Topic awaiting preservation: The Christian Paradox (Page 1 of 7)

Interesting piece:

http://harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html

Although on exceprt it gives the general gist of the arguement.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

Doesn't really surprise me much.

Odd for a country whose first significant Christian settlers left England because they wanted to focus more on the text of the Bible than the conventions of The Church, isn't it.

Of course, most people that claim to know about anything don't really know it very well.

Unfortunately true for the most part emps. I'm reading a really good book right now called Searching For God Knows What that discusses how western Christian theology seems to base itself on the idea that God likes the conservative, american republicans best and wants us all to be wealthy and comfortable, whereas Christ's message had nothing at all to do with that and if anything leans toward an opposite truth.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. Thomas Jefferson."

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

^^^

Very true words.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

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The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and
ower themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. Thomas Jefferson."

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Everybody has an opinion and that is just what it is. I put no great stock in Thomas Jefferson words. Sure, supposedly he was a statesman in the political way. Why does this make him a great person? Why should I believe what he believes? Follow the ideals of who you want, but that does not mean there is any truth in it as opposed to the truth of those who follow Christ in the way they choose. The wealthy rich, the poor destitute still love the Christ and follow his ways regardless of class barriers. Believe me, Jesus teachings are not simple. That are hard to follow. His way is a constant stuggle to live by in this world. We need some kind of faciliator to keep us in check when we loose our way. Just like our parents do and teachers do. So clergy, pastors, ministers, lay pople are a good way to help us.

His opinion is at least as valid as anything oozing out of the vatican.

More-so in fact as he had no agenda as does the vatican.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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More-so in fact as he had no agenda as does the vatican.

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Why pick on the Vatican. Many other denominations build wealth to self-enrich their personal portfolios. Benny Hinn, Swagget Ministries, John Olsteen, Rev Sun Moon, etc. . The fact that more people listen to what comes out of Rome or other failthful ministries than the words of TJ would lead me more apt to believe that God is with them. In other words, the following in numbers in Christian faithful should validate the Gospels. And the fact that a majority of citizens of the great and powerful US of A of which TJ is considersed a great statesmen adheres to faithful principles set out by their denominations instead of TJs ideals is something to think about.

PS Dio. Check out the Hallmark special tonite at 7. I think you will agree that nothing oozed out of John Paul II. who represented the Vatican. He truly was the most respected and holy man of his time. The fact that he traveled to world to give the simple message of "Be not afraid" and promoted peace and goodwill is not what I considered to be the ooze you think of. You see a very small picture of a larger one in regard to Christians. All you see is how you feel and not the feelings of others.

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In other words, the following in numbers in Christian faithful should validate the Gospels

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Because a lot of people buy into something, it must be right?
C'mon Jade.

I must honestly say that is just blatant stupidity.

Ok. then there are billions of stupid people out there. Right?

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Ok. then there are billions of stupid people out there. Right?

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Oh, someone should make that into a sig!

Scratch that. I want it on a T-Shirt!

The number of one billion of Xian is overated, because the church count as believer the persons who are baptized which is radically different since many people are not baptized by choice but it is imposed to them when they are several months old by their parents by bigotry, social pressure or tradition.


But indeed jade's sentence would make a cool sig/T-shirt.

Well, Poi these billions of Christians baptized or not still have a mind of their own to change their belief like you all have as they get older. Some will covert to your way of thinking and then maybe come back to the fold. Nothing is imposed on adults today. So why aren't masses taking your cue. Don't forget the bigtory is on the other side as well. These days no one is pressured, ridiculed, beaten, killed in the name of Christianity in the days of old. Why is Christiantiy still growning by leaps and bounds even today? What do you think the reason is?

The reason probably is that really few people know they can cancel their baptem, and a hell lot of people actually like the folklore and scenic aspect of a wedding in a church though they are strong atheists. All those people are still counted as Xians.

I know nobody who is pressured by Xianity, but almost everybody I know have been baptized without their approval and most of them are atheists. Ok being imposed something when you can neither talk or walk is not really "pressure", but it's not what I call free will or respect either. Actually I know nobody who choosed to be baptized, and those who are not baptized are jews, budhist or muslims.



(Edited by poi on 08-16-2005 00:27)

John Paul was a jerk!

This is the guy who told millions of catholics in africa they couldn't use condoms, condemning tens of thousands to death from aids and causing thousands of children to be born already afflicted with aids.

Dogma over reality.

Very humanitarian.

This is the guy who actively supported efforts to move and protect pedophile priests around the world.

Nice guy. Makes one wonder about his own sexual proclivities.

