Topic awaiting preservation: The Christian Paradox (Page 5 of 7)

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Yet I do like the truth that this country started with xian ideals to START with. Instead of Islam, or Judaoism, but I can agree that we have moved on from our xian roots. It's a nice solid base to work with, but let's not stay in those dark ages, and create our laws built on such out-dated ideals.

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This country (meaning America) never started with xian ideals. My forefathers were NOT xians, and neither were the neighboring tribes.

In fact, I don't know of any tribe in America that had xian ideals before the missionaries came to the new world.

America did not start with the Pilgrims, contrary to what some might want to believe.

America started with dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals.

^ That was mostly before my people came to America

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This country (meaning America) never started with xian ideals. My forefathers were NOT xians, and neither were the neighboring tribes.In fact, I don't know of any tribe in America that had xian ideals before the missionaries came to the new world.America did not start with the Pilgrims, contrary to what some might want to believe.

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I don't consider "America", starting that early. Around the time, just before, during, and after the DEC was signed, is my starting point idea.

Then maybe you should refer to The United States of America.

My people, and many of the other tribes of Native American Indians, were in America first, and definitely had a big impact on the budding USA.

With respect WS, have you heard of Kennebunk Man?

His discovery threw the "Native" population of Washington, and some adjoining states, into a fit of panic.

Seems the chap had red hair and other charatcteristics, including copper tools, completely inconsistent with the Asian origins of your people.

Oh, the other thing was; he predated the arrival of your people by some 10,000 years.

Another similiar find was made here in Victoria a few years ago, but we are so afraid of offending our native population it was immediately re-buried and hushed up.

How do I know then? Talked with one of the workers on the site who wasn't impressed by orders to keep his mouth shut.

In any event, there was nothing to make one think either one was a xian.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Then maybe you should refer to The United States of America.

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I'll keep that in mind.

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My people, and many of the other tribes of Native American Indians, were in America first,

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What first? First person, or as a people, or society? No offense to your heritage, either. Just asking.

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For the sake of discussion Zynx, let's say the nature's of man and animal cannot be comperd to each other. With this thought in place, could you explain the what is and isn't classified as natural in terms of man's behavior?

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We do display some similiar behaviors, but not for the same reasons. And that would be a long list I'm sure, but here is a few ideas, that show how we differ from them.
We can speak
We can write
We have a sense of personal history
We have s sense of the history of other cultures
We have theories about what makes the world tick (e.g., believe in God, Evolution, or alien visitors)
We devise schemes of how the world ?should be' (e.g., have legal systems and cultural ideals ? ?everyone is equal', ?only a man and a woman can be married

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In every case I can think of, when a group of people turn to genocide or war with another group of people, they don't do it simply because they have different idealogies, they do it because they see a threat against their way of life in the idealogies of others.

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Ok, but how can animals, think on such a level that man does? Their brains are just not capable of such thought. Yes we call them ARMY ants, for their organization which is seen, not unlike an actual army. But I wouldn't give them acknowledgement for actually being intellectual on the same level as of man's armies.

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Zynx--It makes no sense.

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Ok, look at this way.

Say your walking down a hallway. On the left is a mural of the biological makeup of man. On the right is a mural of the biological makeup of animals. Now as you walk further down, on the left is a mural of what is behaviorially natural to man. On the right is a mural of what is behaviorially natural for animals. Do we share similiar behavior(s)? Yes. Does that mean that if man behaves in the same manner as animals, that he does so for all of the same reasons that animals do? No.

That notion, is bereft of science.

My comments on the original article are not surprisingly similar to Fig's. Much of the article preview is correct, sadly. American's spirituality runs quite deep but their understanding of it is remarkably shallow. As the prophet wrote, "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge".

You will find true Xians on the political right as well as the left and everything in between.

If you had to name the number one false god of the American people, I think it would have to be money.

That being said, I do think the article preview goes too far in this:

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And therein is the paradox. America is simultaneously the most professedly Christian of the developed nations and the least Christian in its behavior.

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Our prosperity allows many good and true Xians to do a great many good works for others both here and abroad.

I think it is also important to note that Christian behavior cannot be solely defined by feeding the poor. The key goal of Xianity is to bring the message of the gospel to all peoples with the loving behavior being the proof that the messengers are genuine.

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I dunno Bug, looks pretty accurate to me.

Look at your president...all god this and jesus that and off camera and mic he swears like a trooper and calls a grieving mother a fucking bitch (Sheehan).

