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_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-08-2006 15:38

Hello world.

I am still unable to edit my site for some days, no ftp access, no posting, I don't even have the time to bother
finding a free host to post stuff under contraints that hurt both the visitor and me.

But I am writing a few nifty papers, in french, for my class, in addition to the default OpenGL course:
it turns out that I now am turning into a freak as far as gfx development is concerned (not that I was bad, but I've kind of leaped forward fast).

One of them is about gfx algorithmy in general, from 2d to 3d to 2.5 d, ending with an openning on GLSL, the current advanced programming technology for graphics.

And I think it manages to sum up a lot of things.
It is aimed at people who have a grasp of languages like Java or C though, anybody can read it, it would bore people who have no interest in gfx or coding, and the code samples will only be useful to coders

So, if you feel you can give it a worthy review, I would *much* appreciate sending a fragment of it (outline and first two pages)
to someone who would act as a... beta reader?

Interested? Just let me know.

TwoD
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Sweden
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 04-08-2006 21:00

Too bad I don't read french
I would have loved to read those papers, any chance of a translated "release"?

/TwoD

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-08-2006 21:11

I didn't paid attention to the fact you said 'in french'. So I guess I should give it a go. Could you please send the preview at p01 [at] opera [dot] com

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-09-2006 03:34

No prob for the english version, thanks guys. I think it's aimed at people with less experience than you, but your input
will still be gold (hell, platinum). Be informed that only the GLSL part and some of the OGL are likely to be new to you.

Just give me a couple of days: it's 3 am and I am still finishing an ogl project which includes bezier curves, bezier based volumes, rendering to textures,
mp3 via fmod, some alpha blending play with environment maps, and of course a decent timer.

I have a Java test on monday, basic stuff.

And.. *blushes*.

I have a vb gui design assignment for the same monday. Haven't even seen the teacher yet, but I'll make him cry for having challenged me on something like vb.
He should be in jail. I am in for a 6/6, then I'll call the police.

The paper will reach both of you shortly, though.

Moon Shadow
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Rouen, France
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 04-09-2006 14:27

I don't know if I can give a "worthy review", but I'd be interested in reading that too

If you care to share, email is in my profile.

----
If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-10-2006 18:38

Worthy review == constructive criticism.

Not worthy review == "it suxx0rz becoz I want to do DirectX using VeeBee and I've tried to copy/paste
your code to veebee studio .originalnaming.net 2036, but it didn't run, said sumthing 'bout syntax.
Your syntax suxx0rz, I rule."

...

So rest assured you do qualify.

Still am utterly busy, though, I've kind of gone past the point called "overload", thank God, easter is coming. But my lil' paper won't have to wait that long to reach you.

TwoD
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Sweden
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 04-10-2006 23:53

Me be caveman on OpenGL thingy....
But I do know a thing or two about algorithms and gfx

2.5d sounds interesting, do you mean somehting like isometric graphics?

Will keep an eye out for the english version!

Caveman now go sleep... night is late... big things in morning...

/TwoD

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-11-2006 22:47

2.5D usually refer to rendering à la Wolfenstein 3D or Doom. Where a 2D map is displayed in pseudo 3D.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-12-2006 01:06

Not only, not to me. 2.5d refers to "all sorts of things" that are based on a
2d map for 3d calculations, eg. bumpmapping, displacement maps, heightfields, wolfenstein and raycasted stuff,
and so forth..

That part of the tut focuses particularly on displacement actually, which is groundwork for some nice GLSL atuff:
parallax or dot3 bumpmaps, for instance, or normal mapping.

It sure won't teach you how to do all those things in detail: there are tons of tuts and ready-made code to download anyway,
it's more like "tying ends together and guiding you through my very own -book of shadows-".

Eg. drawing a line through essential topics of gfx algorithmy, allowing you to better select what suits your needs,
which algorithms, alternatives, shortcuts to some so good looking effects - yet so cheap in terms of cpu.

Book of lights actually.

wrayal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Insane since: May 2003

posted posted 04-12-2006 03:08

Mauro: I'm probably too inexperienced to be worth wasting the time on, but if you'd be prepared to, I'd love to take a read over anything you're willing to provide, and try to provide constructive criticism about it! (By the way, I'm happy with either language - I've got French exams coming up!)

Wrayal

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-12-2006 18:51

Now that everybody wants it, I am starting to feel the pressure ... will have to tweak it a little more to match your expectations.

