Topic awaiting preservation: The existence of God.... (Page 3 of 5)

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To your other point, why do you think we have a need to explain the unknown?

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Because we have the ability to recongnize something as being unknown, and it installs fear and curiosity in us. Explaining it takes away the fear and satisfies the feeling of curiousity.

Second is an undying curiousity (of which Mankind is not alone in) - our thirst for knowledge is a known trait.

Yes, but why do we need to know why is what I'm probing.

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Yes, but why do we need to know why is what I'm probing.

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Why do YOU need to know why? Answer that question and you've answered your own question.

I have. But I don't think you accept my answer, briggl. The answer is that we seek purpose because we were created for it by God.

[edit]WS's answer to me was basically "because we can". Does that explain it enough for you? Isn't that just like saying "because God did it"?

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(Edited by Bugimus on 03-08-2005 00:43)

Bugimus: That's not a surprise but I neither buy your answer
The human species, and several other animal species, have the capacity to solve never seen before problems. Some people even specialized in solving/trying to solve problems. Shall we put our head in the sand and do as if those questions do not exist and invoke a convenient deity in all occasions ?

We "need" to know what our purpose is simply because we have built ourselves up in importance to the point that we cannot accept that we don't have some lofty purpose.

To say that this "need" equates to the need for food or water is plain silly, IMO.

As a prime example in support of this, I must cite the fact that I do not feel this need. And yet I am not a cold empty shell, dying for lack of purpose.

We've had the discussion many times before of this "god hole". Many people simply do not have such a thing. It is very clear that many people seem to have this need in their life, and they fill it with 'god'. In my experience, none of these people have been able to accept that others simply *do not* have this need, this hole.

I don't substitute drugs, or money, or success, or fame, or any other such thing for the missing 'god' in my life. And I am certainly not unique in this.

The only purpose beyond the purely biological is the purpose I create for myself. It is only as grand as the impact it has on others (and my imagination). It will only last as long as people feel it warrants having recorded or remembered.

And that's ok =)

Yes, I know where you stand, poi.

I had hoped that you could see that I'm not advocating that we attribute every unexplained thing to a "convenient deity".

Human understanding and the scientific method have limitations. Science is simply not able to answer some of the most sought after answers that we as a species long for. I'm not sure you and some others here would agree with that.

[edit]DL, are you telling me that the first time you realized that you would someday die, you were totally ok with the idea? What was your initial gut reaction to your realization that you were mortal. I most certainly got depressed when I realized that I was going to die someday. It didn't really hit me too hard until my late 20s and then I really had to come to terms with that reality.


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(Edited by Bugimus on 03-08-2005 02:01)

Indeed you're not a zealot like Gideon et al.

What is "the most sought after answers that we as a species long for" to you ?

the unified theory ? the existence of other intelligent forms of life on other planets ? the real number of dimensions ? the number of universe(s) ? this is the kind of questions I'm eager to hear the replies.

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I most certainly got depressed when I realized that I was going to die someday.

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You know one day or another everybody dies. It includes you, me, our friends, parents, children, pets, ... There's no need to cry about that, it won't change anything. Praying won't change it either. Till then : CARPE DIEM.



(Edited by poi on 03-08-2005 02:25)

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It didn't really hit me too hard until my late 20s and then I really had to come to terms with that reality.

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I don't recall a sudden realization, nor any partiuclar gut reaction.

I can honestly say that I dealt with this thought as a child...perhaps 6-8 years old. Not to say the thought of death doesn't come around from time to time....but it's never been an issue that I saw as particularly problematic.

I must say that I am a little intrigued that this is an issue that 'hit you hard' in your 20's...it clearly illustrates the difference in our views in general.

Everything dies.

~shrug~

Accepting that from the start saves a lot of grief later on, I'd say

Coming to terms with the idea that there may be nothing beyond this existence is a good way to make sure you've got your priorities straight too. Unfortunately, most people will read that as implying that we should just live it up and now and fuck everything else (or just fuck everything... ). It doesn't have to be so extreme...

You can accept life as it is without losing all sense of hope or reason or goodness.

There can also be something beyond what we can see and touch without needing the concept of god or religion. There can be something 'higher' (and looking at humanity I'd even say there clearly is...) that is truly higher, rather than something higher that is centered on us, whose greatest deed was creating us, and a world for us...and whose biggest worry is what we do...

we're a part of a cycle that goes far beyond us or our silly needs or feelings of purpose.



