Topic: Let us discuss Argo Navis Pages that link to <a href="https://ozoneasylum.com/backlink?for=30092" title="Pages that link to Topic: Let us discuss Argo Navis" rel="nofollow" >Topic: Let us discuss Argo Navis\

 
Author Thread
WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 17:01 Edit Quote

I am posting this to get a consensus about how the Asylum views this member.

As of late, the member Argo Navis has become very bellicose and has been involved in a number of threads that broke down into flames.

I have moved some of the worse ones down here, to avoid having posts of flames amid the otherwise useful information and threads located in those respective forums.

I think the "three strikes and you are out" rule is a good one, one that I hold to be relatively fair. Ini, Mauro_, Argo Navis - three strikes.

In my book, he is out.

However, I do not decide policy here at the Asylum. So, I have started this thread to get a consensus.

As I expect him to come into this thread and spout flames, I have posted it down here for exactly that reason.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 17:17 Edit Quote

People need to calm down and chill out. I won't choose a 'side' here. Hope you forgive me.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 17:28 Edit Quote

Actually, I will take Webshaman's side on this one.

It's absolutely inacceptable for anyone here to get angry, anytime.
Absolutely inacceptable for anyone to ask questions that are not valid by the jurisdiction of
Webshaman or any other mod. And apologies where they are due and only there
are NO reason to genuinely calm down about the issue as a whole.

Furthermore, shutting him down can only enhance the quality of the place's discussions
AND this MUST happen in the name of free expression.


So, how do we go about it?
1) We block his username. But he can login with another username.
2) We block his ip. But he can disguise it at will.
3) We block his original domain. But he can disguise it at will.
4) We hire someone to physically kill him.

...

Option 5, though, may work : everybody takes responsibility for their faults,
and as Arthurio pointed out, calms down.

But that one is not appropriate : I mean, after all, the guy spoke his mind. I'd opt for 4)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 18:48 Edit Quote

I guess this marks the end of a much needed reality check for all : back to talking like I didn't know I am in the Matrixx.

I take the opportunity to answer Tao's question about low self esteem : it's unfortunately blatant - and contagious
from the consistent ways many people fail to acknowledge, or say the truth - and instead resort to denial, dellusion, and other
practices for "pushing" a point of view. Which happens in all communications, only way too frequently right here.

It's also blatant from the way people like WebShaman consider an apology as a sign of weakness,
and bullying covertly as a sign of strength : thank you for returning to me the energy you were stealing from me
with the coercion attempt - I may have ended up thinking you had a non-personal point.

I DO apologize where I find I have a true fault, all it takes is pointing the mentionned faults to me in a sensible OR honest way -
ideally both.

Cheers,
Argo

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 19:17 Edit Quote

It's strangely compelling to see the gradual decay of an inmate's mind, to watch as a personality expressed only in the glowing orange words of the Asylum slowly suffers a break-down.

It's unfortunate that he can't just go quietly crazy - he has to make so much bloody noise about it!

I'm torn between pity and amusement... um... no, I can't make a decision. While it is blatantly beyond question that he needs help, I don't think that further exclusion and rejection counts as such.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 19:29 Edit Quote
quote:

I don't think that further exclusion and rejection counts as such.



Says the guy who threatened me to beat me to the ground, called my moms as an argument,
and recently, introduced my girlfriend in to play, and NOW is diagnosing from within his straightjacket.

quote:

pointing the mentionned faults to me in a sensible OR honest way -
ideally both.

Option 5, though, may work : everybody takes responsibility for their faults,
and as Arthurio pointed out, calms down.



Got more fuel for my fire? More ways to prove what I say? Enjoy yourself.
But as Arthurio and I said above, it may be an opportunity for everybody involved to grow up.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-11-2008 19:31)


Final edit for today :

quote:

I take the opportunity to answer Tao's question about low self esteem : it's unfortunately blatant - and contagious
from the consistent ways many people fail to acknowledge, or say the truth - and instead resort to denial, dellusion, and other
practices for "pushing" a point of view. Which happens in all communications, only way too frequently right here.



I think I will make that a sig.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-11-2008 20:01)

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 20:00 Edit Quote

Argo, if I were you I just wouldn't bother biting the bate that's been set here, nothing will come of it apart from WH's amusement and perhaps a few others.

It's another typical example of the trite bullying usually found in the Philosophy and Other Silliness threads centred around Gideon and Jade.

Just ignore this thread, ignore any other threads that involves similar bating, and simply just don't bother wasting your own energy thinking about what has been said in those wasteful arguments before. Just focus on your positive posts.

You don't need to sink to anyone else's level.

mas
Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: the space between us
Insane since: Sep 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 20:52 Edit Quote

i think i'm on Webshamans side here...

quote:

Arthurio said:

People need to calm down and chill out.


i my point of view, everyone is down and chilled until Argo Navis joins the discussion. Nearly all threads seem to get off the track when he starts talking. this can easily be observed and is not an exaggeration.

So, how do we go about it?
1) We block his username. But he can login with another username.
2) We block his ip. But he can disguise it at will.
3) We block his original domain. But he can disguise it at will.
4) We hire someone to physically kill him.
5) everybody takes responsibility for their faults, and as Arthurio pointed out, calms down.

i would like to add another option:
6) just ignore Argo Navis. if you dont want to ignore ALL of his posts (which would probably the best idea, but is only useful if everyone does so), then just start ignoring his offences and replies that cause all these fights. just as

quote:

Blaise said:

You don't need to sink to anyone else's level.


that says it all. stop sinking to his level, dont feed the flame.

my 2 cents

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 21:08 Edit Quote

Strangely enough, mas, we'd agree on all but two points :

quote:

(which would probably the best idea, but is only useful if everyone does so),



Problem is : when I am answering complicated Ubuntu problems, suggesting excellent views about developping Arthurio's web ideas as today,
or adressing a problem kimson had with Flash/PNG, it takes a moron not to answer and discuss naturally. You can't force the flow of communication
one way or another - it's as moot as points 1, 2, and 3.

I am NOT seeking for the attention here. I am outraged and disappointed at idiocies professed by some to the point
of giving up on any form of diplomacy. Kindly note I asked Webshaman to avoid the coercion and avoid me a while ago,
same goes for poi, same goes for you.


In the end, the truely viable and only mature take is option 5 : you think you're perfect? Get over it.
The rules for communicating properly with me are established in "Witch Hunt is on" : just don't demonstrate,
blatantly, or not, you are a douche, it should be enough for me to answer politely.

Because the problem doesn't take roots in my answers - it takes root in attitudes, fears, expectations,
inability of many minds to step out of their comfort zone without becoming provocative, insulting, etc.

Or trying to come up with, what you just pointed out : useless avoidance rather than a genuine attempt at resolution.
Avoiding me won't prevent me from helping anyone, talking with anyone, and generally speaking my mind as I please.

Btw, you're naturally buying into a "debasement" approach here.
The link to what it means is in the next thread, you know, "manipulation...". Everybody has such techniques, some make them blatant.

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 21:14 Edit Quote
quote:

Blaise said:

Just ignore this thread, ignore any other threads that involves similar bating, and simply just don't bother wasting your own energy thinking about what has been said in those wasteful arguments before. Just focus on your positive posts.

You don't need to sink to anyone else's leve



Just thought I'd point out, for the record, that you've got things just a little backward there Blaise
This thread is very obviously in response to a great deal of theatrics by argo...not the other way around.

FWIW

Argo - I've said everything I can say to you.
~shrug~

Do with it what you will...

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 21:38 Edit Quote

What I'll mostly do is follow Blaise's advice : sadly enough, he got it perfectly right me thinks, some people here
are hindering the quality of the board as a whole, and I am simply unable to do that alone.

A big. A truely BIG person - and I wish you wouldn't disappoint me in that regard - would not point fingers outwards,
but would acknowledge their share of anything that helped a conflict occur : in any conflict there are at least 2 involved,
and more often than not, a 50%/50% share of faults.

For the record : mas is one of the first persons to spontaneously have lashed out at me since my return,
resorting to calling me names immediately, since post 1.

What I predicted from WS attiude, for I have observed it so many times, and so did Blaise, has occured exactly as I predicted it.

The weaknesses of Jestah? They're there to see, as he is again on a "you're full of shit and I know but I never actually cared to check"
kind of rampage.

From the guy who said "apple is shit" to later say "hey look, they got me a new mac". The guy who criticizes pre-emptively and without a clue.
Does it with apple, does it with me, does it with his dog for certain.

One of the strengths of the Doc was tolerance, true open mindedness, etc. How much of a tribute do you feel anyone of you,
hell, anyone of us is currently paying to that state of mind?

