Topic awaiting preservation: The Christian Paradox (Page 7 of 7)

Your posts are very very defensive.

First you guess what I mean, while assuming the worst, and then you blame me for it.

Your all just a bit too paranoid don't ya think?

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Perhaps we should encourage all such thinkers to spend a year in Afghanistan or some other brutal fundamentalist regime?

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I only hope that such an attempt would show others that Islam supports itself with ancient non-muslim, ways of thinking.

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Meaning that if this did happen, I would hope that at the very least, people would see how archaic the islamic fundamentalists live.

Better?

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

Better? Not enough for me. I'm just really trying to understand what you mean, that's all.

What do you mean by archaic? Do you mean primitive? Impoverished? What?

At one time in history, the 7th century, the Muslim world was a center of learning, art, and high culture. They were even relatively tolerant of the Xian and Jewish minorities.

Many of the Islamic fundamentalists that are at the heart of blowing up innocent civilians are highly eduacted and come from very rich families. Bin Laden's family immensely wealthy and several of the 9/11 bombers came from very well off backgrounds as well.

So I'm still a bit unclear on your exact point.

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Better? Not enough for me. I'm just really trying to understand what you mean, that's all. What do you mean by archaic? Do you mean primitive? Impoverished? What?

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Archaic, meaning they deal with reality based on ancient ways of thinking. Sentences in a I.F.R. are riddled with the lack of human rights, and even common sense. Unless you are just as archaic as they R, to think that cutting off the hands of those who rob, is a law that WORKS. Let alone in this day & age.

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Many of the Islamic fundamentalists that are at the heart of blowing up innocent civilians are highly educated and come from very rich families.

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You discount the FACT, that I.F's will forever believe that humans fall into 2 categories. Muslim or UN-Muslim. Not Muslim against NON-Muslim. Again, this is not a great stretch of the original teachings of islam itself.

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Bin Laden's family immensely wealthy and several of the 9/11 bombers came from very well off backgrounds as well. So I'm still a bit unclear on your exact point.

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To instill the belief of killing innocents, will bring you closer to ALLAH, is NOT an Islamic belief, nor is it an intelligent decision. Being, "Very well Off", will not change that FACT!

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

speaking of defensive....

I'm sorry, but I have tried and tried....I just *don't* get what your point actually is.
That goes for the majority of the things you post.

I don't know what else to say at this point...

~shrug~

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Bugimus said:

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WarMage said:

When you come down to the finality of it, all of our ideas and dreams are not worth anything. Time will go on, and we will all eventually be blotted out.


This taken to its logical conclusion is what is called nihilism. If you really believe that is true then one can say in the words of one celebrated atheist:

quote:Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.

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What warmage said does in any logical sense lead to nihilism!
This way of thinking goes right along with the 'god hole' theory. Some people have one...some people don't.

You assume your god, and therefore everything else by necessity follows that.

To remove god from the picture does not remove meaning.

You may recall that I have very often stated that our lives have only one actual purpose: to recreate and die. Like every other species of plant or animal.

It is important to distinguish here the vast difference between meaning and purpose. The two are not interchangeable.

To acknowledge that life is devoid of the purpose some of us might wish were there is not to despair of living a life of meaning. It is not to 'believe in nothing' or to live a life without care, without love, without effort and consideration.
The meaning of life is what you make it.

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Bugimus said:

Xianity and Judaism have undergone reformations over the years that challenged and dealt with the fundamentalist/fanatical question.

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That does not by any stretch eliminate the reemergence of the same fanatacism that has plagued christianity throughout its history.
These reformations you speak of began right at the beginning, and have never stopped. To sugest that such intolerant fanatacism is done and gone because the religious institution has 'undergone reformations' is frightening. The famous reformation of the 16th century was hardly the first or last. We see a great many people and groups here in the US who would absolutely push into a strict theocracy, which would be no better than the arabic cultures we condemn as inhumane.

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Zynx said:

You discount the FACT, that I.F's will forever believe that humans fall into 2 categories. Muslim or UN-Muslim.

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If I'm understanding you correctly, then I agree that they do. Islamic fundamentalists believe that there is one true religion and you have those who follow it and those who don't. I'm not discounting that as a fact at all.

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Zynx said:

To instill the belief of killing innocents, will bring you closer to ALLAH, is NOT an Islamic belief...

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We need to be clearer about this. There are Islamic clerics who have specifically sanctioned the killing of innocents as a part of the faith. Bin Laden received "clearance", so to speak, for his acts of terror against civilians from a very radical branch of Islam that happens to be quite strong in Saudi Arabia. So it is, in fact, an Islamic belief of *some* Muslim clerics and their followers.

So if you do not think it is an Islamic belief, then what are you saying it is? Are you saying it is an illegitimate belief based on the Quran?

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So I find it particularly interesting that you believe this is how Xianity views interacting with the Holy Spirit.

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This has been my experiences with the Xian Faith. I have seen such practices in most of the churches that I used to attend to.

