Topic awaiting preservation: The existence of God.... (Page 4 of 5)

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DL-44 said:

I must say that I am a little intrigued that this is an issue that 'hit you hard' in your 20's...it clearly illustrates the difference in our views in general.Everything dies.

~shrug~

Accepting that from the start saves a lot of grief later on, I'd say

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This thread has gone so far, I nearly forgot about this bit way back up there. I guess this one needs a bit more explaining I've been a believer since childhood and I was baptized when I was 10 years old. I always knew intellectually what my faith taught and such, but when you're a kid you really do have a sense of immortality and death seems far far away. (at least when you grow up in the conditions I did)

There came a point after I had finished school and gone out into the work force and was living on my own that I started thinking about how all the things I was working on would just fade away someday. All the *things* I was placing my time and efforts into would become dust and it was depressing. The book of Ecclesiastes is a great one to read regarding this by the way. The verses about how Christ promised that we would not perish but actually live forever with him in glory started *feeling* much much more relevant to me even though I had always knew about them. It started making sense in a real way as opposed to a book smart way. I hope that helps explain that better.

DL-44, I hear you saying that we should accept the distasteful reality of death. Is that right? If so, I can appreciate that and I have done so. But what I was trying to pinpoint was that it is, at its very root, distasteful. Why is that? Why doesn't the idea of dying and fading into nothing give us the same feeling as say watching your child being born? Do you see what I'm driving at or am I losing you on this?

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Bugimus: I'm not advocating to outlaw religion for children, far from it. I'm advocating for not infringing the right of the children to choose wisely their cult. Indeed the freedom of religion is a fundamental right for everyone. Why should the case of children be an exception ? On contrary children are more vulnerables/easily influenced so respecting their rights is even more important. Actually regarding that the parents should be careful that their children do not embrace too avidly a cult, but go at their own pace and realize what they are doing. I'm aware a hell lot of parents instil their religion into their children but again this is not a reason to turn the head.

My exact phrase is :

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Sure, when the child grows older it can choose, but the evil is already done. In the facts most are locked forever as extremely little people know they can cancel their baptem and therefore be removed of the registers of the churches.

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The meaning is not exactly the same as what the first words suggest.


jade:

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We do a lot of preventative maintenance on our bodies from an early age. Why not the soul as well?

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Probably because not washing one's teeth is harmful while not believing is not.



(Edited by poi on 03-09-2005 17:41)

The child who becomes an adult has the responsibility for his/her own path. The idea that they are "locked in" to a forced way of thinking is absurd. Every human being has free will to choose their own path and no other human being can touch that and even God chooses not to.

I think you're missing the fact that *every* child is indoctrinated by those who raise it *without* exception.

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I don't have any particular problem with teaching children about faith so long as the choice to follow any one particular faith is their's alone. Make a point of introducing them to all kinds of faith and teach them the reasons WHY you chose to follow the one you did. I find it painfully obvious that without want or interest the young do not yearn for understanding or commitment. I know that sentiment was reflected in my younger years as it was in many peoples childhoods.

I also find it interesting that, for those people who have had absolutely no chance to convert or believe in christianity because they are never introduced to it, there is no redemption. No punishment either mind you, but no reward for a life lived well. Why is that? Becuase they were never able to choose to follow Christianty in lieu of another faith or no faith. So choice matters in that instance. Wouldn't that also be applicable to those who have only followed one religion because they never had the choice to follow another? Is that true faith or generational regurigitation through the ages? Is there a "thinning" of faith as the virtues of the family are pushed onto the children and never truly understood or believed by the children? In the absence of choice is there any true commitment to the faith?

In regards to baptism. I was baptised into the catholic church. In point of fact I was also confirmed into the catholic church. I am not catholic. Niether of those ceremonies hurt me or obligated me in any way to remain catholic. What it did do is obligate my parents and god parents to teach me about only one faith to the exclusion of others. I find that to be of extreme disservice to myself, not to mention the church. True faith of those who choose to follow the church of their own wont will always outweigh the faith of the automoton who goes to church because they don't know what else they can do. Will I baptise my children? To be honest... I don't know. Probably not. But only because I find religion a farce. I will certainly teach my children to believe and follow God, but never a church. Feel free to follow Man... I choose to follow only God.

GD

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Probably because not washing one's teeth is harmful while not believing is not.

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While that is an opinion that I agree with, it is still only an opinion.

Trying to make things like the baptism of a child an issue of the child's rights is beyond silly, as I said earlier, it is actually totally insane.

Yes, a person should be able to choose.