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 21:53 Edit Quote

About mas point #6 : On another website I go to, pouet.net, there is/was a lot of trolls hurting everybody. The site admins agreed to put an attribute with the userId of people's post/threads/... this way people were able to use their browser's user stylesheet capability to filter out things comming from the of userIds they wanted to ignore, for real. I wrote a userScript to have a GUI to shun on/off users. Integrating that script/GUI it into the site itself takes seconds. The admins hoped for the best and did not take this extra step.

It is sad we had to do that, but it worked pretty well.

In the case of the Asylum, it can be as simple as changing :

code:
<div class="post clear" id="post_1">

into

code:
<div class="post clear user31415" id="post_1">

Then the CSS to filter out a user's post work in all major browsers.


argo navis:

quote:
But as Arthurio and I said above, it may be an opportunity for everybody involved to grow up.

Would be nice if as a grown up you showed us the lead.



(Edited by poi on 03-11-2008 22:00)

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:12 Edit Quote

As an excercise, Ini/Mauro_/Argo Navis, I want you to keep track of who says what in this thread.

It is the sole reason why I posted it.

Consider it a mirror to bounce back to you what others are seeing.

It is about recognition.

Then when you have done that, reflect upon the words in my sig. They were conceived by a fairly wise individual.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

mas
Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: the space between us
Insane since: Sep 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:18 Edit Quote
quote:
For the record : mas is one of the first persons to spontaneously have lashed out at me since my return,
resorting to calling me names immediately, since post 1.


for the record: it was not since post 1, it was since post ~650. (your postcount now is 862, the discussion you are reffering to is about a month old...go figure)
true. i felt offended by you. but unlike you, i've learned from this mistake and am now ignoring such posts.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:24 Edit Quote
quote:

argo navis said:

The weaknesses of Jestah? They're there to see, as he is again on a "you're full of shit and I know but I never actually cared to check"
kind of rampage.

From the guy who said "apple is shit" to later say "hey look, they got me a new mac". The guy who criticizes pre-emptively and without a clue.
Does it with apple, does it with me, does it with his dog for certain.




Most of your posts are nonsensical but I just don't understand this Apple thing. Even if I said "apple is shit", which I didn't, what does it even have to do with anything? Lets say for argument sake that I do hate Apple - never mind the multiple computers that I've purchased from them - why do you care? And more importantly, why do you keep bringing it up?

This is now the third or forth thread in the past week or so that you brought me into that I wasn't a part of. How can you possibly keep crying that everyone is attacking you?

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:40 Edit Quote

I hadn't really noticed bellicose... maybe annoyingly postastic... but I tend to not read really long threads that don't especially interest me, so maybe I missed it.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:43 Edit Quote

poi, what's involved in what you have posted above?

What I mean is, is this something you can do or does it have to be done by TP? Many message boards have features to ignore certain users. In the case of Ini and whatever other new names he creates, I think it will be invaluable.

Blaise
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: London
Insane since: Jun 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:49 Edit Quote

DL I didn't get anything mixed up, the fact is what I said in the end swings both ways, as mas emphasized.

The good people here are in part responsible for 'the beast' they created, it takes much less energy to just ignore and forget about useless posts in a simple forum, so let's all just move along.

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 23:38 Edit Quote

Blaise I respect your POV but... no-one here created a beast.
Ignoring bad behaviour does not make it go away and I do say that AG's behaviour is at times insulting, and he shows no sign of changing, and he has been given chanced time and time again.

I know this is in the past but it should not be overlooked that this person actively threatened to take the Doc and the Asylum to court if ALL of his posts were not removed. That is not the behaviour of a reasonable person.
OK that was then and this is now he came back under a great pretence and although he did publicly apologise, he apologised for hiding his true identity. NOT for all the mess he created in one of his other identities.

I want to look at the most recent thing that happened today because we can go on for ages with all the arguments that have happened.

AG says

quote:
Watch out for being perceived as me or an attention whore (this thread may come across as that, I see a fun exercise about self image) :
it's easy to trigger this feeling here because many people around have a low self esteem and are prone to perceiving agression
where there is none.



My answer

quote:
Totally unnecessary. How would you know "many people round have a low self esteem"?



AG's response

quote:

argo navis said:

it's unfortunately blatant - and contagious
from the consistent ways many people fail to acknowledge, or say the truth - and instead resort to denial, dellusion, and other
practices for "pushing" a point of view. Which happens in all communications, only way too frequently right here.



This is ranting and wrong and does not really make sense.
I have visited many many forums and been a member of quite a few of them. Without a shadow of a doubt this is the most balanced, intelligent, honest, truthful and helpful forum I have known

quote:

argo navis said:
It's also blatant from the way people like WebShaman consider an apology as a sign of weakness,
and bullying covertly as a sign of strength



This not only is completely untrue. It is a blatant attempt at baiting WS and others into an argument. It is not a piece of considered judgement.

I do not know what your opinion of me is Blaise but I have no ulterior motives, I am not a bully I do not belong to a "let's all hate AG" club. The reason I stop and pick up on some of AG's behaviour is that I believe he is a self centred selfish arrogant bully at times and loves to be the centre of attention, and it seems any attention will do.

It was a very cunning move getting all his previous posts removed I think because now there is no point of reference to the previous deplorable behaviour.
Do you or anyone else think that I enjoy all this negativity. Is it just a coincidence that AG is at the centre of so much arguing, so much petty name calling. I think not

I am sick of the whole argue navis episode. I suspect he thrives on this disruption and is enjoying every minute.

Tell me someone please, as AG seems to be revelling in the thought that the Asylum is unable to do anything to stop him (or anyone else) from continually behaving badly and not getting banned as per his first post. it's like saying I can do anything I want and none of you can do anything to stop me.
If this is true then I can see my time in any forum that is infected with a character who seems to revel in disruption, as very limited if not at an end.

I have better things to do with my time than put up with idiots like that.


Those who look for monsters should look to it that
they do not become monsters. For when you gaze
long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 23:42 Edit Quote

Jestah: Some one with FTP access to the Asylum have to add something like " user_$userId" in the CLASS attribute of the TR containing people's posts/threads. Ideally this should be only 2 places in the code. Then adding the GUI is a matter of adding script tag in the header or footer includes of the Asylum.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 00:42 Edit Quote

Do you have FTP access or is it the Doc and TP alone?

kuckus
Paranoid (IV) Mad Librarian

From: ber/ger
Insane since: Dec 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 00:47 Edit Quote

Hey again...

What does everyone think of poi's suggestion? If we can agree on having it, I think I'd be all for it.


The technicalities we surely could take care of...

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 00:54 Edit Quote

Tao - generally, the Asylum has stood as a bastion against banning (and although not a rule set in stone, against deleting posts and threads). Even locking a thread is something normally done only after serious thought has been given to doing so.

In the entire history of the Asylum, I think there has only been a handful of banning Asylum members (one of which was Ini).

Of course, he came back under the avatar of Mauro_ - and now Argo Navis.

For the record, I am against permanent bans.

I support temporary revoking posting privileges, based on the severity of the transgression. I also think that Poi's idea is pretty interesting and certainly worth persuing further.

Note that I do not decide Asylum policy, I merely am a member and attempt to do my best to carry out my Moderator duties.

As for Ini/Mauro_/Argo Navis, I still hope that he will eventually realize that he is the sole cause of his adversities, anyone with even half the intelligence and self-awareness that he says he possesses would be able to discern that from the many, many examples in the threads he has been involved in.

Obviously other members of the Asylum post here, and do not continually draw flames upon themselves (even Jade does not have the dispensity to draw flames upon herself as Ini/Mauro_/Argo Novis does). It is even true to say that the overwhelming majority of Asylum members can and do regularly post and communicate with one another in various threads without resorting to negative comments, personal remarks, or flaming one another, even when in disagreement.

Ini/Mauro_/Argo Novis is very well aware that he has problems - it has been pointed out to him time and time again. He came back as Mauro_ and asked for forgiveness for his actions and transgressions as Ini, and admitted to being the cause of his own adversities. Of course, the change he said that he had undergone was only skin deep, as time showed.

Again, Ini/Mauro_/Argo Navis returned, this time with an identity that he did not immediately associate with past ones. While it is true that some members of the Asylum knew this in advance, none of those who knew went about flaming or baiting Argo Navis in attempts to somehow "trip him up" or "hunt him down". They also did not go around revealing who Argo Navis was, either.

In end effect, there was no witch hunt at all. On the contrary, there was the opposite - he was given more than a fair chance to prove that he had indeed changed and was willing to become a peaceful and productive member of the forum.

