Topic awaiting preservation: The popes' a dope (Page 2 of 4)

Yes, I've read a few articles about it so far.

Truly apalling that this man has not been stripped of all title and status at the very least.

Absolutely mind-numbing that he was appointed by John Paul II to his post as the archpriest of Basilica Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome, after resigning his post in Boston because of his role in the child rape perpetuation.

Absolutely mind numbing...
And now he is part of ceremonies celebrating the life of the Pope.

Please, someone tell what conclusion anyone can draw about the catholic church in light of such things??

I thought I did that already.

The catholic church, from it's unholy seat in Italy, has just declared open season on catholic children.

A major, world-wide pedophile ring was recently broken up in a joint US-Canadian operation. Running the whole operation (allegedly), was...a catholic priest.

The message dear reader is this: not only is it ok to diddle the kiddies, but there is every reason to believe the church will do it's best to protect you from any earthly judgement, and there is every chance the church may also promote and reward you.

Why does anyone want to be part of systematic abuse of children?

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Ethiest - I know very thoroughly what conclusion to draw, and what these actions show the world. My statement was more a plea (or a challenge) to those who have supported the church through this whole affair.

I kow DL, I just had more to say:

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

I saw an interesting documentary on the Inuit people. They are slowly working their way back to their roots after this Catholic mission to the Inuit

Some of the most tragic of things was both the mention of how the Catholic Priests drove the Shamans almost to extinction, and the amount of child abuse that they said they had experienced.

And here is something else The Army of God

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The stories are horrific: stories of child-priest orgies, of clerics employing holy oils as lubrication for attempted sodomy, of Church officials knowingly accepting pederastic priests from other diocese, then shuffling them from parish to parish whenever new accusations arose.

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I seriously doubt that the Pope was not aware of the Pedophile issue in the Church. The scale and scope of it is just too great.

One other thing - why is this

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5 "Kabed et avicha v'et imecha" - (Honor your Father and your Mother) - Revering and honoring one's parents is considered a basic commandment in Judaism from the perspective that there are three partners involved in the creation of a human being: one's parents and G-d Himself. That is why this Commandment is included with the first five, which are considered basically between Man and his Creator.

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more important to god, than sexually abusing children? In fact, there is nothing against sexually abusing children in the Ten Commandments. One isn't allowed to commit Adultry, but nothing about sexually abusing children is in there.

(Edited by WebShaman on 04-12-2005 07:00)

go away Ehtheist

(Edited by cigam83 on 04-12-2005 07:00)

^Play nice...

I think the world and you guys included has seen the power of the church here on earth this last week and the week to come which surpasses any government and democracy.

For all the negative you percieve it has, it is the greatest institution on earth.

I was glad Cardnial Law was there. Why should he go hide in some dark corner? It shows forgiveness and that is what Christianity is all about. Jesus preached it and lived it. I am sure if he was guilty in anyway, Jeuse has forgiven him. And that is all that matters.

I am going to the Vatican next year and hope to get full of Catholicity.

I am completely speechless Jade....

Just...shocked to hell and back, Jade.

Wow.

Would you let this man anywhere near your children, unsupervised?

(Edited by WebShaman on 04-12-2005 16:09)

Yes

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WebShaman said:

sexually abusing children is in there

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Well, sexual immorality kinda covers the whole scope WS.

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DL-44 said:

Please, someone tell what conclusion anyone can draw about the catholic church
in light of such things??

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The Catholic Church either does one of two things:
1. They forgive quickly
-This has its ups and downs. fogiveness can give someone reassurance and a sense of belonging. It was Jesus' heart to forgive, and in doing so the Catholic Church believes to be following Jesus' example by forgiving tresspasses. The flip side of this coin is that if offenses aren't resolved before a new appointment, then they could start again, possibly even greater.
2. The Catholic Church hides quickly
-The Catholic Church could be doing a bad job to hide/push aside the whole affair, in order to uphold the "righteousness" of the church. This is possibly the most dangerous, because that would mean that they are trying to shove aside offenses, and not meet and correct them. This could result in an unbalanced dictatorship which would turn most if not all Catholic leaders into hypocrites.

I hope for the first, because while it is still very dangerous, it means that the Catholic Church still has its heart in the right place (albeit too innocently). If the second is true, we have a very troubling future...

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jade said:

I am going to the Vatican next year and hope to get full of Catholicity.

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Catholicity...

DL, your challenge to the supporters of "the church," was that to supporters of the Catholic Sect or the Christian Church?