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My understanding of true interaction with the Holy Spirit is one that directly and consistently produces the following traits and actions from a believing Xian: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

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I find this rather interesting, because it is what is also put forward by Buddhists, Moslems, other religions, and also a state that one attains through meditation.

Many Athiests that I know have these traits - and they are definitely not connected in any way to a "Holy Spirit" Bugs.

It is also not something that I personally experienced as a Xian.

You will also recall the times when you have asked me about Meaning and Purpose. I explained back then that one could have both, without needing a god or a religion.

Bugs:

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There are a great many educated and decent people that are not always as vocal as the radicals who I think you underestimate.

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I'd like to see this group of educated and decent people being a LOT more vocal. When that brain-dead Rat Robertson called for the assassination of ??? (name escapes) I saw but ONE *moderate* religous leader denounce him and it wasn't much of a rebuke at that. There may have been more who denounced Robertson but it really doesn't matter... my point is; why are the 'moderates' not organizing and standing up against the far right? I find it rather odd.

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speaking of defensive....

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I'm only defensive of your insinuations.

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I'm sorry, but I have tried and tried....I just *don't* get what your point actually is. That goes for the majority of the things you post. I don't know what else to say at this point...~shrug~

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If ya don't get my jist, then don't post insinuations. Unless you feel the need to be the Ozone hammer, and I'm the nail. If so, then hammer away chum. Maybe we can both learn something from each other?

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

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If I'm understanding you correctly, then I agree that they do. Islamic fundamentalists believe that there is one true religion and you have those who follow it and those who don't. I'm not discounting that as a fact at all.

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Yes U R. Although that seems to be a rare happenstance around here. Of course it's my fault I'm so misunderstood, but I appreciate your patience with my lack of being a better communicator.

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We need to be clearer about this. There are Islamic clerics who have specifically sanctioned the killing of innocents as a part of the faith. Bin Laden received "clearance", so to speak, for his acts of terror against civilians from a very radical branch of Islam that happens to be quite strong in Saudi Arabia. So it is, in fact, an Islamic belief of *some* Muslim clerics and their followers.So if you do not think it is an Islamic belief, then what are you saying it is? Are you saying it is an illegitimate belief based on the Quran?

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Bug, I really wanted to distance myself from the possibility that such thnking is in the Quran, but it seems that I can not deny that fact. I wanted to believe that such thinking was solely the property of the fundamentalists. So what I feared seems to be true. That Islam itself is corrupt. I lived with my uncle for 6 + years, an indian muslim from South Africa. I always heard from him that it was clerics like the one you mentioned, and others who legitimize the killing of innocents, are bastardizing the Quran.

I guess I was wrong. I think I am now totally against this book, the Quran. It is now clear that this book expresses such fundamentalist principles. Yet now I think that a "good" muslim, is a "blind" muslim.

I think I need to go back to the "drawing board" on this one.

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

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Zynx said:

I'm only defensive of your insinuations.

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What insinuations would those be?

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Zynx said:

Unless you feel the need to be the Ozone hammer, and I'm the nail.

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Good god, man, what the fuck are you talking about?????

Zynx,

There are moderate Muslim theologians who do not support killing in the name of Islam.

It is mainly the thinking of fundamentalists who have interpreted the Quran in that way.

As far as I can tell, this is a particular branch of Islam that has gained in strength over the last several decades. I believe it has existed for centuries but it was kept in check by stronger factions such as the Ottomans.

I would like to believe your uncle was correct in saying these radical clerics are bastardizing the religion. Unfortunately, most Muslims are not allowed the option of interpretting the Quran so liberally. Islamic law is very strict in that regard.

I mentioned above the lack of reformation in Islam. I was talking about this very thing. There are verses in the Bible that one can interpret to mean to commit violence against unbelievers. But there are liberal factions and conservative factions within the Xian world. There is broad opinions on these issues and not every Xian walks in lock step on a great many issues.

This is simply not the case in the Muslim world. The moderates have a very weak voice and following and I'm not even sure there are many liberals at all. I think Turkey is one of the few (perhaps the only?) countries where a secular government was imposed and as a result, you find more of the moderate clerics there.

So I'm not sure you should conclude that Islam itself is corrupt. I don't think it needs to be that way. I think it's a matter of a more moderate interpretation becoming the norm and winning out over the militant fundamentalists. If this happens, it will take many years to play out with many more deaths and suffering I'm sorry to say. But it is the only way out of this mess that I can see.

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Zynx, I've known DL-44 for quite a while now. I really don't think he's trying to give you a hard time. I think he's just having trouble, as am I, in getting a clear meaning from your posts. Perhaps you can just take a little extra time to say what you want.

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Zynx,

There are a number of very civilized and polite people here, fortunately I am not so constrained.

I believe you may not be emotionally mature enough to take part in this...or any other forum aimed at anyone over the age of 16.

Your posts are often...usually; disjointed, incomplete as to thought or sentence structure, incomprehensible, off topic, irellevant and or just plain silly.

Then, when somone has the temeity to question your deathless prose with a simple 'Huh? Whuzzat mean?", you get defensive and accuse people of attacking you or otherwise trying to muzzle you.