Again, the change was only cosmetic, as recent events have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Thus, it is to conclude that the only change that Ini/Mauro_/Argo Navis is interested in is not self-change, but a change in how the Asylum members perceive him. Unfortunately, he still does not seem to realize, despite the many years gone by now, that the adversities that he faces are caused solely by his own actions. That the Asylum perceives him as he truly is, how he presents himself.

As many other esteemed members of this forum have pointed out in the past, Ini/Mauro_/Argo navis has deep seated issues, real ones, and he really needs to seek out professional counseling.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 01:05 Edit Quote

Jestah et al: I don't have FTP access. AFAIK only TP and the Doc do, but that shouldn't be a problem if the Mad Scis decide to implement this user shunning capability.

Also, FYI the IDs of the users one decide to shun are stored in a cookie. Therefore it's up the end user to decide who they want to shun. But of course the web site can wipe the cookie to give shunned users a chance, or add a value in the cookie if the vox populi expressed strong opinion to shun a user ... which changes can easily be ruled out by the end users.



(Edited by poi on 03-12-2008 01:22)

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 01:29 Edit Quote

Thanks for taking the time to explain that WebShaman, it really is appreciated. Even though I have been here for what ~runs off to check~ crikey five years! I have also spent large portions of that disconnected from the net. I missed some parts of the sad history you have outlined above.

I can't help but feel desperately sorry for argue navis (sorry I can't help but try to inject a little levity into the very sad proceedings) I mean argo navis. I just do not understand where he gets all his anger from, but I suppose that is part of the dilemma.

This story comes to mind at times like this. I'm not too sure of the provenance but that does not detract from the truth it hold for all of us.

quote:

Cherokee Story: Two Wolves

A Cherokee Elder was teaching his grandchildren about life. He said to them, "A fight is going on inside me... it is a terrible fight between two wolves.

One wolf represents fear, anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride and superiority.

The other stands for joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.

This same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too."

They thought about it for a minute and then one child asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old man simply replied, "The one you feed."



(Edited by Tao on 03-12-2008 01:33)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 01:36 Edit Quote

/me howls for Tao and the greater good of this orange place.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 01:40 Edit Quote

Nice story - some real nuggets of wisdom in there.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 02:22 Edit Quote
quote:

Blaise said:

it takes much less energy to just ignore and forget about useless posts in a simple forum, so let's all just move along.



Well that much I certainly agree with!

=)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:14 Edit Quote

In the grand sequence of events : it is the first thing I asked - beng ignored.
By poi. Specifically.

I consider the solution not only fair : I consider it positive (and extending it to all users - an ignore button, makes for flame control).

quote:

Ignoring bad behaviour does not make it go away



Replicating it makes for escalation, the rest of what Blaise said applies as well.
I even appreciate the term "beast" used by Blaise, because it's very tongue-in-cheek : there is no fight inside of me.

I have the creeps at seeing what is occuring - the creeps of a lifetime : all the facts I mentionned about my life
are real, and easy to prove - a fortune is ahead of me with little effort, which would make sense to anyone with a cultural background
about Switzerland : it's a country full of money, technology, and in general, extremely high quality services, including school and studies.

Nestle and PM happen to have their HQ... oddly enough? In Lausanne.
WORLD HQ.

Yes I have the anxiety which accompanies the possibilities offered to me. I am proud of myself : completely.

I still do not see the same issues you do - I have seriously plaid the devil's advocate by taking WS's take as if it was anything but absurd,
and this is simple humor. While poi's boasted pride, I see only as an obstacle, for example.

In my book, it gets an - incompatibility, ignore feature is much welcome.
Especially since - if I wanted to bypass it, I'd just have to sign under a new name.

If I really INTENDED to disrupt something I do not vibe with and do not want to vibe with : something that screams
"weak and flawed, with incredible possibilities" to me.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:25 Edit Quote
quote:
Especially since - if I wanted to bypass it, I'd just have to sign under a new name.

Which people would shun as soon as your old ways kick in under that nth name.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:28 Edit Quote

@Tao, a last one :

quote:

While it is true that some members of the Asylum knew this in advance, none of those who knew went about flaming or baiting Argo Navis in attempts to somehow "trip him up" or "hunt him down". They also did not go around revealing who Argo Navis was, either.



This is a lie. What happened is exactly is that on chat, I set my name to Argo Navis.
As a result, Webshaman, without notifying me, informed DL-44, and some other people pre-emptively
in an attempt to "fullfill his mod duties".

Never was I pressed to reveal my identity : I decided to reveal it in the midst of apologies. Spontaneously.
Etc, etc. WebShaman does have HIS truth.

As anyone else : it's called perception, but it's vastly biased compared to the real chain of facts.
Likewise, many of his statements of facts here are completely influenced, and biased, compared to that same, simple, causality chain : there is a romance/poetry
factor to his tale. I do not think he believes what he says : to me, he lacks the ability to escape his default mental comfort zone and
show real empathy towards me or ANYONE who digresses from his views, so he resorts to some tactic/pattern.

Just like Jestah. A sort of simple default mode of thinking.

A mode of thinking affected by the mileage, going down the drain, and just as useless to my interests as it gets.
And as a "beast" and thus a predator : yes, I do care about my interests - so does everyone else.

...

Looking forward to an ignore feature.

---------------------------------

Poi : that was not a threat on my side - noticing I am happy to not interact with you MAY
hint at the fact I absolutely am the most sincere person.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 03:29)

----------------------------------

quote:

Even though I have been here for what ~runs off to check~ crikey five years! I have also spent large portions of that disconnected from the net. I missed some parts of the sad history you have outlined above.



Brilliant proof of concept. You did not see it, just as reisio, because it wasn't there to see. A fairytale.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 03:35)

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:31 Edit Quote

Why do you keep bringing my name into these things?

You're the one who resorts to lying or stretching the truth so people will feel pity for you. You're just pathetic.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:38 Edit Quote

It is my answer to your Apple question : it is said, and proved, that the way a potential human mate
will treat service personel is the way they treat their partner when comfortable in an interpersonal relationship.

If you consider such a joke ethically correct (the one about Apple), you consider support personnel's effort
as least than the best pre-emptively - in other words, you start your line of thinking by considering them like shit.
While the guys are paid to spend their nerves on answering insulting to angry to rarely polite customers ALL the time -
and deserve praises for the true sense of sacrifice involved.

Through several years of support, we would learn to flair customers like you from a mile away : so pompous
we would offer them the best of the best service for this very reason.

To let them know what class is about.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 03:39)

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 03:40)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:41 Edit Quote

argo navis:

quote:
Poi : that was not a threat on my side - noticing I am happy to not interact with you MAY
hint at the fact I absolutely am the most sincere person.

And the asshole of Opera PR robot boasted of pride that I am would like to take this oportunity to thank the most sincere person for not interacting with him.



(Edited by poi on 03-12-2008 03:42)

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:47 Edit Quote

Ini, you're just a lying sack of a shit. Stop it already.

For those who are shaking their heads in confusion, Ini is simply making stuff up. He knows absolutely nothing of my dealings with Apple outside of the brief post that I made about a month and a half ago. This talk of me abusing sales people and making jokes at their expense is just lies.

Hey! Maybe I should start a new thread on people using manipulation tactics in debate!

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:49 Edit Quote

Asshole, I don't remember using. I'd like to know if I did though.

But the rest : you sure can't blame me for not sincerely expressing my feelings.
Yes, I could have lived without the conflict. And I can live with it.

I could also have lived without the 1st post of mas towards me being full of free insults,
and all the rest of the bullshit. Which you could have too. But we chose not to.

And we could discuss that for hours.

...hurry on the feature.

quote:

Hey! Maybe I should start a new thread on people using manipulation tactics in debate!



You'd have an edge. Especially since you want to state what you know about my life, and tell me that I don't know about yours?
I've been around for the very same years too, minus two. No I am not making anything up : there are joke sites
about moronic and impolite customers, it's easy as hit google, you'll see you're the center of their fun stories.

You do not make me laugh though. The rest can be googled, and matched, by anyone who knows how to google :
my past belonging to b-i, their working with Philip Morris HQ, my living in the same town, etc.. easy as maps even. Clickit.

I am not making up a line of a single thing I say. So carry on, teach me more about being fake...

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 03:54)

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:58 Edit Quote

You're just full of shit Ini. Prove me wrong, lets see these sites that talk about how I specifically abused Apple employees.

Edit:

To be honest, I don't know which I'd prefer: watching Ini come up with a lame excuse on why he won't post his source or filing a law suit against Apple.