And I am still in "hectic" mode, running from duties to cuties and the other way round.. Work makes for stress, stress makes for need to have fun, need to have fun makes for charming encounters, who eat up time, causing more stress, and so on and so forth.

And it all ends up in one giant infinite loop. It's so hard, yet so good to be me

Unless I am dead by then, Friday == easter holidays, then I can sort my stuff out and mail the whole of you.
(looks at the past 10 hours spent at work, at the course he should attend tonight, at the party and hottie he'll see right after, and at the next day of work, and ponders...)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-12-2006 21:58

party ? hottie ? there's nothing to ponder. Forget the brain twisting paper and Go!

TwoD
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Sweden
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 04-13-2006 16:33

*slaps himself* Should have thought of the old classics before opening my mouth...

Wrayal, didn't you make that wraytracer and stuff? I'd not call that inexperienced lol

now about that party, when and where??

/TwoD

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-13-2006 19:39

Wherever I am, whenever I am not coding, feel free to join, chill, and enjoy yourself as much as I do.

wrayal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Insane since: May 2003

posted posted 04-15-2006 04:51

TwoD: Nah, that's just pure straight up maths, not really that hard (I mean, I wrote that when I was 13). It's slightly easier because you can solve everything the directly logical way, and it all works. The other methods are harder, because they rely upon 'tricks' that are much cleverer, but much less obvious. As an example, the collisions between two polygons is a fairly trivial bit of maths. However, finding that point in a 4d universe, in an efficient way, is very much less so! (IMHO)

Mauro: Thanks very much, and please do feel free to get the hectic sections out of the way first!

wrayal

(oops, just occured to me, this paper is graphics only, but my general ideas still hold...I think ;P)

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-15-2006 14:21

French version of the early draft sent to P01 and Moonshadow, for now. Because it's in french.
They have a very different point of view, methinks (extreme coder and extreme gfx artist perspectives), so let's see what they think,
then I can evolve, translate, and send the next draft to the whole of you.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-15-2006 15:20

Quick translation of the index:

  • Introduction - on illusionism
  • 2d algorithmy

    • Structure of a pixel


    • Transparency / blending


    • 2d transforms


      • Translation



      • Rotation



      • Scaling




    • Sub-pixels / interpolation


  • 2.5d algorithmy

    • The notion of 2.5d space


    • Bumpmaps


    • Displacement maps


    • Voxels


  • 3d algorithmy and OpenGL

    • Sample modelling methods


      • Explicit solids



      • Implicit solids



      • Revolution solids



      • Swept surfaces




    • Animation timing


    • The OpenGL lighting model


    • Procedural textures


    • Rendering to textures


    • Sample multipass effects


    • The rendering pipeline


  • Shaders

    • An introduction to vertex shaders


    • An introduction to fragment shaders




poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-15-2006 20:42

_Mauro: Have you sent it to my address at opera ? We're at the Gathering and I can't be bothered to set up my personnal email account on a work laptop

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-15-2006 22:07

Yeah, I did. What are you doing at the Gathering if it's not top secret?

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-15-2006 23:43

Got it.

Well, Opera has a booth at the Gathering showing what we do. We gave 2 seminars ( one about web standards, the other about widgest ) plus a 'working for Opera' face-hunt seminar. We've had a widget competition with a bad ass computer ( costing over 6,000 USD ) for the 1st price. Mainly we explain to anyone what a widget is, how to make them and help everyone who ask for some help in JavaScript, HTML, CSS, ...

I have to review the 26 entries we've had at the widget compo, but I'll check your paper before we leave.

wrayal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Insane since: May 2003

posted posted 04-16-2006 00:19

Mauro: I'm happy reading French . But congrats anyway, I more than happy to wait!

poi: "1st price" - 'prix' translates as 'prize' as well as 'price'

wrayal

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-16-2006 00:43

Wrayal, I need an email adress for that.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-16-2006 00:47

wrayal: sorry for the typo

... 20 widgets to go
[edit] the security crew at the Gathering is really zen. I've been sitting at ~2m from the ground for a while, on top of our booth, with the laptop on my lap. And none of them asked me to go down 'coz I could fall flat on the LCD screens and laptop right below me. [/edit]



(Edited by poi on 04-16-2006 01:00)

TwoD
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Sweden
Insane since: Aug 2004

posted posted 04-16-2006 03:37

Judging by the index, it looks great!
I'm sure I'm gonna learn something from this

Poi: Do you know if there's any chance of Opera showing up at DreamHack Winter?

