From: The Leather Wheeliechair Insane since: Dec 2004
posted 02-13-2007 09:10
Intelligent Design, in case you haven't heard, is a movement to have a sort of creationism taught in science classes. The logic goes something like this:
"You can't explain something. That means [God/a 'Designer'/the cosmic consciousness/Aliens] did it."
If you believe this based on your faith and your personal relationship with whatever power, so be it. How, though, can people for one second be persuaded into believing that this is science!? Falsifiability is one of the major underlying concepts of science, and we strive for verifiability. How do you falsify "God did it."?
---.sig-----------------------------------------
I have not fallen from grace; Grace has fallen from me.
"If I close my mind in fear, please pry it open"
- Metallica "Outlaw Torn"
'intelligent design' is also (was first, AFAIK) just the notion that the design of things in nature is intelligent, plain and simple. While the creationists have certainly hijacked this terminology, you don't have to believe in "intelligent design" _and_ creationism (or anything religious or supernatural, for that matter).
Resio - there are an awful lot of thigns in that statement that could be subject to large debate, but the bottom line is - whatever anyone's concept of 'intelligent design' is, 'Intelligent Design' is a very definite thing, and one that must be dealt with if we wish to keep religion from being taught as science.
Science has always been based on credible evidence, whereas creationism is base on theological ideas which have no evidence whatsoever. Also science explains the nature of the universe whereas religeon gives an opinion as to what the scientific explanation may mean.
quote:Science has always been based on credible evidence...
Disagree.
The doctoring of findings, or simply ignoring said findings, in studies and experiments happens all the time in order to swing corporate and government grant money, gain political positioning, etc...
Everything is propaganda, whether good or bad is in the eye of the beholder; but a lot of science has an agenda behind it these days too.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 08-09-2007 16:45
quote: jade said:
I wonder if threads like these have magical powers, that draw peeps like Jade to them as a light does a moth?Does this mean you kinda miss me WS????
They really do!
Ram - while true (wag the dog by the tail is everywhere), I think what is meant here is that the principle (or foundation, if you will) of Sciene is that it is based on credible, reliably repeatable evidence.
So if I make claims about something and want it to be Scientific, I have to provide the proof that can be reliably repeated by others. This method basically includes it's own error checking - for surely others will want to reproduce reliably my findings as well (especially if the claims I am making are either refuting others already made, or are extraordinary or controversial in nature).
If they can't, then I have a problem.
Of course, I can put spin on the findings, bamboozle the Faithful, pull the wool over the eyes of the Masses...but this often means having to go to extraordinary lengths to do so, which in and of themselves becomes telling.
At some point, the house of cards fall - the advantage of Science.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
The scientific community is full of people, just like any other. And people are fundamentally flawed...
Political organizations and corporations have a lot at stake in manipulating scientific findings, of course, and have done so ad nauseum. Manipulating and covering up the findings doesn't change them, however, and engaging in bad science doesn't change what science is actually about.
and so is nature, which is why the Design is anything but intelligent.
For one thing, the overall concept of "eat or be eaten" is pretty lame - not a very intelligent start.
I think "nature red in tooth and claw" is more fitting.
Michael Behe was on Jon Stewart - listening to Behe you realize that all the ammunition he has is in bashing Darwin. In other words you start with the premise that Darwin's work is analogous to the bible, it's to be taken as gospel. Bullshit, Darwin conceptualized in the 19th century, not the 21st - so it's to be expected that many of his premises are wrong and/or outdated - the core ideas, however, survive and have evolved (no pun intended).
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 08-09-2007 23:23
Its actually not even "eat or be eaten" it is pretty much just "survive".
Which makes things so much more interesting.
You can have an object like a tree which sits there siphoning things from its surrounding environment while you also get something like a lion which has to hunt over a large area in order to survive.
quote:
DL-44: And people are fundamentally flawed...
SleepingWolf: and so is nature, which is why the Design is anything but intelligent.
Just to take a single comment here and play Devil's advocate for a moment... so any design that is flawed is anything but intelligent? You've just relegated the vast majority of human design to the "unintelligent design" bin.
Just because (for example) Microsoft software has more bugs than the Amazon doesn't mean it wasn't designed by intelligent beings, does it?
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 08-11-2007 16:38
You then find yourself debating what is intelligent. And I am sure many would make the argument that Microsoft software was not intelligently designed.