Ehtheist - Do you know who Lucretius is, or did you just like his quote?

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

You would let a man who was DIRECTLY responsible for moving child molestors from town to town, to allow them to continue their predation in secret, to be alone with your children?

Then on top of everything else, you are a complete fucking idiot.
Views like that are *exactly* why so many children have been raped over and over for decades throughout the country.

This man has been forgiven? What did he do to deserve forgiveness? Did he even confess anything, or apologize, or anything even remotely along those lines? Or did he simply run away to Rome for protection? (I ask because I don't know)

Your over dramatizing DL.

Yes. I would leave my child under the supervision of a priest & many priest. I, myself have been alone with many priest thur many years, from my childhood, adolesenct, teen to adult years. Nothing every happend to me. Every priest in the world is not a criminial.

Rape, molestation & abuse happens in all areas of life. More on the outside than in church. In all faiths. You don't seem so apalled at them too.

Men who use to be boys were and are raped more by their own flesh and blood fathers, uncles and teachers, strangers than priest.

My relative was moletesed as a boy scout in his teens by a boy scout leader. He was abusing many of the boys. No body told.
YOu don't even hear about it in the paper or news???????

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The Catholic Church could be doing a bad job to hide/push aside the whole affair, in order to uphold the "righteousness" of the church. This is possibly the most dangerous, because that would mean that they are trying to shove aside offenses, and not meet and correct them. This could result in an unbalanced dictatorship which would turn most if not all Catholic leaders into hypocrites.

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I think the over 1 billion catholics trust the church and its hierarchy. Look who the college of cardinals with the help of the holy spirit choose the last time? They are responsible for picking the "greatest man of the century" according to time magazine, etc al, who just happens to be a Catholic pope. So, they will preservere and choose well.

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Every priest in the world is not a criminial.

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But this one is! What the hell are you smokin' Jade????????

This man directly facilitated the continuous rape of children by these priests!

How can you make excuses????

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YOu don't even hear about it in the paper or news???????

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Yes, you most certainly do! It was in the news a *lot* a few years ago. And guess what? The Boy Scouts, unlike the Catholic Church, DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

It is appalling whenever, wherever, and however it happens.

But it is far more appalling when an entire organization plays a role in hiding the crime, hiding the criminals, and worse - actually facilitating the crime by putting the molestor in a new, fresh environment in which to continue unabated.

It is far more appaling when jackasses like you fight tooth and nail to support and play down the actions of these criminals.

If I were to pray, I would pray that have more regard for your children than to leave them alone in the presence of a person KNOWN to have facilitated many child molestors in the very recent past.

BTW - John Paul Paul II was not chosen as Time's Person of the Century - Albert Einstein was. John Paul is in the top 100.

Also note: it is not "greatest man". There are people on there who are very evil people. Read the criteria they use: it is not about positive actions it is purely about the impact on the world that a person had, for good or bad (note, for instance, that adolf hitler is on the same list that pope john paul is....).



(Edited by DL-44 on 04-12-2005 22:36)

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But it is far more appalling when an entire organization plays a role in hiding the crime, hiding the criminals, and worse - actually facilitating the crime by putting the molestor in a new, fresh environment in which to continue unabated.

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You are so wrong, the ENTIRE orgainiztion? Please just take off your "I despise the catholic church" lenses for just one moment and realize what your saying. Wait a minute, I won't even bother to address this, its so ludricous. How old are you? Honestly sometimes I think your level headed, then you slip back into form.


Well, I guess, I got the magazine wrong, but I have been reading it all over the internet. No doubt he will be regarded as man of the century for his holiness, compassion and spiritual message worldwide. Regardless, he will be recgonized as "John Paul the Great" in the future. Anti-Catholics, can't find anything else negative to say about the Roman Catholic church, so they have to scrounge around and come up with is the "Priest Scandal" for the 1000th time. How repeitious.

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Also note: it is not "greatest man". There are people on there who are very evil people. Read the criteria they use: it is not about positive actions it is purely about the impact on the world that a person had, for good or bad (note, for instance, that adolf hitler is on the same list that pope john paul is....).

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So your comparing Adolph Hitler to Pope John Paul? That makes sense coming from you in regard to making the same impact. In your eyes Pope John Paul must be evil.

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So your comparing Adolph Hitler to Pope John Paul?

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No. Read what I said.

Time magazine has the two people on the same list of "people of the century". This was stated to illustrate that being on that list does not make one a "great" person.

