This is brilliant, Speak You're bRanes is one site that I make sure to have in my RSS feeds, it has some absolute classic quotes from the BBC's Have Your Say section.
However sometimes they get some brilliant outsiders come in like This one from a Christian Fundamentalists website. The mind boggles how people can be so ignorant, or is it just that they aren't very good at putting their point across and don't preview their posts?
That's very amusing - though not entirely surprising...
Of course, the argument that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics is based upon a misunderstanding of the terms - one has absolutely nothing to do with the other!
Man, there is some really funny quotes on it! My work colleagues are looking at me funnily...
It is really hard to believe that they are real quotes...
Wow...I take that back!
Not all of them are funny
quote:ust recently my son Bobby came out to me. I had been worried for awhile. His teachers said most of his grades were slipping and he seemed depressed and withdrawn.
Bobby said he'd been hiding it for awhile because he was afraid I would reject him. I sat him down and told him that I loved him and that God loved him, but that his salvation was in danger if he did not resist his unnatural tempations. I told him how being gay would mean he would live a shorter life, and that if he couldnt change his orientation he could be celibate like most the ex-gays are. He started crying saying something along the lines of "I knew you wouldnt understand! You're just like everyone else!" before running to his room and slamming the door.
What did I do wrong? I dont want to lose my son, but I fear I already have. I talked it over with his therapist, who had the ludicrous idea that homosexuality was unchangable and that trying to repress could lead to lots of psychological damage (I've dropped him and will try to be finding another therapist with more moral beliefs). I wouldnt be surprised if he's the one who's feeding my son all the homosexual propaganda about how its 'ok' to be gay. That, or how homosexuality has engulfed the media, making it seem 'cool' and 'hip' and how they were just another oppressed minority. You didnt have to worry about seeing two men making out on tv at my age! I dont want to sound like a fanatic, but Im worried what other effects will come out of this increasingly secular, immoral society obsessed with filth.
Am I too late? Or is it possible to save my son
[Note: the boy eventually took his own life.]
Holy crap!
That is one fucked up individual - a religious nut that indirectly caused the suicide of his own son!
Oh hey! Artemis got quoted!
quote:You got it backwards.
Creationism is based upon science, reason and tons of evidence.
Evolution is based on the blind acceptance of superstitions and fairy tales.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Hang on, where does it say his son committed suicide?
Careful that kind of loose talk is how religions get started!
But seriously folks, I seem to have come across many many fuckwits recently and it's actually bringing me down, it doesn't matter if they're American, European or whatever, fuckwits are fuckwits and are a race unto themselves.
I love the article "Atheists as a Majority" in the top 100 list... it seems that my lack of a belief in God means I don't believe in the sanctity of life, in good moral choices, in protecting my health, or in tolerance of others and their beliefs (except open homosexual activities in a child's bedroom, of course).
Having a browse through, I just can't believe that these things were all sincerely expressed views. Surely, some of them are a joke..?
Please, someone tell me they're all just messing about...
I'm losing any remaining hope I had for humanity, here...
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 01-20-2008 06:47
I have a question: do most Atheists truly believe there is no God, or do they not want God to exist? I ask this because I had a few lunches with a very outspoken atheist. It was a wonderful time, but after talking to me he revealed that he wasn't so much an atheist as an anti-theist. He didn't want there to be God. He didn't tell me why.
Is this the popular "atheist" belief, or do self-proclaimed atheists truly believe there is absolutely no God?
"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 01-20-2008 12:16
Well, Gid, I cannot speak for everyone, of course.
But I tend to define things like this :
Hardcore Atheist - there is absolutely no gods.
Atheist/Agnostic - there is more than likely no gods, but there is a slight possibility that there could be one or more.
Believer - there is more than likely gods, but there is a slight possibility that there are none.
Hardcore Fundamentalist - there are gods without a shred of doubt.
Myself, I am in the Atheist/Agnostic camp. Logically, gods are right up there with Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. However, there is the slight chance that reality is not how we think it is, and as such, I allow for the chance that such does truly exist.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
No - he probably thinks they're sub-human organ farms put here by God for the benefit of God-fearing people... I joke; seems that at least one fundamentalist (read, 'mentalist') is of this opinion in the top 100 list.
Gideon: I agree with WebShaman. There are different kinds of atheists much like there are different kinds of theists. Some are more tolerant than others and some believe in the possibility of the existence of a higher being/force/entity etc, some don't.
I don't believe in any kind of higher being or even in the distinct possibility of such a thing existing.
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 01-31-2008 02:24
Thanks for the help! I hear different things from different people, and it's always nice to ask. My roommate gave me about the same answer as WS when I asked him.
So do you, WS, not believe in the existence of God because you have no proof? If so, I think it's awesome that you keep your mind open and you honestly look. I had to go through a time in my life where my belief in God was challenged (by a few people on here too, in fact), and I put a huge magnifying glass on it. That was probably the best time in my life, where I learned to make my beliefs my own.
I like your list, but could I maybe put an addition to it? My relationship to God really isn't so much as believer/deity, but more of a follower to a person. I had an experience about a week ago where I looked back on my life since the season (about 5 years ago) where I surrendered my self to follow God, and I saw instances where God took me through rough places to harden out my character, like the relationship I have been in for about a year. He also took me through instances where He used me for good, like the time I got a camp of teenagers to throw away their alcohol for a week during summer camp. It was a neat experience for me. Of course I see God as an omnipotent being, but I've also been discovering how personal He can actually be. Would you be willing to add that camp to your list?
Sorry to split up my post like this, but I have a question for Arthurio: why do you believe that there is absolutely no chance for there being a God? It is always fascinating for me to ask people on both sides of the debate why they have their strong convictions. I think some Christians who say there is no chance God doesn't exist say that because they are afraid God will get angry with them if they say He "isn't." Some of them because they have been seeing so much proof of His existence that they have a hard time thinking it is otherwise. Why do you believe there is absolutely no God?
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 01-31-2008 10:08
I don't believe in God like I don't believe in the Toothfairy, in Santa Claus, in Jack Frost, etc.
Tell me, Gid, do you believe in the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, or Jack Frost?
I'm curious.
You believe in a being where there is no evidence supporting its existence, right?
If you do not believe in the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, or Jack Frost, then why do you believe in a specific ebing where there is no eviddence supporting its existence?
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Sorry to butt-in again, but WS - that is almost word-for-word, the exact question I have posed countless times! I've never been given a satisfactory answer.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 01-31-2008 13:29
That is because the Religious do not have an answer that one would consider to be sane and reasonable to the question.
They will adamantly insist that their god exists, and deny adamantly in the same breath that the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, and Jack Frost are children fantasy beings, imaginary creatures made up to entertain children. What they do not accept is the LOGICAL path of reasoning here - that if no evidence exists for something, then it is as likely to be true as another that also does not have any evidence for the existence thereof.
In short, existance of a god (or gods) = existance of the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, and Jack Frost.