/TwoD

wrayal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Insane since: May 2003

posted posted 04-16-2006 13:22

poi: Sorry, it felt rude as soon as I had hit the submit button, but having claimed I knew French, it seemed like a form of evidence ;p

_Mauro: wrayalATgmailDOTcom, changing the AT and DOT appropriately. Thanks very much, looks like a very exciting piece of work!

wrayal

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-16-2006 17:56

Paper sent, you are welcome.
The original intent was raising the level of gfx programming in my class: they are decent engineers, not extreme coders yet, they needed a hand -badly-.

So I am glad it reaches a broader audience, and am surprised everyday by the reactions.
The contents is a bit "light" for the time being in terms of algorithmy, but interesting in terms of "sharing a savoir-faire (know how)".

I've got to set the focus on other priorities for a few days... And yes, among them, four more ladies, some new, some already known, some discovered in a new light, all cool,
some amazing. For once, I may even pick one and stick around for some time. Time will tell. I've become terribly picky and it's getting worse everytime I meet a new girl.

And then there is the VB teacher who got mad when I told him pissy poor VB6 refused to start on my pc, and I had used VB 2005.
It's above his cracky butt's head... .Net? Internet? The 3rd millenium? Got to solve the VB 6 setup on my laptop and code some s* interface or he might start whining again, and that's
painful to see.

P01, they're used to seeing all sorts of flying things and geeks, so no surprise if they're not stunned by a castor sitting on top of a booth.
Reminds me of yodel's "Wildlife" documentary, shown at the Gathering 00: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=11868

wrayal
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Insane since: May 2003

posted posted 04-19-2006 00:41

Mauro: I've read what you sent me, but I think I'd better make my comments in english to avoid misunderstandings (I'm sure your english will be better than my french!).

I thought the introductory section was well written and very interesting - it's always interesting to read about the difference between the light entering your eye, and what your brain actually "sees".

There was one mathematical mistake that stuck out - 255*255*255=/=2^24. I'm guessing you mean 256^3 ;p

In particular, I thought the use of pictures throughout was good.

One other thing that might be of interest to discuss whilst explaining pixels is the concept of a sub-pixel font, which may further help to illustrate the concept.

(I think I may have spotted a couple of grammatical mistakes, but it would be very arrogant of me to point them out :\)

Frankly, I'm sorry I don't have more to say - some of it was new to me, such as the alpha/transparency stuff which I've only looked at in a very minor way in the past, so all I can say is it was very informative and an effective way of learning.

I'm sorry if I was meant to e-mail you, as PO1 and Moonshadow may have done, but I thought it may aid discussion if I wrote this here. I have some bad news though - I've been banned from the network at school (long story...) so I won't be able to participate on here during the week from now on for a while

Again, many congratulations, I very much enjoyed reading it.

Wrayal

INSANEdrive
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Therapy Department 117 :Skining and Mods
Insane since: Jan 2005

posted posted 04-19-2006 01:06

Its a Pitty Its In french... otherwise I would be more then happy to read this...

I mean... Already know a bunch about Bump (Normal) Maps, Alphas,Shaders...Ect.


Meh... Good Luck on Your Paper...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There Is A Fine Line Between Genius and Insanity... I Have Erased this line

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 04-19-2006 01:15
quote:
There was one mathematical mistake that stuck out - 255*255*255=/=2^24. I'm guessing you mean 256^3 ;p



Errr...it is the same thing. 2^24=256^3

Normally, when using bit values, one does present it in powers of 2 - as was done here with 2^24.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-19-2006 08:37

Wrayal is right, it's 256^3, not 255.
And you're right in spotting the defects, that's what I want.
And you'd be right, not arrogant, in pointing out potential grammatical mistakes (although I have an excellent french, I happen to mix up the three languages I speak).

AND.. the "sub-pixels" are up next: the "it's interesting and I've learnt something" bit
makes for more motivation.

Thanks Insanedrive as well, as I said, an english version is in the works, and about getting "lucky"...
well, I am not paid, don't get marks on this: I just happen to have encompassed the whole program
of our gfx course in one single project, the first, delivered a couple of months ago, and now I want to help.

So this is here to spread out info about a passion... it's for free, I don't need luck

But I'll take your wishes for the competition(s) I may/will probably enter this year.

(Edited by _Mauro on 04-19-2006 08:42)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-19-2006 10:23

So far so good.

I just spotted a few phrases that sound more like a casual discussion than a paper, but it might be a difference inherent to Swiss French and French, or more likely that you know your audience won't bother.