(Edited by DL-44 on 03-08-2005 04:36)

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Bugimus said:

WS's answer to me was basically "because we can". Does that explain it enough for you? Isn't that just like saying "because God did it"?

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As WS said, humans have a curiosity built in that drives us to find answers. Many philosophers have tried to answer why, and I don't have any better answers than anyone else. But because I don't know the answer doesn't mean that God did it.

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Bugimus said:

It didn't really hit me too hard until my late 20s and then I really had to come to terms with that reality.

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So sometime in your late 20's you woke up and said, "Oh, my gosh, I'm going to die someday!" Then you decided that God was the answer. Was that because you realized that other answers meant that you were mortal and someday would just be gone? (No everlasting life.) Or did you have some kind of revelation like Gideon says he had? Or was it something else?




(Edited by briggl on 03-08-2005 04:53)

Well, from an evolutionary standpoint, since we humans don't have much in the way of natural weaponry, and we are not particularly fast, strong, or big, we have one thing that puts us above the rest of the animal kingdom - our ability to reason, solve problems, and turn the unknown into the known.

This ability to explore the unknown has undoubtedly led to our success as a species. Being able to understand the how, the why, the what, etc does lead to the ability to better plan, to see action and consequence, and to continually advance our ability to survive and adapt to our environment. This in turn led to an increase in population. And the rest is human history.

And I firmly believe that Mankind will conquer death one day. It is one of the striving parts of our existence, to escape it. Unfortunately, I won't be around to enjoy it. But then, the greater cycles of existence doesn't take the insigificence of myself into consideration.

And I think that is the main point here. It is not the central point of existence to revolve around us, but rather, our task to understand and accept this Nature that surrounds us. Our existence makes very little difference to the vast cycles of Nature.

And we shouldn't fool ourselves that this is somehow different, just because of belief in the supernatural. Irregardless of belief, we still are subject to the cycles of Nature and existence. For me, this is the most impelling argument that the universe is a natural environment.

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we still are subject to the cycles of Nature and existence. For me, this is the most impelling argument that the universe is a natural environment.

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Yes, I agree, but all anyone has to do is say that it is because that is the way God made it, then we're right back at square 1.

briggl: And all anyone saying it is because that is the way God made it is a zealot using its convenient deity to fit every single thing it do/can not understand. Such a zealot will preach in the desert and have no chance at all to convince a skeptic of the existence of a superior being.

It is desperation in my view.

Those like Jade and to a lesser degree Bug, who feel the need to proselytize, are just looking for re-assurance that what they believe is correct. "The more people who believe the way I do, the more I am sure I am right".

This reveals a deeply rooted, but not yet admitted, insecurity about their faith in my opinion.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Well, I have to wonder Ehethist, what draws us to evangelize for Christ as opposed to you who evangelize against it. Of where does this need to oppose it come from? What drives you to do this too?

Bugs & I know why we feel compelled to do it. It is Christ who lives in us. It is he who speaks even if we are imperfect with sin. We are just the vessels he uses. Every good thought, word or deed comes from faith. Christians may differ in ways of worship to CHrist as Bugs and I do, but it all leads to the same message. Of Christ walk on Calvery to the cross, his embrace of it and death on it for the salvation of the souls of mankind. Its our way of imitating the the life of Christ human that draws us to seek the light that lives in others.

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Of where does this need to oppose it come from?

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It comes form having it shoved down your throat constantly.

It comes from the violent history of the religion.

It comes from the absolute lies propogated by the religious in tehir quest for conversion.

It comes from the absolute hypocrisy presented by the vast majority of the religious.

When things that are blatantly false are touted as absolute truth, and shoved down your throat every day, you come to a point where you simply must stand up and say "enough of this bullshit".

And then when you have discussions about it, and hordes of people come out with statements that are blatantly wrong, but are supported by church doctrine....there is no choice but to oppose it.

DL-44: when I first read your last post I thought it came from Etheist
Whatever I agree with you

Anyway.....
I don't believe its forced on anyone here lately. For those who have ears to hear, let them hear. To discuss it harms no one.
Christ did not come to do any harm and make you feel threatened about him.

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I don't believe its forced on anyone here lately.

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Here probably. But if it's not forced on anyone how is it possible that millions of children are baptized without their wise approval ?

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Anyway.....