I will say this - I do allow for the very remote possiblility that the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, Jack Frost, or a god (or gods) exist. This is because there is no 100% certainty that reality is as we think it to be, scientifically.
The same goes for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 01-31-2008 16:37
Well this gave me a chuckle.
quote: Gideon said:
I think some Christians who say there is no chance God doesn't exist say that because they are afraid God will get angry with them if they say He "isn't."
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 02-06-2008 11:18
Sorry to hijack your funny thread guys. I just want to answer WS really quickly...
(I'm glad you got a laugh out of that Poi. :-) )
quote: WebShaman said:
I don't believe in God like I don't believe in the Toothfairy, in Santa Claus, in Jack Frost, etc.
Tell me, Gid, do you believe in the Toothfairy, Santa Claus, or Jack Frost?
I'm curious.
You believe in a being where there is no evidence supporting its existence, right?
Actually, I do not believe there is a toothfairy since I have seen no evidence for it. Santa Claus I do believe in, however I believe in the historic Saint Nicholas who lives in history books, not the north pole. I have no clue who Jack Frost is.
I think the Santa Claus question is interesting. I DO believe in Santa Claus, I just defined him a bit differently than most people do.
How do you define God?
Several people have asked me for evidence of God and I point to the rain. I take a breath and rest my case. Both of those things are evidence that God exists because that is a part of who He is. He brings the rain down, He gives us life. What kind of God do most people look for? I think it is the same thing as Santa Claus. Some figure, way up north, who gives you presents if you are good. That sound about right? Then you get older and are disappointed because you didn't get your presents. I don't believe a god like that exists, so I guess in that way I agree with you. But I have seen/heard/experienced evidence that the God of the Bible does exist. Just like I have evidence in my history book that Saint Nicholas existed.
quote:Several people have asked me for evidence of God and I point to the rain. I take a breath and rest my case. Both of those things are evidence that God exists because that is a part of who He is. He brings the rain down, He gives us life.
Seriously ? and you expect people to swallow that ?
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-06-2008 11:57
Gid, there is NO scientifically-backed difference when comparing the equality of the existence of a god (or gods) and the Easter Bunny, the Toothfairy, Jack Frost, Santa Claus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Celestial Teacup, etc.
You may have beliefs to the contrary (and most probably do) - but those are just that, beliefs. There is no basis in FACT to support your claim (if you feel there is, then please post it so that we can independently verify it scientifically).
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote: Gideon said:
Several people have asked me for evidence of God and I point to the rain. I take a breath and rest my case. Both of those things are evidence that God exists because that is a part of who He is. He brings the rain down, He gives us life.
ROFL, I guess no one ever asked you a second question after that right? Or wait, are you saying that you think God _is_ physics?
I have often hear people say that God is everywhere and in everything etc. WHERE do you get that information??
Btw this is your God of the Bible:
quote:Ezekiel 6:1 (Whole Chapter)
[ Turn Israel into Wasteland ] Then the Word of God came to me: "Son of man, now turn and face the mountains of Israel and preach against them: 'O Mountains of Israel, listen to the Message of God, the Master. God, the Master, speaks to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and the valleys: I'm about to destroy your sacred god and goddess shrines. I'll level your altars, bust up your sun-god pillars, and kill your people as they bow down to your no-god idols. I'll stack the dead bodies of Israelites in front of your idols and then scatter your bones around your shrines. Every place where you've lived, the towns will be torn down and the pagan shrines demolished?altars busted up, idols smashed, all your custom-made sun-god pillars in ruins. Corpses everywhere you look! Then you'll know that I am God.
there is a celestial teacup ? Considering the indeniable existence of the Celestial Teapot, it sounds reasonable to assume there might be Celestial teacups and cookies. Or would it be space cookies ? That would explain a LOT of things.
WebShaman: who said the Celestial Teapot is full of hot hot hot tea ? It could very well be iced tea, or hot hot hot tea. It's all up to the Celestial Teapot.
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 02-07-2008 07:19
To be honest WS, I don't know where people got half of the things you cite. I haven't had much contact with the tales of Jack Frost, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy. I don't really know where they come from. However, I do know where Santa Claus comes from.
Santa Claus is a legend spawned from Saint Nicholas. Just as Santa Claus is something that our world has created from Saint Nicholas, I believe that our world has also created a view of God that isn't God. That is why most people claim there is no proof for His existence. Of course God is real, just like Saint Nicholas is real. You don't go looking for Saint Nicholas in the North Pole, and you don't go looking for God as some flippant gift giver who is there for our beckoning. God isn't yoked to us, He can do as He pleases. That sends chills up most people's spines. God is not in our control, we can't force Him into some sort of idea and force Him to prove it. God IS, and we can either acknowledge Him and live in that light...or not.
I don't really know if you can prove/disprove God with science. It is kinda a moot idea for me. It would be like me trying to prove/disprove you with the scientific method. I think that question goes more into the realm of philosophy than hard science, don't you?
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 02-07-2008 07:29
Arthurio, I like the quote you found from Ezekiel. It really shows how God gets angry and violent towards sin. An attribute of God that most people (even Christians) don't want to see...and tend to shut out: His wrath.
But you still haven't answered my question. I'm really curious as to why you believe what you believe...
quote:Sorry to split up my post like this, but I have a question for Arthurio: why do you believe that there is absolutely no chance for there being a God? It is always fascinating for me to ask people on both sides of the debate why they have their strong convictions. I think some Christians who say there is no chance God doesn't exist say that because they are afraid God will get angry with them if they say He "isn't." Some of them because they have been seeing so much proof of His existence that they have a hard time thinking it is otherwise. Why do you believe there is absolutely no God?
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-07-2008 09:33
quote:I don't really know if you can prove/disprove God with science. It is kinda a moot idea for me. It would be like me trying to prove/disprove you with the scientific method. I think that question goes more into the realm of philosophy than hard science, don't you?
Errr...no, it doesn't.
One can prove the existence of another scientifically. Of course, there will be some room for error (a slight procent, because as you have noted, we could all be living a dream/fairyland, etc and this is all just an illusion, then all bets are off).
But assuming for the moment that we do, indeed, exist in a rational world, then yes, I can prove that you exist, scientifically.
So no, it is not the same as trying to prove or disprove that a god or gods exist. Where there is absolutely no evidence, it sets up a situation where all possibilities are equal.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Gideon:
Sorry I somehow managed to miss your question.
It is not wise of anyone to believe in absolutes. However it is my right to do so. I could answer why I believe that there is no God but why I believe that there is absolutely no God I cannot answer. As far as science goes the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful being or entity is impossible and if you reduce that to less than all-powerful and all-knowing then what's the point? I don't think you can just say that God may be something different than what Christians believe and at the same believe in soul, after-life, the validity of Bible etc. It would make just as much sense to worship a little green alien who lives lightyears away and believe that when dead your consciousness will somehow be transported there to exist happily ever after together with the little green alien. Even if someone claims to be able to magically communicate with the little green alien I see no reason to believe he exists. There is exactly as much proof to support the existence of God as there is to the little green alien. However I see lots of reasons why someone might invent an imaginary all-powerful all-knowing being that communicates only with that person and maybe with a few more select people. Of course you could say that the little green alien works in mysterious ways...