(Edited by Jestah on 03-12-2008 04:01)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 03:58 Edit Quote

Sorry, I guess I just proved you right : I am a lying total asshole.

quote:
This is not about the community : I now have something personal against poi, I tried to defuse it a few times by asking him to give me a break, he is ignoring this and being a total asshole to me - directly. I could ignore him, but the lying bit of it is so ugly.

source

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 04:17 Edit Quote

Jestah : you'd prefer getting the approval of your friends to validate your lack of personality and bring you back into comfort.
Where I am comfortable treating you as a chump without anyone else's approval.

Enjoy your new laptop btw. And the discount.
I told you you can google them easilly : http://www.clientsalacon.com is a french one, brilliant. You're there,
somewhere, the angry customer who comes questioning the reseller's competency about something so obviously wrong it hurts to smile to you.
But the guy will smile to you and will give you your discount.

Find one in english. "clients a la con" means "f* dumb customers" by the way.

Poi : okay. Not much to say - how many times did you ignore my requests for me to resort to the word and how many people came into play?
Still, I don't like the form I used, no, I am not proud of it. But it takes ten persons lining up provocative bullshit for days to get this result by me.

Fair enough, but you won't get my apologies - why would you need it anyway with the ignore feature? See my point here?
You can give lessons by examplifying, - which I should do too.

But as I said the way out is through - as long as questions flow and Jestaz are dancing, I have no qualms about answering.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 04:19)

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 04:27 Edit Quote

Ah, so the U.S. Mac Genius posted about me on a French site?

Wouldn't it have been less embarrassing to admit you're a lying sack of shit? At least then you could feel good in knowing that you told the truth for the first time since joining the Asylum.

(Edited by Jestah on 03-12-2008 04:40)

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 04:39 Edit Quote
quote:

argo navis said:

Jestah : you'd prefer getting the approval of your friends to validate your lack of personality and bring you back into comfort.
Where I am comfortable treating you as a chump without anyone else's approval.



This is rich coming from the lying sack of shit who keeps creating new threads to complain how others are being mean to him. Get help you nut job.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 04:50 Edit Quote

There's no site about a Mac guy - all I mentionned was humor about and the easy clues to a douche like you.

They are not even able to see where they fail at acknowledging the work quality delivered by any support
agent who even pay you the courtesy of SMILING - your joke about withdrawing things IMPLIES, and SAYS,
from your own mouth you have been a cunt enough to be the customer who moans firsthand.

Instead of the customers who understands someone is doing their best and an interface, a simple point of contact
with a company.

...
The "proof" sites that I mentionned are :
1) all the informations you need to acknowledge that I worked for Philip Morris, Nestel, DHL, among others. Earlier, PWC, when I was in my twenties, but it was paid nothing. www.b-i.com /
or google [Philip Morris world headquarters], same for Nestle. Oddly enough, they're ten minutes from my home.
2) An it consultant in Switzerland costs 100 chf an hour MINIMUM. [tariffes consulting Suisse]
3) A freelance only pays 30% of his income, a little less, in taxes [taxes indépendants Suisse] - notice that nowadays, this is 100$ an hour with the currency
and the slight advance of the Swiss economy over US economy.
4) EPFL sells and exports the highest end software in the world. www.epfl.ch or [alinghi ship construction]
5) The www (http and html)originated in Switzerland. Tim Berners Lee, rings any bell?
6) etc.. all the facts I quote about ME are easilly demonstrated. AND consistent with one another.

I could post the pictures of my ex girlfriends - those I have kept. I dated a model. Two sports teacher. A commercial director while I was in Prague. AMONG...
But I respect THEIR intimacy - six clear cues as to what kind of things I do and where I live should be enough to anyone INCLUDING you to understand.

And I could play you around for the night - you'd answer until you're out of fingers for you're so hell bent on proving something
to the world.

I don't like to use my fingers with you : type the above google queries. If you want references, I have no binding agreement preventing me to give them.
What do you have Jestah? The grace of a dancing monkey I can play AT WILL. What was your question already? When will you get tired of it?

Me. Now.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 05:09 Edit Quote

Ini, you're just full of shit.

- I made no joke at any Apple employee's expense.
- You've never dated a model.
- You've never dated a director.
- I don't have a clue what a sports teacher is but you never dated one. Much less two.

You're just a lying sack of shit who's desperately trying to get attention. Get help nut job.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 05:13 Edit Quote

Do you guys smell that ? Smells like pop corn to me.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 05:41 Edit Quote

Yaaaaawns. Well, check the image :
Edit TP: No draging pictures of third parties into this.


With a little bit of work, you can retrieve the source site where her role is as an interface to french customers
for the travel agency AND commercial director. A beautiful girl, truely, she teaches the Pilates method aside being a party animal,
a wonderful Salsa dancer, and..

Poi, while you're having popcorn, a quote from an email of the afforementionned girl to me :

quote:

Edit TP: Removed personal details of third party.



I am basically telling her I am in a hurry about joining her for a romantic weekend.
DHL website : http://www.dhl.cz/publish/cz/en/careers/opportunities/scp.high.html

Now, I altered her email adress but am including the email headers :

quote:
Edit TP: Removed personal details of third party.



So poi or anyone qualified can trackback the email route - and validate I recovered this message in my outlook from my former email adress.
I am daring to infringe on her confidentiality, without quoting too much, because the company who she works for has awesome flats in Prague,
a beautiful city.

You want some people to contact inside DHL about the success my migration had back then?
The model is a Swiss commercials model, not a top model. Livia is the other sports teacher : a rose applet can be seen on my website, for her birthday.

You could also google "Melina Costas" - a brilliant fantasy artists.
With some we parted in bad terms, some in good terms. I wish I could have given then more, even, I love women. I give them powerful emotions
and THEY can stand those.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 05:42)

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 05:43)

(Edited by Tyberius Prime on 03-12-2008 10:21)

(Edited by Tyberius Prime on 03-12-2008 14:57)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 05:55 Edit Quote

Wow. Looks like you reached a new all time low.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 06:02 Edit Quote

How? Complimenting women I loved and advertising their brilliant work and qualities?

If the girls are on the web, they want to be on the web : I am extremely proud of some of them regardless of the distance/time,
I see no bad in that - and I see no harm in expressing it, instead, at least it lightens up the atmosphere.

As for you reactions, I assume it's "wow he dared to poast a private email". Which is an acknoweldgement that... guess what?
It's all true. But while you still are bitching about your wounded ago and any excuse you could imagine,
those girls can happilly live a life on the internet BY CHOICE, where they deserve all the contacts - professional -
they can get.

Link between DHL and b-i, and again a compliment about the excellent collaboration :
http://www.itsmf.ch/news.asp?NewsID=30

On a site about itsm proviiders.... it support highest end professionals.
No, really, complimenting former acquaintances is that bad on your high scale of morality? You're such a lifeless chump poi,
it's a pitty to see where your anger comes from. So, that ignore button?

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 06:06)

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 06:11 Edit Quote
quote:

argo navis said:

As for you reactions, I assume it's "wow he dared to poast a private email".



It's probably closer to "wow, making up conversations with imaginary people".

It shouldn't come as any surprise that I was unable to find any mention of V.N. (Edit TP: Removed personal details of third party.) the director.

(Edited by Tyberius Prime on 03-12-2008 15:02)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 06:22 Edit Quote

You'll have them on her business card, which I can photograph for you right now as we speak, or by querying the commercial registries of czech republic under her name.
Babelfish the commercial registry entry backwards to english, and you'll see "commercial director" because she is responsible
of all the content and communication, and most of the ideas behind the rentego site.

EDIT : no need to remove her last name - she proudly displays it as the second major role in her company.
Commercial registry information :

quote:

Edit TP: Removed personal details of third party.



A poor translation of her job definition :
http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?url=http%3A%2F%2F&type=text&text=Obchodn+%26%23345%3Beditel%3A&from=che&to=eng

But you can see that the poor translator clearly meant "commercial" or "marketing" director.

And you should definitely visit Prague through them : she is a marvellous person, although a bad incident severely damaged our relationship.

Now, as much as you want to reject the truth, it's sadly here to be seen by anyone, anytime. I can't make up email headers,
and I could feed you with proofs endlessly, and rapidly. Like our photos together
- but that would be an insult to her privacy for real, not a simple statement of facts.

You could not find her job profile because? Guess what?
You cannot get even THAT right.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 06:36)

(Edited by Tyberius Prime on 03-12-2008 14:58)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 06:31 Edit Quote

argo navis: To quote your humorous self: " Can't your read ? ". I said above that it needs a CLASS attribute with the userId in the TRs.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 06:45 Edit Quote

Which implies you'd have a small idea of what CLASS is. Outside of a computer and when interacting with real world,
and truely valuable people - oh but! Those LI tags are much more valuable than fortune 500 and quality women. See why our choices differ?