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Ah yes....ask a question and ignore the answer.

ok =)

Yah DL, stop stealin' me t'under

Really Jade, if folks like you didn't come onto public forums spewing such arrant nonsense, folks like me would not feel the need to prove you wrong...again and again and again.

It is not the a-religious who stand on street corners or beat down people's doors pushing their narrow religious views.

You are doing the same thing here...proselytizing and not very well either.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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You are doing the same thing here...proselytizing and not very well either.

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Well, how could I improve my proselytizing? Help me out here.

Just stop it. It only comes in two grades, bad and worse.

Why the hell would I help you out? I don't approve of it.

Help you out? Sure...first, just show me how you got in.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Jade said:

Christ did not come to do any harm and make you feel threatened about him.

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Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

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Lets not pull just one sentence and not use the whole section.


34 ?Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Has a different meaning when you use the whole section. Its not meant to be taken in a literal way. I know we read the main message of Christ is that of peacemaker, but here he tells us he is a sword. Here I believe Christ with his prophetic words comes to tell us to follow him will divide because you will forsake others who will go against you. He uses the word sword, because a sword divides. At the time these words were written Jesus was telling of his future church which will have many divisions. But you will preservere if you believe in him with will attain life eternal. He uses family members because the Church is referred to in scripure as an intimate family. At the time there were Jews who wanted to believe in him and Jews who wanted to follow him. Jesus during his ministry caused all kinds of havoc and confusion and evean hatred amongst his own people, the Jews. His ministry and messge divided and still continues to divide. This timeless messge is for us too in this age because to follow the way of the cross divides us against our breathern. Is there total harmony in the Christian world. No there isn't.

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Has a different meaning when you use the whole section.

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Not really. Still sounds pretty vindictive to me.

Ehtheist, I was not serious about needing your help. I was only joking.

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Here probably. But if it's not forced on anyone how is it possible that millions of children are baptized without their wise approval ?

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Poi

Here the real meaning of baptism of infants is I think misunderstood by many outside the faith. Baptism of infants is an initiation of that child into the family of believers. And into the faith that the parents have. In the sacrament of the baptism rite the parents along with the grandparents are making a promise to bring the children up according to the faith. The rite of the waters of baptism hold much importance in the life of the child because we believe it washes away the original sin. I am a member of the baptism committee which hold classes for the parents and godparents. We instruct them on the importance of prayer life in the family at an early age. We send our children to preschool or kindergarten to learn when they are very young so why would we think that teaching the child about the love of God, which gives them eternal life early is wrong. I would instill that into my child as soon as possible. How can we expect a child to know about God if we do not teach them and know they belong into a worldwide family.
In our belief we believe if a person is not baptized he will not enter the kingdom, so we do it ASAP after birth of the child anyway. As the children become older in the faith they go thur another preparation to be in full communion with christ in the sacrament of the Communion. When the child becomes a teenager around 16 years old he is then ready to make a bigger committment to Christ thur the sacrament of Confirmation. They are able to choose if they are ready or not at this age. If not they may make this sacrament at an older age when ever they want.

All this being said, the faith believes if the child is baptized but has no instruction of faith from his family how can know who God is, or understand the faith. We believe baptism doesn't save you. You have to save yourself. This belief is at odds with most protestant denominations. They believe you have to be able to make your own choice when you get older on what faith you should decide to follow then get baptized. And once saved, always saved. We do not believe this way. We do many adult baptisms too. Because their parents didn't get them baptized when they were young. And we baptize new converts who are adults all the time. But we do recgonize a protestant baptism, so if they have already been baptized and convert to catholicism, we will not baptize them again.

(Edited by jade on 03-09-2005 06:59)

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Here the real meaning of baptism of infants is I think misunderstood by many outside the faith. Baptism of infants is an initiation of that child into the family of believers. And into the faith that the parents have.

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Indoctrination is indoctrination, irregardless of how it is presented. The fact remains, that the children do not get to excercise their free will here (and here in Germany, the children are normally indoctrinated into the Church at an early age, so any question about "free will" is moot). In Germany (at least in these parts up north, where I am living) it is considered more of a social gesture, with presents, etc - in effect bribes. The pressure from the surrounding community to do so, is enormous.