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 02-08-2008 00:32
Off topic a bit... maybe... I don't know but--- doesn't this fall under the category of promoting hatred against an identifiable group?
quote:
quote:Ezekiel 6:1 (Whole Chapter)
[ Turn Israel into Wasteland ] Then the Word of God came to me: "Son of man, now turn and face the mountains of Israel and preach against them: 'O Mountains of Israel, listen to the Message of God, the Master. God, the Master, speaks to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and the valleys: I'm about to destroy your sacred god and goddess shrines. I'll level your altars, bust up your sun-god pillars, and kill your people as they bow down to your no-god idols. I'll stack the dead bodies of Israelites in front of your idols and then scatter your bones around your shrines. Every place where you've lived, the towns will be torn down and the pagan shrines demolished?altars busted up, idols smashed, all your custom-made sun-god pillars in ruins. Corpses everywhere you look! Then you'll know that I am God.
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
Thank you for answering me Arthurio. It's okay that you missed it the first time. I had a hard time remembering after all the conversation with WS. :-) But thank you for being so candid. That's a good point you made that the point of a less than all-etc. being would be pointless. I never thought about it that way. So it kinda does swing in absolutes there, then, since either there is a God who is all-etc, or if there is something any less they aren't worth the effort...I can definitely see that.
WS, I guess you are right about the science. It is possible to prove the existence of God with science, just like you can prove I exist. I already gave you the reason why I believe in Santa Claus. Doesn't that same reasoning apply for God as well? Or is God the exception to this rule of historical fact?
quote:I already gave you the reason why I believe in Santa Claus. Doesn't that same reasoning apply for God as well?
Computer says noooo. Or you'd have to to apply it to all the deities and created by mankind since tens of thousands of years in various civilisations. Beside, the fact that the idea of Santa Claus is sorta kinda based upon Saint Nicolas doesn't make Santa Clause real.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-11-2008 10:02
quote:It is possible to prove the existence of God with science, just like you can prove I exist. I already gave you the reason why I believe in Santa Claus. Doesn't that same reasoning apply for God as well? Or is God the exception to this rule of historical fact?
You are joking, right?
Please tell me that you are not serious!
We have been through this all before.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Warning: Potentially inflammatory material below. Sense of humour required!
If, when I come to my time, I should find myself brought before some great being, creator of the Universe and all that dwell within it (meaning Earth's creatures only, of course, being the centre of all God's creation, and seeing as He didn't see fit to populate the rest of it), I just hope with all my heart that He has some form of nose... coz' I'm gonna' crack him a good one right in the middle of it! I might then apologise for not believing in the twisted old c**t, but that all depends on how He feels about being nutted on the nose.
That God exists is a matter of opinion, but should he exist, then I have plenty of proof that he really is a sick, cruel, unforgiving, and truly inhuman God. His idea of fun is for a child to be born without any possibility of experiencing and enjoying its life like an ordinary child, and to have it born to the sort of sickos that would keep it alive as long as possible in the belief that its painful rictus is some sort of smile.
So, I have no qualms about finding out He exists, as I have plans for Him. He'll certainly believe in me when I'm done.
WS, I just re-read my post and I have to apologize. I guess last night I smooshed those two ideas together and didn't think that it would be taken as one idea, my bad.
Two thoughts in that quote you grabbed from me:
1. Concession that it would be possible to prove/disprove the existence of God with science, in the same manner you would prove/disprove the existence of a person.
2. My belief in God stems from the same historical proof we have that Saint Nicholas was a real person. My point in using Saint Nicholas is that the media has changed who he really was in order to make some bucks off of him. I believe that media has done the same with God.
I'm sorry if that caused you any confusion.
We have enough historical evidence to prove that God is a real person who has influenced humanity for a very long time. If writings and a few artifacts are proof enough that Saint Nicholas existed, I think that 66 primary sources written by several different authors over a span of at least a millenia would count for at least enough evidence to suggest that there might be a God who does influence humanity. I could understand where many people would disagree with that historical data, since most historians disagree on everything, but doesn't it count for something? I guess after you look at the historical data it would be faith that you use to believe them; much like it is faith you use to accept what your professors say or faith you use to accept what historians say about something like...the holocaust. But the point I want to make is that there is evidence to suggest the existence of God. Some people just decide not to trust that evidence.
After we decide that God is a historical person, then I guess it would be okay to perform some scientific tests or mathematical calculations to determine if he still does exist, if you are up for the challenge.
For the record, Gidon /= Gideon. I don't write in caps and I wouldn't talk like that.
No, Gideon, the proof is much more likely to show that our alien benefactors (the guys who terra-formed Earth and populated it with life adapted to its conditions) existed at one time or another, and that their attempts at teaching something of worth to our ignorant ancestors went a little awry. There is no evidence at all to suggest the existence of a 'God' - this is where historians go to great pains to define the difference between first-hand and second-hand evidence, empirical evidence, and witness statements.
It is also prudent to consider the mental capacity and unique viewpoint of those who witness events - would trust you my assertion that little green pixie people inhabit my garden if I admit that they tend to congregate around my magic-mushroom patch, and reveal that I've never heard of grass-hoppers?
There is as much evidence of God's existence as there is of my rightful ascendence to the throne of Britain (which, when realised, will herald the start of a new era... and the immediate invasion of France as the first step in rebuilding the British Empire and repatriating America beneath the British flag). My documents were deliberately destroyed, and some devilish type even faked British history to make it look like I'm not the real King, but I have faith, you see...
So when you say there is no evidence of God are you talking about empirical evidence, witnesses, both, neither?
*66 primary source witness books in the Bible
*Other primary source witness books in Jewish and Christian accounts (Shepherd of Hermas, etc.)
*Statues, columns, reliefs (can't remember which) depicting Roman soldiers carring off the artifacts from the Jewish temple which were all described in written texts as given by God.
*Ark of the Covenant possibly found again
*Noah's Ark?
*Babylonian, Roman, maybe Assyrian records of Jewish nation
Need more to show the possibility of God?
We need less info than that to prove the existance of a pre-human ancestor. :-p
*66 people met aliens, or were using the wrong kind of incense... or both!
*Fables! There's plenty of '70s sci-fi literature that isn't taken so seriously.
*I have documents to suggest my birthmark is an alien tracking device.
*When it melts an entire Nazi army and leaves an adventurous archeologist and his shag with nothing but rope-burns, I'll see greater significance in it than I do. Historical significance only.
*What about it?
*What about it?
I'd need a lot more evidence than that to bring established theory anywhere near the realms of proven fact - evolution or religion.
Proof that people believed in God is a long way from proving God. I could argue that Jesus existed, but that doesn't make him the son of God in my eyes, or those of my imaginary Jewish friend (who does exist).
quote:We have enough historical evidence to prove that God is a real person who has influenced humanity for a very long time.