I think you are onto something Suho, and I believe many people will become rather uncomfotable with the comparison of God/Intelligent Design to Microsoft...
I find it a very apt comparison, though I haven't the time right now to properly expand the metaphor =)
quote:It is not even about surviving per se - it is about surviving long enough to reproduce.
The more one can reproduce, the better the chances are that those particular genes will be passed on to the species
WS
I see a similarity with this comment and Genesis scripture in " God telling Adam and Eve to be "fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth." Can you explain reproduce to better the genes passed to the species as whole and for what specific reason?
On another note regarding the reproduction, maybe deep down, your old Christian ideologies are coming to the surface.
To me, all beings are in the making to becoming more perfected humans rather than intelligent humans existing in a more intelligent technological world. Not all are born to become rocket scientist or Rhodes scholars. Some of us are not highly intelligent. And future earthlings not born yet will still become more intelligent than others if we are talking about book smart stuff. What then is it to be intelligent? According to who or what standard? I believe some are called to be different in roles all woven to become a functioning prospering subdued earth. Who is going to clean up our homes and makeup our hotel beds and prepare our take out food? Or work highway construction. And clean our toilets. I don't think we were all created to be highly intelligent. Not that these persons are not intelligent in their field of work. This is why to me evolvement of the stat of the soul is more important that the evolvement of the intelligent mind. Besides, one big atomic terrorist bomb detonated and all the intelligence is out the window.
jade: if you're interested in the idea of gene-centered reproduction, you might want to give The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins a read. It's a well-written book that explains the subject very well.
I am not an advocate of intelligent design being taught in schools either. The evolution theory is ok. As I belive God could work thru this theory as well. For me, the Adam and Eve story is just a biblical story to send a message to us. I think faith matters should be taught at home or at religious education of the parents choosing. I went to Catholic schools because my parents preferred this way of education. We had religion/bible courses. Not really any in depth theology. Just basic Baltimore catechism. Even though these subjects were taught to me growing up..I was not really ready to connect the dots or try to figure out who God really was for me till I got to be an adult. I was focusing on kid matters then teenage matters. So I wonder how much stock the child will put into the intelligent design course in science.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 08-14-2007 14:30
quote: jade said:
quote:It is not even about surviving per se - it is about surviving long enough to reproduce.The more one can reproduce, the better the chances are that those particular genes will be passed on to the speciesWSI see a similarity with this comment and Genesis scripture in " God telling Adam and Eve to be "fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth." Can you explain reproduce to better the genes passed to the species as whole and for what specific reason?On another note regarding the reproduction, maybe deep down, your old Christian ideologies are coming to the surface.To me, all beings are in the making to becoming more perfected humans rather than intelligent humans existing in a more intelligent technological world. Not all are born to become rocket scientist or Rhodes scholars. Some of us are not highly intelligent. And future earthlings not born yet will still become more intelligent than others if we are talking about book smart stuff. What then is it to be intelligent? According to who or what standard? I believe some are called to be different in roles all woven to become a functioning prospering subdued earth. Who is going to clean up our homes and makeup our hotel beds and prepare our take out food? Or work highway construction. And clean our toilets. I don't think we were all created to be highly intelligent. Not that these persons are not intelligent in their field of work. This is why to me evolvement of the stat of the soul is more important that the evolvement of the intelligent mind. Besides, one big atomic terrorist bomb detonated and all the intelligence is out the window.(Edited by jade on 08-13-2007 19:41)
Ermmm...I never mentioned "subdue the earth"
Not sure why you threw that in there, or why you feel the need to quote the Bible.
I also never mentioned reproducing to better the genes passed to the species as a whole, either.
I said that a living being that lives long enough to reproduce has a better chance of passing its genes on to the species as a whole. This is in regards to a living being that does not live long enough to reproduce. This does not necessarily mean that the genes that are passed on are "better". In fact, it is possible that they are worse. Surviving to pass on genes does not necessarily mean that one has better genes.
Also, you need to seperate intelligence from technology and building on what came before.
State of the soul? Prove that a soul exists, first.
Or do you mean State of Being?
As usual, your ability to actually reason and think clearly and logically is sadly missing, Jade. You make huge leaps in your reasonings and postings - leaps that make no sense and are totally unsupported.
You do realize that your belief is exactly that - a belief. There is not one factual shred of evidence for it.