Your own words muzzle you, no one here can very often figure out what you are trying to say and I must say, they have shown remarkable courtesy and patience in your case.

Perhaps you will find this plain talk easier to comprehend?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Nope, he is either trying to be enigmatic or is just plain stupid.

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This is the end result of someone not understanding what I post.

It's not that I'm defensive, it's that I am forced to be defensive, with people willing to pop off against a post they don't undestand, and I end up looking like some foolish half-ling, with a - 10 intelligence!

I could post something about a tree, and if I'm misunderstood, the rants continue, until the ends result is that I'm anti-tree hugging nazi, who want to burn the world down!

Can you see how I am the one forced to defend, NOT what I post, but rather what others now think of me, simply based on what others thought I meant, and so on, and so on?

It's like I'm stuck in a frickin' web!

I'm sorry I don't present a thesis during a discussion. I'm sorry I'm not as thurough as other. I'm sorry I don't google every single thought I have, before I post it.

DL, I guess I'm just sorry.

No one need change their ways, I still have to learn some here.

Enjoyable Ozone is. It's like I'm in a room with professors.

DIO, criticism accepted.

Bugs, I'd like to re-read your last post, and come back when I have finished my thesis on the idea.

Always I good read with you folks.

This is harder than I thought. Oops I thought!

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

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Zynx said:

Can you see how I am the one forced to defend, NOT what I post, but rather what others now think of me, simply based on what others thought I meant, and so on, and so on?

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No. Because nobody seems to understand what the hell you are trying to say in the first place. And many of us have tried *very* hard to figure it out, and to make sure you are not simply excluded from conversation.
But every time you come back, you do so either with a giant chip on your shoulder, or off on a tangent that spirals off with no trail to follow...

You seem to want to make this a matter of perception - but when a group as diverse as the one we have here seems to be unanimously not getting what you are saying....perhaps it's time to reevaluate what you are saying and how.

This is a group of people who disagree about almost everything.

But we all seem to agree that you don't make sense a great deal of the time.

~shrug~

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This is a group of people who disagree about almost everything.

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Truer words were never said! Amen!

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But we all seem to agree that you don't make sense a great deal of the time.

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And that is the bottom line.

Ok. Thank you both.

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "

James02=Gideon
Sorry, I got tired of the facade. Gideon is a cool name and all, but it isn't mine.

D-man, when I was re-registering my name the form said this site is for ages 13 or older. Although this particular forum may, at times, go completely over the heads of a few.

Zynx, I want you to do something for me. When you type a response, re-read it for content and coherency. I have incoherent thoughts, and have been doing that more recently, and a few Asylumites on here will agree that it will help.

So while we are on the subject of Islam, has anyone else had troubles finding out what Islam is really about? I read a book that was supposed to explain principals about it and all I got was some propaganda and a story about the foundation. Anyone know a good source for info?

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm

always a good place to start...

Read the Koran. It is THE book when it comes to Islam.

After all, if one were to ask "what book should I read that explains xianity?" - what would you answer?

WebShaman: This one without a doubt.

Now *that's* a fitting title if ever there was one =)

I'm still chuckling...

Oh Yah. Staight through the meat to te bone!

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Romans, or John. Romans is more of an argument piece, while I would recommend John for a new believer.

I'm sure that reading the Koran would give me an understanding of what Islam is. But, I was hoping more for a short verson with some explainations of key beliefs, unfortunately I don't have the time, or the drive, (right now) to read the Koran. Can anyone help me? I would go to some Christian sites that explain Islam (because I have found some), but I would think they are a little biased.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

James02-Gideon: You should try that book.

Sorry I had to suggest that one. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure you'll find some valuable and concise informations in it.

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NoJive said:

I'd like to see this group of educated and decent people being a LOT more vocal. When that brain-dead Rat Robertson called for the assassination of ??? (name escapes) I saw but ONE *moderate* religous leader denounce him and it wasn't much of a rebuke at that. There may have been more who denounced Robertson but it really doesn't matter... my point is; why are the 'moderates' not organizing and standing up against the far right? I find it rather odd.

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I've figured it's a rule of thumb in both religious and secular organizations that the "good" people are usually too busy to take up leadership positions. Often times it is because they are too busy being the "good" people they are. Unfortunately, this leaves a gap that is too easily and enthusiastically filled by the very vocal and cerebrally challenged.

I cringe when I hear Pat Robertson make those types of pronouncements. The left wing should do the same when their fringe makes similar ones; like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. writing that "Perhaps it was Barbour?s memo that caused Katrina, at the last moment, to spare New Orleans and save its worst flailings for the Mississippi coast." ( "For They That Sow the Wind Shall Reap the Whirlwind" )

Usually about the best it gets is a distancing from those fringe members but rarely an outright denunciation. This just seems to be the way the game is played from what I can tell.

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James, the link DL-44 provided is a very good place to get information. Perhaps you could start with that.
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(Edited by Bugimus on 10-12-2005 02:53)