Sorry, the fact that some loonies killed each other and slaughtered others in your God's name is no proof of its existence.
Try again.
quote:*66 primary source witness books in the Bible
*Other primary source witness books in Jewish and Christian accounts (Shepherd of Hermas, etc.)
*Statues, columns, reliefs (can't remember which) depicting Roman soldiers carring off the artifacts from the Jewish temple which were all described in written texts as given by God.
*Ark of the Covenant possibly found again
*Noah's Ark?
*Babylonian, Roman, maybe Assyrian records of Jewish nation
I see people who live in Lala land, and they don't know it.
This has *all* been addressed over and over...
Your list of "evidence" is purely ridiculous. By that criteria, as I've said before, Superman is far more likely to exist than god.
Are you saying Superman isn't real?!? That's just absurd - look at all the documented evidence of his existence! Countless tales of his adventures, TV shows, and even a few movies - you can't tell me he doesn't exist, cos' I saw him on TV! You can buy action figures of him, ffs! Don't tell me he doesn't exist! *uncontrollable sobbing*
*C'mon Gideon, really! Are you going to tell me that Pliny the Younger was actually right when he documented the destruction of Pompeii? That town was destroyed by aliens, we all know that! And the holocaust, just a hoax put together by Jewish leaders to get Israel back!*
Hard evidence is something difficult to come by in history, I will admit that. But don't all those documents, artifacts, and changed nations at least suggest the existence of God? You can choose to disagree based on other evidence you have, much like Arthur R. Butz and the holocaust. But you can't discount the fact that several documents are claimed to be eyewitness accounts of God. Several other key references show what God should have acted like...and that He did do those things He should have. The books of Law written by Moses were supposed to have been given to him by God. That's about as close as one can get to an interview with God...All the prophets tell what God will do...and He does it. Isn't that enough evidence to suggest He is real?
[side note] Telling a dog to become a cat, really wanting him to become a cat, setting up tests to see if he is a cat, will never make him meow.[/side note]
[side note 2] 66 people who saw aliens or smelled the wrong incense would never be able to record or predict history as accurately as they did.[/side note 2]
Has anyone/you seen the stone tablets on which Moses supposedly got the ten comandments written ? I might start to consider that fairy tale the day we find and date them. Until then, this story is just a myth.
side note 2: it's not that hard to predict history when you write the book afterwards
quote:But don't all those documents, artifacts, and changed nations at least suggest the existence of God?
No.
quote:But you can't discount the fact that several documents are claimed to be eyewitness accounts of God.
Yes. I can.
quote:Several other key references show what God should have acted like...and that He did do those things He should have.
Uh... ? So, a story about god claims that he behaved in the way that the story claims he should behave? Earth-shattering...
quote:The books of Law written by Moses were supposed to have been given to him by God.
So? Perseus was supposed to have been given a sword by the god Hermes, a shield by the goddess Athena, and winged sandals, a helmet of invisibility and other goodies by the spring nymphs. He was supposed to have turned many people to stone using the dismembered head of Medusa which he obtained with the help of the gods, and flew back home with using his nice new winged sneakers...
quote:All the prophets tell what God will do...and He does it.
Nonsense.
quote:Isn't that enough evidence to suggest He is real?
So? Perseus was supposed to have been given a sword by the god Hermes, a shield by the goddess Athena, and winged sandals, a helmet of invisibility and other goodies by the spring nymphs.
I remember the days when spring nymphs used to give me goodies. ~sigh~
Those who look for monsters should look to it that
they do not become monsters. For when you gaze
long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.
Gideon, accept the following fact; history is recorded by humans; humans are fallible; history, as we know it, is subject to interpretation by fallible humans; recorded history is fallible. This is accepted by any historian worth his or her salt, even with regard to relatively recent events. FFS, you can't even believe 90% of the crap you read in the newspapers; you can't even believe half the crap you see in live newscasts!
Accepting (or at least, understanding) this fact, can you honestly tell me that the great unwashed (uneducated, ignorant, and quite simply, gullible) masses of ancient times were adequately equipped to tell truth from fiction, or to intellectually assess the validity of claims/statements made by others?
If your answer to that is anything more positive than "I don't know", then you need to ask yourself what the difference is between the prophets of long ago, and the people they lock away in institutions nowadays for claiming to be the son/prophet/embodiment of God. Why are they called crazy today? Why wasn't David Koresh lauded as the new Christ?
By your logic, if we're to assume that your God existed, then we must assume, by the volume of literature, that the Viking, Roman and Greek Gods existed (which makes your God a filthy deceiver, as he claimed to be alone). In fact, through sheer weight of evidence, we can't deny that Pagan sacrifices used to bring the seasons to fruition, and cause the sun to rise each morning.
Besides, if your God existed, and He created everything, then he had a very poor understanding of the science behind his own creation, making many, many assertions that were either completely false, misguided, or ignorant. In fact, if we assume that your sadistic and cruel God really existed, then we know for a fact that he deliberately mislead (and compounded the ignorance of) his followers for a very long time.
So, in short, we have two options:
1) Accept your ridiculously flawed logic; God existed. In this case, he was a sick-minded, lying, and rather dim sort of God.
2) Accept that there is no proof, and that whether or not he existed, many people have vigorously perpetuated the belief.
White Hawk, thank you so much for revealing all that to me. Thank you for showing me the reasoning behind your beliefs about why God doesn't exist. I can tell that you are angry at God (I can understand why at this presentation of Him). I can see now why you don't think He exists. I wouldn't want a God like that to exist either.
I want to show you the God whom I believe does exist. I want to quote the most quoted verse of the Bible: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16
The God I believe exists and He loves the people of this world. He loves the sons of Adam and daughters of Eve so much that He sacrificed His own Son to bring them back from separation.
Say what you want about historians, they are human beings. Say what you want about the "unwashed masses of ancient times," their acts speak for themselves. Say what you want about the prophets, they died for their message. Say what you want about the literature about God, it has withstood worse. But I want you to know that God is not sadistic and cruel. We have removed ourselves from God's love by our own free will. He created this beautiful world and we are the ones who destroyed it. He has been doing all He can within His own being to bring us back to what we were created for...a full and loving relationship with God Himself, through His Son, Jesus the Christ. We are what stands in the way. It isn't God's fault we are as we are...it is our own selfish desires. I hope you someday understand this.
Gideon: I know you never will but you should try to think about where you get your information. The Bible is as much proof of anything as are all other religious/mythical/fiction texts or books. You have probably been taught these things about God as facts since you were born. It is very difficult for one to change one's perception of reality. White Hawk isn't angry at God because it is difficult be to angry at something that doesn't exist I think he's angry at people who refuse to accept reality and reason. I share these feelings.
Anyway you just lost the debate (again). As much as we would like to believe in things that doesn't make them real.
Which Bible do you read, Gideon? The one I've read has maybe three entries, late in the texts, which claim God to be forgiving and loving. The rest of it, plainly, is saturated with bloodletting, rape, murder, and countless atrocities - all with the blessing of, with the aid of, or by the direct hand of your God. I'm not just picking on those atrocities committed in the name of your God, but those attributed directly to His action or command.
