Topic awaiting preservation: The popes' a dope (Page 1 of 4)

I always find it bewildering when these high holy men, who spend their lives extolling their love for their god and the virtues of the heavenly afterlife, then take advantage of every available medical resource to keep them from ascending to that richly deserved reward.

It is a good thing that this pope has shown compassion by embracing the deformed and diseased. It is unfortunate he could not find it in himself or his god to extend the same sort of compassion to the hundreds or thousands of children abused by paedophilic catholic priests. Choosing, instead of a hearty mea culpa, heartfelt apology and a generous application of green poultice, to deny the crime and continue to hide and protect these predatory villains.

I shall shed no tears for this man.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

I have always loved this Pope. I believe he is a man who genuinely loves God and humankind. I do not know for sure, but I doubt he was personally involved in the scandal. I honestly hope he was not.

The pedophile scandal is a huge blight on the RC church and there will be hell to pay for some as a result, both victims and perps, quite literally. It is horrific. The only consolation I can take in it is that it has finally been brought to light and people are cracking down on it.

Ehtheist, since I'm just getting to know you, is your beef primarily with the Catholic church, all of Xianity, and/or all religion? I assume your an atheist? I am not Catholic but I am Christian. In fact, I often get into debates with jade on that topic.

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Wouldn't it be idealistic to think that the Pope was not informed of the "dirty laundry" of the Church?

If he wasn't aware of it, that leaves a huge amount of questions, about exactly what he truly was/is aware of, and how much control over the Church he really had.

I don't care about the pope. Still I doubt he was aware of every pedophile affair. He gives guidelines to the RC Church but he does not control all his minions.

I sincerely doubt that the pope was aware of every case of pedophilia! I am however pretty sure that he knew that it was a problem, and that there were pedophiles under the clergy that were being protected by the Church.

If he was totally unaware of the problem, then that raises serious questions about his ability to control and steer the Church, doesn't it?

Bugs,

Thank you for your kind words on Pope John Paul. He truly is a very holy man. I would ask for your prayers at this time as he is very sick. I know we don't agree all the time but know you are very sincere in your words.

I agree. Although I haven't been able to see as much of what Pope John Paul has done, I have been able to gather that he is and was a righteous man. I hope that he does get better, because he has been a great pope so far.

Okay guys, the Pope (I am guessing) is in the same boat that Paul was in when he was around. Paul wanted desperately to leave this plane of existance and be with Jesus again. Desperately. But, he stayed. Why? For the people. For God's children. Paul stayed here so that he could instruct and help out those who still needed his help (he was the primary Gentile Missionary of the time). The same could be said of Pope John Paul. I have no doubt that he can't wait to get a hug from Jesus on a job well done. But he is trying to stay here so that he can still help those out who need it.

As for the Pope not knowing about everything, I'm sure he doesn't either. The Pope can't know everything, everywhere. That is why he has help. There are many people who handle things on a smaller and local scale. (correct me if I'm wrong Jade) The Pope is more in touch about international measures.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Man, where DO I start?

There is a phrase used in law to do with liability and responsibility "...knew or ought to have known".

It means if you are in a position of authority and you claim you didn't know what was going on, you should have and are still responsible. Applies here.

Cracking down is hardly the applicable term, there are some clergy being prosecuted and not just in the catholic church. At the same time, the offenses are sytill taking place and the churches where they figure they can get away with it are still covering them up.

If this were not the case, if the various churches had purged themselves of pedophiles, the new charges which keep coming to light, would not.

Bug I pretty much have no use for any religion, but most particularly for those which hold themselves up to be paragon's of moral virtue and who yet allow such things as the pedohpilia matters continue. No I don't believe in any gods.

POI, he didn't have to be aware of every instance, merely the fact they were taking place. He knew and did nothing. He is a perfect example of a religious hypocrite.

Jade, let me see if I have this correct, you expect this god, with the whole universe to manage, to intercede and fix the pope's flu just because you pray? Talk about hubris.

As well, where is your humanity? The poor man is at death's door and in extreme discomfort. You want him to continue to suffer?

Gid, methinks you have a terminal case of rectumlinear vision.

I notice none of the Bible Thumpers addressed the issue of why, if heaven is so wonderful, all those religious people spend so much money extending their time on earth?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

I must say, I am shocked and appalled at the level of naivety that has been shown by the religious members in this thread.

The pedophile scandals of the Church have been going on for a long time. It has been in the news. I haven't seen one word on this from the pope himself. Did he at least express his deepest apologies and regards to the hordes of victims affected? Did he pursue these clerics hiding behind their frocks, and deliver them to justice?