I hope you realize this.
This realization then leads to moderation - you will then realize that you have no right to impose your beliefs on others, for they are unsubstantiated. You will learn that your beliefs only apply to you and to no-one else.
Well, one can hope.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:This realization then leads to moderation - you will then realize that you have no right to impose your beliefs on others, for they are unsubstantiated. You will learn that your beliefs only apply to you and to no-one else
I never impose my beliefs on anyone. Plus my beliefs not only apply to me but to billions of others. Not to say I would, but if I really did want to impose I have the right to do so. We do live in a democracy in the USofA.
Didn't you believe in the tooth fairy or Santa when you were a tot? I would find it hard to believe if your parents did not make these pretend characters a part of your growing childhood. If they did, didn't it make your childhood more fun & special? In both, you were given a message that see, " if you have been good you?re going to get something as a reward." The child and the parent both relish in being a part of this pretending there is really a tooth fairy and a Santa. Except with God for us, its not pretense. For us,... there really is A God friendship that will reward us with a heaven we deserve. This makes life special for us in a very wonderful way. (Check out Miracle on 34ths Street Movie. John Payne the actor relates very well regarding the tangibles and intangibles to Maureen Ohara regarding Santa, etc.)
Since DL is speechless, let me comment on that line.
Actually, democracy is simply a form of government in which governing power is vested in the people. It has nothing to do with being able to impose your beliefs on anyone else.
That being said, what you probably meant to say is "We live in a free country," which is a line often used by people who feel that they have the right to do whatever they want. And they do--to a certain extent. Ideally, everyone would have the right to believe what they want to believe in a free country. To also allow everyone the right to impose their beliefs on everyone else would be contradictory to that. Perhaps what you mean is that you have the right to share your beliefs with others. If that is what you mean, then yes, you do have the right to share your beliefs with others (as long as they are willing to listen).
But if you truly mean that you have the right to force your beliefs on others, even if these beliefs are counter to their own beliefs, then let me ask you this: where is their freedom? For whom, exactly is the United States a free country?
(By the way, the systems of government most suited to imposing beliefs on others would be fascism or totalitarianism.)
I don't understand why. You preach the freedom to practice anything within the law DL. If one wants to follow the Dali Lama to Tibet because someone shared their faith. Where is the harm? To associate with a divine intelligence is a good thing.
Those who profess faith in any creed want to share their God. God could be represented in a tooth fairy and in Santa. So...This is the formation of a relationship with an intangible in early childhood. Did your children believe in Santa and the tooth fairy in their early childhood? Or did you deprive them of the pleasure an fun. It was so much fun for me and my husband to get the donut and hot chocolate ready for Santa. And write the letters from the tooth fairy. And I know I will do the same when I have grandchildren.
quote:But if you truly mean that you have the right to force your beliefs on others, even if these beliefs are counter to their own beliefs, then let me ask you this: where is their freedom? For whom, exactly is the United States a free country?
You are correct Suho, to share is a better way to explain ideally. Remember I did say I would not impose my beliefs on anyone. I am not that kind of person. But being that we live in a free society, if I were a different kind of person if I wanted to impose my religious beliefs on someone I could do so within the law. Those who I would try to impose my religious beliefs on would have the freedom to reject me and my beliefs. Lets look a David Koresh and his Davidian Sect as an example.
I am not that kind of person. But being that we live in a free society, if I were a different kind of person if I wanted to impose my religious beliefs on someone I could do so within the law.
You really don't - try to - understand what WS, DL-44 and Suho are trying to tell you -- with great patience, as far as I can tell, since it has been lasting for as far as I have been registered on the Asylum -- do you? I tend to keep out of threads like these because I really don't have a huge religious culture, although I am a (non-practising) protestant.
But come on, you don't really think democracy means the right to do anything you want, do you?
And as far as this goes:
quote: jade said:
Those who profess faith in any creed want to share their God. God could be represented in a tooth fairy and in Santa. So...This is the formation of a relationship with an intangible in early childhood. Did your children believe in Santa and the tooth fairy in their early childhood? Or did you deprive them of the pleasure an fun. It was so much fun for me and my husband to get the donut and hot chocolate ready for Santa. And write the letters from the tooth fairy. And I know I will do the same when I have grandchildren.