This loving relationship you refer to is a modern invention - your God is a jealous God (His own words, I believe) and a vengeful one. Your god slaughtered, or caused to be slaughtered, many kingdoms. Your God sanctioned rape, murder, slavery, sacrifices, war, and much, much more. This is what the Bible tells us, and in so much as you accept this as proof of God, suggests that He is far from benevolent.
Believe what you will, but don't be so selective of what you deem 'proof of God'.
I'm not angry at some ethereal concept dreamed of by despots of a forgotten age - I'm angry at bigots and zealots who thrive on the ignorance of others, or refuse to be anything but ignorant themselves.
And no, I'm not angry at you, either; misguided as you are.
EDIT: I can't help wondering if you're deliberately misreading me; I have not given any case for proving that your God does not exist, but simply refuted proof that he does exist. Don't make the mistake of believing that I'm red just because I'm not blue.
It is very difficult for one to change one's perception of reality.
I think you are very right Arthurio, very right. It takes many, many hours of contemplation and searching for me. I guess I was foolish enough to think I could help some people on here with that. Although I'm not sure if I lost the argument (too prideful to even consider losing ), I do think we are at an impasse. I think most people on here don't want to admit there is the chance of God being real because that would mean they would have to do something about it. If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him. That is a huge leap for someone to take in changing their perception of reality. I am thankful for all the prodding and difficult questions from all sides on here. It really helps to keep me sharp and keeps me questioning.
WH, I'm glad you aren't mad at me.
White Hawk, I'm no stranger to the Bible. I've read it cover to cover, and I have re-read several passages over again. I've read what you are referring to. I had a really, really hard time understanding why God told Joshua to kill everyone in the land of the Hittites to make the land of Israel: men, women, children, elderly. I couldn't understand why He would do such a thing. He even wants parents to stone their disobedient children! It is so hard to see a loving God when His robes are dipped in blood (Revelation 19:13). The Bible does not try to hide God's wrath like most churches and televangelists do today. The Bible doesn't just say that God loves, it also says that God hates. He hates what is evil. We are evil. We have sinned (Romans 3:23). God hates our sin. But He loves us. He killed His own Son so we can live with Him again. I don't know any other way God can show us love. "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) But you are quite right WH, the Bible is bathed in blood. The blood of us sinners, and the blood of the only sinless One, Jesus Christ. The Bible is a book of messed up circumstances. We are a messed up race. If we were capable of doing what was right, Jesus wouldn't have had to die. God wouldn't have to send us to Hell for our sin. But we can't do what is right. We don't want to. That is why we need a Savior. That is why we need someone to die for us, and make us into new creatures who do, finally, do the right thing.
quote:If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him.
Or one could easily not give a flying bat about "Him" because in the case you present, all there is is just a chance that "God" is real. Nothing worth running in circle and scream OMG OMG there is a slightly remote chance that there possibly maybe is a "God", and he hates us for we have sinned.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-16-2008 12:40
quote:If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him. That is a huge leap for someone to take in changing their perception of reality.
That is the singular, most idiotic thing that you have posted on these boards (and you have posted ALOT of idiotic things, btw).
What you are absolutely not considering, is that we leave a chance that the Universe is not as we think it to be - that everything is but an illusion, a dream, yadda yadda yadda. In that possibility, all bets are off - that means that the chance that Zeus is real, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Celestial Teapot, the Xian god, etc are equal.
There is no reason that I or anyone else has to do something about this - because, you see, any decision in that direction is as likely to be wrong as it is to be right. Believe as you will in the Xian god, and perhaps it is Zeus awaiting you, and he is not happy with what you have been believing in!
It is like betting all your money on a billion-to-one shot : that is what you are doing.
Me, I need my money to feed my family, pay my bills, and try to be a good and productive citizen. There is no way I am wasting it on that long shot.
Now, you may win. Entirely possible. Well, good for you. Odds are, however, that you lose.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 02-16-2008 14:33
quote: Gideon said:
That is why we need a Savior. That is why we need someone to die for us, and make us into new creatures who do, finally, do the right thing.
~ Hey Jesus good buddy ol' pal.... we're not quite ready yet to ahh..... you know... do the right thing so we need someone to die for us and somebody told us your old man said it'd be ok if we....exercised some free will ... jeeez man will ya just hold still here for a minute. ~
I think your bible must've been penned by lawyers of the day... it has more damn escape clauses than a piece of Bush Cheney legislation.
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
That is the singular, most idiotic thing that you have posted on these boards
I'd say the preceding line takes that honor actually:
quote: Gideon said:
I think most people on here don't want to admit there is the chance of God being real because that would mean they would have to do something about it.
The idea of there being a chance that any particular god is real dictates absolutely nothing. Let's say there is a chance that your particular god is real. What does that have to do with anything? What must be done about it?? There is as much of a chance that Lex Luther is going to break free from his 2 dimensional prison and claim his vengeance on our planet too....must something be done about that? Must we decide whether to be with Lex Luther or against him?
quote: Gideon said:
If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him. That is a huge leap for someone to take in changing their perception of reality.
If there are gods out there, who possess such wisdom as gods are supposed to possess, I will let them decide whether they are with me or against me.
I love how I say something and four people on here go: RAWR!
It's quite fun.
What are casinos based on? Chance, percentage, etc. If there was a 5% chance you could save a person from drowning would you do it? What if you had a 60% chance of losing your leg in the process, and a 35% chance of drowning yourself? Makes it more difficult, huh? But then again, you would be making a choice, wouldn't you? That is what I was talking about. If there is a chance God is real, you have to make a decision about it. (and making the decision to not make a decision is a decision, BTW) I have made my decision about Zeus and other gods...I believe they aren't real (or at least confused for other beings). That is my decision. I decided not to live for them. I guess I will suffer the consequences if I was wrong. But statistically speaking, I doubt it. My point, which many people missed, was that with the chance of God being real and God being angry, you have to make a choice to do something. You either trust Him and do as He says, or you don't and risk the penalties. But it's a lot easier to say that there is no chance there is a God, and be able to ignore Him without any repercussions, than for you to admit there is a chance and assume the responsibility of your own life's actions.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 02-18-2008 06:19
Gideon said:
But it's a lot easier to say that there is no chance there is a God, and be able to ignore Him without any repercussions, than for you to admit there is a chance and assume the responsibility of your own life's actions.
[/quote]
Do you know what you've said here Gideon? You've said if you didn't believe in a god you would not be able to lead a responsible life...that you would not be able to take responsibility for you actions... if you did not believe in a god. That it is only your belief in a god tht allows you to be responsible.
Really??
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-18-2008 10:33
quote:But it's a lot easier to say that there is no chance there is a God, and be able to ignore Him without any repercussions, than for you to admit there is a chance and assume the responsibility of your own life's actions.
I think the opposite is harder, to be truthful.
Not to believe in gods, etc, and assume responsibility for ones actions in life.
