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argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 08:54 Edit Quote

Hello all,

Just a few quick points :
- anyone else sees the interest of clean archives and would like to clear the sink at some point?
- anyone else is extremely annoyed by spambots and their ways to try and sneak links and stuff in the titles of threads?

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 11:12 Edit Quote

I just sent angry emails to both addresses available on the replica jewellery site, and posted an equally venomous guestbook comment (though I believe they moderate their guestbook). I think I might have some fun signing them up to a long, long list of twisted and revolting porn sites... um, when I find such a list, of course...

I believe that positive action should be taken against any company that indulges in such practices, or allows such practices in the promotion of their business.

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argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 11:47 Edit Quote

Legal action is a good idea.

I think technical action can be taken here and am willing to propose my services - but I have a problem at hands, maybe you can help me :
rebuilding shattered relationships is confronted to a mental image, and natural prejudices from the previously
"injured" or offended. It is difficult to accept a person has changed and avoid falling back into "defensive" mode
as seen from your misinterpretations of my "alienation of Jestah" (re-read and see for yourself
that you were distorting simple statements into insult/agression based on a previous experience).

This is all natural - it's a pain in the ass, but it is natural.

I do have very concrete ideas as to how to adress the two above issues - spam them, they'll know you exist, they'll spam back more
But there is a way, a very good one.

The problem is fostering this idea properly while being ME - because the real obstacle
will be the "what's his hidden Agenda" kind of emotional response.

I don't expect that to "wear off" in no time, but do you think you can help me adress this?

(Edited by argo navis on 01-23-2008 11:48)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 11:53 Edit Quote

Huh??

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 12:00 Edit Quote

In short : you said I was trying to alienate Jestah or something in the misc forum.
But my point there was very different from what you perceived.

Here and now, spambots and the archival problem can be restricted using AI principles -
but the idea will not be easilly received if coming from ME.

Because the community expects and reads tantrums, or a need for approval, where there is none and will be none -
you jumped to an "InI trying to alienate Jestah" conclusion. But you're talking to an "argo navis
playing with statistic laws and google pagerank, and proposing a game" - big difference between what you
expect, what is said, and what is perceived.

Big - INSTANT difference. Does not leave me room for much contributions if I have to walk on eggshells all the time.

So, the question again (off topic but) : do you think you can help me leverage that false expectation?

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 16:15 Edit Quote

Why on earth would you want to leverage a false expectation? Are you in Junior Management or something?

Look, don't worry about it - this thread isn't following the expected topic (therefore, my expectation was mislead - but not false, as it was in earnest - and I don't think there's much point in leveraging an earnestly mislead expectation any more than a false one). I think I'll go get my jollies elsewhere.

Do you need a broom for those eggshells, or are you just going to leave them where you dropped them?

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argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 16:52 Edit Quote

Eggshells, to close the parenthesis : I need no broom, I need prejudice free minds ready to welcome change
and avoid stroking the past - for you and I cannot change it There's the now. Then the future,
you want it full of "hey InI you did that seven years ago - I KNOW you" kinds of comments?

Not me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back on track :
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Legal action against spammers exists to an extent - but it's very limited, because information tends to be free
and spamming uses this. I have reported to the fbi branch who does handle this, but they cannot handle it
well enough - it's just not possible with a technology like internet.

The only realistic option to limiting it here and now (and a similar one to your mailbox spam filter) is AI : I happen
to be fairly documented about it. Make a bot that can "mod", or assist mods in decision, you get a spam killer - further
than Bayesian filtering - a lot more accurate if implemented properly.

Hence the question : am I the only one who would "love" to see such a solution go live sometime?
And to that you can answer.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 17:22 Edit Quote

Maybe.

AI solutions tend to be fickle. The reason is simply that AI is, by its very definition, unintelligent. Can you testify as to the efficacy of such a system? Are there existing examples of such a system in current application within a forum structure?

I'd say it would be more work than it's worth.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 17:42 Edit Quote

There is one on the web, but it's in french. ( www.akinator.com )

It guesses characters based on questions and your answers : I have seldom managed to beat it,
even when trying extreme things.

AI is not as unintelligent as it seems nowadays : it still is a lot in "research mode", but there are high end, million dollar
worthy systems that do amazing things.

I made a pre-project for this called automod : it got good results based on "Expert Systems" (decision assistants
that can diagnose a disease, predict a change in market, and on top of it all, they can LEARN).

...But such a system alone was not completely capable of doing the whole job and "getting" the subtleties
of human conversations. It did fairly well, and still does, but that's it.

"Akinator", the french thing, is clealry an extension of exactly the same app, BUT it mixes "expert systems" with
"Fuzzy logics" to make it all very, very, VERY hard to beat.