They should be able to choose their religion. They should be able to choose the style of clothing they wear, the style of music they listen to, the field of study they wish to pursue, whether or not ot be sexually active, or to do drugs, and many other things.

But to leave the child uninstructed in such matters, and completely open to their own choice, is *totally* irresponisble and defeats the purpose of having parents in the first place.

Let me reiterate: parents by necessity determine the course on which a child begins, and builds upon that throughtou their lifetime. If that includes religion, so be it. It is not a matter of the child's rights, it is a matter of the parent's obligation. You can't jsut leave a kid without instruction, and hope someday down the road the pick the right path.

Of course the "right" path is completely a matter of opinion, and a christian or a jew or a muslim has every right to teach these things to their child, in the same way that I have the right to restrict the type of clothing my daughter wears, in the same way that I explain the questions she comes to me with about life in *my* way, therefore "forcing" my views on her just like a christian would in the same situation.

{{edit -
to expand slightly:
no matter what religious background you are from, when you have a family you establish traditions of a variety of kinds. When you do so, you also establish *reasons* for them. According to your approach, doing so is "forcing" views on the child, and violating their rights.
That's insane.



Though I've obviously managed to say plenty here...I'm really a t a bit of a loss on this. It is just absolutely not a matter of the child's rights in such a case.

It's about parental obligation.



(Edited by DL-44 on 03-09-2005 18:34)

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So you believe early todlers shouldn't get instruction on faith at a very early age at all?

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Jade, I have nothing in principle against a mother or father attempting to explain things to their child, especially when it comes to one's faith or beliefs. But there is a difference in presenting ones beliefs and explainations for things to a child, and actual indoctrination and rituals of indoctrination. My people were the brunt of such indoctrination programs from Xians. Ugly stuff, IMHO.

Actually going through rituals apparently only designed to indoctrinate does seem to go to far, IMHO. I was (and I still am) outraged that my daughter has been baptized against my will.

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I mean we know washing our teeth at a very early age keep are teeth in good shape to carry us to our old age. We do a lot of preventative maintenance on our bodies from an early age. Why not the soul as well?

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Because there is no proof that the soul is being maintained, as there is with brushing your teeth properly.

Your daughter was baptized against your will? Can you please explain how that happened?

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GD

Its not as if people in this century live in a taped in cardboard box. Most know the ways of the world and have freedom to choose in this age of technology. You say "don't know, what else they can do" as if they have been brainwashed and are stuck in an organized religion against their will. In this century through the many different forms on communicative technology you can tap into all religions and be aware of what their belief systems are and if they could be for you. You think once a person is baptized into a faith they can never leave it. This is not true. Many leave and never come back. Some leave and follow their own path. Some return after a long hiatus. No one is handcuffed in any kind of church building. They are free to go about. Its like not giving religious people any credit in that they have the common sense or wisdom to make choices for themselves is what I am gathering from you post.

It is in the mindset of most people of faith that the soul as Bugs pointed out earlier needs spiritual food as the body needs food to survive in this world. Just that we believe the spiritual food gives us everlasting life beyond death. Its like saying to your child in teaching them about life we say, " Don't go near the fire or you might get burned" Or, " when you cross the street look both ways, because if you don't a car can kill you or hurt you" We feel the same ways in faith. We teach them, if you don't follow the way of Christ, they can be lost forever and because we love and are their caretakers we are responsible for revealing the message of Christ, because we are bound by baptism to do so.

Teaching your child at very early age about good and evil is necessary or they will make the wrong choices. They must form a conscience from somewhere. In throwing out all these different religions at them growing up how can you accomplish this? Would you take them to synagogue one week, to a temple the next, a catholic the next, then a Baptist church, then Muslim? This would be damaging instead of helping them I feel.

DL-44: I've never heard about someone who felt bad because he/she did not believe. On the other hand not washing your teeth really is harmful.

Did I say that parents should not inform their children that some people believe in a superior being in various ways and through various rituals ? No.
There's a lot of occasions to talk about religions to children.

Baptizing a child without its wise approval is far beyond the simple and normal fact of informing it about the religions. It's involving and pushing it into a religion. That practice is so common that it makes me sound extreme when I say it is an infrigement of the freedom of cult of the children, but the fact remain : zillions of children are baptized each year without their approval.

Most atheists I know are resigned and do not even question the fact that their parents did not asked their opinion to baptize them. THAT is insane.

Bugs, I am divorced and in Germany, where as a man I have little rights when it comes to the raising of my child, my daughter. My ex-wife decided to baptize my daughter, and there was nothing I could do about it.

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Teaching your child at very early age about good and evil is necessary or they will make the wrong choices.

