Topic awaiting preservation: Pets behavior (Page 1 of 1)

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Well, obviously, the method of punishment you've tried so far doesn't seem to work; and strong slaps are probably not the best way to get them get on with you well. How about trying to give them a reward when they do behave like you want them to? I think you really should try to work with rewards rather than with punishments.

Ok - it IS possible, that the cat(s) in question is(are reacting out of jealousy. Animals can react that way. In this place, however, it may be something different (as the cats were first raised and "learned" to live in a country setting, with all it's freedom, and now in a rather closed environment). It could be, that they just need to learn to use the cat potty.

Cats tend to be clean animals, and prefer to bury their waste. That comes naturally. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the "cat potty" was the problem here. Cats don't like to go where other cats do. They also don't like cat potty's that smell strongly of waste, or that are full of waste (kinda like humans, really). Make sure that it is cleaned regularly and often! Are the cats related (bloodwise)? Otherwise, it may be a territorial problem (and yes, males an females do stake out territories, and can be quite indifferent to one another in regards to this). I would suggest first trying TWO different cat potty's, in different areas of the house, to see if the behavior stops. If it does, then the problem was not one of jealousy. If it continues, then comes punishment and training.

Punishment - the best punishment method is, believe it or not, a spray bottle with equal parts water and vinnegar. Cats hate the taste and smell of vinnegar, so it makes a great way to punish them without physical pain methods. It is also very, very effectvie, IF the punishment method is used correctly. You need to catch the cat in question (hopefully, it is not BOTH of them!) in the act, and let it have it with the spray gun!! After a few times of this, I doubt that you will have further problems with the bathtub (but may have problems elsewhere, considering the reason why the cat(s) are crapping in the bathtub).

Training - depending on how the cats learned about going to the potty before, it could just be a training deficit. Giving them both their own potty could well solve the issue, with a bit of training. Again, catching them in the act is best for these purposes, and then bring them AND their poop to the appropriate potty. Set the cat in question and the poop in the potty. Repeatedly place the cat in the box. It should get the message pretty fast. "Here is where you can do your business". Use the punishment method with the spray to discourge the bathtub.

Let me know if the above advice helps.

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It sounds like you're generally going about things in the right way, but patience is really needed with animals inpart due to the confusion with ocmmunication.

I don't really have much to add except that with punishment you should be cautious not to ruin the relationship you have with them. A firm hand is what's needed with pets such as cats and dogs, but smacking until your hand hurts is always too much, you do the righ thing by rubbing the cats nose in it's mess (I assume you were gentle enough here) it's definitely one of the quickest ways to stop it doing it in the wrong place. As WS said a water/vinegar spray bottle is often the best form of direction for cats.

Just remember if you must smack don't over do it, and be patient.

Hope this helps, let us know how you get along.

Cheers,

I think there are many things people don't understand about raising animals. First off, animals ARE NOT people. An animal has no sense of "punishment". When a dog or cat does something you deem "wrong" they don't have the slightest clue why you're getting so upset. In order to train an animal NOT to do something, you have to put some fear into the act. And by fear, I don't mean be so violent that you scar the animal for life - violence is hardly ever the answer, especially with cats. You can't smack a cat like you can smack a dog - there's a difference. Cats and dogs behave in completely different ways.

In order to train a cat not to do something, find a way to scare it. Yes, that's right. Squirting it with a water bottle or loud noises (such as shaking pennies in a pop can) seem to work with most cats. The most important part about teaching a cat not to do something, is to catch them in the act of doing it, and that's when you employ your "scare tactics". YOU HAVE TO CATCH THEM IN THE ACT. You can't find a pile of shit, not know when the cat committed the act, and then go punish it. The cat won't know why you're punishing it. You absolutely, POSITIVELY must catch them in the act.