If you flip the site to french, btw, you'll have what shows here on my business card : "directeur commercial" is her position definition.
Ding-ding - making this up? No, Jestah, that is what you do as a standard attitude.

quote:

It shouldn't come as any surprise that I was unable to find any mention of V.N. (Edit TP: Removed personal details of third party.) the director.



No Mac guy. Way more compelling : A girl you didn't know. A professional you can't equate and will NEVER compare to. And there she goes to you DIRECTLY, RIGHT OFF THE BAT,
discounted as an imaginary person. Yes, that IS an insult - you don't even give her the credit of substance when the legal registers of her country say so.
I bet the single thought of a woman with POWER scares the bitch in you.

But can't fix stupid - THAT is beyond my competencies.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 07:07)

(Edited by Tyberius Prime on 03-12-2008 14:59)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 07:56 Edit Quote

Eventhough I am still chewing on the baits and fully aware of it, I've stopped caring about the outcome a while ago,
but letting the turd screw the truth, and insult women - just basically that.

NO man is allowed to harm a woman in my presence - period, as much an under-douche as you are,
it is no excuse. So back at the woman I almost married - the deepest love I have ever felt, yet abandonned for several reasons.
Did I mention she was from Latin America? Owner of an MBA, top level executive, speaking two languages fluently?

Again. Way to go Jestah : being a man is about having balls even when dealing with a women who could make or break your carreer on a whim.
Being a man is about TAKING TRUE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERY FUCKING THING YOU DO AND FACING THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR CHOICES,
as I AM doing.

Pure pixels from Paris and Barcelona, our thermal spa, four stars, golf resort (Barcelo resort). My lyfestyle. My standards.
EARNED IN SWEAT, THAT IS WHY FUCKERS GET NO RESPECT RAPIDLY - I have been there. I have done that,
I have no time to empathize with potential turned to mediocrity.
Edit TP: No draging pictures of third parties into this.

(Edited by Tyberius Prime on 03-12-2008 10:21)

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 09:00 Edit Quote

Seriously. Why ? Why do you do/say all that ? do you have any idea of the level you've reached ?

I for one have sympathy for the potential turned into mediocrity. May you soon realize that you don't have to prove or compensate for anything, you can just be a cool guy doing cool stuffs.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 09:21 Edit Quote

..Says he at the end of provocation.

quote:

realize that you don't have to prove or compensate for anything,



If you imply by this that I am making this up, as yet another attempt to undermine me, make it clear. Have balls about that if nothing else.
Such a level of moronity is acceptable from some, on your behalf it's "once again" a provocation in lightweight disguise.

Since, at the level of a Jestah, it takes a photo and TAKING HIM BY THE HAND THROUGH A GOOGLE SEARCH
to leverage the discussion from the Baboon stage and transition into kindergarten, then so be it : I have NOTHING to hide, what about you?

20 years from now we'll try algebra with big J.

Now, who do you think buys your coming all innocent after all the filth you have poured on me?
Be real.

And ponder this : if what I say about my lifestlye is as true as any document I can provide, all completely authentic and
legit, then my claim at knowing exactly how to make millions and being on my way to it is? True.
If I am selling high end hardware/software, as I seem to suggest, then guess what?

I might have offered salaries extraordinary to people who would have proved true professional qualities to me INCLUDING
a true flexibility in their visions - not an emphasis on the "LI" tags because missy boss says it's best. That's where and when
you permanently tied yourself to making a regular salary, having 2.3 kids, etc..

The resume is only half of the pro : the true qualities to get to selling your stuff in your name and at the right price,
you can't develop and you've proved it beyond the shadow of a doubt to me. You need a structure to surround and validate you.
And most people here need exactly the same. It IS the willingness to compromise at no cost that is crucial to this initiative or any.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 09:31)

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 09:49 Edit Quote

I'll jump in just to share the solution I've come up with. I simply avoid any thread he starts. For me, they've proved time and again to be a) highly self-indulgent panegyrics of his own brilliance in which he invites criticism only to bitch Christlike about being criticized or b) barely intelligible, hemorrhagic catharses about his personal tribulations, which he sets out like bear traps to argue in defense of his emotionally impaired actions.

For my part, I didn't know who Argo Navis was until his behavior surfaced again, at which I began to suspect he was Ini. Nobody had to tell me. The delusional rants were signature. When someone finally confirmed his identity, I wasn't at all surprised. (Don't ask me who or when, it was just a reference I noticed, and again, it wasn't a watershed revelation for me.)


Take this discussion, for example. I haven't the faintest clue what he's going on about, which is what always happens when he's actively involved in a thread: megalomaniac blathering. I mean, my god, that last post is the most pathetic cry for validation I've ever witnessed.

Get help. Don't. I don't care. Stay in your thermal spa and steam your inadequacies there.

By the way, is it just me or does he hold a frighteningly uncanny resemblance to Kids in the Hall's Paul Bellini?

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 09:52 Edit Quote
quote:
You need a structure to surround and validate you.



Giddyup!

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 10:00 Edit Quote

Probably, but I don't mind my appearance at all - especially in that thickening suite, which makes even a gorgeous lady as her
look like Paul Bellini.

You say you have no clue, as in : the guy who tries to sell shows that NEVER take off? The guy who starts projects that end up down the drain?
And has done so ten times in his life? No private spa there, it's a resort - a hotel. Seeking attention as in : the guy who never will make it to public tv
(yet tries hard)?

Btw, it's no surprise either to see you join the usual bully swat team : in the philo forums, WS, poi, you, usually compose it.

The problem is that while you keep waxing your egos mutually over your virtual identity, you lose sense of what your existences truely are.
Say, Wes, I'll make a bet with you : I bet with the Asylum, and will paypal the Doc, one million dollars - us dollars, that I will make ten during the next five years.

But on your end of the bet, if I WIN, you come over to Switzerland on your own, and you suck my cock dry. Deal?

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 10:03 Edit Quote

argo navis: to compensate : verb. to provide a substitue, to make up for, to counterbalance.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 10:14 Edit Quote

Absolutely : I am compensating for the pain of too much money and coding fun 3d stuff by sharing intimacy whenever I want with girls of that caliber.
Or is it the burden or having no boss other than myself, and owing only to customers?
It may be the difficulties with having a beautiful flat right in the center of the town?

Or is it my recent promotion to a restricted area of a 15000 members forum which pertains to subtle commercial techniques I won't expose - but that Blaise, for one, knows?
Remember the "cube" routine?-)

That last admittance, sadly, is a proof of concept : the proof that emotionally retarded people like you are unable to draw a line regarding the past - same argo.
Other forum. Praises. Same argo. www.epfl.ch . Praises. Same argo. DHL, PM, Nestlé... praises. Asylum : bullying.

And you think I could doubt I am right for a single second?
Ah yeah... I could, as I am jealous of the tremendous successes of We... no. Of Web... neither. Of Jes... nope.
Hmmmm. Tough call.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 10:15)

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 10:33 Edit Quote

Yes, I had an idea for a TV show once, several years ago. It instead got me hired on as a writer for a book series and has subsequently been on the back burner. (Incidentally, I've made it to "public TV" on several occasions and am currently engaged in yet another national radio campaign for my latest book release.) As for the other ten projects "down the drain," you're delusional, as usual.

I wish you happiness with your $10 million and comfort in the thought that your personal attacks bother me.

I'm going to go to sleep now in my tiny apartment so I can get up and work on another book that won't earn me more than my monthly rent, then lament my lack of 25 long-term relationships with rich, international women. Oh, to code fun 3d stuff and earn praises from chocolate makers ... sigh ...

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 10:38 Edit Quote

One of my imaginary dellusions : the box. Aw, go figure, we quoted ad hominem before and I seem to be the only one to come up
with anything that looks like a fact. As for chocolate makers, tim berners lee, on google. You'll see that the http/html you're posting on
has been invented by chocolate makers. But of course, learning this would have required some schooling.

Which pretty much wraps up the ass you're being with the head of the pack : looping back to the same facts I had to demonstrate to Jestah.

Way to go. ..sigh... cattle lovers.

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 10:49 Edit Quote

Ok, I've just come back from a week's worth of vacation, and need to work,
not read up on the latest 'trouble with InI' right now.

But here are some points I want to make.