When you say that the RGB components must be clipped within [ 0 ; 255 ], and give the example [ 255 ; 0 ; 512 ], I think you should strengthen your point and say that, after the bitwise magic to combine the components, this color would actually be interpreted as [ 255 ; 2 ; 0 ].

About the blitting, you say that the back buffer is copied to the front buffer. But usually ( I mean in an application where you have access to the hardware, like in C/C++ using DirectX/OpenGL ) the two pointers are simply swapped so swapping the screens is free.

But that's a good beginning.

TwoD: Dunno about DreamHack, but we'd like to be at the Solsoken and the Assembly. I just hope it won't compromise my possibility to enter the browser demo compo at the Assembly.

wrayal: Don't worry. I didn't take your remark badly. Actually I appreciate when people spot my mistakes and misspellings.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-19-2006 11:28
quote:

the two pointers are simply swapped so swapping the screens is free.



I know, but page flipping details are secondary to the broader audience who doesn' know
what a pointer is (or to Java only developpers for that matter), and are part
of a basic OGL course, which is not the aim of my paper.

Thanks for the pointers and the time spent reviewing, will post again when an english version is available. Actually, I will set the following milestones:

1) Filling it up to the 3d part (2 and 2.5 d covered)
2) Translating

More on this sometime soon.

Moon Shadow
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Rouen, France
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 04-20-2006 21:45

Indeed, it was a good read. And in my humble opinion, you mixed well explanations, examples and images so that any reader would enjoy reading the paper.

Nonetheless I have some minor remarks

Whenever you detail a technique (e.g. bitwise operators and masks or blending modes), it is good to include a link to a good ressource explaining more about this technique. Of course it is not compulsory, however if the reader didn't understand everything or wants to know more about something you mentionned, it is really appreciated.

I didn't spot grammar mistakes... I would have re-formulated some sentences, but as Poi said above, it is probably because of the differences between our languages. Otherwise, I would recommend avoiding the use of so many quotes, in most cases they are not needed. I spotted a typing mistake at the top of page 6 too : 'une résultat' should be 'un résultat'.

Very few points would require more explanation to newbies. See what Poi said above... And about transparency, perhaps it would be useful to detail that 0 means no transparency and 255 full transparency, as well as joining an image and it's alpha channel as an example. But since the intended audience is made of engineers, there shouldn't be any problem at all.

Other than that, good work

----
If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-20-2006 22:03
quote:
And about transparency, perhaps it would be useful to detail that 0 means no transparency and 255 full transparency

usually it's the other way round. 0 = fully transparent, 255 = fully opaque.

Moon Shadow
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Rouen, France
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 04-20-2006 22:13

Ohhh I think I need a good coffee... Yeah it's the other way round - sorry for that.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-21-2006 20:04

Coolness, thanks guys, will take all these in account when reformatting.
The odd swiss cheesy grammar should be corrected as well, the default french language comes from France after all..

Zyprexa
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jan 2006

posted posted 04-25-2006 02:39

Have you consider writing your software
in the relativily new C# language.

It is currently cross platform if you use
Mono.

Zyprexa
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jan 2006

posted posted 04-25-2006 02:47

Just a question is Microsoft Certification
worth anything when writing your
test in VB or C#?

This fall there will be new certifications
path in VB and C#. The only thing good
about it is there will be one less test. You
will have to take one more test if you
wish to be a developer.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 04-25-2006 07:25

Zyprexa: FYI I've heard that a few companies directly throw the resumés mentionning Microsoft Certifications into the trashcan for the reason that 1: according to them any idiot can get an MSC, 2: if someone feels worthy to mention having an MSC, he/she doesn't have the mind set of the persons working in the company.

_Mauro
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2005

posted posted 04-25-2006 07:57

Err.. did you say CeeShark? I mean. C crap? I mean.

I am a proficient Java, C, C++ developer and about to get a uni degree in software engineering.
While some companies heavilly rely on MS. I LOATHE MS.

As a Java developer, to me, C# is a parody, like.... not a funny one.
I'm about sure your intent was good, but, well, it's kinda like saying to a brazilian pro soccer player "have you ever considered getting a real career in Tadjikistan?" More or less.

The answer is ~no way~ as far as I am concerned. Plus you forgot to read what I was saying....
I mentionned that VB assignment because it was a real pain in the behind and I found the teacher pathetic at sticking to VB6 for a high level course.

I LOATHE VB teachers too. At least, stubborn idiots like mine.

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