I think he was more concerned on how this could impact the image of the Church, and actively worked to keep it quiet and covered up.

This is not some little type of misdemeanor here. It is a very serious crime, and it does terrible things to the victims. That the Chruch bent so much time and effort into attempting to keep it quiet and out of the media and the courts - the pope must have known about this - it was (and is) a crisis!

Thanks WS for re-iterating my point. It is the refusal by the religious to even admit this sort of thing is going on which allows it to continue. Note how they gloss over it or simply ignore it.

This is soto voce approval of the practice and of the cover-up.

It is a problem for all churches as well, not just the Catholic and is taking place somewhere as you are reading this.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

What strikes me the most is that nobody seems to be shocked by a 84 years old man experiencing several disabilities and still running the catholic church...

On the contrary thousands of catholics are praying for him to recover.

Yes, there really is a crisis in the catholic church. And the problem is that most christians are blind about how outdated and static their dogma is. If young and dynamic people lead this religion perhaps things would change, but christians want senile popes who please themselves in their immobilism.

Pedophelia is just an example. Remember, 26 years ago John Paul II acknowledged Galileo was right. Yes, it was in 1979, 10 years after men walked on the moon, and 346 years after Galileo was sentenced to life by the church for his work.

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If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

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WebShaman said:

I must say, I am shocked and appalled at the level of naivety that has been shown by the religious members in this thread.

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I don't exactly have any say in the affairs of the RC church. I have been extremely critical of the pedophile scandal, beginning 10 years before it was common knowledge when I had first heard of it.

Ehtheist is right about this not being limited to Roman Catholicism. It is very difficult for human beings to rise above their natural behavior and in no way are Xians excepted from that. But since they hold themselves up to a higher standard they need to be prepared to own up to their actions. In our culture pedophilia is illegal, and the RC church should not have protected their priests from legal action. They could still have worked to restore and rehabilitate all the while following the laws of the land and taking the moral high ground after such a terrible travesty. This goes for all churches.

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WebShaman said:

If he was totally unaware of the problem, then that raises serious questions about
his ability to control and steer the Church, doesn't it?

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I would think so, yes. I tend to think he's been out of if for quite some time now. I don't agree with the Catholic model of church government. As you may recall, I favor only Christ sitting where the Pope sits and having autonomous congregations accountable to Christ and not to Rome. We've had some threads in the past that have explored this topic in more detail.

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I agree completely that the issue of sexual predation is a human, not a catholic, problem.

Why it becoms a catholic problem more specifically is a multi-tiered issue.

1) A priest is placed in a position of almost absolute power. Even today, people are taught that they are to listen to the priest on all matters (at least many are). Priests act as counselors in many situations, and I have many times heard some of the most detrimental advice come from them.

2) A priest is looked at as somehow better than normal humans. They are looked as stronger, more moral, more in control of temptation. The problem here is twofold -

a) nobody is better than human. we're all human, and while some of us are better than others at controlling ourselves...we're all still human.

b) the priesthood is a sort of refuge for a certain caste of person. The type of person who feels he *cannot* control his temptations....the type of person who feels he needs to keep away from the public as a whole, the type of person who has deep-seeded issues to work out (such as homosexual feelings that they cannot come to terms with....feeling that they are wrong for having such feelings....or even true sexual deviancies like a predaliction for pedophilia. {** please note I am not equating homosexuality with pedophilia...jsut listing the types of issues that people do have...}).

3) The catholic church, as has been demonstrated throughout it's history, is more concerned with appearing to be right than they are with being right (the Galileo issue is a fine example, and there are thousands more...).

The combination of these things makes the catholic priesthood a virtual breeding ground for sexually abusive behavior. Something needs to change, very drastically.

Does this mean that all christians are responsible for the actions of these priests and their protectors? Of course not. But many beyond the priests themselves most *certainly* bear responsibility. In some cases, the parents themselves are at fault to a rather large extent as well.

And the rest of the congregation who follow blindly, and refuse to believe that the evil happening right in front of them is real...
How much insult is added to injury when a child is raped by one of the people he is taught to respect above so many others....and has nowhere to turn because nobody will hear it...?

DL, I think that is very well put. Not dealing with this problem will only allow it to continue. Reform is absolutely essential regarding this problem.

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DL-44 said:

How much insult is added to injury when a child is raped by one of the people he
is taught to respect above so many others....and has nowhere to turn because
nobody will hear it...?

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I believe the life to come is more important than the present one, therefore I would take that even further. Representatives of the church who abuse young people in this way quite often commit murder of the soul. If by their abuse they drive the victim away from God forever, they have effectively damned them to hell on top of causing them years of damage in this life to deal with. How would you like that on your rap sheet?