  • No posting of pictures of unconsenting parties. Pretty girls, Argo, but they've not agreeded to be your status symbols (or have removed that agreement when you seperated ways) - so stop infringing their confidentiallity.
  • I consider the killfilles proposed by poi, while technically ingenious, to be harmful to the community in general.
  • We can easily ban a username. If somebody comes back and we can't identify him again (because he behaves), we have no need to ban him again. Otherwise, banning someone is exactly five mouse clicks for
  • any
  • Mad Scientist (and visible from the ->adminlog).
  • Keep it calm - don't test my temper. That means all of you



so long,

->Tyberius Prime

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 10:59 Edit Quote
quote:
@Tao, a last one :

quote:
While it is true that some members of the Asylum knew this in advance, none of those who knew went about flaming or baiting Argo Navis in attempts to somehow "trip him up" or "hunt him down". They also did not go around revealing who Argo Navis was, either.



This is a lie. What happened is exactly is that on chat, I set my name to Argo Navis.
As a result, Webshaman, without notifying me, informed DL-44, and some other people pre-emptively
in an attempt to "fullfill his mod duties".



No, not a lie. No-one was publically informed, your "identity" was not posted publically. None of those who knew went around trying to bait you, either. In fact, you were left strictly alone.

quote:
Never was I pressed to reveal my identity : I decided to reveal it in the midst of apologies. Spontaneously.
Etc, etc. WebShaman does have HIS truth.

-snip-





I never said that you were "forced" to reveal anything. That is indeed the point. You did it, yourself.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 11:03 Edit Quote

Tyberius Prime: Any opinion about my suggestion of putting the userId in the CLASS of the TRs so that people can shun who ever they want using CSS without adding much cruft to the Asylum ?

See here and there for a few more details. Note that the script is almost ready. I just need to wrap up the cookie thing. It'll be good to go this evening if the Mad Scis decide to go ahead with this "solution".

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 11:11 Edit Quote

Can we do a Temporary ban, TP? One that is set to a certain time limit, one based on the severity of the case in question?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 12:36 Edit Quote

poi: Trouble is, it's still a killfile - and no matter how technically simple, they shatter communities.

ws: Not in code - but easily in spirit. Any mad scientist can ban him - click his name, admin in the lower left, 'promotion' in the same
corner, choose 'blocked user' or 'normal user' and hit submit...


Argo: I do not wish to see you here for a few days. Go for a long walk while I read up on this burst of activity in the last few days.
Oh, and please find somebody who can serve as your advocate - I don't wish for you to talk your own head off.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 14:12 Edit Quote

Tyberius : okay, in respect for you - much earned respect, even from an assumed asshole like me.

I kindly ask you to kick the photos. I am shivering from exhaustion, have worked the night through plus all this on my nerves,
but what happened this morning was beyond my wildest dreams - all my tariffs, everything, has been accepted with a resounding yes for the months to come
- this stuff works exponentially. Sell to one who likes the idea who sells to another... It's a chain : ignite, it starts, and when it catches, it doesn't seem
to want to stop.

I've gone as low as everyone here : I personally am sorry to you - decide whatever you want, it doesn't matter at all anymore.
But please remove the girls pictures and links, names - you are right. And thank you : they are truely wonderful persons in many regards
as well.

[FINAL EDIT - on the advocate thing]
TP, I do not want an advocate. I do not want to drag anyone who I like into my difficulties with the bunch : it is not fair.
If you want to hear my take in total politeness - because you are handling things with a distinctive wisdom, I'd like it to be a private exchange, icq in my profile -
which you can report back and treat as you please.

There will ALWAYS be someone to push my button, or try with all their might - with or without an intent,
I am starting to understand that I cannot make myself heard HERE as a consequence of events that sit in the past.
I cannot, with or without a smile, drop things like "I am going to make a fortune" - and have it make sense to anyone but me -
although it is happenning.

I wish I could phrase that for informational purposes - and help others follow a similar road minus the temper factor.

But here, something has been broken wayback and I cannot fix it. There will never be good vibing with apprehensions that thick,
and I can't sue the crowd for apprehensions they feel that deep.
[/EDIT]

(Edited by argo navis on 03-12-2008 15:06)

DL-44
Lunatic (VI) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 15:50 Edit Quote
quote:

Tyberius Prime said:

I consider the killfilles proposed by poi, while technically ingenious, to be harmful to the community in general.



I agree.
And I firmly believe that ignoring someone should be a conscious act based on the circumstances, not a button that is pressed that stops you from having to mentally filter the circumstances.

FWIW

quote:

Wes said:

a) highly self-indulgent panegyrics


And Wes gets a cookies for using such a lovely word

quote:

argo navis said:

I've gone as low as everyone here


Let's be honest here: you'ev gone much lower than most, and the only one to come close to going as low as you did so after being attacked by you when he wasn't even involved in the situation.
You've gone far lower than needed, and waaay beyond what is reasonable.

Again - do with that what you will, but it's the simple truth.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 16:05 Edit Quote
quote:
There will ALWAYS be someone to push my button, or try with all their might - with or without an intent,
I am starting to understand that I cannot make myself heard HERE as a consequence of events that sit in the past.



Yes, of course you are the victim here.



Even you can't really believe that, can you?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 17:07 Edit Quote

Webshaman : you're making me the sole agressor of 6000 persons. I don't know, sounds logical?
Likewise, you're making adults calling my mother, my girlfried, my past girlfriends, my job, bullshit - reasonable beings
and the cream of human behavior.

And DL is slapping the word honesty on top of that.

I can't believe that fairytale : I am glad you enjoy it as your reality. I REALLY am.
I just cannot wrap my head around this.

I am not making myself a victim, I am not making you anything else - what's said about you has been said wholeheartedly.
If I should speak such a sincere view anytime again, I would.

TP, I have no choice but the comp, no walk possible, I am sorry, but I can't watch this go on : for trackback, what started this very specific situation is THIS quote.

quote:

I also would like to point out that some advice can be negative even - like poi's desire to stroke a *right way* to do things as IF THERE WAS SUCH AN ABSOLUTE IDEAL.
The only "right" way, imho, is one that works as expected. Comments of that kind are both a helper, and a pain in the ass depending on how it is balanced :
I've been in IT for 10 years, poi is VERY FREQUENTLY recommending his way as the best.


In that thread : http://www.ozoneasylum.com/30033

And that is supposed to be about being arrogant.

So no, I am not a victim : as I said, I totally am on your side. Option 4. I live in Lausanne. I think you are absolutely right - I don't see
non punitive ways to handle a request like the one above. Looking back at the "All Mad Scis demoted" episode
and the "I slap a picture of my gun in one forum" rampage in another episode, I take all the blame - I AM responsible.

For daring to try to draw a limit between what I needed, and what I was receiving.

...

Being honest? This is about vengeance for many - not me. To me it is about urgency and a couple of words professed without empathy.
It will ALWAYS be about vengeance for people trained to expect the negative so much they look for it. Instinctively, simply.
So I simply see something that does not work because it's broken.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 17:18 Edit Quote
quote:
Webshaman : you're making me the sole agressor of 6000 persons. I don't know, sounds logical?





Ermmm...no. Where you came up with that idea, is beyond me.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

And for the record, this is what you posted in that thread that set things off

quote:
Are just as useful to me as how many noodles you've had for supper yesterday. Screencaps, for example, make such feedback MUCH more useful.
bottom line - giving feedback should be about "how the other guy can USE it" to be constructive. How can I use your feeling, if I don't understand it?
It's sad because with some proper phrasing, it would help a lot. (for example, since I have updated the page about 5 times and republished before you posted, I am NOT even sure which version your are talking about
- let alone understanding how you FEEL about it from this distance).

Understand also that Doc's approach is completely different (he uses px positioned layers and absolute positionning afaik, as opposed to % in my case, and relative positionning) also.
The trade is clear and simple : easier to maintain in my case, but I get to have to deal with liquid design challenges.
The similarity stops in that they both are brown elastic menus.

I also would like to point out that some advice can be negative even - like poi's desire to stroke a *right way* to do things as IF THERE WAS SUCH AN ABSOLUTE IDEAL.
The only "right" way, imho, is one that works as expected. Comments of that kind are both a helper, and a pain in the ass depending on how it is balanced :
I've been in IT for 10 years, poi is VERY FREQUENTLY recommending his way as the best.

Not only he makes me feel like he looks down on me - thank God I do not take it personal, but the above "quick sample" he whacked together is not exactly impressive,
nor is it getting the job done. It's clearly 5 miles away of a usable widget in the context where I need it.
That's why I always seem to be rejecting poi's feedback firsthand : all respect where it is due, but..
ALL I GIVE A DAMN ABOUT HERE ARE DESKTOP/LAPTOP BROWSERS, THE MAIN AND MOST RECENT ONES, AND HAVING THINGS WORK RAPIDLY SO I CAN BUILD UP THE REST.


LI has turned out to be the most obsolete thing in this case - 0 benefit for some wasted time.
And the single timer approach, while correct if I wanted to spare resources for display on a C64, is adding more constraints than it is helping SO FAR.