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That I disagree with. Good and evil just do not exist. Show this to me, prove that they do exist. Teaching a child right and wrong ways of doing things is something different than good and evil, IMHO.

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parents by necessity determine the course on which a child begins, and builds upon that throughtou their lifetime.

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I agree with this, because it is true.

But there are things, that we deem not within the rights of parents to decide - and I do think that such steps like indoctrination rituals should be reserved for adulthood like most others are - driving, voting, drinking, and being able to join the military, for example.

Now, I'm not suggesting some kind of law - just a sense of responsibility and a sense of what is appropriate.

Oh. Well, that has nothing at all to do with the church, WS. Your situation is about a disagreement between you and your ex-wife in raising your daughter. For a second there I thought you were saying the government mandated baptism or some such thing. So if you and your wife agreed on not having her baptized, then that would have been that... correct?

And just for the record, I don't think baptizing children is a valid xian ritual. This is an area where jade and I would disagree. I believe baptism only applies to children who are at an age to request it and understand its purpose.

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Bugimus:

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I believe baptism only applies to children who are at an age to request it and understand its purpose.

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God bless you!

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inform their children that some people believe in a superior being in various ways and through various rituals ?

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I'm not talking about providing an eduaction of other* people's religions.

If a parent has religious convictions, there is absolutely no good reason not to impart them to their child.

The child's "consent" is irrelevant, the same way it is in regard to any other aspect of the family lifestyle.

You are over reacting to a incredible degree by making this an issue of rights.

In WS' case, things are more complicated. You have conflicting views of the parents. Totally diferent issue.

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God bless you!

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Poi


ITs good to see a blessing coming from you. I misunderstood you I guess. I thought you were a non-beliver. Is this blessing sincere

Jade -

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Most know the ways of the world and have freedom to choose in this age of technology. You say "don't know, what else they can do" as if they have been brainwashed and are stuck in an organized religion against their will.

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You're right, I do. It is the encouragement of one religion in their youth and an active discouragement of researching other religions of which I speak. Will you teach your children the ways of other religions and their practices and reasons for doing things. The Gods other religions follow and then express to them that you don't mind if they follow those religions or will you tell them of other religions and then tell them that's not what they and the rest of their family follow and that their souls will be lost forever and that the rest of their family will not approve of what they are doing? While the second case is most likely and not "wrong" (according to your beliefs) it certainly isn't an objective place for a child to start from. It is an extremely powerful impression that most will not be willing or able to overcome.

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You think once a person is baptized into a faith they can never leave it. This is not true. Many leave and never come back. Some leave and follow their own path.

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No, I do not and I stated as much. Please read what I wrote.

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Its like not giving religious people any credit in that they have the common sense or wisdom to make choices for themselves is what I am gathering from you post.

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Good, that's basically what I said to a certain extent. Religious people have plenty of common sense and wisdom to draw on and are perfectly capable of making choices for themselves. Unfortunately they try to make those choices for others as well. If Xianity is the be all end all of religion is should be the obvious choice for all those who search for a religion to follow. Obviously, this is not the case. Whether or not the religious can choose things for themselves or not isn't my issue here however. It's that they are taking their cues from a man-made institution or if you prefer; a God made institution run by man. I can't have faith in such a thing. It is akin to having faith in government. I have faith in basic human decency that people hired to do what is best for me will do so. I cannot have faith in an institution. It is the people I have faith in. In the case of religion or Theology (as I prefer). There are no people, only God. I have faith in God (by God, you must understand, I mean all Gods of all faiths. God just seems to be the term you and most are familiar with.) not in the people who represent God. I don't judge you for what religion you believe. I judge you by how you live your life. What religion you believe in is unimportant.

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It?s like saying to your child in teaching them about life we say, " Don't go near the fire or you might get burned" Or, " when you cross the street look both ways, because if you don't a car can kill you or hurt you" We feel the same ways in faith. We teach them, if you don't follow the way of Christ, they can be lost forever and because we love and are their caretakers we are responsible for revealing the message of Christ, because we are bound by baptism to do so.

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The first two examples are fact. The last example is opinion. Again, regardless of that, it does not give children a good basis for challenging the faith they have been given by starting them off with fear of being lost for eternity to those who love them most. Teaching of that sort is derived from a church mentality that, "Our religion is the best and only true religion, all others lead to certain doom". Well, to be honest, that is your opinion and you should teach your children that. But you should also teach them that other religions say the same exact thing. After which you should explain to them exactly why you chose to follow the religion you chose to follow. Then let them choose. Besides that, Teaching your children religion is completely different from teaching them about Christ and God. If you taught from a purely Christ driven mentality I think you would find that it doesn't much matter which mainstream Christ believing religion you are a member of the underlying belief holds true and it is THAT choice that they are actually being denied.