Then there are all the good xians quoted on the "Scary Site" thread.

There may be a few good souls like youself out there spreading the word, but I think the other kind have control of the levers of power.

I think too the article was basing it's conclusion on public perception.

Perception, as you may know, is reality to many.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Bugimus: If you had to name the number one false god of the American people, I think it would have to be money.

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Couldn't agree more Bugs.

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

With that in mind, consider from a global perspective. We are one of the most wealthy nations in the world, and the $19,000 and below we consider poverty is more than 96% of the world's people have. We are the rich...and as a society we downplay the sin of greed far too often.

And it is quickly becoming the chief architect of our demise.

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There may be a few good souls like youself out there spreading the word, but I think the other kind have control of the levers of power.

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Absolutely right, but there are far more "good souls" than the "other kind". Certainly more than a few as you allude to.

The "other kind" are far fewer in numbers, they simply exert more influence, and thus are followed by the media. Their actions determine the perception of the whole, and in many cases poison the minds of undereducated "good souls".

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Perception, as you may know, is reality to many.

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It is readily apparent.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

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Yet I do like the truth that this country started with xian ideals to START with. Instead of Islam, or Judaoism, but I can agree that we have moved on from our xian roots. It's a nice solid base to work with, but let's not stay in those dark ages, and create our laws built on such out-dated ideals.

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My answer was soley to this post - which is not a truth, as one can see.

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With respect WS, have you heard of Kennebunk Man?

His discovery threw the "Native" population of Washington, and some adjoining states, into a fit of panic.

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Oh, the other thing was; he predated the arrival of your people by some 10,000 years.

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First of all, yes I have heard of him, Dio. Second, that has nothing to do with my tribe. I am also aware that it is vry likely that Humans from France journeyed over the ice to the Americas during the last ice age and mixed with the Northern Eastern Indian Tribes there (DNA testing has shown that this is possible). Third, do you know when my people came to America? Really? I'd be fascinated to know when this was.

The Vikings were in America before the other later coming Europeans.

So what?

That has nothing, whatsoever to do with what I posted. My people were in America before the Pilgrims came. The first winter almost killed them. Later, the relations between the Eastern Indians and the European settlers began to deteriorate (for various reasons) and that shaped the coming land-to-be.

The country didn't "start" with just Xian ideals - that was my point. And the role of the Eastern Native American Indians is also largely underplayed, if even mentioned at all in the History books. But it is there, and it did occur.

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Ramasax said:

...but there are far more "good souls" than the "other kind".

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Dio, I think this is the case. Of course, I can't prove that so I also sincerely hope it is the case From where I sit, I see a great many good and caring people who carry the name of Christ well. They are not perfect by any stretch but they are good and decent people.

I am just now getting to the "Scary Site" quotes. I plan to post a reply to that.

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Diogenes said:

Look at your president...all god this and jesus that and off camera and mic he
swears like a trooper and calls a grieving mother a fucking bitch (Sheehan).

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Sheehan is not only a grieving mother. She has become, either knowingly or not, an instrument of the political left wing machine. She has said far far worse things about the president than his calling her a f*cking bitch off camera. In my view, that kind of banter is will within normal game play for political struggling.

Perhaps there are other examples would illustrate your point better than that one?

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As for the xian founding; http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

WS, the point about Kennebunk was the evidence that there were red-headed and likely realtively white-skinned people here BEFORE your Asian ancestors struggled across the ice floes.

So, your tribe or not, you spring from a common root and you were not the first here.

I agree you beat the Pilgrims by a considerable margin, that "Native" americans had sophisticated societies and that without the aid of the locals the ill-equipped and prepared Brits would have perished.

I further agree the assistance thus rendered has been considerably down-played by the history writers.

So much easier to portray one's genocide as justifiable, if the other side doesn't have a friendly face.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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WS, the point about Kennebunk was the evidence that there were red-headed and likely realtively white-skinned people here BEFORE your Asian ancestors struggled across the ice floes.

So, your tribe or not, you spring from a common root and you were not the first here.

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I am already aware of this, and that has no bearing on the point I was making [sic]that Native American Indians were in the Americas before the Pilgrims and Founders of the US and therefore contributed to its Founding[/sic].

*shrug*

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, " It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. "

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Good saying. I like it much.

"man behaves in the same manner as animals, that he does so for all of the same reasons that animals do?"