Another important thing is that you AND your girlfriend must be on the same page. You both have to punish when something wrong has been done - never let your animal get away with anything. I find most women are terrible at raising animals because they aren't consistent or will only act hard in a man's presence... Sounds sexist, but I have yet to be proven wrong.

So again, I stress that animals != people, and thus must be raised differently. My advice to you is to go read a book on the matter, if it really matters that much to you and your girlfriend. If it doesn't matter that much, well then you shouldn't own or look after animals.

Also, what was said above about cats is accurate - they don't like sharing litter boxes, and they don't like dirty litter boxes. Cats are also fussy about the brand of litter used. If you keep switching brands, a cat will end up not using it at all.



(Edited by synax on 01-18-2005 14:10)

Who has a problem with my behavior?

Positive reinforcement is the way to go with animals, like someone said above, punishment doesn't work. When you catch them crapping or pissing, pick them up and move them to where you want them to crap or piss, and when they have done their business, give them a treat. Rinse and repeat.

-Xel

I didn't read your second post all the way Ini, so I have to hurry.

You are not going about it the right way. We have been taught to punish an animal (by sticking their nose in the poo and then showing them where they need to go) this does NO good. The cat has already forgotten what it did by the time you do that and now they are just pissed at you for sticking their nose in shit.

They are upset that you are there. Gotta give them some love too

About the poo thing, try this 1/2 hour after they eat, put them in their litter boxes and wait for them to go to the bathroom, after they go (and hopefully they do quickly) give them a little cat nip or kitty treat.

Hope that helps


Should have read this though, this is VERY true about any animal.

quote:

---

synax said:

The most important part about teaching a cat not to do something, is to catch them in the act of doing it, and that's when you employ your "scare tactics". YOU HAVE TO CATCH THEM IN THE ACT. You can't find a pile of shit, not know when the cat committed the act, and then go punish it. The cat won't know why you're punishing it. You absolutely, POSITIVELY must catch them in the act.

---

Later,

C:\



(Edited by CPrompt on 01-18-2005 16:11)

I don't know if anyone else has suggested this or not, as I didn't read every reply (I just woke up and haven't had coffee yet), but have you tried putting a litter box in the tub at night? Once the cat starts using the box, you need to move it to the other end of the tub, then to right outside the tub, then further away from the tub, etc. You keep moving the box as long as the cat keeps using it.
Keep the box clean. Clean it 2 or 3 times a day if you need too.

Physical punishment is not the way to go, as has been stated several times above. Use a spray bottle with water and spray the cat to discourage bad behavior. You could also use a plastic bottle or a can with a lid with some small pebbles in it. Then, when the cat's misbehaving, toss the can or bottle in the vicinity of the cat *do no throw it at the cat*. The noise has the same effect as the water.

If you don't get this to work, you might want to take the cat to a veterinarian. The cat's behavior could be due to anxiety or a medical condition. Either way, worth checking out.

Good luck.

Sucko Baggins - Bilbo's lesser known brother.

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Before this thread falls in oblivion, could we see a pic of the 2 kitties driving crazy InI the über-Lord of Java and JavaScript ?

I just wanted to make a comment about this...

quote:

---

InI said:

The cats, in this case, do it ON PURPOSE, my sister's cat have always been doing things like this to express anger: doing it before my eyes is an explicit provocation. I can't let provocation go with animals that have a mammal brain and will, like children, abuse me if I am not firm: this is instinct, the weak pays even in the world of cats. These cats know where to piss and where not too, please let me stress that again: it's not about teaching them, it's about either understanding what they want to express, or having them express it in different ways.

---

Yes, the cat(s) clearly know that they're pooping in the tub, so it's not an accident. In that sense, they're doing it on purpose. BUT, not in the way that you're thinking. It's just a cat - it has no motive for crapping in the tub, it's merely doing it there because it wants to. It does not know where and where not to do its business, in your terms. Sure, a cat won't crap where it eats, but other than that the cat doesn't know that his/her big litter box is actually your bathtub.