Web. How do you expect young children to exercise free will in regard to religious faith? I think they are not held accountable at that age? If you were a believer wouldn't you think they are heavenly until the age of knowlege of good and evil and an intended evil act is performed. Even if they are not baptized, they will not go to hell. In matters of faith until they reach the age of the knowldege of God and then act against God then the act will be judged. This is just what I think. Can't persume to know what God may decide. I believe when I have my day in the heavenly court, I will be judged from when I understood the message and still went against it. I don't presume to have all the answers.

I believe that someone should be an adult before being allowed to decide such issues. After all, we require that people be adult for a number of things that we consider valuable and important for society.

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Even if they are not baptized, they will not go to hell.

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Yes, well, then they don't need to be baptised in the first place, do they? So what is the purpose of the baptism? It seems to me, that it is a process soley designed to indoctrinate. The confirmation (which takes place much later) seems to be rather connected to the baptism, as well.

Why not wait for both until the person in question is considered an adult, and then can exercise their free will of their own accord?

jade: I second WebShaman's words. The practice of the baptem at an early age is a clear violation of the freedom of cult of the children. It's indoctrination and proselytism.

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Baptism of infants is an initiation of that child into the family of believers. And into the faith that the parents have.

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In our belief we believe if a person is not baptized he will not enter the kingdom, so we do it ASAP after birth of the child anyway.

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Do you solely realise that you are saying that Christians are forcing their faith on their children ?

Whatever Christians do believe and how strong they believe, they have the duty to respect their children and their freedom of cult.

[personnal_rant]
Last year I went to the baptem of a niece, she was ~3 months old. I've had a hard time refraining to ask her parents how their baby managed to forge her opinion on faith and decided to be baptized while in 26 years I never "found" God. Few months ago, I've refused to become the godfather of my nephew, because I refuse to force a religion on him. Though I appreciate the confidence my sister-in-law put on me, I consider my answer as a gift I'm giving him. That way I'm preserving his freedom.
[/personnal_rant]



(Edited by poi on 03-09-2005 13:01)

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Do you solely realise that you are saying that Christians are forcing their faith on their children?

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And what religion does not do this? Every one that I know of does that, in various ways.

Indeed.
I specifically talked about the Christians as this thread is mainly aimed at the Christian God, but all believers doing this are guilty of not respecting the right of their children.



(Edited by poi on 03-09-2005 13:35)

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but all believers doing this are guilty of not respecting the right of their children.

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As much as I oppose religion, I would call this just plain silly.

You raise your children the way you feel is right.

Every parent does this, every parent should - must - do this.

If you beleive your child will go to hell if they don't live the right way, how can it be viewed as anything short of an absolute obligation to do the best you can to ensure that they live the right way?

Every parent "forces" their beliefs on their child one way or another. It's how it works. The ideal is that you raise a child capable of making an intelligent informed decision on the important matters in their life. But "intelligent" and "informed" are very relative things, reliant to a great extent upon what kinds of things parents subject their children to.

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Last year I went to the baptem of a niece, she was ~3 months old. I've had a hard time refraining to ask her parents how their baby managed to forge her opinion on faith and decided to be baptized while in 26 years I never "found" God. Few months ago, I've refused to become the godfather of my nephew, because I refuse to force a religion on him. Though I appreciate the confidence my sister-in-law put on me, I consider my answer as a gift I'm giving him. That way I'm preserving his freedom.

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Poi and others


Well... I dont see how you view this as force. Don't we indoctrine all kinds of beliefs to our children in other areas as they are growing? Like in education, certain self disclipines in family life, in our different cultures? Its a handed down legacy to our offspring. Why in the area of faith would it be any different? Besides when the child grows older it can choose. They have a free will. They can leave the Christian faith like most of you have. They are not locked it forever. Many other faiths do the same practice just in different forms.

(Edited by jade on 03-09-2005 15:25)

DL-44: Sorry to be so vigilante to the human rights. For sure there is bigger violations but this one is clear to me. Believers are citizens. As such they have the absolute obligation to respect their duties and the rights of others, including of their children. Among these rights, there is the freedom of cult.

As you just said the ideal solution is to raise the children and once they are capable of making an intelligent informed decision about religion they'll do.

jade: You see no force on putting a 3 months old child in a religious process and registering him/her as a member of that religion without asking his/her wise approval ? Sure, when the child grows older it can choose, but the evil is already done. In the facts most are locked forever as extremely little people know they can cancel their baptem and therefore be removed of the registers of the churches.

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Many other faiths do the same practice just in different forms.