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If a pedophilic priest drives a youth away from the church, it would be the greatest favour he could bestow. Though it would be the wrong way of going about it. The churches have proven they are far more interested in damage control than in aid for the victims and so staying with the church would merely aggravate the injury.

At the same time the victim might have a chance to clear his head of all the foolishness pumped into it by the church and learn to see it for the tissue of lies it all is.

I'd like to see these buggers get there's here as there is no more an afterlife than there is a god.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

(Edited by Ehtheist on 02-27-2005 02:58)

Ehtheist, it is a given in the Asylum that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven.

So here's another getting to know you question. Do you *believe* there is no god, or do you hold there is no reason to acknowledge God's existence in the absence of proof to that effect?

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As I said above, I don't care about the pope, did not follow the many pedophilic priests affairs, except some that happen in France, and didn't know the pope waited to denounce them.

Actually the hierarchic superiors of the pedophilic priests are penally responsibles for not denouncing the crimes they know of. Therefore they must be judged and sentenced just like the bas***** they protected.

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If by their abuse they drive the victim away from God forever, they have effectively damned them to hell on top of causing them years of damage in this life to deal with.

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I wish you good luck to convince a victim of a pedophilic priest to not renounce to "his/her" faith by fear of being damned to hell. I doubt the victims are willing to offer the other cheek and be abused again for the love of God and to "save their soul".

poi, that is exactly my point. Victims of this abuse are often driven away from God for good. From your perspective I suppose it is cause for rejoicing, but surely you know that from mine it is horrific.

But there is one thing that we can both agree on. The perpetrators must answer to the earthly authorities for these crimes.

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Not only the perpetrators but also the people who covered them up must answer to the authorities for these crimes.

As they say, "to the fullest extent of the law". I suppose that varies by country.

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I have no belief in any god bug and there is a total absense of evidence in favour of any of them existing.

Again I repeat, as to the matter of proof, the burden of same is upon the one making the positive claim where there is no evidence to support the contention.

So perhaps the Asylum credo should be re-written to acknowledge this fact.

Which fact, in case you missed it, is: it is not necessary to disprove the existance of that which is not there.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Which fact, in case you missed it, is: it is not necessary to disprove the existance of that which is not there.

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it sure is old, but still, amen to that


People asked me to prove the nonexistence of God, I got confused and said..."How can I prove nonexistence of something that doesn't exist?"

I will not rule out the possibility of a Supreme Being. Just because we cannot to date prove or disprove the existence thereof, does not mean that it is not possible. Please keep in mind that Science has taught us that there are things that at a particular moment, could not be explained but were later explained as Scientific methods of measuring, etc advanced.

I like to keep an open mind here, and let the facts speak for themselves.

Thus, we have neither proof for or against the existence of God to date.

I believe that this is something that most of us "oldies" here have come to an agreement on and is a good basis to have such discussions on religion, without participating in flame wars.

Unfortunately, there are always those who for some reason cannot accept this stance (though it is reasonable).

To agree upon a common basis to debate and discuss on, allows us to exchange experiences, ideas and thoughts on these matters (both Religious and Scientific). It is also a basis that we can all accept - even if one does not totally agree with it personally, the evidence (or lack thereof) lends a reasonable credence to such a basis.

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poi, that is exactly my point. Victims of this abuse are often driven away from God for good. From your perspective I suppose it is cause for rejoicing, but surely you know that from mine it is horrific.

But there is one thing that we can both agree on. The perpetrators must answer to the earthly authorities for these crimes

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I agree with this, but let us not forget in the mind of a child, who is held in higher esteem in family life. Its the parents. The role models, and care takers. Parents & family members are sexual abusers too. Statistics are that a child's mind is severely damaged by the abuse he suffers from a family member than a religious. The crime of sexual abuse is rampant all over the world and does not discriminte. It happens in every class, race and age group and culture. A victim sees life differently and becomes bitter and trust is often shattered. A different road is traveled after a victim feels let down by a persons held in trust. Their heart turns cold, and its hard for them to love. They find ways to escape the traumas thur other abuses. Lets not be blind to the persons pointing the fingers crying about the religious scandal of child abuse, when in their own households crimes of sexual abuse are committed.

(Edited by jade on 02-28-2005 01:18)

Not in my houshold Jade, I don't know what goes on in yours.