And, "for the 1000th time", when the church has actually addressed the issue of it's heirarchial members who have both raped thousands of children, and facilitated the rape of those children, at all levels of said heirarchy, and actually removed the offenders from that heirarchy and accepted and acknowledged the things that happened, and proven that they are willing and able to seriously deal with it....

Then I will stop bringing it up.

When the head of the organization protects someone like cardinal Law, who was instrumental in the "scandal" as you like to call it, and there are priests all over the US and bishops in charge of them involved, that's close enough to the "whole" organization for me.

If that's not good enough, let's outline it for you:

At the Top:

-The Pope
--Cardinals/Archbishops
---Bishops
----Priests
-----People like Jade who excuse, support, hide, and defend the actions of all those above

Looks like we've got the organization covered from top to bottom.

Does that now qualify as the whole organization?

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And, "for the 1000th time", when the church has actually addressed the issue of it's heirarchial members who have both raped thousands of children, and facilitated the rape of those children, at all levels of said heirarchy, and actually removed the offenders from that heirarchy and accepted and acknowledged the things that happened, and proven that they are willing and able to seriously deal with it....

Then I will stop bringing it up.

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We have dealt with it. We have adressed it. Its over. Except for you. It will never be over for you and your not even Catholic. I wonder why you care so much. Seems you have a personal war and vendetta. Cardinal Law doesn't have to answer to you or anyone else. Its over. Done with. They moved him. He isn't a threat. And he will help pick the next Pope. I can live with it. Why can't you. I should feel more betrayed than you. Remember " Your not Catholic". Your jumping on the bandwagon because the media still rides on the scandal. Nothing will suffice you.

It's not over for the thousands of victims, Jade.

*They* feel betrayed. You have no reason to feel betrayed - you're part of the problem.

(Edited by DL-44 on 04-13-2005 01:00)

Bicker, bicker, bicker...
Wow, this is going down hill fast...
I can see the cliff drop in the distance, too...

Listen, Dl, there is this thing that lots of Christians do called forgiveness. I believe it is not a new term to you, and that you have probably done it to someone or someones before, am I correct? Well, to Christians, forgiveness is a very high priorty, because Jesus made a huge presidence of it. Now, I will agree that not all Christians forgive well, and not all self proclaimed "Christians" do what is right, but there are at least a few out there still trying to be Christians and do things pro Christo. These Christians try to bring love to people, and you can't do that by condemning them every two seconds.

Granted, this priest, as far as I know, did not publically confess to his crimes, but does he have to? I know that it is a nasty crime, but depending on the guy, he might not have to. Here is my reasoning: this guy might be crushed by what he did. If he really feels remorse about it and has asked Jesus to forgive him and help him to conquor it, then I have no problems with him. He can help ellect the new pope too, for all I care. I know that I have done some things I would rather not have public, so if he can fix the problem, I see no reason to keep him from helping people.

But, if he does not have remorse for his crimes, if he did not repent of them with his heart, then I agree with you whole-heartedly DL. Now, I don't like to take people's word on things, eventhough sometimes it is necessary, so I wouldn't go on what the Catholic Church has said, nor what the media has said about his personal state. That is something for him alone to work out with his God.

Oh, btw DL, could you answer my other question please? I am getting a little anxious.

Jade, I really hope that when you said you were going to get filled up with Catholicism, you didn't mean what I think you meant...

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

oh please...spare me the lectures on forgiveness. I understand forgiveness quite well.

But tell me how forgiving someone equates to allowing them to retain the office that allowed them to commit the crimes in teh first place?

Let's give the whole situation the big rosy benefit of the doubt, and say that cardinal law is forgiven for his horrible horrible sin.

That has absolutely nothing to do with his gross inability to properly perform his duties.

Can anyone explain why it should mean that, in rational terms?

{{edit - Gideon, as to your question - about the meaning of my statement? It was aimed at anyone who felt they were in a position to defend the actions of the church in this case.



(Edited by DL-44 on 04-13-2005 04:05)

Well the apologists are certainly here.

It boggles the mind that someone can be such a zealot and a fundamenalist as to even talk about 'forgiving' child rape!

Certainly every priest and the cathoilics aren't the only one with the problem, is not a pedophile.

But the circle of responsibility expands with every one of them who knows about a predatory priest and either protects or fails to report him.

The circle of responsibility expands when the people at the top of the organzation, religious or otherwise, treat the matter as inconesquential.

Everyone who aids and abets a criminal is equally culpable.