Do you separate humans from "animals" as a group, or from a specific species, and if so, which one?
See, this is where you miss the point all the time.
Mans natural behavior indicates that he/she is an animal too, and therefor you can't really separate humans from nature, as you would like to have it.
Your whole point of view is 'off', nobody here understands where you are going with it.
You might be right, you might be wrong, but your arguments are so confusing in this respect that I can't decide which.
- According to you then, why is man NOT an animal?

(^-^)b

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quote:, " It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. "

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i read: god is not forgiving and hates rich people ...

ah whatever ... this is all so absurd anyway ...

"the eye of the needle" refers to a smaller door in the city wall for passage into the city after dark when the larger city gates were closed for security. a camel could go through, but first he had to kneel down and his burdens be removed.

get it?

Wow, had some catching up to do:

Zynx, your posts are getting harder and harder to follow, and you have been resorting to childish comebacks as opposed to explaining your position. We get it, you don't think man and animal's natures can be compared, so do you have any educated reasoning for this?:

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We do display some similiar behaviors, but not for the same reasons. And that would be a long list I'm sure, but here is a few ideas, that show how we differ from them.
We can speak
We can write
We have a sense of personal history
We have s sense of the history of other cultures
We have theories about what makes the world tick (e.g., believe in God, Evolution, or alien visitors)
We devise schemes of how the world ?should be' (e.g., have legal systems and cultural ideals ? ?everyone is equal', ?only a man and a woman can be married

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Cool, everything you are listing is learned characteristics, these are not natural. These are what seperates us from other species. If the human ability to learn was taken away, we would be just like any other animal, nature and all.

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Yet I do like the truth that this country started with xian ideals to START with. Instead of Islam, or Judaoism, but I can agree that we have moved on from our xian roots. It's a nice solid base to work with, but let's not stay in those dark ages, and create our laws built on such out-dated ideals.

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I'm wondering what the reason for putting xian ideals over Islam and Judaism was? I mean honestly, it seems that in the making of our government, the founding fathers allowed themselves to pull as far away from their beliefs as they would comfortably allow. It has some xian leanings, but not xian based. I don't remember having to pay the 10% tax every Sunday or following this Law: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Mark 9:43. How about the fact that G-Dub feels he is doing the right thing to spread christian ideals to the world, but in the process has limited freedom of speech in the Patriot Act. Free Speech, something that we were given by the xian founders. Overall, it seems to me that this country was founded on strong Machievellian ideals.

In response to the Christian Paradox, many christians don't even no how to act christian, let alone the many that label themselves this for the hell of it. The USA overall is currently overrun by ignorant individuals that can't grasp the fact of individuality or what is actually happening in our country, let alone the dismal state it is in. It is these ignorant individuals that feel they have to be labeled democrat or republican, furthermore enhancing the duopoly that has a stranglehold on our country. It is this same train of thought that leads individuals to label themselves christian, because they think they are in a "christian" society. It's like saying that I am an English major if all I do is take math classes. Seriously, the ignorance of others will be the death of us all.

On another note, for future reference, I am from Kennewick, WA...not KenneBUNK, WA. So, FYI, he is the Kennewick Man.

___________________________________
Quidquid Latine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur ~
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound

outcyder: http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

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There are some differences in the transmitted Greek. The needle in Matthew and Mark is a rafic. In Luke it is a belone. But both are synonyms for needles used in sewing, but Luke's is more likely to be used by a surgeon than a seamstress.

Another possible solution comes from the possibility of a Greek misprint. The suggestion is that the Greek word kamilos ('camel') should really be kamêlos, meaning 'cable, rope', as some late New Testament manuscripts1 actually have here. Hence it is easier to thread a needle with a rope rather than a strand of cotton than for a rich man to enter the kingdom.

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Even if it were mistranslation, the camel has to crawl through a gate on its knees, only after removing all of its baggage. The passage may not carry exactly the same weight this way, but the message is the same.

money -> greed -> corruption

You don't have to believe in a God to understand that universal truth.

Get it?

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

(Edited by Ramasax on 09-01-2005 09:43)

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Raeubu: I'm wondering what the reason for putting xian ideals over Islam and Judaism was? I mean honestly, it seems that in the making of our government, the founding fathers allowed themselves to pull as far away from their beliefs as they would comfortably allow.

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Native Americans aside, this "Christian nation' thing is a myth and needs to be nipped in the bud, so to speak.

Most of the founding fathers were not actually Christian, but simply deists and agnostics. Some of them, like Jefferson, were actually quite harsh with regard to the Christian religion as evidenced below.