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Teaching your child at very early age about good and evil is necessary or they will make the wrong choices. They must form a conscience from somewhere. In throwing out all these different religions at them growing up how can you accomplish this? Would you take them to synagogue one week, to a temple the next, a catholic the next, then a Baptist church, then Muslim? This would be damaging instead of helping them I feel.

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As I am certain you would. I however am not teaching from a religious point of view. I am teaching from a point of view in which all Gods are the same God and that religion is of no consequence. I will teach them about all religions and their practices and world viewpoints and I will explain to them why I don't follow a religion and yet believe in God. I am not going to teach my child something that points them in the direction of bigotry. That is not what I want the world to be and that is not the world I want my child(ren) to live in. My child(ren) will be taught the difference between tolerance and equality to the exclusion of those people/institutions that promote neither.

GD

(Edited by GrythusDraconis on 03-09-2005 20:38)

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As I am certain you would. I however am not teaching from a religious point of view. I am teaching from a point of view in which all Gods are the same God and that religion is of no consequence. I will teach them about all religions and their practices and world viewpoints and I will explain to them why I don't follow a religion and yet believe in God. I am not going to teach my child something that points them in the direction of bigotry. That is not what I want the world to be and that is not the world I want my child(ren) to live in. My child(ren) will be taught the difference between tolerance and equality to the exclusion of those people/institutions that promote neither.

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Ok. I respect your opinion and how you want to raise your children, so shouldn't you respect other ways as well. Some may think you are wrong to do this, and for you it is the right way to go. So why are you so concerned with the way a person should bring up children if it does no harm to yours? Aren't you thinking the same way you accuse christians. In the I am right, they are wrong attitude you accuse them of. Parents by rights can bring up their children how they see fit in their own ideologies. Why should you pry into either household of faith? Christians teach tolerance and are against bigtory too. Are you accquainted with very many christians?

(Edited by jade on 03-09-2005 21:09)

jade: It's a mistery to nobody than I'm an atheist. My "God bless you!" remark toward Bugimus was like a 2 blades sword. It's an humoristic stroke in regard of my religious conviction, AND a sincere approval of his point of view about the baptem.

DL-44: I'm talking about providing an education of religions. It does not exclude the religious conviction of the parents themselves.
I don't see why the child's conscent should be considered irrelevant. The baptem is a personnal commitment and should not be imposed.

My claim about the infrigement of rights is based on confrontation of the facts and the laws/constitution. The situation have gone for long that it seems natural. The baptem is not an act void of sense and conscequences.

Don't worry, I'm lucid about my weigh on the society. I won't fight against windmills. And as I said in other occasions, I bark more than I bite

I knew it wasn't for me poi

Yes, actually I am aquainted with many Christians. That doesn't keep me from finding it difficult to believe that people and/or institutions of Xianity can promote tolerance and denounce bigotry while promoting only their own religion and denouncing all others (including those under the same umbrella). Is that not the definition of Bigotry?

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Aren't you thinking the same way you accuse christians. In the I am right, they are wrong attitude you accuse them of.

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No, I am not. My assumption is that there is no "right". The only thing religion has an impact on is how it helps or hinders our interactions with other people. In the case of how you've described teaching religion to your children, it seems to me that religion is helping you remove choice of religion from your children. You haven't rebutted my previous statements about selectively teaching your children so I assume you are in agreement with them.

Perhaps it would make more sense were I to add that, if my child(ren) CHOOSE to follow the path of religion rather than what I believe I will not stand in their way, denounce them for their choice or any other such thing. I'm not going to to dissuade them from something that helps them get along with other people. If believing as I do makes them unhappy and unable to relate to other people it becomes my responsibilty if my child(ren) do anything admonishable because of that. I don't care what they choose. I would prefer that they believe as I do. I do not require it of them. I will teach them everything I can and explain the reasons for my choice. They will, by default, gain knowledge of how that choice impacts my life. I'm not going to teach what I have chosen as the only, nor the better choice of all I present. You can only teach when there is a correct and incorrect solution, everything else is guidance. When there is no "wrong" answer how do you PRESUME to correct them when they want something other than what you have taught them? One other thing to note is that the issue of deity is not going to be brought up by me. They will ask when want to learn about it. I'm not going to be "throwing these religions out" at them. As I stated before. Until they are interested they will not gain any real knowledge.