No, you catholics may be snowed by all that papal bullshit, but there are millions of peole who see jp and the Catholic church for the hypocritical farce that it is.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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These days no one is pressured, ridiculed, beaten, killed in the name of Christianity in the days of old.

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What? What about...Ireland? Protestants vs Catholics. Been sleeping through recent history?

How about...the Inuit folk? Only recently, has the Church drawn back from persecuting their Shamans. How many suicides does the Church have on its hands because of this? Thank god the Shamans went underground, and managed to preserve some of their culture and teachings. They are slowly, very slowly, starting to come back, and Inuits are re-discovering their heritage.

No thanks to the Church.

And Po1 raise an enormously important point - in Europe, a lot of baptisms, etc get done due to social pressures on the parents to do so with their child (and the children themselves, if they are not) - and of course, the nice bribery - presents candy, money, you name it! Not to mention the burial place, the wedding in the Church, etc.

Such is the norm here in Germany - I couldn't even STOP it from being done to my daughter (lawfully).

I think the total number of real, practicing xians are a fraction of the number "counted".

So, as usual Jade, you don't know what you are talking about.

Doesn't it get tiring?

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Ok. then there are billions of stupid people out there. Right?

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First of all - YES!

Second of all, you tragically miss the point - AGAIN.

The point being:

Just because a lot of people beleive something, doesn't make it true.

Stating that it does, is, as I said, just blatant stupidity.

Hitler had the support of almost of all of Germany, Austria, Italy, and more. Does that make him right?

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Don't forget the bigtory is on the other side as well.

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And in 2nd grade, that argument might get you somewhere. You think it is ok to be a bigot simply becuase other people are bigots too?

Grow up.

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Ok. then there are billions of stupid people out there. Right?

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Yup, you have lots of company.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Thank you jade. With your no pressure claim your reminded me a documentary made in US I saw several weeks ago. It was about a sort of group of therapy where people having discovered their homo/bi-sexuality were "cured" thanks to the faith the Jesus Christ the über lord. The faithful person really pressured the gay men. That was incredible how they kept telling them how bad and unpure it was to be appealed by some body of the same sex, and that by doing that they were simply throwing their soul in the flames of hell. They even pressured the family and children of the gay men who felt guilty and counted the number of time they had been appealed by another man each day. I watched the whole documentary with my jaw on the floor in awe.

Thank God he was cured of his homosexuality. Praise God Almighty. Homosexuality is of unpure spirit. What power of God thru a human person. And more power to those who perform these kind of exorcisms of unclean spirits. Amen. Alleluia Alleluia Alleluia.

I am in awe of these wonderous works.

I am merely in awe...of such collossal ignorance.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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The reason probably is that really few people know they can cancel their baptem, and a hell lot of people actually like the folklore and scenic aspect of a wedding in a church though they are strong atheists. All those people are still counted as Xians.

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This is what I don't understand, if your athiest now and were baptized in a ritual when you were younger, how can you have a problem with what your parents did if you don't believe now in the purpose of the ritual of baptism. You would have to believe the ritual was meaningless. Therefore it should have no impact on you as a person and bind you or on anyone else who chooses another sect or becomes athiest. So why all the whinning about it. Move on and forget about it. Your so concerned with your fellow man being trapped in a sect by birthright into a religious community when it shouldn't offened you in the least. You and anyone else can unbind yourself by freewill. If a child was baptized as an infant or at 6, 12, years old. They are not bound by their baptism by this physical world, only in the spiritual if you have a belief in it. So your concerns have no merit.

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Thank God he was cured of his homosexuality. Praise God Almighty. Homosexuality is of unpure spirit. What power of God thru a human person. And more power to those who perform these kind of exorcisms of unclean spirits. Amen. Alleluia Alleluia Alleluia.

I am in awe of these wonderous works.

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Cured?

Wonderous works?

You are a buffoon Jade.

Plain and simple.

As for Poi's point: the number of christians in the world, which are always so proud to tout, is based on these baptisms - many of which are, as you said, meaningless - and so the 'billions of christians' that you are so proud to be herded with don't actually exist in the number you claim.

I don't expect you to grasp the point, but there it is.

(Edited by DL-44 on 08-16-2005 17:57)

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Thank God he was cured of his homosexuality. Praise God Almighty. Homosexuality is of unpure spirit. What power of God thru a human person. And more power to those who perform these kind of exorcisms of unclean spirits. Amen. Alleluia Alleluia Alleluia.

I am in awe of these wonderous works.

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What a crock.

Well, at least Jade has finally showed her true colors.

Did I say they were meaningless to the God Almighty? I think not. You didn't understand. Its meaningless to you. Therefore you should not care one iota.