I really cannot believe that some people are unable to fathom the fact that there are other cultures and traditions in this world... Come on Jade, you don't mean what you're writing, do you? Do you realise the words you are using? "Deprive [our children]"?! Of believing in the Tooth Fairy or Santa??
So let me try and summarise your points:
1. Santa (and the Tooth Fairy) are necessary to a good religious education
2. Without Santa (and the Tooth Fairy) no child is able to develop his/her religious beliefs
3. Failing to make one's children believe in Santa (and the Tooth Fairy) will result in unhappy childhood, possibly paganism, because they will be unable to grasp the concept of religion
Did I get that right?
Also, do you leave Doughnuts in the church for God and his Apostles?
quote: jade said:
It was so much fun for me and my husband to get the donut and hot chocolate ready for Santa. And write the letters from the tooth fairy.
And this really makes me wonder who's getting the more fun with the Santa and Tooth Fairy thing in your family...
And it also strangely reminds me of something else: when I used to go to church -- not very often but enough to my liking -- I used to be not impressed at all to see that the priest was getting about in a Mercedes and his kids had the latest fashion clothes and items, while my dad was struggling to meet needs ends. So when we were asked to make "contributions towards the church" I couldn't help but wonder towards whom exactly we were making contributions. I'm not saying he wasn't earning a living in a honest way, but it did feel awkward anyway.
This is what drew me out of church: hypocrisy. And the same hypocrisy bleeds out of each and every post of yours, Jade. If this is religion, well, Thank you but no, thank you.
quote:This is what drew me out of church: hypocrisy. And the same hypocrisy bleeds out of each and every post of yours, Jade. If this is religion, well, Thank you but no, thank you.
As usual..some on this forum take post personal and resort to name calling. By constantly pointing the finger at my so called hypocrisy on this forum it only seems to deteroiate the direction the topic will lead to for me.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 08-16-2007 22:19
quote:Plus my beliefs not only apply to me but to billions of others.
So you are now to the point where you are admitting that your beliefs are only that, beliefs? Well, that is at least some progress.
BTW - it has been said before (and I believe DL-44 drove the point home many times, as well), that it does not matter how many believe in something - that will not make it true, if indeed it is not true. You are making a fundamental error here in logic. You seem to think that the more people that believe in something, the more valid it is, despite the fact that it is just a belief, without supporting evidence.
And without supporting evidence, it remains a belief.
There are many examples of large amounts of people believing in something, only to find out that what they had believed was wrong.
Just think about what Europeans used to think about the shape of the earth before, Jade. Well, it turns out that all who believed the earth was flat were all wrong. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them (and the Catholic Church at the time, as well. So much for the infallibility of the Pope).
The numbers supporting a Belief does not make it any more valid than the belief of one. Or none, for that matter.
Reliably produced evidence and facts, on the other hand...hey, the earth is round!
As for the Tooth Fairy and Santa - there was no tooth fairy in my house. I used to always regard kids in school who used to go on about some sort of imaginative little "thing" that took their teeth and gave them money as...more than a little strange. When I asked them what this thing looked like, they had no idea. And when I asked if they had ever seen such a thing, they were pretty uncomfortable about it. And when I started asking them how they knew such a thing existed, if they had never seen it, they would get angry.
My stepfather was jewish. We did not celebrate christmas, and thus, did not have any belief in "Santa". What a strange notion! A person that no-one had ever seen (well, except for people that were dressed up like him, ringing a bell and gathering money), all dressed in red with white trim, who flew about once a year in a sled pulled by flying reindeer?!
We used to laugh about kids believing this junk on the reservation.
Later in life I learned to keep quiet about such things, as they could get one beat up (after we moved off the reservation). Seems that the believing kids didn't like having their make-believe worlds questioned.
I found out early that disbelief or belief in something different was a threat to those who believed or believed differently than I did.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:So you are now to the point where you are admitting that your beliefs are only that, beliefs? Well, that is at least some progress.
I was relating the beliefs with intangibles in early childhood on how most children growing up believe in them.. Not to say all children are exposed to them as you evidently weren't. Though in dealing with our relationship to CHrist we can neither see him or touch him, but we can still profess to know him in the most personal way because he beconds us to him like a magnet 24/7. Santa and the tooth fairy don't call us in the inner "state of being" all through our daily life.