GD

(Edited by GrythusDraconis on 03-09-2005 22:13)

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Well, that has nothing at all to do with the church, WS. Your situation is about a disagreement between you and your ex-wife in raising your daughter. For a second there I thought you were saying the government mandated baptism or some such thing. So if you and your wife agreed on not having her baptized, then that would have been that... correct?

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I am aware that it has nothing to do with the church forcing something on my child against my ex-wife's will - but it is against mine (and quite frankly, they didn't care, even when I approached the priest of the parish there about it - he just gave me some bullsh*t about her "immortal soul" and since I could not produce a court order opposing the baptism, went ahead with it). The church apparently wasn't interested in what I wanted for my daughter - I do have joint rights (I secured this under the law before a judge in a court of law - it "only" took me four years of constant fighting to accomplish this). It, however was not possible to get a court order to stop the proceedings in time and yes, I feel violated about that. Obtaining some sort of "reversal", or writ stating that I was right would be pointless after the fact, wouldn't it?

I wish to be very clear on this particular issue here - my lawfully granted rights and my will as a parent were violated by the church (and by my ex-wife) against my will knowingly.

As far as I know, the German government does not mandate baptism - but it does teach Xistian religion in the public schools (there is now a big fuss about including Islam into this program)..

Had my ex-wife and I come to an agreement against my daughter being baptised, then that would have been that, yes.

I am not sure how commonplace my example is. I do know that the divorce rate in most western countries has exploded in modern times. In any regards, I found the situation very unpleasant. Don't get me started on schooling issues - those are still a sore point that molder in a dark corner of my psych. There is nothing like watching your child be slowly programmed by someone else, and you are powerless to do anything about it, and powerless to affect it much (I get 4 days a month with my child, out of 30). I would not wish that on anyone.

GD, thanks for the insights. You're sharing some good stuff with us in your posts. Your points are clear and detailed. I would like to respond to this one:

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GrythusDraconis said:

It is the encouragement of one religion in their youth and an active
discouragement of researching other religions of which I speak. Will you teach
your children the ways of other religions and their practices and reasons for
doing things. The Gods other religions follow and then express to them that you
don't mind if they follow those religions or will you tell them of other
religions and then tell them that's not what they and the rest of their family
follow and that their souls will be lost forever and that the rest of their
family will not approve of what they are doing? While the second case is most
likely and not "wrong" (according to your beliefs) it certainly isn't an
objective place for a child to start from. It is an extremely powerful
impression that most will not be willing or able to overcome.

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I will teach my children about other religions openly and with as much accuracy as I possibly can. Just as I want them to be well versed in science and literature, I want them very knowledgeable about the world's religions.

But if I taught them that I didn't mind them following any religion, wouldn't that be tad amount to telling them religion was irrelevant? So the logical conclusion they would draw from my position would be that I was wasting my time following one of them. It would place me in a rather ridiculous position I should think. Rather, I will teach them that the religion I chose was, to the best of my ability, the correct one and a worthwhile one to follow. Because if I didn't beleive that to be true, there would be no good reason to practice it in the first place.

If they chose to follow another religion then they are most certainly free to do so but I will not lie to them by telling them it's perfectly fine. The idea of impressing my religion upon them is actually precisely the idea as I hold these concepts to be true:

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Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.
--Proverbs 22:6

Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
--Ephesians 6:4

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GrythusDraconis said:

I'm not going to teach what I have chosen as the only, nor the better choice of
all I present.

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Will this effectively tell your kids that religion is pointless? And isn't that exactly your view? So won't you really be teaching them your way, if not explicitly, then by example?

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Bugimus:

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But if I taught them that I didn't mind them following any religion, wouldn't that be tad amount to telling them religion was irrelevant?

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I doubt it. IMHO the impact of saying your children you don't mind which religion they'll follow is equivalent to that of telling them you don't mind which profession they'll do. It says that you have confidence in them and whatever they choose/do you'll love them and respect their choice.

They should be able to understand that everybody has its own reason to believe or not in this or that religion. Religious beliefs are personnals.

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that my children will always be loved by me and that their right to choose their own religion will be respected. I don't think anything I said above would contradict that.

I believe children learn far more from how their parents live their lives than by what their parents say. So if the parents don't practice a religion honestly and fervently, the children will see that it really wasn't important enough to the parents in the first place. This is my opinion.

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That is my exact view also Bugs. The children will for the most part emulate the acts of their parents as important role models in their lifetime more than any other persons they come across. The core of belief of what the household practices makes the most impact on a child. Children must have roots as an identifier and this is relating to faith matters also.
So "faith iin God is a good thing"

(Edited by jade on 03-09-2005 23:33)

I did not questioned your love and respect of your children. My post was purely about your interrogation about the feeling of irrelevancy of the religion that could leave an unconditionnal freedom of religion on the children.