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"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

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John Adams also signed the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, which in article 11 states:

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As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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The founding fathers of the US were all quite aware of the dangers of a nation founded on a religion, and Madison, who objected to both tax-exempt status for Churches and state appointed chaplains in Congress, summed it up best:

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"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

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There are some quotes from the founding fathers that are often employed by those perpetraing this myth but the passages themselves state "Christian nation" as in majority Christian which was and probably still is true, but not in the sense of actual founding and principles. Many others take the reference of the word "God" out of context in assuming they were referring to one specific religion.

The US founded on a philosophy and system of ethics basically in the realm of "live and let live". The most important principle is derived from that of property, the most important property being one's own body. You are a sovereign and you are free to live your life as you choose so long as you respect other's ppoperty and sovereignty.

Well, that was how it was planned anyway...

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It is these ignorant individuals that feel they have to be labeled democrat or republican, furthermore enhancing the duopoly that has a stranglehold on our country.

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Agreed. I like your line of thinking.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

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Kennewick, WA

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I think that "KenneBUNK" was a play on words...but I could be wrong *shrug*

You are correct, the body in question is known as "The Kenniwick Man". There are also remains of a White Tribe in South America that has been recently found. White Skin, Red hair. There is also the remains of such found in a valley in China.
Since those with Red Hair are more susceptable to Skin Cancer from overexposure to Stong Sunlight, I suspect that these finds are of a Race that came from the North, or from those adapted to a climate that has less Sunlight.

BTW - I used to live in Kennewick (Tri-Cities) - I actually went to College there.

oh ... thanks for explaining the needle thing

although ... the "money -> bad" thinking is only a poor man's grief imo

half of the rich people have earned their riches by obtaining knowlage (learning) and putting it to use .. they are usually the ones who contribute to the society much more than poor people ... technology, jobs, charity etc
since we can't have a ideal society where everyone's absolutely equal ... equally hardworking, honest, smart, well paid etc it's good (and extremely important) to have people who make the society go forward ... since most of us are lazy slobs (i dont exclude myself)

those who don't even try to think creatively and wait for the god to help them are much more to blame...

why did the nazis hate jews? they were jealous because jews were rich (also hardworking and clever but that they failed to notice)

oh ... btw i'm poor ... and lazy ... :P

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I think that "KenneBUNK" was a play on words

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That was probably just a mistake. Kennebunk and Kennebunkport are towns in Maine (the first G. Bush spent vacations there while in office) and the poster may have just confused it with Kennewick.

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That was probably just a mistake. Kennebunk and Kennebunkport are towns in Maine (the first G. Bush spent vacations there while in office) and the poster may have just confused it with Kennewick.

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Ahhh...that would explain why he then made it in reference to my post - thinking that it applied to Native American Indians on the East Coast, instead of the West Coast.

I was kind of wondering why Dio would post such...maybe you are right.

Dio?

(Edited by WebShaman on 09-01-2005 18:52)

Ramasax - got it - thanks

Mea Culpa. Did confuse bunk with wick. No excuse.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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half of the rich people have earned their riches by obtaining knowlage (learning) and putting it to use .. they are usually the ones who contribute to the society much more than poor people ... technology, jobs, charity etc

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This is true of people who have to work to get rich. The problem comes in when money is passed down from generation to generation. People tend to spoil their kids. This is not ALWAYS the case though. And it is understandable to want to give your kids things you never had.

My husband and I make pretty decent money, and we are tempted to give her everything we never had growing up. But we don't. She has to earn her way just like we did. It sounds cruel in a way I guess, and it hurts me mighty bad sometimes when other kids have things (like cell phones) that she doesn't, and to have to say "no, unless you can give me a good reason that you need one right now". But she is better off in the long run.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

omg ... ffs ... i wrote "knowlage" again! ... i just keep making that mistake ... this is so stupid... i'm not a native english speaker but i like to think that i can speak english ... oh well ... stupid fingers! ^^

Arthurio - what is your native language? And how long/in what context have you been speaking english?

I ask only because your english is excellent for it not being your native language.

It is better than what is sadly becoming a majority of native enlgish speakers...

(although I *did* spot that 'knowlage' with a shudder... )

I think computer keyboards have a built in typo function, hdden deep down in their electronic guts.

My brain knows how to spell the letters correctly (well, most of the time ) - apparently, my fingers don't.

Stupid computer!