For me..I have a reserved space for him in my heart and that is where I make sure he has a place to stay. As he lives there I know I can bear anyting. Call it what you will but I know that. This can also be said about a person one loves dearly like a spouse. Her you can touch. (I forgot are you male? ) Her at your side with all the love you feel you can accomplish anything if she believes in you. But humans can fail you becasue they are weak. Whereas with Christ as your spouse he will never fail you.
How can a belief in a good higher being ever be a bad thing unless it comes in the form of a cult that professes the opposite of what really God is. And they use persons or things for the purpose of opposing God.
How can a belief in a good higher being ever be a bad thing
Very simply: when that "higher being" does not exist, and when countless numbers of people who stake their lives on that belief continually try to erode other people's freedoms in the name of that belief.
quote: jade said:
unless it comes in the form of a cult that professes the opposite of what really God is. And they use persons or things for the purpose of opposing God.
There are a lot of gods ouot there....surely most of them in some way "oppose" each other....which I guess makes all religions a "bad thing" according to your own logic. I will agree with you on that... =)
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 08-20-2007 14:17
quote:For me..I have a reserved space for him in my heart and that is where I make sure he has a place to stay. As he lives there I know I can bear anyting. Call it what you will but I know that. This can also be said about a person one loves dearly like a spouse. Her you can touch. (I forgot are you male? ) Her at your side with all the love you feel you can accomplish anything if she believes in you. But humans can fail you becasue they are weak. Whereas with Christ as your spouse he will never fail you.
Believe me when I say it is possible to bear anything without the crutch of Belief in a Greater Power.
Try Belief in yourself sometime.
Works wonders for me.
The incredible sense of freedom in knowing that you, yourself, are responsible for your actions and your life. You decide what type of person you want to be. Once out of the box of Religion and Belief in some Greater Thing, it is impossible to squeeze oneself back in. Of course, it is also alot of work - a daily one, to be honest. But anything worthwhile is alot of work.
For the record, I am male.
quote:How can a belief in a good higher being ever be a bad thing unless it comes in the form of a cult that professes the opposite of what really God is. And they use persons or things for the purpose of opposing God.
History has countless examples of how it can be a bad thing (we can start with the Spanish Inquisition by the Catholic Church, if you want - or how about the Witchhunts of Germany, also sanctioned by the Catholic Church for a time). Basically, it is as DL has said
quote:when that "higher being" does not exist, and when countless numbers of people who stake their lives on that belief continually try to erode other people's freedoms in the name of that belief
You will also notice that there are other Believers who are members of this forum, who for one or the other reason do not actively attempt to force their Beliefs on others. They have made this decision for their own reasons - but it is something that is respected by all, even if some of us do not agree with their Beliefs. I believe that they provide shining examples of their Faith by doing so.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:You will also notice that there are other Believers who are members of this forum, who for one or the other reason do not actively attempt to force their Beliefs on others. They have made this decision for their own reasons - but it is something that is respected by all, even if some of us do not agree with their Beliefs. I believe that they provide shining examples of their Faith by doing so
i respect others beliefs...
quote:The incredible sense of freedom in knowing that you, yourself, are responsible for your actions and your life. You decide what type of person you want to be.
Do you believe all persons evolve in their "state of being" with age? What you thought rearding your beliefs about God, were they the same 10 yrs ago. With age you are growing in the wisdom of things by life. Right? I believe 10 yrs from now you may have had a change in your ideals..Not that you may become a member of any sect in religion but circumstances, episodes or other reflections or a person may shape your belief in another direction.
I do have the free will to accept or reject what I want to believe.. I can be a free spirit like you in regard to beliving in Indian spirits inhabiting animals or having no belief in a God at all. It just so happens that I choose the faith I am in to exist. My God does not pull my strings. My God gives me the freedom to choose my own way and my own will even if it means to choose to be away from him.
quote:There are a lot of gods ouot there....surely most of them in some way "oppose" each other....which I guess makes all religions a "bad thing" according to your own logic. I will agree with you on that... =)
I don't believe Gods oppose each other for the simple truth is that there is only one God.
But if there is a message of opposition of one sect against another its because of human thought and action. It is not of God's choosing.
I don't believe Gods oppose each other for the simple truth is that there is only one God.
The simple opinion that there is only one god.
Many gods are worshipped throughout the world, and each worshipper believes as strongly and with as much reason to believe in theirs as you have in yours...
posted 02-13-2007 09:10