These are among the reasons why I didn't ask for poi's example when he offered it.


Now please, all of you who genuinely want to help me, concentrate your efforts on the site reviews where another important website for my business is getting
a lifting. And since I am done with updating the elastic part of my menu, feedback is relevant from now on - but make it clear, I don't have the time so sort
between "feelings", "impressions", "emotions", a thing for web standards, and all other things that I can't derive facts from.



Normally, typing in bold represents shouting. Not only that, but you take it to personal levels here

quote:
Not only he makes me feel like he looks down on me - thank God I do not take it personal, but the above "quick sample" he whacked together is not exactly impressive,
nor is it getting the job done. It's clearly 5 miles away of a usable widget in the context where I need it.
That's why I always seem to be rejecting poi's feedback firsthand



You see, it was not necessary to supply this information.

At all.

If the information that Poi was supplying to you was not helpful, you of course do not have to take his advice or accept his help. In fact, you do not have to react to it at all - but YOU SAY (note that I am using the blocks here to raise it out of the block of text, not to shout)

quote:
Not only he makes me feel like he looks down on me - thank God I do not take it personal



This was totally unnecessary to post. If it is true that you do not take it personally (you change this later, where you then say it is indeed personal), then why bother posting it?

It is at this point that the thread began to canter.

Poi went on to explain himself

quote:
As for looking down on you. I'm not. However, I'm certainly more direct with you : because I know you can take it, and more importantly because I know you can do better.



Then Tao responded to your post - if you note the posting times, I do not think that Tao saw Poi's response to you (from above). Seeing the time that the posts were posted, I find it unlikely that Tao saw it before he posted. Thus, Tao's post was directly to your post, Ini, and did not take Poi's post into consideration as it was posted.

Then you really go off.

quote:
A simple question, no judgement : are you on alcohol? Just to know if it's worth an extended discussion about THIS right now - I don't remember you around
at the time of my very first post. I remember I was a Mad Sci working my ass off to answer hundreds of questions on the other hand.
So how exactly have I "deceived" or "tried to deceive" you? I suggest you do two things about that :
wait until the vapors go, and open another thread where the flames you want to bring won't mix with tech talk.



I think you misunderstood Tao here - I don't think he meant you as in Ini, but as Argo Navis. Otherwise, it would not make any sense. Obviously, as Argo Navis,

quote:
You have deceived or tried to deceive all of us from your very first post at the Asylum



Tao says this later in that thread, as well

quote:
It is you argo navis/InI who came back here after causing problems DEMANDING that all your threads be deleted or else you were going to sue. Came back here with another name pretending not to know InI, in a decietful and manipulative way,
If you think everone here can just forget that, you are wrong. It would have been better to be open and truthful in the first instance.



It is clear that you still consider yourself to be Ini, not Mauro_, not Argo Navis. It is crystal clear in your remark above. Strange is, you recommend exactly that which you should have done as well as Tao. It was the ideal thing to do at that point - to stop posting, sit back, and give it a rest.

I am not clearing Tao of his side of the flames, btw. He is just as guilty in the involvement. Tao later apologized, if you remember, for his negative participation in things.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles


(Edited by WebShaman on 03-12-2008 17:50)

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 17:22 Edit Quote

argo, I've blocked your account for a couple of days, since the temptation to keep on reading and posting seems to be to much right now.

I'll need a few days to get organized - both in real life and here. Everybode, stay tuned.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 17:57 Edit Quote

argo navis:

quote:
what started this very specific situation is THIS quote.

quote:
I also would like to point out that some advice can be negative even - like poi's desire to stroke a *right way* to do things as IF THERE WAS SUCH AN ABSOLUTE IDEAL.
The only "right" way, imho, is one that works as expected. Comments of that kind are both a helper, and a pain in the ass depending on how it is balanced :
I've been in IT for 10 years, poi is VERY FREQUENTLY recommending his way as the best.

In that thread : Elastic menu


Yeah, and the feedback, advices and answers I gave you were so off topic and out of this world that you went ballistic for days. Right. For someone who'se been "in IT for 10 years", the number of things you did wrong or ignored is sub par, even for a rushed job. This is were I expect more from you. I know you can do better. You proved to be a great front-end developer in the past, but somehow it feels like you did not keep up. Surely there is a logical explanation for that : namely other priorities. But you could have the humility to recognize where you are lacking and welcome other people's experience. Although I was "okay" back in the days, I would definitely not brag about my PHP skills, and would seek advice from people who practice it day and night.



(Edited by poi on 03-12-2008 18:09)

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 19:00 Edit Quote

TP, it would seem that he created a new persona - http://www.ozoneasylum.com/30033?offset=40

Argo.

Unfortunately, I cannot use the block function (it will not let me).

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

argo
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 19:10 Edit Quote

WS : so why didn't Tao tell me "turn the caps off, you sound like an angry chump" or something COOL, simply?
That's all I care to read coming from you - enough of that.

Sorry TP, I am on "machine mode". You can see why exactly in the elastic menus thread - I am routinely reading/typing/responding to many things all the time.
Going to bed for a couple of hours though.

Poi : of the four projects I started today, ALL customers have complained about the fact that their previous webdesign teams would
emphasize compatibility for one browser over another by design choices. As long as I have known you, you've always had difficulties
making all browsers happy for a given page - in spite of your talent. Or because of the way you approach things : academic. Let me explain.

Lists for menus do not matter to them. Some even called explicitely for FRAMES. I don't care, they pay my price, and they have opennings for other systems,
more complex and pricey, to be integrated. Eventhough I'll give it a clean whirl as much as possible - and while I have been humble when acknowledging
several times I needed to get back to js and html/css.

For these alimentary projects, understand I am wearing all the caps or almost. Project leader, developer, salesman,
I wish I could have a normal night of sleep. Stakes are incredible - I mean, the budget that landed on the table today.
Gosh. That? For frames? Well, guess what? The business owners are aging persons... with bags of money, but they are
accustomed to weird concepts. And it is being accustomed to that that makes them happy.

In the end, questionning the desires of the customers is not my problem. I can entice, satisfy, and that's it.

And in real software design : the web is known to evolve in a darwinian way - ponder that 1000 times.
http and html were originaly "flawed designs", but their inherent problems were their very strength.
Robust designs were not flexible enough to adapt to a monstruous technology like the internet.

So the "flawed" survived. It still holds true today with XHTML for one, and with anything web - if developped in a massive CHUNK, it is likely
to clutter evolution. So looking ten years ahead for what will be and what may be, while academic webdesign, is BAD software design.

When faced with THIS reality and sweating my ass off on it :

quote:

would seek advice from people who practice it day and night.



Academic advice? Won't work here and now and for that.

Btw, you have someone here who practices uml, c, cpp, java, all web technologies, sales, touches the branding and graphics, translations, and defines support
processes and services according to ITIL in addition. Day and night.

In that very thread, few posts before the "criminal posting", there is something strongly and politely enticing you to stop your posts
- I say EXPLICITELY I am on a deadline and incapable of catching up as you deliver. You know I am capable of better?

Once again, I know now you're not capable of getting OUT of an "I webdesign for Opera, focus on the technologies we want to see flourish" state of mind
these days. FINE by me, but no, thanks, just not yet. So yes, I sincerely feel it is about pride or ego for you, and yes, you totally "omitted"
to read that very warning or take into any consideration - ok, you were busy answering what you assumed I would want before acknowledging for real.

Which is not a crime but was useless and uncalled for in many ways.
"off to bed"

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 19:34 Edit Quote

InI/Mauro/argo navis/argo/Alf: Do not confound "toys" and actual deliveries to customers / end users.

For toys I have no problem with [people] using whatever technology does the job and is interesting/fun to play with. Even if that means it only works in one browser. Any browser.

For actual deliveries, in my department we experiment a bit on our own to improve things in very specific areas, but we rely on proven best practices with accessibility and maintenability in mind.

What do you know exactly about my deliveries to customers / end users ? Nothing. I don't feel the need to lay out my resume every second post. Just know that you are not exactly spot on.


Good night.



(Edited by poi on 03-12-2008 19:39)

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 21:31 Edit Quote

hmm Argo ... get someone to help you ... seriously ... with all the work I mean ... if you go on like this you'll burn out ...

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 22:01 Edit Quote

and another username blocked for now.

Don't test my patience.

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-13-2008 03:06 Edit Quote

I for one have had a wonderful time reading this thread while skipping all of the InI posts. It was pretty easy, the name is the first thing you see when you visit a new post, just scroll down to the next breaking line.