What is more important, spelling or content? Where english is a second language for somone, it seems a tad petty to focus on either spelling or grammer.

At the same time if ESL folks want help with their english, let us be unstinting.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

He pointed out his own mistake, dio.

I'm simply pointing out that his english is in fact very good

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Arthurio - what is your native language? And how long/in what context have you been speaking english?

I ask only because your english is excellent for it not being your native language.

It is better than what is sadly becoming a majority of native enlgish speakers...

(although I *did* spot that 'knowlage' with a shudder... )

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hmm ... thx ...

my native language is estonian ... (Estonia is south from Finland) ... and the teachers have been trying to teach me english for roughly 10 years now ... since 2. grade ... i'm in highschool now ... last year ... i didn't like english for the first few years ... but then my parents bought me a computer ... and i think it's been going uphill from there ... i've never had any real practice ... (besides internet) ... and oh ... actually i've been taught by a real american for the past 2 years ... although i think watching movies without subtitles has done a much better job...(i've seen hundreds, literally) ... he's too ... american ... but nice guy tho ... everyone likes him ...

most of the young people can speak english around here ... kinda ... and some other languages as well like german and russian ... i've been taking those too (like i had a choice) ... but i can't tell a single sentence ... i don't really like em ^^ (actually some people speak finnish, swedish, french, japanese etc) ... i've seen over a 1000 episodes of anime (all in japanese with english subtitles) ... and i know only a few words ... i don't get it how people can learn japanese from anime ...

ok well ... bye-bye ... i'll shut up now...

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Arthurio: ... he's too ... american ... but nice guy tho ... everyone likes him ...

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As an American, that comment makes too much sense. I'm in Iraq right now and see how other soldiers interact with those that aren't, and it is shameful. And no need to shut up, you write better english than most americans do.

___________________________________
Quidquid Latine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur ~
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound

(Edited by Raeubu on 09-04-2005 23:06)

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Zynx, your posts are getting harder and harder to follow, and you have been resorting to childish comebacks as opposed to explaining your position.

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Yes I have and that's where frustration comes into play. Mine. Yes my fault. Yet I think too many people are assuming ideas or questions that I have not defended nor asked, based simply on what I post, yet they seem to have my answers already sorted out. example; Just because I was anti-Bush, did not mean I was pro-Kerry. But I'm working on my bad responses.

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We get it, you don't think man and animal's natures can be compared, so do you have any educated reasoning for this?

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First I would ask if you believe in adam & eve? I don't.

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I'm wondering what the reason for putting xian ideals over Islam and Judaism was? I mean honestly, it seems that in the making of our government, the founding fathers allowed themselves to pull as far away
from their beliefs as they would comfortably allow.

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I thought it was known that I was wrong to say such a thing? Which WS showed me why. I thought that was over with?

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Do you separate humans from "animals" as a group, or from a specific species, and if so, which one?

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A specific species. My investigations have shown it is hominid/hominin, depending on your choice of science defintions.

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Mans natural behavior indicates that he/she is an animal too, and therefore you can't really separate humans from nature, as you would like to have it.

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IS an animal or was an animal? While our roots come from nature, we have expanded our minds, beyond the animal way of thinking. Don't you agree?

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- According to you then, why is man NOT an animal?

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According to you. Here is where you have chosen an idea, and now I need to defend it. Again, anti Bush = pro-Kerry.

But for the sake of a debate, man is NOT an animal in may ways, as I have posted already. Let alone man's brain does not process "input" in the same manner as an animal does. Man can reason with other wyas of thought, that an animal can not. I don't know how else to say this, but man is master over beast.

If anyone would like, try and defend the opposite issues here, and show me why everyone thinks that there is NO difference between man and beast. Anyone?

" You are no match for Lord Gorlok! "

(Edited by Zynx on 09-09-2005 02:43)

Man is made of DNA - animals are made of DNA. Take away the support systems, and man acts remarkably like an animal - see New Orleans in recent history.

The make-up of the brain is remarkably similar to the make-up of brains in animals, with the exception of a few evolved areas (see new research results due to the Human Genome Project, and the new results from having mapped the genes of the Chimpanzee) and size.

We share the same basic needs.

There was an experiment done by a Doctor pair, with their children (not that the Doctor pair did get sentenced to prison for this), where they kept their son and daughter isolated from human contact, together in a room, for years - they both exhibited only animal-type actions.