And one more thing - spray water, not vinegar. Water isn't harmful, vinegar is. The act of getting wet is enough for the cat to flee, there's no need to be cruel...



(Edited by synax on 01-18-2005 18:16)

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We have 2 cats too, both males. I guess we were lucky, they both do their 'bussiness' in the right place, never had problems with this.
But I have to be with InI on this one. I gave this long thought observing them all day and i hope i'm not just casting humna behaviour or actions on animals. But there is no doubt pets, well, mammals, have their own personality, moods, prefferecens. And cats seem to have behaviours that resemble gealousy, anxiousness (is this a word? ) good mood, playfullness, etc.
Our younger cat clearny knows when he is being spoken, yelled too. he even reacts in a vocal way, growls back at me like he would like to speak, and looks at me when doing this. Also, the funniest thing is that he likes to get upset like a 5 year old when he does something bad and is yelled at. i just yell at him and clap my hands hardly, he stops doing the forrbidden thing, which ever it might be, leaves in another room growling over his shoulder in an agry tone.
Also, i think positive reinforcement isn't always a solution, in the sense that doesn't always aplly. For example we bought some olives yesterday and i was so craving for them ..well, we left them on the table in a small bag. Took them 3 minutes to get on the table, tear the bag, spill them on the floor, take a bite out of each, play a bit and then leave them. Now, what am i supposed to do? Give them treats each second cos they're not spilling olives right then? I mean how do they know that walking by the flower pot and not digging in the dirt just for pleasure is a good thing?
I'm not for hitting them all daqy long or hard for that matter, but sometimes it happens.

PS. With a kid it should be easier, i mean it craps in your shoes for 2 years and then you know you can reason with him, with an animal it's for life


Curiously yours, crip

(Edited by crip on 01-18-2005 19:15)

I'm not denying that your pets have feelings - I've owned pets my entire life - I'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise. What I'm saying is that just because your cat has crapped in your tub (or ravashed your bag of olives as the case may be) doesn't mean s/he did it as part of a diabolical scheme to ruin your day.

If your pet does something "bad" while you're sleeping, s/he's obviously not doing it to get your attention, otherwise they'd do it right in your face.

I'm also not one of those people who is all about the positive feedback for when your pet does something good. Positive feedback IS necessary, but just as necessary is negative feedback. When your pet does something wrong, you have to let them know. Usually it's a swift kick in the ass, "time out" in a cage, or being yelled at or whatever. You get to know your own pets as they mature, and you'll figure out what works and what doesn't.



(Edited by synax on 01-18-2005 19:28)

I had a cat that we had a problem litter training one time. So the vet told us to lock the cats in the bathroom, or some other small room (since you want to keep them from going in the tub) with the litter box and food. This way it is easy for them to find and leaves them with little choice. The vet also said that it might be the type of kitty litter that we used so you could also try a different brand. we did both and within a week our cat used the litter box fine.

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quote:

---

All of a sudden, they switch behavior.

---

Well yes, but you said that all of a sudden their whole scenario changed.

Obviously a major sudden change in environment and freedom of movement is going to affect an animal's behaviour.

I have to agree with synax on this. If they were trying to piss you off, they'd shit somewhere more personal than the bath tub.

the bath tub is, overall, a pretty pleasant spot to have to clean up compared to the array of options available.

I've seen vindictive animal behaviour, and trust me - it'd be far more blatant.