To go on second paragraph of your last post. We've all made some choices without relying on what our parents did or thought. I'm pretty sure some children of atheists have found God.



(Edited by poi on 03-09-2005 23:31)

Yes. As I mentioned earlier here or another thread, by default they will learn my choice and how it affects my life. I'm pretty sure that would be my viewpoint even if I did follow a particular religion. It isn't so much a choice of what religion to follow or not follow. It is freedom to choose the path that lets you... shine, for lack of a better term. Just because religion doesn't work for me doesn't mean that it won't be fitting for one of my children. It may well be that they want something more structured than I do or want to follow an amalgamation of ideas from many religions. The specifics of the religion are irrelevant because the underlying theme of almost every religion is the same. "Get along with each other."

I am not trying to invalidate what you would and should, teach your children, nor dictate what that should be, but I see it as being far more servicable to the church and humankind for everyone to be at ease with themselves and their relationship with God and each other. With religions at each others throats I don't see that as being possible. Your beliefs tell you to teach your children a specific way. Good. Just don't make teaching that belief the last thing they listen too. I believe I have far more important things to teach my children then religion. Their relationship with God is of their own devising and follows the path that they dictate. I'm just here to make the introductions.

The underlying difference between our viewpoints is you believe religion is important and I do not. It makes it almost impossible to compare our situations.

The statements I make have to be placed in a certain context. You will teach your children what you know and what you believe and you want them to follow what you believe. If they choose NOT to follow what you believe you will be dissappointed at the least I should think.. but you won't dissassociate yourself from them I would imagine. I also hope you wouldn't hound them about it continuously either. What you describe to me above is exactly what I mean with my previous posts. Teach them all religions, explain your choice. They will decide based on how you taught them and who you are and what they have learned. Whether you state that you are fine if they follow some other religion then yours or not, they will believe that you won't renounce them if they find something they feel suits them better. I know this and I'm not related and only know you via the web. They will choose anyway.

What would you do if they were truly unhappy with Xianity? So unhappy it was a detriment to how they got along with other people but they stayed with that belief because of your beliefs about it? (Keep in mind I find it hard to believe you could raise someone who didn't get along with everyone ) I just find that a heartbreaking situation. If they believe in God and Christ... or even just God and it makes them get along with people and live well and all they don't need is the stand up, sit down, sing this song or whatever the particulars of your faith are... does it matter so much? Should someone stay in a religion that causes them strife because it is the "Right" one? We already know that that determination is impossible without some grand intervention. Which brings up the point of Religion is pointless. Relgion is the mental masturbation of what someone would LIKE things to be like. You know... there are some religions that explain very well what I would like things to be like. You want to know something else. I followed them for many years. After a while I realized that all I was doing was finding what I liked and following what was closest. To quote myself:

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Well that's just damn stupid.

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I now live my life toward making what you would call heaven happen here on earth. Right HERE where it matters the most.

My.. my... I uh... kinda went off there. I really hope I answered what you were asking in that mess I made up there. If I didn't... well... ask again and I'll... I'll sift better.

GD

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So won't you really be teaching them your way, if not explicitly, then by example?

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And that's the bottom line.

Whether the view you impart are religious in nature, or anti religious, you are still imparting your view on your child.

Whether by action, or by lack of action. Like the old saying 'by not choosing, you have still chosen'

Again let me say that the issue WS speaks of and the issue Poi speaks of are drastically different.

A parent *must* choose what type of life a child will lead.

Eventually, the child will have grown, and during that process make decisions for themselves. But the parent must set them on what they percieve as the right track.

It is an OBLIGATION to do so. It is not a matter of children's "rights" in any way shape or form. Period.

To suggest that it is is a gross misunderstanding of ethics and law.

DL-44: I agree with you that the parents must raise their children in what they perceive as the right track. But they shouldn't let the freedom of choice of their children aside.

I know my claim about the importance of children's right to choose their religion themselves might sound extreme to some people. In essence it means that to me it's wrong to raise children within a single system of belief. Actually GrythusDraconis expressed that way better than me.

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I know my claim about the importance of children's right to choose their religion themselves might sound extreme to some people. In essence it means that to me it's wrong to raise children within a single system of belief. Actually GrythusDraconis expressed that way better than me.