By not de-frocking and having criminal charges brought against the offending priests and by promoting and rewarding Law, the Vatican delared it's total non-interest in the victims of this long-standing and continuing abuse.

Perhaps it is only the pedophiles who get to rise to the top and that is why they don't give a damn?

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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Yes. I would leave my

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etc.

Thank bloody god for memory polymers.
My rubber jaw hit the floor so hard my lips are just now assuming something near their original fisog x-y's'. For a time there I didn't think they were ever coming back! =)

Jade, your statements and thought process here are ASTONISHING!!! Clearly you have no concept... not an inkling... no idea of what you have said... on several fronts. Here's one.

This 'Forgivness' business.
You clearly and unabashedly illustrate far better than any 'heathen'could, that this 'get out of jail FREE' card is absurdity defined. It's almost a god-send.' and I thank you. =)

last time i checked, 'justice' was a concept that featured highly in the bible, too.

It's...I don't know where to start, after reading all Jades remarks.

Jade, I take it that you are serious in your remarks.

I also take it, that your view is a mainstream view, of most catholics?

Are there any other catholics that disagree with Jade's views here? I would ask you to speak up now, please.

My people were right about the Chruch. It is a bad thing. As long as those who support the Church think like Jade, it will never be anything other than bad.

Serial Pedophiles cannot be cured. At least, all evidence thereof is in the contrary. Worse, pedophilia perpetuates itself - as those who are preyed upon, often become those that prey on others, later. So something very negative is being perpetuated by the Catholic Church.

I am shocked, disgusted, and just plain...relieved, that I am not a catholic.

Btw Jade - my wife thinks your fucking nuts. She says she'd never, ever let such a man anywhere near our children. And neither would I.

(Edited by WebShaman on 04-13-2005 06:42)

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last time i checked, 'justice' was a concept that featured highly in the bible, too.

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Last time I checked " Justice is for God alone"
Even my justice. Call me what you will, slander me if you want.
No. Don't you guys know any Catholics. The Catholics faith dictates we depend on priest as our spiritual fathers, confessors, advisors. We cannot separate them from the faith. So how can we not trust priest?
We must. You can see from the 2 to 4 million who came from all over the world for the funeral for the pope, that they still believe in the faith. Because its not the church that fails them, its humans.

But we must forgive and life goes on:

Matthew 6

14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We have to forgive to be forgiven.

Mark 11

25. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

26. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Without forgiveness there is no salvation, what holds us up is our sin, and what we need is forgiveness of sin.

We sin, Satan accuses, we ask forgiveness, Jesus stands in for us and profess the Blood, we are forgiven, God forgets and the next case comes up. But when we bring the sin up again, or just won?t let go of it for what ever reason,. this gives Satan a chance to accuse. But we do not ask forgiveness again, so Satan is able to get through our armor and give us hell. At least until we remember to ask for forgiveness, repent, or just pray the Lord?s Prayer and except our forgiveness.

If we truly believe the word of God we except our forgiveness and forget it. If you except your forgiveness and don?t hold on to the sin, but forget it, then you are cleansed, you are new, health and prosperity will come your way. The only other area of forgiveness that holds us up is forgiving someone else.

This is almost as hard as forgiving self. Let?s say a woman?s 3 year old is raped, and killed, and she does not forgive the person, what happens? Two things first she has given Satan a wide birth in her life and second it will eat at her until she is nothing but an empty shell.

What happens if she forgives the person?

First Satan has no way to get in to mess with her, and second God will help her over come.

Why should we forgive?

Because mankind was created in God?s image, meaning what we are, not our flesh, but our spirit. And since God is not evil, neither are we, but we do allow evil spirits and demons to enter and they do things that appears to be us doing them. But it is not our true selves. So we should forgive the sinner and love them while hating the sin and evil. You can hate, as long as it is directed towards evil and sin and not towards people.

The woman above if she would forgive would be forgiving the person, not the sin. And this would do more to help her. And if we truly believe in God, we believe in the next life. And if we believe in the next life, then there is no death, there is only a passing from this less than perfect world to perfection. Where we will meet those loved ones that left before us. It is only a temporary separation. In the measurement of time compared to eternity, it would be but a blinking of an eye.

So the true loss would be if the woman did not forgive, and allowed it to eat her up to the point of falling away and rejecting God. Because then she never would see her child again. And that is true grief, grief is only of a loss, and if you will see each other again, then there is no loss, just a short separation. How do you grow and allow this type of forgiveness to be in your life;

How often should we forgive?