The reason?
I am not accepting responsibility for my actions because I believe I will be rewarded with paradise.
I do so because I have learned that in the long run, this is the best way for me, myself, to function and be the best that I can be. Note that this only applies to myself (others may feel or act similarly, but I do not advocate my personal way or belief for them).
As I do not believe in gods, etc, and still assume responsiblity for my actions, that blows the quoted part of your post out of the water.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
As WebShaman has just outlined, I also choose to live. I take responsibility for my own life, and my own actions; the good I do, I do without fear that my eternal soul is staked upon it.
I have no reason to believe in a God, even as I have no reason to believe that breaking a mirror will bring me bad luck. I avoid breaking mirrors simply because they're expensive, useful, and I don't feel like sweeping up the shattered pieces - luck plays no part in my decision not to go smashing mirrors.
Of course, if it should turn out that there is a God and that He takes issue with the manner in which I lead my life, then I'll be happy to continue to have nothing to do with Him. If my soul is forfeit through lack of faith when lesser people, criminals, child-molesters, and murderers may receive forgiveness, then He is not fit to be my God. I have no place in heaven alongside those that have lead their lives poorly, yet sought forgiveness with their dying breath.
This is all moot anyway. I have no fear of what comes, and do not dread death. I have complete faith that should there come a reckoning, my life will bear scrutiny. Should there be nothing at all at the end of it all, then there's nothing to fear but oblivion.
I'm glad you take responsibility for your own life. That's great! I was hoping you would, and you wouldn't try to pin it on someone or something else. We are all responsible for what we have said or done in this lifetime. However, if you believe there is no God, you believe that you aren't accountable to Him. Perhaps your morals rest on consequences or on the betterment of society. Those are good and noble causes. However, those are not the only actions which I was speaking. Your actions towards GOD will be taken into account in the judgment. When we sin, it isn't only against another person, but it is against God as well. You can assume responsibility for those sins you commit against others, which I think you all have done. However, you don't assume the responsibility of sins you have committed against God. Every time you sin, you are saying that you know better than an all knowing God...a pretty risky move if you ask me. God will put those out of His sight who sin, because He cannot stand imperfection. A pretty high bill there, perfection. That is what it takes to earn God's respect. That is why none of us are guaranteed a place in God's Kingdom. We are pretty much guaranteed a place in the Lake of Fire. However, if we repent of our sins and believe that Jesus did die in our place, then we can secure that place in heaven.
I think White Hawk came the closest to assuming his actions himself. He left the air open that if there was a God then he would be judged by that God. That is a pretty hard step to take, since it means humbling yourself to another authority. Even if it is hypothetically .
[side theology note]Murderers and rapists are usually forgiven more because they understand their sin better. We all sin and are thus lawbreakers, or criminals. If you break the law, even once, you are a criminal. So in that definition, we are all equal in sin, since we are all law breakers[/side theology note]
(sorry, had to respond to the paradise idea. I am not living for Christ to get some sort of paradise. That's kinda stupid. Why would I work my whole life to live in a place like Cancun when I could just go there right now? No, I'm living for Jesus because my end reward is...Jesus. I get to hang out with the One who created Cancun!)
Oh dear... no, I have not taken any steps, but I am guilty of indulging you somewhat.
This all started with your claim that your god's existence could be proved scientifically. I'd take something positive away from all this if you've at least seen how clearly and utterly absurd that claim was.
_____
Personally, I feel that any being that could create 'night' and 'day' at least three days before it created the sun and the moon has some pretty neat tricks to explain, but I'd at least have to argue that the 'lesser' light was technically a reflector...
quote:Personally, I feel that any being that could create 'night' and 'day' at least three days before it created the sun and the moon has some pretty neat tricks to explain, but I'd at least have to argue that the 'lesser' light was technically a reflector...
quote: Gideon said:
However, if you believe there is no God, you believe that you aren't accountable to Him.
Clearly.
quote: Gideon said:
However, you don't assume the responsibility of sins you have committed against God. Every time you sin, you are saying that you know better than an all knowing God...a pretty risky move if you ask me.
If there were such things as gods, then maybe.
quote: Gideon said:
God will put those out of His sight who sin, because He cannot stand imperfection.
Well then, if the god you believe exists has done the things he is said to, then he must be putting himself out of his sight, as he has shown himself in his own book to be the epitome of imperfection.
quote: Gideon said:
That is why none of us are guaranteed a place in God's Kingdom.
quote: Gideon said:
However, if we repent of our sins and believe that Jesus did die in our place, then we can secure that place in heaven.
Hmmm...........
quote: Gideon said:
I think White Hawk came the closest to assuming his actions himself. He left the air open that if there was a God then he would be judged by that God.
As most of us have said repeatedly. As I said myself a few posts above. None of us here that condemn living life according to fairy tales have ever taken the stance that we are going to live the way we do only because we don't fear reprisal. You should be well aware of that, Gideon. That you do not acknowledge that is very presumptuous and arrogant of you...
quote: Gideon said:
That is a pretty hard step to take, since it means humbling yourself to another authority. Even if it is hypothetically
Humility is something you live. It doesn't take gods to live humbly. In fact, as many have said over and over, belief in gods is a very arrogant thing in itself, and it has the very real tendency to push people into arrogant lives, all while they preach humility.
{{edit -
oh, and I must have missed the "rawr" par here... I'm afraid you may be developing a Jade sized martyr complex
quote:Personally, I feel that any being that could create 'night' and 'day' at least three days before it created the sun and the moon has some pretty neat tricks to explain, but I'd at least have to argue that the 'lesser' light was technically a reflector...
This is not a brillant statement, just one who is ignorant of scripture revelation. The writers of the Genesis book are revealing the stages in which God created the beginnings. Days refer to completeness of each task. The writers didn't see God do all those created days and what God accomplished as he was doing it. No one has seen God in his Glory yet that we know. So how can they know. Through the writers revelation God has chosen to give them they relate to us with a way to make the story of creation come down to our way of thinking with their Hebrew words. God didn't go to sleep and wake up every day as we know days. The time span of these days could of been an instant or take billions of years. What is most important to the reader about the verses is all is created and comes from God. From the original text in Hebrew the meaning may give a different view but lead to the same orignal intented revelation that God wants us to understand and know and relate to others. This may be hard for an unbeliever to accept but one who responds to the call of the spirit of God will within themselves will accept that all comes from God. They may have doubts and question the Genesis writings in the way of the story telling of the prophets in those times, but yet still they have faith in the God of Adam, Moses and his chosen people. For me I need not see God to know God. I feel God.
Jade, it beggars belief that you have any understanding of the scriptures when you seem completely unable to fathom even my simple sentences. You missed the point of my statement entirely. In fact, if 'days' were a lot longer than days as we know them, then it's even more amazing that any being was able to create day and night long before creating the greater light (of the sun) and the lesser light (of the moon) to rule over them respectively.