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Children cannot choose their own religion. What would be your advice on how they would make a choice? To belong to a sect requires much dedication, wisdom and understanting of the faiths principles. By study, thought and practice we acquire the discipline. How can we think children will able to choose as a very young child or preteen in the fundamentals. Wisdom in all things comes from the experience of life and faith instructs us how to apply faith principles to daily living. One can only achieve this if it is learned. If the parents are not religious, or practicing in any form of organized religion there will be no structure or foundation for the child to build on. How can we expect our children to choose if we ourselves cannot choose? We do a tragic injustice to our own offspring in not providing a source or channel in which the child can communiate with what calls him to reason in his quest to wonder why they exist in this world. We all as adult humans still have this undeniable quest to find truth. How will you be able to direct them as atheist or lacking in a faith to understand this desire? What will you tell them when they find out they are going to die and start to fear this as a child and start to cry. Are you going to tell them " When you grow up, you can form your own opinion on life & death and choose how you want to believe because I did and I have been happy up to this point as your daddy or mommy." I feel this is wrong and could give a child so many insecurities. Children are so delicate, fagile, impressionable and gullible. They believe everything you tell them. They do because you do. They love because you love. And they will hate when you hate because most bigotry starts in the home and they imitate you. So to have them choose coming from a Godless home doesn't make any sense or give them a chance. Children usually end up having the degee of faith the parents have. If it was lacking, then they will lack in faith until or if they are born again .

(Edited by jade on 03-10-2005 03:38)

jade: Come on, an adult can well learn the faith principles.

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How can we expect our children to choose if we ourselves cannot choose?

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As DL-44 reminded : 'by not choosing, you have still chosen'

Children do not question the ins and outs of mankind every day. Usually they care more about playing footbal, video games, climbing in trees, ... When they have a question, parents should try to anwser in words the child understand and shouldn't go too in depth. I mean if the answer given already fulfills the curiosity of child, there's no need to elaborate further on a subject that goes above its head ( and above the head of many adults too ). Such task does not seem out of reach for an atheist or believing parent.

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Children usually ending having the the degee of faith taught at home. If it was lacking, then they will lack in faith unitl of if they are born again.

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You answer to your fear yourself. People not raised in religion can be born again. Anyway, regardless of your convictions, if an atheist feels good that way and makes no harm to others is it such a bad thing ? Does he/she absolutely have to adhere to a cult to find grace to the eyes of the believers ?

One CAN raise kids without forcing one's own views upon them. My daughter is a case in point, as she grew older and started asking questions about religion I was careful to give her unbiased responses and encourage as I wanted her to make her own choice when she was old enough. As it happened she too is an aetheist, but not from input from me. Her maternal grandparents are such miserable, bible-thumping, intolerant individuals, they drove her as far from religion as she could get.

I admit I am pleased.

She too was baptized against my will...they were baby-sitting one day and just got it done. The good news is, it has not hurt her any.

Children should not be subjected to unbalanced religious information at all. They should, if they must, be taught about all religious faiths and Aetheism and then be under no pressure to choose any of them.

Don't hold your breath, that will indeed be the day the lion lies with the lamb.

The religiouis are terrified if they don't indoctrinate their young they may find a mind of their own. Many do anyway. Many grow up with the religious handicap.

Parents may not know this is why they inculcate their children thus, that is because they have been successfully brainwashed by their parents or church or both.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Children should not be subjected to unbalanced religious information at all. They should, if they must, be taught about all religious faiths and Aetheism and then be under no pressure to choose any of them.

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And that is a very logical.

*If* you are an atheist.

It can as well be said that a child should be raised with no 'unbalanced' view of right or worng - they should choose themesleves, or no one view on anything else. Just throw them out there and let them choose everything themselves...

Yes, you want you rchild to be able to choose things for themselves. But until they reach an age where they can do that, it is your job as a parent to influence them in such a way that they will make (what is, in YOUR view) good choices.

It is absolutely absurd to think that your view, as an atheist, has not been influential on your daughter. It is absurd to think that you have not pushed your views on her in one way or another. Perhaps yo didn't say "I'm an atheist, and you will be too", but it doesn't take such explicit things to pass on your views.

And again, you must realize - however much you or I may disagree with christian views, if a parent is convinced that not living the right way will condem their child to hell for eternity, they *must* act accordingly. There isn't room for a debate about whether they are right or wrong in their religious belief.