Certainly sexual abuse by family members is rampant (I think in some parts of Arkansas and Georga it is mandatory)and abhorant, this does not excuse church authorities from their guilt. Every single person who knew of these acts and did not report them is equally guilty, every single person who was complicit in a cover up and shifting the offending clergy from one diocese (oh boy, fresh boys!) to another is equally guilty. The guilt extends all the way to the top and only the most facile liar or head-in-the-sand zealot would deny the fact.

Personally I hope the lawsuits bankrupt every chuirch involved in the lawsuits. Perhaps then they will learn to care more for the welfare of their flocks than for Mammon.

But I doubt it.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

So, once again, your answer is to point out that other peopel do it too, and try to ficus more on that instead of actually addressing the issue itself?

Yes, it happens in families. Yes, loved ones commit such acts on innocent victims as well.

But individuals committing these acts are not a global organization who shuffle the perpertrator's from town to town, intentionally allowing them find more innocent and unknowing victims over and over for the sake of not having to address the issue - for the sake of keeping the image of their organization clean while the underside rots.

People like you, Jade, who constantly downplay the seriousness of the issue, on all it's levels, are the kind of people who share in this burden of guilt!

Yes, I mean that very seriously. You have countless times swept under the carpet these attrocities, diverting and protecting, and belittling the horror they have done.

That is disgusting. Very truly.

Geem DL, I wish I had said that. Nice!

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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People like you, Jade, who constantly downplay the seriousness of the issue, on all it's levels, are the kind of people who share in this burden of guilt!

Yes, I mean that very seriously. You have countless times swept under the carpet these attrocities, diverting and protecting, and belittling the horror they have done.

That is disgusting. Very truly.

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I never have downplayed the seriousness of the scandal. Think what you must of me if it makes you feel better. You thinking of me as a guilty partaker in the scandal just proves my point about anti-catholic bigtory. I am truly not suprised by your better than them attitude. To see 1 billion Catholics as child molesters is truly a extremely dicriminating view. If you only knew how absurd that way of thinking comes across. I can only wonder.

I was merely pointing out that sexual abuse happens on a greater level in the family home. Odds are that it happens more at home than at church(s). So, also shift you concern if it is genuine for the hypocrite who may live next door and who may be the pillar of the community and is complaining the loudest about church abuse.

I use to work in a rectory when I was going to school. I would see families coming in for domestic family and sexual abuse. Coaches, fathers, uncles, teachers would be the perpetrators too. The priest would bring in the family member(s) and counsel. So for the bad you see, there is also great good the church performs in helping families of abuse. One boy in particular had been penetrated by his father from 6 to 12 years old. The priest referred the case to an attorney to bring charges. The mother supposedly never knew of the abuse. I found this hard to believe being a parent myself that a mother could not know.

So, if you want to think a few bad apples in the family of the church soils the whole institution, then think again. Bringing the evil into the light, helps to cleanse and heal the wounded so it may never happen again.

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Bringing the evil into the light, helps to cleanse and heal the wounded so it may never happen again.

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Then stop making excuses, and stop belittling the actions that took place throughout the heirarchy of the catholic church, and have been covered up by priest, bishop, and parishiner alike.

Your other points are irrelevant, and put many words in my mouth, so I will not bother to address them.

My initial points stand as they were made, as does my opinion of your viewpoint.

Talk about downplaying the problem. A few bad apples? Man are you blind. We are talking about barrels of apples pal and over centuries!

I have also heard of abused children going to their priest for help and then finding themselves abused again.

Priest is generic as far as I am conerned BTW.

At least with family sexual abuse, we are making some inroads, better education and the stigma is becoming less painful so that victims find it increasingly easier to come forward.

At the same time the churches are still denying and shifting offending priests to newer pastures without warning or penalty.

Sure, they throw one out to the wolves every now and again, meanwhile it is the same old game back at the cloistered halls.

Admit it Jade and perhaps you may yet redeem some of your credibility.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Admit it Jade and perhaps you may yet redeem some of your credibility.

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Crediblity? On this forum? You have got to be kidding. Who is credible up to this point so far to you since your are new Etheist? Are you a credible source?

Well to date, I believe I display a model much closer to credibility, reasoned and rational thought than do you or Gid.

Your ball.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Oh for sure. You are more credible and smarter than I am. You and others have much more rational and reasoned thought to believe there is no God either. So why am I not convinced.

You who are without a sin, may you be the first to cast stones. Everyone has a chance to redeem themselves in this world. This is the basis for which Christ came into the world. To forgive, to wash away sin and to make new again. Did you ever read up on the Christian beliefs? It all about forgiveness and compassion. So, can you forgive when wrong is done against you? Or do you not believe in forgiveness. Besides its not up to you and me. Its up to Christ Jesus, who is judge and jury in the redeeming of sins. So I would say, stop trying to make judgements on the soul. Its not your place.