Of course, the easy (and rather daft) answer is that these words were used in order to convey the wonder of His creation in terms that our uneducated ancestors would find easier to understand. You could have used that answer (it appears to be the stock response, AFAIK), but I imagine that you, like me, see the major flaw in passing off complete misinformation as 'dumbing down'. Telling a curious kid that lights work because there's a photon pump in the bulb is clearly a daft thing to do; if one hasn't the patience or capacity to explain things as they are, why is it better to bullsh*t?
The whole day and night existing before the Sun phenomenon falls way behind the 'centre of the Universe' claim anyway, but it tickles me to raise it all the same. It beats picking on the cud-chewing hares, plants that grew before the creation of the Sun, or four-legged fowls - though these are all mightily amusing to me also.
quote:Days refer to completeness of each task. The writers didn't see God do all those created days and what God accomplished as he was doing it. No one has seen God in his Glory yet that we know. So how can they know. Through the writers revelation God has chosen to give them they relate to us with a way to make the story of creation come down to our way of thinking with their Hebrew words.
Are you insinuating that teh Bible is a story and not an accurate one at that ... I believe the word for that is a "fiction", and that no one has seen your god ? Wow, that's a scoop.
On for probably the most quiet post in my years around this place.
If there is anything divine to life, then why not seek for it inside of yourself and the world around you, rather than in the sky above?
For I think that the first notion of humility a true Christian should belive in lies in the following question : if God is in essence perfect, isn't it sin in and of itself
to try to guess his motives?
quote:Are you insinuating that teh Bible is a story and not an accurate one at that ... I believe the word for that is a "fiction", and that no one has seen your god ? Wow, that's a scoop.
well...yes and then no...
In my bible history class I was enlighted in many things about scripture. The bible is a hand down book from genernations & generations of followers of the God of Moses/Abraham from around 1800 yrs ago. Its like a study guide to make faith richer. There are historical books, psalms, paraables and stories. Christ himself was a great story teller. And a good one at that. Using stories that were not true but told to make a point to his followers to make them understand a message that they could relate to.
And the core of his story telling was always about love, fogiveness and undertanding one another.
Was Jonah really in a whale for three days? Maybe, but I doubt it. More important is what the story points to or signifies in relation to the comming of Christ and his ministry. It is historical? Is the story of the sower who planted seeds on fertile ground true? Did Adam and Eve really bite an apple and what kind of apple? Green or red. Is it important to know what kind of apple it was. Do you see what I mean? If your looking for these kind issues to dispel truths your going about it the wrong way. The truth for Christians is the historical truth of Jesus and his message. This is the problem when persons try to take all of scripture in the literal sense for every verse or passage. This is not what the writers of the bible intended for us. It was never meant to be all of faith implemented and taught anyway. Christ was dead and risen 300 years before scripture was made avaibile to the learned and rich. Christ death did not reedeem us so we could make sure we had the right information in text. He died to save us for life eternal. He came to show us how to live by example and that is the most important part of scripture.
So, assuming it was originally intended for the following purpose :
quote:
And the core of his story telling was always about love, fogiveness and undertanding one another.
(Understanding one another). Don't you think there is more to understand to other by living life according
to whichever means have been given to you? As opposed to living it based on metaphors in a book?
Isn't that an even higher courtesy to pay to the creation?
If there ever was to be such a thing as a "manual to life", I'd be happy, but I find myself MAKING MISTAKES again and again,
and to this day haven't been struck by lightning. Guess what? I don't believe in Jesus as a messiah.
(I believe he existed though, and some other things). Am I a worst person for that?
Was Jonah really in a whale for three days? Maybe, but I doubt it. More important is what the story points to or signifies in relation to the comming of Christ and his ministry. It is historical? Is the story of the sower who planted seeds on fertile ground true? Did Adam and Eve really bite an apple and what kind of apple? Green or red. Is it important to know what kind of apple it was. Do you see what I mean
And on that note - was Jesus really crucified? Did he really come back to life after three days? was he really "god"? Maybe, but I doubt it
Yes, I see what you mean. In fact I've said such things to *you* over and over.
Just be sure to understand that what you say about some parts of the stories apply equally as truthfully to many other parts, including all of the "core" characters and stories...
The gospels in regard to the Birth/Ministry/Death are historical narratives. They are not fiction. We have many eyewitnesses in
different places who refer to the same historical narratives throughout
the new testament. We have many artifacts recovered from those
times. We have the Roman History to also corrobrate what the climate was in those times regarding Roman law and presecutions and how persons were crucified to death. We have historical evidence of persecution of Christians after the ressurection. You can argue that it was religious cult who followed a Holy man who claimed to be the savior because they were blinded by irrational thought, but in the end its all about faith. You cannot reason with faith.
If one wants to pick and choose what they believe is fiction, then its their perrogative. Those who follow Jesues will continue to do so until the end of time as they know it.
(I believe he existed though, and some other things). Am I a worst person for that?
Well what do you think is a worst person?
I don't believe that I can judge what kind of person you are.
Character wise one can assess what kind of man/woman you
reveal, but deep down to the soul only God can know. I can't
say one is right with God and one isn't. It not for anyone to make
that kind of judgement.
Per our scriptures, Jesus tells us, "those who judge will be judge harshly, & those who do not judge, will not be judged by the Lord."
Squeeze me, I think you are contradicting yourself here, let me highlight where
(whatever you think my character expresses - is up to you, we don't know each other really, but I am genuinely debating) :
quote:
I can't
say one is right with God and one isn't. It not for anyone to make
that kind of judgement.
Ok. I understand this and agree.
So why should the bible be right about what I *have* to do to lead a worthy life?
What if it was wrong? The Hebraic Torah, and the Coran ALL offer the same texts or almost (old testament = torah, coran = the bible + 600 more years
of history and parables).
What if there was an alternate way to read the same texts that offers more satisfaction to both your God and the humans
he assumedly conceived?
And what if the best way to respect creation was to enjoy it's diversity
out of the guidelines given by a book - to be able not to rely on a book, but one's own soul and goodness to do the right thing,
and on that alone? What if the bible was, in parts, obsolete?
What if living one's life based on instinct and reason was God's true desire?
Hmmm... Let's see what the basic message in the bible is...
In a nutshell:
- I demand that you live accordingly to my rules alone and bow before my greatness at all times because I'm the ruler.
- As long as you do that I might reward you.
- Should you use your free will and choose not to obey me, I will have you put on fire and torment you forever..."
Or perhaps this:
- I created everything and everyone, I'm infinitely powerful and exist in everything.
- Then I gave you free will and left you to do whatever.
- At some point in time I will collect those that I deem worthy and burn the rest.
To me this principle seems all too human, in fact it would be very very easy to point at well known names throughout history who applied that principle in real life, on real living human beings.
Would I follow a person that applies these principles? Doh, no...
Would I follow a god that applies these principles? Doh, no...
Then, what about all the "other" religions???
I have no hard fact, but surley there must be a lot more humans beliving in something else than the bible?
Should they be doomed to eternal suffering and torment, or should xians be doomed, the majority wins, or???