Zynx, how do you think humans learn to talk, to drive, to do all the things that you think "human" is, that seperates Mankind from animals? We learn them from our Family circles, from our societies, and from our learning systems.

A newborn has very little of these things inborn. As it grows and matures, it is heavily reliant on these processes to become that which we consider "human" - taken away, and you have the Human Animal.

The Human Animal is still very much a part of us. It is still there, deep inside. Take away that which allows us to repress it, and it surfaces all too quickly.

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Man is made of DNA - animals are made of DNA. Take away the support systems, and man acts remarkably like an animal - see New Orleans in recent history.

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N.O. is a sad comparison WS. I have never ever said that we don't SHARE animal responses. Yet I consider that MAN can, and does evolve faster, than any animal. That is a small, yet factual proof, of our intelligence, comparable to animals. Sharing DNA does not make us MORE animal, it actually makes us MORE THAN an animal.

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The make-up of the brain is remarkably similar to the make-up of brains in animals, with the exception of a few evolved areas (see new research results due to the Human Genome Project, and the new results from having mapped the genes of the Chimpanzee) and size.

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First off science has shown that evolution in mans brain is not about size or weight. Second I find it quite arrogant of you to discount " a few evolved areas". Those areas contain a wealth of intelligence, that no animal has. Man has evolved over a few thousand years of working with tools and such, yet the apes/chimps still use those rudimentary tools. This clearly shows that a humans brain has evolved past an apes.

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Zynx, how do you think humans learn to talk, to drive, to do all the things that you think "human" is, that seperates Mankind from animals? We learn them from our Family circles, from our societies, and from our learning systems.

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Yes we do. And the IDEAS you mention separate us from the animals. Talking? I think you mean "communications". They differ greatly, between MAN and ANIMAL. Driving? Clearly a HUMAN perception.

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The Human Animal is still very much a part of us. It is still there, deep inside. Take away that which allows us to repress it, and it surfaces all too quickly.

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Under your hypothesys, yes, man will revert to his early emotions, and thinking.

Does MAN share many of the same animal behaviors? Yes.

Does that mean MAN is MORE of an animal, than anything else? No.

Just my opinion(s).

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" You are no match for Lord Gorlok! "

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N.O. is a sad comparison WS. I have never ever said that we don't SHARE animal responses. Yet I consider that MAN can, and does evolve faster, than any animal. That is a small, yet factual proof, of our intelligence, comparable to animals. Sharing DNA does not make us MORE animal, it actually makes us MORE THAN an animal.

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Man clearly does not evolve faster than any animal. You need to get your facts straight on this. The human animal doesn't produce fast enough, to evolve faster than a lot of insect species, rodents, etc, not to mention one-celled animals.

New Orleans is a recent event that shows what happens to humans when their support systems fail, and they are reduced to that which we all truly are, the human animal. Accept it.

Sharing DNA with animals does not make us "more" than an animal. That makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. If we didn't share any of the same DNA with animals, that might support your opinion. Or if our DNA was based on another basis than other animals, that might support your opinion. But the actual sharing of DNA shows that we are also animals - the human animal.

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Second I find it quite arrogant of you to discount " a few evolved areas". Those areas contain a wealth of intelligence, that no animal has.

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This is unproven. It would seem that certain Whale species and Octopus species seem to be very intelligent, as well, and capable of learning quite complex things. You need to be very, very careful when speaking of intelligence, and comparing it. You say "those areas" conatian a "wealth of intelligence" that no animal has. Again, you need to be very careful here. You are admitting (and Science is moving in on) the DNA areas that seem to promote Intelligence. That means that we may be able to promote the same type of intelligence in other species. Are they then not animals, anymore? Are you seriously suggesting, that just because some areas of DNA promote a human-type of intelligence, that such makes any species that has it no longer animals?

You entirely ignore the hard fact that when Man is seperated from his learning systems, that he is reduced to the animal that he is. You offer no explanation, nothing. You just ignore it.

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Does MAN share many of the same animal behaviors?

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Man shares them all, not just many. All animals share the same basic needs.

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Does that mean MAN is MORE of an animal, than anything else? No.

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This has nothing to do with what we are talking about. We are not discussing if man is more or less of an animal. We are talking about if man is an animal, or not.

Man is just an animal, albeit a thinking one. Evidence supports this. Your stance, however, has no evidence supporting it. It is opinion and belief.

Science agrees with me on this - the Human Animal even has an animal name - Homo Sapiens. Guess what Animal "family" we are a part of and organized into.