Most of unbaptized Christians profess to be Christian. If they were not baptized earlier, they can still be baptized of their own free will. Just check, out most protestant denominations who wait till their child or adult children are realy to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Most will still consider themselves Christian if their family is Christian but negleted to get them baptized. Did you understand that? Since I am in the baptism ministry at my church, I see many age groups being baptized. Especially adults. So its really the opposite. There are more Christians undocumented. So there are more self-proclaimed Christians out there that the tally sheets tell.


Web, Where have you been? I have always shown my true colors. What most of you don't understand is that we do not focus on the individual homosexual person but the unclean spirit that dwells within them. We take issue with that spirit. You take the issue of Christians vs Homosexual as very personal. What you don't understand, you put a face of bigtory, hyprocrasy on those who defend the natural law of God. You call us righteous do gooders who should keep their nose in their own affairs. But to turn away and show indifference is contrary to the Christian belief. Would I rather adhere to the laws of God or the laws of the US Supreme Court? I say if the laws of the land are in conlict with God's laws I don't adhere or follow them. In the long run who will I have pleased, God or the US Government.. Therefore we practice patience, love, kindness and much prayer for God to overcome in these persons. We Christians believe the human person created by God belongs to God and no other. However cast off that person believes he is, God still dwells in them. And this power given to us in prayers, gives us the power ourselves to help banish these unclean spirits from persecuting these indiviuals. A man or woman who is a practicing homosexual or lesbian being at odds with the natural human law of this world results in a hard, unhappy and depressed life. Its documented that most do not have long life spans because of the anguish, self-doubt and trouble from the mainstream that they exeperice. I don't believe that this would be the way their life was intended by God.. We as Christians believe they were created for eternal happiness and it is the hope of all Christians that they beneffit from the graces of God that are given freely.

(Edited by jade on 08-16-2005 20:42)

Where the hell do you get all that rubbish from.

Crazy ass extremists. Are you out there burning witches and stoning adulturers as well? The bible says you should, so, go on, get to it.

Dan @ Code Town

I am not a bible christian.

You're are not much of a xian at all, you are a bewildered fanatic judging by what you post.

If there were any power in your mythical god, if baptism had any actual effect, if your assenine theory of spirits held any water, then baptism would rid the child of the evil spirit and they would never grow up to be gay.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

All the more reason to burn witches jade... why not keep up with a good ol' tradition of catholic church after all? Tool.


edit: beside your stupidity is really starting to piss everyone off, get into your head dimwit:

it has been said thousands of times before, homosexuality is natural, it has been recorded in nature amongs various spieces of mammals. I know you will just shrug it off and continue being stupid till your death, but please shut up with your rhetoric, you sounds like that moron Jerry Falwell.




(Edited by Ruski on 08-16-2005 22:07)

(Edited by Ruski on 08-16-2005 22:16)

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If there were any power in your mythical god, if baptism had any actual effect, if your assenine theory of spirits held any water, then baptism would rid the child of the evil spirit and they would never grow up to be gay.

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Evidently you do not understand the concept of the Christian Baptism. Baptism doesn't save you. It initiates you into the family of Jesus Christ. It contains no magic powder to ward off evil spirits. Christians must work out their salvation. Thats Baltimore Catechism 101. Peter was baptized, Paul was baptized yet they still suffered weak faith at times.

Why can't you be loving to the Christian as your are to the homosexual? Your guilty of accusations against Chrisitans. Aren't you that pot calling the kettle black too ?

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All the more reason to burn witches jade... why not keep up with a good ol' tradition of catholic church after all? Tool.

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This chronic accusation really gets old.

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Homosexuality is of unpure spirit.

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Look who is talking hypocrite...

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Thank God he was cured of his homosexuality. Praise God Almighty. Homosexuality is of unpure spirit. What power of God thru a human person. And more power to those who perform these kind of exorcisms of unclean spirits. Amen. Alleluia Alleluia Alleluia.

I am in awe of these wonderous works.

---

Please, tell me this is some 37th degree humour. Please. If it's not you certainly deserves the award of the biggest prick I've ever talked with.

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These days no one is pressured, ridiculed, beaten, killed in the name of Christianity in the days of old.

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You might say 1994 is not "these days", but ... Hello!! the genocyd in Rwanda was made in part in the name of God. Some priests even mass murdered their fidels. And today, those who dare to question the existence of god there are still finger pointed.