Matthew:
18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. What is the only unforgiveable sin? and why?

Matthew:
12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


Why? Because the only way to blasphemy the Holy Ghost is not to be of the Holy Ghost. And the only way to be forgiven is of the Holy Ghost, so if you are not of the Holy Ghost, you can not be forgiven.
So I say unto you now, forgive all unto all and accept your forgiveness.
Don't allow Satan another victory by consuming you with bitterness that comes from unforgiveness.

jesus, save me from your followers.

If mary could have forseen how her name is being used today she would have spontaneously aborted.

The truly scary aspect of poor jade's mindless maunderings and immutable faith is that she is not alone either in pathetic catholicism or many of the other rabid faiths which infect the world, but parts of the US in particular. One of the adherants to such a faith is currently the president.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

^ Great. Sounds good.

And when he is done with your kids, are you then going to turn around, and forgive him again?

I don't actually recall this particular person asking for forgiveness, nor the Pope announcing that this person (or the others involved) were forgiven. Can you supply this information, please?

He (and they) certainly have not begged for forgiveness, nor attempted to right the wrongs they did (atonement) to the victims that I am aware of. Maybe you have some information on that, as well?

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

I don't recall anything which might be contrued as an apology emanating from the vatican.

Nor a request for forgiveness. Which, in any event, would be a request for the unforgivable.

It is people like jade who allow such abuses to perpetuate through their willfull and mindless blindness.

I have another of her ilk on another forum who is every bit ignorant and he's here in Canada. The infection is widely spread.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Yes. He apolozized long ago. http://www.rcab.org/Pilot/2002/ps021108/Forgiveness.html

And so did the holy father Pope John Paul.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2000/editorial.asp

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/23/pope.scandal/

(Edited by jade on 04-13-2005 17:28)

ok, that's a start.

But it still doesn't respond to this -

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But tell me how forgiving someone equates to allowing them to retain the office that allowed them to commit the crimes in teh first place?

Let's give the whole situation the big rosy benefit of the doubt, and say that cardinal law is forgiven for his horrible horrible sin.

That has absolutely nothing to do with his gross inability to properly perform his duties.
Can anyone explain why it should mean that, in rational terms?

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Nowhere in those links, does the Pope apologize specifically for the Pedophilia of the Church.

Although they do make it crystal clear, that he was aware of it going on in the Church.

Yes. He has Webshaman. I remember even seeing it on the news.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/Archive/200204/FOR20020423g.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/11/23/MN172663.DTL

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=5979

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That has absolutely nothing to do with his gross inability to properly perform his duties.
Can anyone explain why it should mean that, in rational terms?
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What does this mean?? He is not over any diocese. His duties now are more administrative in the Vatican. He does not perform his prior duties.

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Btw Jade - my wife thinks your fucking nuts. She says she'd never, ever let such a man anywhere near our children. And neither would I.

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Web
So would you let a family male friend, brother, uncle, cousin, be alone with your son/daughter for a long length of time. Like lets say take him/her to the movies alone? Would you trust them 100 %.

Certainly not if they had been involved in something like Pedophilia!

I would never invite a weasel into a henhouse. I have namely seen what happens, when one gets in.

Well for sure they will not let you know they are pedophiles. Thats the point. You don't know.

jade: Don't make yourself look more stupid than you are.

We all know that some, many, too much, priests have had pedophilic behaviors and were covered by their hierarchy. Actually if the pedophilic priests were not covered by their superiors, their affairs would be similar to the other pedophilic affairs, but this perverted behavior have been covered for years by some authorities of the Church. This is what makes them even more disgusting and cast the doubt on the others priests and religious authorities.



(Edited by poi on 04-13-2005 23:17)

But we do know about these cases! It is not an unknown!

You have to take risks, there is trust involved in anything. But when you betray that trust you have to earn it back, and for some offenses you may never ever regain that trust. You might be forgiven in the eyes of god, but that doesn't mean that you have to trust in the individual. Trust and forgiveness are very different things.

If you are going to have your trust, have your trust in your god, but don't think that the same level of trust you can have in your god can be given to people no matter who or what occupation they have. Doing that is just foolish.

Dan @ Code Town

Yes. Its true the negligence on behalf of the church superiors. They are guilty.

Also, lets not rule out that pedophilia is all over cyberspace. And no one is seriously doing anything to stop it. You can download sites of little naked boys and girls in two minutes. No one seems appalled by this enough to make an national outcry. You can even download young girl teens girls pics in the public library. Where is the justice.