(Edited by jade on 02-28-2005 20:04)

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...stop trying to make judgements on the soul. Its not your place.

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Crediblity? On this forum? You have got to be kidding. Who is credible up to this point so far to you since your are new Etheist? Are you a credible source?

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- Jade

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Well to date, I believe I display a model much closer to credibility, reasoned and rational thought than do you or Gid.

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- Ehtheist

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So I would say, stop trying to make judgements on the soul. Its not your place.

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- Jade

Uhhh...what does credibility, and reasoned and rational thought have to do with making judgements on the soul? I mean...I am not following you here, Jade. They just are not one and the same.

Also, DL not only has a very good point, but he has nailed your inability to face the facts and truths of the situation. Everytime you are called on these things, you do a "switch" - and throw something in that is entirely unrelated, and avoid answering the question altogether. Turning a blind eye makes one guilty - it is no longer a position of innocence.

Web where are you and DL getting your accusations against me not facing facts about the scandal of the church? I never have sanctioned it or approved of it. I was appalled as your were. Talking about putting words in peoples mouth. Its pretty ridicilous to believe I think the abuse and the cover up are ok. And have something to do with it. But think what you must, if it keeps me in a bad light and settles your preconcieved notions about me and all catholics in general. If you sleep better at night thinking your on the right side of the fence, good for you. If the abuse never happened, you would find something else to blame the catholics for? There are so many like you out there. Like tigers prancing around waiting to point the finger and judge given the opportunity so you all can wallow in self-rightousness.

Jade,

If one is not religious, one is without sin as sin is a religious crime.

Further since I accept neither the existance of your xist or the soul, such judgements by fictitious or at best a long-dead man affect me not at all.

But WS makes a good point, when the issue was raised the first thing you did was start talking about sexual abuse in families rather than espress your disgust with the church and your opposition to it's actions.

It is not until your last post you made a definitive statement about your position and that you were shamed into.

Self rigtheousness? I am afraid that is largely a siin of the religious;
self-right·eous (slfrchs)
adj.
Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.
Exhibiting pious self-assurance: self-righteous

Piety is pretty much associated solely with religion.

Good word though and describes well certain xians, some of whom tred these threads.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Like tigers prancing around waiting to point the finger and judge given the opportunity so you all can wallow in self-rightousness.

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What? No, I most certainly am not "wallowing" in self-righteousness. Why should I? In fact, I was appalled, shocked, and sickened by what seemed to be your inability to denounce these heinious crimes. If being physically sick to the stomach is wallowing in self-righteousness, then you can have it.

You are missing the point, once again. It is at least nice to see you say

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I never have sanctioned it or approved of it

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Now, why didn't you just come out and say that in the first place? That you were appalled and against the abuse and the cover-up.

By not doing so, and by constantly pointing the finger somewhere else, you gave the impression that you did not find it all that bad. And some of the comparisons that you made "Abuse in the home is worse than from a priest" - that just made the impression worse.

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. If the abuse never happened, you would find something else to blame the catholics for? There are so many like you out there.

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First of all, no, that is not true - I don't need to search for more - my people surffered enough at the hands of the Church. And no, there is no-one else like me out here. I am unique, just as everyone is.

And to answer one of your questions - I am Cherokee.

WS, native peoples all over North and South America were horribly abused by one sect of xianity or another and continue to be to this day in some parts, as I am sure you are aware.

You are doubtless aware too of the collusion between the Canadian Government and various churches here early in the last century in what was, for all intents and purposes, an attempt at genocide.

Sadly the government and the churches refuse to face up to their responsibilities on these matters and many lawyers are geting rich as a result.

Some natives 'foxed the churches though...I have read that many of the South American people, rather than continue to see their families murdered, adopted the Cathloic saints and ceremonies, then promptly introduced code words for their own faith. So while they were on their knees counting beads, they were in fact still worhipping their ancestral gods. Carved statues of many catholic saints could be turned around to view a depiction of an ancient native god.

Of course, penalties for getting caught with those could be severe.

A warm and loving religion I must say.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

The Vatican has just slapped in the face every person sexually abused by catholic priests.

Bernard Law has been invited to mumble some mumbo-jumbo related to the recent and too long delayed death of the Poop.

Law, you may recall is the chap who repeatedly transferred priests caught diddling kids and covered up their predation.

He should have been defrocked, instead he is rewarded.

This is a clear signal that the vatican does not consider sexual abuse by it's clergy to be a big deal at all.

Not that that is news, but it is good to have it confirmed.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)