I also agree that a squirt of water is about the best treatment I've encountered with cats. But, as synax said, it *must* be done at the time of the behavior you wish to change - not after the fact.

no, i never said that they trashed my so craved olives cos they are diabolical, just used it an example, as it was fresh in my memory, for expalaining a context where positive feedback can't be used, I can't reward them every second just cos they sit still and play nice


Curiously yours, crip

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I really think that the move from the country could be a bigger factor than you had anticpated (quite hard for cats used to so much *freedom* to suddendly have it all taken away!)

however another idea you might want to try is similar to what someone else said about restricting where they can go at night, such as leaving them in one room (with somewhere to sleep, eat and shit all at the ready) - but, I'm sure I once saw a vet programme where they put a (cat/dog???) in a little cage at night, for a few nights - because THEY WONT SHIT WHERE THEY SLEEP (!?) - not entirely sure how this works but might be worth trying for a while??

on a sadder note, our cat died right after Xmas - she was very, very, VERY old and I miss her but I have to say she had recurring bladder problems and well I cant help but notice a slight similarity, in that personality thing - I totally believe that cats/dogs are capable of understanding things...

our cat would pee right in front of me in the living room / on carpet!!! rather than in the kitchen or using her cat flap to go outside BUT rather than being vindictive or anything this, I believe, was to tell us she was in a world of pain... anyways I dont mean to upset you, but if the problem continues, it could be health related and you ought to get it checked out...

L8rs
kit

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Cats. I have had the honor to have had many cats as companions in my life (and a few dogs, as well - but I am mainly a cat person). They can have a wide range of personality quirks, moods, feelings, etc. But as mentioned before, mostly when a cat is really miffed, or upset, it will do something it knows it is not supposed to, before the source of it's displeasure. (like scratching on the furniture right before your eyes. They will look right at you, and then start clawing, maintaining the eye contact, often).

So it is not like the cat(s) in question will "carry a grudge" and wait for the best opportunity to "pay back" the source of their displeasure in question. They normally are ruled "at the moment" by the particular mood, feeling, etc. And a cats moods, feelings, etc are pretty mercurial - and easy to steer in a different direction.

Cats react to new "competition" in their territory. Until they have accepted ones an Alpha member (or at least Alpha for them) they will be tend to be very wary of the new person in their environment. Some cats never do (mostly the very old ones, IMHE).

That said, I do use a mix of vinnegar and water (a weak mixture). It does no real harm, and it sticks to the fur of the cat, which they will lick, to get rid of the moisture, and just because cats like to clean themselves. Cats do NOT like the taste of vinnegar. It is this aspect, that will remain in memory (just like fear, taste by cats provokes a strong feeling). Thus, it is imperative to catch the particular cat in the act and tie the action of the cat with a memorably bad thing. Cats are very capable of learning (I should know, I once taught a cat of mine, a persian, to fetch a ball and bring it back to me, and drop it at my feet).

I wish you all the luck in the world, Ini. I, like Lacuna, would love to see a pic of the two cats. I'm sure you both will master the situation. After all, you are humans, and they are cats, right?

I haven't read the whole thread so this might been mention earlier.
I had the same problem. The cats crapped in the bathroom. So
I installed an motionsensor with alarm so when they were going
to take a crap they got scared. The downside is they often went there
at night. But maybe there is an motion sensor with an outlet which
you can connect some device which creates noise that only cats can hear (or does this only work with dogs?).

Personal opinion:

The slapping isn't a problem (so long as it isn't overdone) though this should be reinforced with positive action in response to 'correct' behaviour.

I used to have an English Bull-Terrier who thought it was a game when he was smacked. Eventually, I learned that he was more impressed by a short, sharp tap on the nose - it didn't hurt (esp. in comparison to an angry whack on the rump) but the shock was enough to get his attention.

Unfortunately, rubbing their noses in the evidence is now widely understood to have no benefit whatsoever - it does little more than confuse the animal and may even result in worse behaviour.
Would my smashing your windows be an effective way of communicating my dismay at the state of your curtains? It's about as relevant.


My suggestion:

Get rid of them and buy a couple of rats - they are clean, easily trained, bond well with their owner, and need very little space to exercise. Certainly a lot less work (less malodorous and more intelligent) than a cat, and they don't need the level of attention required by a dog.

(Edited by White Hawk on 01-21-2005 00:22)