to me.
Since I've so far I havn't gotten an answer to the fundamental question "Why do you believe there is a god" other than "the bible says so" or words to that effect the whole thing is a bit too close to the "1+1 = 3 because 3-1 = 1" way of proving things.
"God exists because there is a book written by men that says god exists because they was told so by god."

This is provocative, I know
I had a long discussion around these points at yesterday lunch with a collegue and we basically got nowhere expect that we agree that, to us, there are a lot of contradictions and circular evidence going around when you discuss these things with a believer.

I suppose that's the whole thing about this, if you have faith, you don't need proof. Fair enough, that comes from the very definition of faith/belief, but where does this faith/belief come from?
You're not born with it, nor is it in the genes.

The only thing I can see is that you get it from from social training, which is influenced by the ethos of religion. This would also explain why there are different versions of religion in different societys. The concept of religion and it's ethos is mixed with the ethics of the society, thus creating a different set of religious values that people are socially trained in.

I don't have more time right now, but it's interesting for sure
This place is a lot better than most IRL discussions on this theme I've had because ppl take the time to read & think before answering.

As I get home I'll dig up a novel for you guys that really makes you think twice if you read it with an open mind.
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

Actually Bugs, it is more the belief of my people, than the Hindus. I believe that reality is just much, much bigger, than that which we see, or acknowledge.

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So do you believe your actions in this life affect the existence of the next?

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My people believe that the concious mind goes on with the spirit. I am not so sure. Until I have evidence of this, I will remain undecided. Though I have seen some pretty interesting things, there are other ways of explaining it currently. So, to answer your question, I just do not know.

First off WS, I have been confused when you say "my people," could you please enlighten me to who this is? I guess I missed it on an earlier thread?

I understand your frustration with many, most actually, believers. Many just don't really go looking for the answers to questions. I have been asked many questions, but the one that struck home was when a kid in my Boy Scout troop asked my why I believe in God. I was ashamed because I couldn't come up with an answer besides the Bible says so or I "just feel it" (I think this is what you are refering to). Well, I couldn't just shake that off. It didn't feel right. I searched for some answers. I understand most people don't like my story as to why I believe in God (Jesus/Father/HS), mainly because it was very lame, there was no miracle or near death experience just this: I read a book, thought about it, saw how my friends, family and teachers reacted to the subject and decided to read the Bible. After a while I got saved.

Not very impressive, I know. The impressive part was afterwards. After I trusted in an unseen God, and really, trully believed that if He was up there, He knew what was best, things started to happen. Sometimes they looked like coincidences, but so many at once? When I would wonder about something relating to one of God's commandments, something off the wall, a few minutes later, just a few, I would read something in the Bible, or see something on one of those Christian channels answering perfectly my question.

Jesus says in the Bible: You ask, the Father gives. You look for something, the Father finds it for you. You want to be a part of something, God finds a way. He also says that with His name, you can move mountains. He says that if you ask anything in His name, it will happen. I now think that this is why I believe in God. It wasn't something cool or miraculous like some people, but it is the continuing hand of God in my life. I ask for blessings on my friends in pray and guess what? They come true.

Since that day I have looked for answers to the questions posed to me. Sometimes the people who asked them don't like the answer (some answers no one like) but I try to find them anyway.

I also stand firm on the belief that the Bible should be taken literally. If Genesis alone was taken literally I believe there would be fewer problems with our society.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.