With expert systems able to learn and decide, and fuzzy logics allowing for "not so clear cut answers",
you'd get such a mod bot - and it is some work yeah, quite a large one (can be six months for a man alone,
a lot less for a well organized community).

To me, the archives are precious (avoid redundant questions) and coupled with the Wikki, they'd make something
like Wikipedia... for webdesign (and nutters worldwide)! Talk about a WOWish kind of resource.

Talk about a priceless, impossible to lose resource - talk about sales possibilities for a commercial version of such an app,
and extensions in the long term. Talk about a lifecycle - virtually infinite.

...
I know, ambitious and all but :
1) Feasible.
2) Part of it is ready.
3) An analog system exists and is growing in popularity.
4) It can only happen here.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 18:33 Edit Quote

No, then. Development (millions?!?), application, and maintenance of such a system would be a hundred times as much work as simply trawling through the forums by hand and deleting the spam.

I still advocate positive action - not necessarily legal action, but an action that is legal (perhaps) aimed at creating a disadvantage for those that employ such practices. Counter-spamming, for instance, and posting articles on their practices on major review sites - emphasising the opinion (repeatedly) that nobody should give their money to a company that promotes its business in such under-handed ways.

Who fancies founding a website exposing businesses that employ spam?

Actually - forget that - it would probably end up serving as a form of publicity in itself.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-23-2008 23:09 Edit Quote

I did the legal bit : WH, do I really have to teach you how to read?

I did track back a few companies, and report them to the FBI : think about it in legal terms.
In really legal terms : how do you forbid a company to use email in these days and times?
How do you prevent a troll from signing up to a forum?
How do you completely remove viruses from the face of the earth (because many spammers are viruses sitting
on your comp, or mine, or his..).

How do you do what's impossible?
The question you're asking is : "how many lawyers does it take to catch the moon and bring it back here?"

Expert Systems that cost millions are for medical or financial purposes : akinator.com is free - and probably a student's job.
Automod exists, works, is free, and it was a student's job. All it really takes is fuzzy logics in the mix.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 01-24-2008 10:38 Edit Quote

WTF? Who do you think you're addressing? Do you talk to your mother like that? If you spoke to me like that on the street, I'd feed you the freaking pavement, you offensive little sh*t!

If you are incapable of understanding my posts, simply do not respond to them - I don't give a flying blue monkey what you've researched as regards legal action - my statement has absolutely nothing to do with your assertions in this respect.

This conversation is no longer of interest to me. Grow up, stop being an offensive little kid, and get a life. I'm tired of you now - you're incapable of mature and reasonable conversation on any subject; confrontational, overly defensive, aggressive, and quite frankly, incomprehensible.

What the hell are you talking about??

Actually, forget that - I don't care - there is no sense to be made from your gibberish.
_____

I offer my sincere apologies to everyone else - I'm not normally given to resorting to such a tone, and shall refrain from any further exchanges with InI. Sorry.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 01-24-2008 16:18 Edit Quote

I see another thread has degenerated into negativity.

Again, my sig is applicable here.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-24-2008 16:49 Edit Quote

Timeout : http://www.ozoneasylum.com/29912

I did NOT notice I was offending you in any way - see Blaise's explanation.
I did take absolutely 0 offense at any given point, I just happened to cross the line of "teasing back too hard"
and you just happened to take it negatively.

To me, bits like this simply feel like I am speaking "chinese" - again, check Blaise's rephrasing : what he phrased is what I meant,
I didn't even think for a single second that you would read :

"are you too stupid to read?"

I thought that my discussing it with you implied "I respect your intelligent input" and, therefore,
that such a comment would be taken as :

"I answered your question several times already, I know my posts are long but we would both spare time if you cared to
check the tiny details that DO matter".

-------------------------------------------
WS, you see what "yourself makes a cause of adversity" - your sig does apply in one direction or the other -
and while I understand how you draw this quick conclusion, there are two ways to skin a cat.

Can you demonstrate positivity yourself and try to see that?

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 01-25-2008 04:35 Edit Quote
quote:

Do you talk to your mother like that? If you spoke to me like that on the street, I'd feed you the freaking pavement, you offensive little sh*t!



That one is superb. ROFLMAO. Superb - I'll answer it for fuck's sake :

My mother actually DOES talk to me like that and worse - she is a pure smartie, an immensely generous and spontaneous person, and the most admirable of women.
Hell, she is the person I most admire for the way she leads her life in kindness and sustained strength calls maximum respect.

AND I do reciprocate and she -more often than not- laughs about it, or will tell me how she feels clearly - cockyness is the standard tone in the family yes.

...With this in mind, dragging my mother into this? Seriously?

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 01-25-2008 09:47 Edit Quote

And thus the circle is complete



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