Oh, and to finish on the baptem point. You say one shouldn't care of being baptized without his approval, especially in early age, if he's atheist. But there's 3 problems :

1. the total lack of respect of the freedom of cult of that person in its early age,
2. the baptem does mean something to Xians, something really important, and as such it should not be taken lightly even by atheists
3. how can Xians accept that people are baptized without their approval, and doing nothing to let them know they can cancel it ruins the meaning and sacred of the baptem.



(Edited by poi on 08-17-2005 01:04)

Poi.

You accuse me of being intolerant, but you must see how you come off in your post. And many others I add as well. Calling posters bad names. Using words like ignorant, stupid, crazy, bigot, hypocrite, prick, false xian,etc. only valdiates the attitude or characteristic of the godless mind. And its only because I don't agree with your way of thinking that you resort to name calling. Didn't you ever graduate to the view that you can calmly discuss without being verbally abusve? You seem intolerant yourself of me. Does using bad words make you feel bigger, stronger and more in power. It must give you great satisfacation. Why not try to change Christians opinions of non-believers?

No human person can change the concept of belief of a Christian baptism. Its been going on for 2000 centuries and will never change. People will go on baptizing their children as infants, teens or adults long after you have passed. So, accept it. Like we have to accept that some will never believe in the Savior.

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ou take the issue of Christians vs Homosexual as very personal.

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Really? Please show me where I said this - I really don't appreciate others putting words in my mouth, or telling me what and how I think. I take the issue of anything vs Homosexuality seriously - my people were (and are) obviously more tolerant along these lines, and Homosexuality is an ingrained part of Nature (which according to your faith, was created by God - so, God apparently doesn't have a problem with homosexuality - but your system of Faith does).

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What you don't understand, you put a face of bigtory, hyprocrasy on those who defend the natural law of God. You call us righteous do gooders who should keep their nose in their own affairs.

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Natural "law" of God, Jade? Can yu perhaps show this to me? Or do you mean Nature? If so, Homosexuality is a natural part of Nature (and accordingly, your god's natural "law").

And nowhere in the Bible, does it explicitly say that Homosexuality is wrong - it is certainly not one of the Ten Commandments "Thou shall not lay down with your Brother."

You seem to be pretty messed up inside. You have my infinite sorrow, to be so lost.

That still doesn't excuse your narrow-mindedness, nor your inability to grasp reality.

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No human person can change the concept of belief of a Christian baptism. Its been going on for 2000 centuries and will never change. People will go on baptizing their children as infants, teens or adults long after you have passed. So, accept it. Like we have to accept that some will never believe in the Savior.

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*Yawn*

There is one saying, that proves always to be true, Jade - "And this too, shall pass..."

Even the Aborigines had to bow before this one saying - after more than 60,000+ years.

(Edited by WebShaman on 08-17-2005 04:08)

jade: Get down of your high horse. I only called you prick after you spit your venom at homosexuals. Treating that sexual orientation as if it was a disease that needs to be cured or some kind possession by a demon. Did I used birds name with you before your outburst towards homosexuals ? Frankly when I first read it, I didn't knew what to think about it. I really wondered if you were sincere or trying a new form of humour. I've heard some people not understanding homosexuality, but you're the first one I hear calling it a disease or an unpure behaviour. I thought that kind speech was of the past.

I have many friends who are xian and I respect them.

They are safe, confident and comfortable in their faith and have no need to spout the hatred, ignorance and stupidity we hear from you.

As for you uninformed claim people don't get beaten or killed in the name of xianity anymore...just last year there were several people beaten to death in the states and one in Canada...for being homosexual (one wasn't but some god-fearing ass decided he was).

You and the televangelists portray all that is wrong with religion. You are exactly the sort of person they prey upon. It matters not if you don't watch or listen to those bible thumpers, you are still the weak-minded sort to whom they appeal.

2000 centuries? Really Jade. 2000 centuries ago this was certainly a happier world, as your faith had not yet been invented.

You are a sad and sorry example of a human being I must say.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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how can Xians accept that people are baptized without their approval

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For any who may not already know, I think it got started when people began to think their babies would go to hell if they died before accepting christ, since we are all "born in sin". It's a stupid idea to begin with.

Jade--you bring it on yourself dear. Lighten up. They think I'm nuts too, but they don't call me names. At least none that I take any offense to.

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I've heard some people not understanding homosexuality, but you're the first one I hear calling it a disease or an unpure behaviour. I thought that kind speech was of the past.

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That's nothing. You should hear my mother in law when she starts "rebuking the demons" in me and her son. She'd make even Jesus himself blush LOL. I fork the evil eye and hiss at her just to piss her off.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

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I've heard some people not understanding homosexuality, but you're the first one I hear calling it a disease or an unpure behaviour.

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Hear that kind of shit (and far worse) every day over here, Poi.