Just to give an example on death and dying issue with children. My father-in-law died when my son was four. And my son Michael was very close to his grandfather. After he suddenly died, my son took it very hard and would cry and cry about it. And his main concern was that his grandpa was by himself in the cemetery in the dark and the horrible knowledge that he was under the ground. He was worried about him and that his body was by itself. I then explained how the angels took his grandpa to God in heaven and who grandpa really was is no longer in the ground. He is with his own father and mother and many relatives in heaven. So do not worry and that grandpa is happy. This still wouldn't console him. So, I then drew pictures of the whole story of the death. His death bed, his spirit leaving the body, and the body in the coffin, and the burial. I drew clouds and a picture of Jesus with his arms outstretched and his grandpa with him. And this is when he felt a peace about it. Since then, he never has come to me with questions of his dying, but I believe since we practice a faith in our household and that my children have a knowledge of the light of God they have can come to terms with their dying. Although they fear death, as many of us do, they believe they will have everlasting life. They all attend church regularly and go in their own car. I don't force them. They have a quest for the study of scripture. I don't make them read scripture. They along with their friends and cousins have religious discussions and debates because it is in them to ponder about the purpose of life.

(Edited by jade on 03-10-2005 16:13)

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The religiouis are terrified if they don't indoctrinate their young they may find a mind of their own.

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i love finding out what i think from reading someone else's post

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

DL you are right and you are wrong in my view.

Wrong to suggest one 'throws' one children out. Let them out but arm them with info first.

Right to suggest they be influenced to make good choices, but of course that is where arming them with information comes in.

Of course one's own attitudes are going to influence one's children, but the point I made was one's own attitudes should not be the only information they recieve. This does not provide them with the best tools.

In my case, my daughter got info from many different sources. In the case of the Jade's of the world, any children would be thrust out into the world with their heads filled with lies, myths, bigotries and misdirections as well as downtight historical inaccuracies.

Jade, your little death scene points out exactly one of the reasons why mankind invented gods and religions...to soothe the fears of reality.

Fig, try to remember much of what is posted here is opinion. Must have struck a nerve though.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Ehtheist said:

Of course one's own attitudes are going to influence one's children, but the point I made was one's own attitudes should not be the only information they recieve.

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I think that's fair and I would basically agree. I think children should be provided as complete an education as is feasible. Keeping information from them can often backfire. So it is better to go over varying view points with your child to help her learn how to deal with them in the real world.

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Ehtheist said:

In the case of the Jade's of the world, any children would be thrust out into the world with their heads filled with lies, myths, bigotries and misdirections as well as downtight historical inaccuracies.

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I don't think Jade deserves that if you mean to say that she personally lies and is bigotted. That would be an outright flame I should think. It is your prerogative to regard her positions as such though. I would appreciate clarification that you didn't mean your comments as a flame.

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Ehtheist said:

...to soothe the fears of reality.

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I ask again, why is death so disturbing to us? If it is just part of the so called "circle of life", why is our initial reaction to it negative? I think I can assume from your theory on how mankind invented gods, that mankind in general had a *need* to do so. How do you answer why this need exists? I am interested in knowing how this is answered from the non-theistic world view.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

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I ask again, why is death so disturbing to us?

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Because we, like all animals, have evolved a fear of death. Those creatures that did not have a fear of death died very rapidly, compared to those creatures that did. Evolution. Fear is a survival mechanism. We humans, as a species, have an extraordinary grasp of the concept of life and death. We also have an extraordinary grasp of the concepts of cause and effect. We also have memory. Thus, we know that once dead, you don't come back. We don't know if there is anything afterwards - there is a lack of information, because the ways that we as humans gather information is not possible to use in the case of exploring death so far. This inspires fear, fear of the unknown, and fear of non-existence.

Death removes the chance to reproduce further for that particular being.

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If it is just part of the so called "circle of life", why is our initial reaction to it negative?

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There are many things that are part of Nature, that we tend to react negatively to - this doesn't mean that it isn't natural. Being cold and wet, for example. Hunger. Thirst. Things that make us sad. Pain.

This "need" (as you call it) is a survival mechanism, and is quite natural (most living creatures have it). As for inventing beings outside of the realm of existence, that is how Mankind has been explaining the unknown since it rose onto it's hind legs and walked, I suppose. The need here is to bring order in a perceived chaos, and attempted understanding of the unknown by ascribing it with more human-like attributes. It makes it much easier to understand these natural occurances and processes when they have human traits.

Oh my, it was generic, but using Jade as a typical example of the type of person, as she portrays hereself on these threads.

If it happens to define her, well, truth hurts.

If it doesn't, then there is no need to get yer knickers in a knot.

As for death, WS did a far better job of answering that than I could have and I agree with him.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Ehtheist said:
Fig, try to remember much of what is posted here is opinion.

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i'd be willing to say most of what's posted here and didn't strike a nerve at all, just found it entertaining.it's always interesting to hear the perspective of someone who's generalized you according to your worldview without knowing you at all.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

We all do the generalization thing, it is just that Ehtheist doesn't keep it in his head =)

Cheers,

Dan @ Code Town