Hey, what if we start fighting over this, let's just kill a shitload of people in order to decide who has the most powerful or "right" god!!!
Oh, wait, we are already doing this in the name of our gods...
Yup, religion really brought love, peace and understanding to us humans, don't you agree?
It actually seems like humanity is living accordingly to the principles outlined above.
But hey, it probably makes life easier if you can explain everything with "he gave us free will to f*ck up everything we want, but he will forgive us if we believe in him...".
IF there is a god, in any way, shape or form, he/she/it would have abandoned humanity a loooong time ago and chalked us up as a failed social experiment.
And before you say it...
I knew I should have bought the domain www.meetabitterandcynicalperson.com but I'm deeply disturbed that someone can look at the misery we humans create on a daily basis and attribute it to "gods will"!?!?!?
Someone please accept some form of personal responsibility for friggins sake!!!
/Dan
*/ I'm a ginio.....genios......genu......smart person! /*
{cell 260}{Blog}
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Based on your behavior here, for your sake I'd hope that's not true!
IN WHAT WAY HAVE I JUDGED A PERSON ON THIS FORUM...YOU ARE REFERENCING I THINK WHO IS GOOD AND WHO IS BAD...I NEVER DO THAT.
JUDGEMENT ON WHO IS GOING TO HEAVEN AND WHO IS GOING TO HELL IS NOT FOR ANYONE TO DECIDE ON THIS PLANET. SINCE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE GOD OF THE BIBLE AND ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE DEPTH OF HIS TEACHINGS, YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND WHEN SOMEONE SPEAKS OF HIM IN REGARD TO FAITH MATTERSIN SPREADING THE GOSPEL IN SHOWING WHAT IS IS TO BE CHRISTIAN.
You judge all the time. Jesus made it very clear in the stories of him that there is a lot more to judgement than god deciding who goes to heaven and hell, and he made it clear that it is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law that is important.
If you are claiming to be the one who shows by example what it is to be christian, then the religion is in a poor state indeed.
Fortunately for other christians, there are many other examples of positive christianity we can look to.
..not meaning to interrupt, but : Charles Darwin. And Bugimus. Not that you are "bad" to me jade, as I told you already,
but these are people who can accept that faith cannot deal with deeply emotional issues as abortion.
quote:but these are people who can accept that faith cannot deal with deeply emotional issues as abortion.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS FURTHER..??
YOU CAN BE AGAINST ABORITON AND BE CHRISTIAN..OR NOT CHRISTIAN...????OR BECAUSE YOU DON'T DEBATE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES YOUR A BETTER CHRISTIAN????
ITS GOOD TO HAVE ROLE MODEL CHRISITANS TO ASPIRE TO..I AM IN NO WAY A ROLE MODEL CHRISTIAN..THERE ARE MANY CHRISIANS WHO DO NOT TAKE A STAND IN EMOTIONAL ISSUES IN FEAR OF REJECTING, HURTING OR MAKING OTHERS UNEASY WHO LIVE OPPOSED TO THE LIFE THAT A CHRISITAN SHOULD FOLLOW. THEY REMAIN SILENT. THAT IS OK FOR THEM IF THAT IS THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO FOLLOW CHRIST. WHAT I POST IN VIEW OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT MY CHRISTIAN THOUGHT. ITS THE SAME THEOLOGY FOR MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS. WHAT I POST IS NOTHING NEW. I JUST FEEL THE BODY ITSELF IS A THEOLOGY OF STUDY.. THERE IS MORE THAN JUST FLESH.
Ok, please just chill on the caps lock - it's hurting my mind It's usually associated to screaming in chat and forum.
I feel a body is more than just flesh too, but when dealing with issues as sensitive as abortion,
I do not give a damn wether "killing" is a cardinal sin and what is in the scriptures, or things of that kind -
and remember, in my belief system, "Life" IS what you call God (so my belief system makes me hate the fact of damaging life).
BUT I'd consider the case-by-case basis,
and for example, in a situation extreme (young girl pregnant from a rape), the implications of giving birth to a child,
according to logics, far outweigh the benefits of keeping the child alive - it is very sensitive and nobody is a fair judge,
but it sounds way more "charitable" and Christian to leave it up to the mother wether she should have the kid or not.
Darwin was ok with religion AND a pioneer in science because of that.
Bugiums is a Bible advocate, but he appreciates science and weighs each and every fact against reason too.
Belief in scriptures should never obliterate our will to reason things and make a proper choice that we own
in any given situation.
sorry about the caps...using caps as I don't have my glasses today..I am squinting....
ok...
quote:Belief in scriptures should never obliterate our will to reason things and make a proper choice that we own
in any given situation.
This sounds ok to me..that is why you have a freedom to do what pleases you according to your way of seeing life...You are your own Master of your destiny.
quote:If there ever was to be such a thing as a "manual to life", I'd be happy, but I find myself MAKING MISTAKES again and again,
and to this day haven't been struck by lightning. Guess what? I don't believe in Jesus as a messiah.
Well, to me thats what life is about and we are suppose to learn from our mistakes in general. Right? ....THis is the way of the Cross for Christians...We fall, but we get up and try again and again.. The story of the cross is for us to imitate the walk of Jesus to Calvery to his death to self for love of others.
You pick up your cross, its heavy because life is hard, you struggle, you stumble, you fall, but you get up again and pick up your cross and keep walking and when you get to the end you have to die. Jesus death gives us the way to die to self for love of others. This is the only message he wants us to remember in our hearts. Yes... we are given a book of laws but that is just for reference. The bible is not meant to be all of faith, just a study guide. Could I be a Christian without the bible..Yes. There was no bible for 300 years till after the death of Christ. And the faith was strong, people were killed for their Christian faith. To sum it up: Jesus was our way, an imitation to do good and be good to others by giving your total self in marriage, parenting and friendships. For Christians to be human is to try to imitate the perfect human.
There truly was a man born in Bethalem and his name was Jesus. How he lived and died has affected all of mankind in history to this day and will so till the end of time as we know it.
If I tilt my head just so and squint just the right way, I actually find that last post from Jade to be less than completely nonsensical. Of course, countless people have died for their faith throughout the ages, Christian or otherwise (perhaps, in many cases, at the hands of Christians), and many have had their personal crosses to bear against the persecution and hardships visited upon them by others of a zealous and maniacal bent... but it makes your specific choice of mentor no less valid, I suppose.
Of course, for anyone to strive to be human, perfect or otherwise, is to accept that nobody is perfect, and that nobody should ever claim to be.
(pulls out NLP handbook - and writes down : "People have clearer thoughts and communication when there is room for
positive emotions for them in a communication. A simple hug and active listening can go great ways in making
people express the best of themselves. A good vibe stimulates the mind and soul."
Re-reads one of the core principles of NLP :
"every behavior has a positive intention")
OZONE Asylum
posted 01-18-2008 12:41
), and I put a huge magnifying glass on it. That was probably the best time in my life, where I learned to make my beliefs my own.
so how do you define Santa Claus ?