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Is it supposed to justify the systematic baptem of the children of the Christians ?



(Edited by poi on 03-09-2005 16:18)

In a faith which puts so much emphais on symbolism, baptism is clearly one of it's most telling ceremonies, ritual brain-washing.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Jade,

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Don't we indoctrine all kinds of beliefs to our children in other areas as they are growing?

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indoctrinate

To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.
To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view: a generation of children who had been indoctrinated against the values of their parents.


v : teach doctrines to; teach uncritically; "The Moonies indoctrinate their disciples"

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Not to the extent that I meant when I mentioned indoctrinate together with baptism and confirmation. I see teaching information and systems of information gathering, coupled with the necessary skills and foundations to function in society to be vastly different than deciding for the child in question what his/her belief is and making decisions for the child based on this.

In short, I see raising and teaching a child, much different than indoctrinating it into a belief system.

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Ehtheist said:

Those like Jade and to a lesser degree Bug, who feel the need to proselytize, are just looking for re-assurance that what they believe is correct. "The more people who believe the way I do, the more I am sure I am right". This reveals a deeply rooted, but not yet admitted, insecurity about their faith in my opinion.

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Perhaps for some this is the reason; very probably so. I am pretty firm in my beliefs when it comes to xianity though, and I honestly can tell you I don't spread the message to bolster my faith. It is precisely because I'm so convinced of its veracity that it makes me want to share. You have to put yourself in my shoes to understand. I believe that there is an actual way to live forever in harmony with the Creator. I'm not talking in abstract here, I am speaking quite literally. If you believed that, then you would also want those whom you love to share in it. It is really that simple. I know you disagree, but I would ask you to understand the positions of those with whom you disagree.

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jade said:

Bugs & I know why we feel compelled to do it. It is Christ who lives in us. It is he who speaks even if we are imperfect with sin. We are just the vessels he uses. Every good thought, word or deed comes from faith. Christians may differ in ways of worship to CHrist as Bugs and I do, but it all leads to the same message. Of Christ walk on Calvery to the cross, his embrace of it and death on it for the salvation of the souls of mankind. Its our way of imitating the the life of Christ human that draws us to seek the light that lives in
others.

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Now that is something I can wholeheartedly support I know it sounds like utter rubbish to many, but I can assure you this is our motivation.

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jade said:

Of where does this need to oppose it come from?

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This, however, I would not have said. Why? Because it is perfectly natural to oppose the gospel message. Christ himself told us the message would not only be hard to accept but that people would want to kill the messengers in many cases. When I do as I asked Ehtheist to do above and place myself in his shoes, I can totally understand the opposition. In fact, I've had Xian zealots and even some cult members hound me about not being in the true religion. You wanna guess how I reacted to that? With extreme opposition! And quite often I was insensed at what I was being told.

So I expect the opposition but remain patient and try my best to be firm in my faith. In a way, it's almost like a dentist pulling teeth. The dental works needs to be done but having a nice dentist is so much better even though it still hurts

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DL-44 said:

Every parent "forces" their beliefs on their child one way or another. It's how it works. The ideal is that you raise a child capable of making an intelligent informed decision on the important matters in their life. But "intelligent" and "informed" are very relative things, reliant to a great extent upon what kinds of things parents subject their children to.

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Not to sound repetitive but I agree 100% with DL-44's words on raising children. I think what you are missing, poi, is the realization that *everyone* forces their views on their kids whether it be secular or religious. When children reach a certain age, they become their own people able to make their own decisions.

In the case of infant baptism, the idea is that the faith of the parents is subsituted for the child until such time as the child *can choose for itself*. The Roman Catholic church does not force anyone to remain Catholic once they reach adulthood.

poi, it almost sounds to me you are dangerously close to advocating the "outlawing" of religion for children. Do you realize how hypocritical that sounds? Tolerance is a two way street! Freedom of religion should be a fundamental right for everyone. The case of children being raised by their parents is an exception as DL and others have explained. Someone has to raise children *until* they are old enough to make their own decisions and the best equipped for that job are the parents. The key point is made in your own words "Sure, when the child grows older it can choose..."

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Web. So you believe early todlers shouldn't get instruction on faith at a very early age at all?. I mean we know washing our teeth at a very early age keep are teeth in good shape to carry us to our old age. We do a lot of preventative maintenance on our bodies from an early age. Why not the soul as well? This is the Christian ideology.