As a sideways response to Wes' post about being very happy and fulfilled doing what he is doing I wanted to share a little of my own personal fulfillment. I have recently resigned from my previous employer and have switched careers to that of a Fire Fighter. It is pretty cool. I am in training right now and getting my ass kicked up ladders and through tunnels, but it is an experience I know I am never going to forget.

Makes you look at what success is in a very different way.

Don't worry about the small stuff unless that is what makes you happy. It seems like a lot of people are finding some kind of fulfillment in this thread, so keep at it. People wouldn't make all these long and time consuming posts unless they felt some kind of benefit in it.

So cool, keep at it, and don't over-use the ban stick.

Dan
Code Town | Zombie Head | How Much TP? | Feed The Blob

toast
Neurotic (0) Inmate
Newly admitted

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-13-2008 03:41 Edit Quote

@tp

quote:

So cool, keep at it, and don't over-use the ban stick.


Words of wisdom, not from me - what mage recommends is not lining up with the "punishment" you want to condemn,
simply. I recommend his way to handle it, but again, you are welcome to discussing this on ICQ and venting if you feel
my mere presence is too much for your to bear.

I said it : the way out is through, when all will be said and done, everything will lay flat on the ground instead of lurking in the closet
where it builds up towards explosion - caused by both parties involved. I am not willing to run away from this : I am no coward, never have been.

@everyone

quote:

Don't worry about the small stuff unless that is what makes you happy.


Words of wisdom. But there is THIS. And then there are the outer factors when THAT, to you, means switching from employee to employer
and involves huge efforts for some time.

@Arthurio

quote:

hmm Argo ... get someone to help you ... seriously ... with all the work I mean ... if you go on like this you'll burn out ...


Thanks. It was the point of tonight's meeting. Time management and balance are key, I lack the former skill - all this was never expected, but the credibility of www.epfl.ch set
things on fire. We're about ten persons involved now - but I am the only one who chose professional freedom, and one of the two heads. The "insider".
Just wallowing all this in at once... weee. But I am feeling good right now.

@poi

quote:

Well, guess what? The business owners are aging persons... with bags of money, but they are
accustomed to weird concepts. And it is being accustomed to that that makes them happy.


To me, my approach is about the customer being happy.
To you, the approach is about their users being ready for a "possible future" (maybe?).

I don't see either as something that can be condemned, I see validity in both approaches - I said it also, what I know from your work is what I know from your work.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-13-2008 10:48 Edit Quote

InI/Mauro/argo navis/argo/Alf/toast: In a nutshell, my, and that of many people in the web development community, approach and goals are to make customers and as many users ( include those with disabilities ) as possible happy.

toast
Obsessive-Compulsive (I) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-13-2008 15:16 Edit Quote

poi, no offense meant : I mean what I say, and nothing else this time around. As I said, if the whole world thinks something is good
and I don't see why or don't want to abide completely, something nobody ever managed to do is to force their views on me by any means.

However, you have convinced me that LI is fit for the purpose of a navigation. I am yet to be convinced about some css things -
I would much favor seeing them in real world to seeing their potential benefits in a book. The best of intention prevents nobody from being wrong.

For the rest, read TP's link on the previous page, please do - banning, insulting, (including mine, first and foremost), racism against chocolate makers, etc...
is no way to adress an issue of this kind in real world, and even more on the web, it IS avoidance. Working it through reasonably is the solution
I have called for from the start of this thread/drift.

At some point I'll answer Webshaman's last post about this all, but not right now.


I have - in full awareness - received everybody's qualms in the face, gone through the humiliations, taken the baits that were obvious,
dreaming it would help you/me get it off our chests systems. This has worked for me. What about you? What can I do to make you smile
rather than grin or giggle?

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-13-2008 23:32 Edit Quote
quote:
racism against chocolate makers



This made me laugh. Seriously, your ability to distort the simplest things into major, yet nonexistent, issues astounds me.

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 00:01 Edit Quote

Nonexistant not : there is an issue of mental constipation around here, independent of me, and I am not talking about you in particular,
I basically had nothing against you before that other day - but let's call it even and wait for TP's return, at least that's what I'll do.

Btw, ever considered the aforementionned "distortion" could be favored by the fact that english is not my primary language,
and also by the fact that there is an eagerness to :
- suggest that Arthurio may be me
- be slightly harsh to kimson in yet another suspicion she could be me

And other misconceptions that clutter any possibility of communication? I thought we were through with shooting the sh*,
but please deliver all your anger if you have some left, it's necessary before anything can be adressed constructively.

FWIW.

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 00:30 Edit Quote

The suggestions that I may have been you were rather humorous as I perceived them ...

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 00:47 Edit Quote

Some other people have made similar suggestions on a very serious note - Nemesis I think,
and a couple of others, this is a very real question in the minds of some inmates, don't take my word -
ask them. I know kimson was hurt by some things she heard for one, it sadens me a lot.

I hate to speak on her behalf, I HATE that - she admires the crowd and has always been a great asset,
all a more reason for her not to have to suffer. Please, she's close to my heart for the great personality
you can't deny she has.

Those few times were not on a humorous note. I've struggled, and really struggled, to divert
negativity from the Elastic Menu thread - some may think I cared to "whine" about Tao's intervention there
for the sake of being cuddled.

Do I look like someone who, specifically in this very thread, minds not being cuddled that much?
Do I really sound, to you Arthurio, like someone who's full of shit about his whereabouts?
Answer freely, I told you, I am out of anger supplies.

I cast a separate "Witch Hunt" thread back then in the dhtml forum because it was getting out of control
for almost nothing - yes, the original friction with poi was small, and he was right in his intent (not his words,
he admitted to being a bit blunt - as this is a tone quite common to demo sceners who cultivate elitism -
as shitty as elitism is).

Tao's reaction was, wether you care to admit it or not, threatening the integrity of that very thread -
he truely is the person who, as unusual as it seems from him, said the first explicitely offensive words
there. And bare with me as this is NOT about putting more blame on anyone.

These are not the only problems of this kind - Webshaman, for one, has been difficult to some
people lately, hell bent on "sticking to moral standards" that are his. Specifically his,
and taking deep at heart duties beyond his duties - namely, an apparent duty of "purifying the holy grail".
.....................................

The problem is not the words, the exact times, the size of threads, the problem is not post count,
size doesn't matter and none of that crap is relevant to anything :
the problem is a lot deeper than that and doesn't affect only me - unfortunately.


Part of it, a huge chunk of it, stems from the deep resentment some feel towards me - legit or not,
those very people are not forced to read, judge, threaten, me at the very first sign of anything.
Not only they DO, they carry it outside of their relationship to me.

No I am no angel and have not been these past days - but it's better to have it OUT IN THE OPEN
rather than lurking in the closet - hell it's a 1000 times healthier EVEN AT THE COST OF DANCING
A MONKEY DANCE and coming back as toast.

Wes
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist

From: Inside THE BOX
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 03:02 Edit Quote
quote:
Btw, ever considered the aforementionned "distortion" could be favored by the fact that english is not my primary language



Then perhaps you yourself should consider that before responding to other people's posts, no?

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 03:19 Edit Quote

What does it change and what is it relevant to? I mean, yes, certainly there is an effort to be made on both sides - certainly.
But the "root cause" still lies underneath this simple observation.

Regarding yourself, I was happilly in the midst of standing the 24th post about the girlfriend I don't have and those I never had,
the job I lied about, the money I don't earn, threats of physical violence, and God knows which other things I have hardly seen
anyone resort to - I may have misread and I don't care to re-read, but still, it shows the spirit of the moment and you're no angel,
but you're not the person who has performed the most spectacular outrages.

And this is not a fucking contest, pardon my french, but it sure seemed to be - can't we all do better than this?
I've not put those words in those people's mouth : they are assumedly responsible of their acts as you and me.

So maybe - just maybe, we'd be better off using those brains together to adress the underlying issues : I have resorted to some of the necessary means
to dispel those accusations out of having no alternative to stop the show, although, once again, I do not want to look back on what's been said and done.

I want to look at the CAUSE and fix it, and it still takes "two" to make a thing go right or wrong.
Maybe, maybe, pointing fingers time should come next to : SOLVING the problem for you and me.

I have things to propose to that effect - other then murdering me or rolling me in tar and feathers.

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 03:55 Edit Quote

I want to apologise for the length of this post. I would not normally write one like this but I feel I must use all these quotes in order to get to the truth of the matter.
I know it is tempting to just skip through this but I implore you to be patient and try to wade through. It means a lot to me to try to clarify what has become a tangled mess.


I'm completely sick of all this.

I see WebShaman has already tried to clarify what seems to have started all this. I now want to add to that but I'm going to start at the beginning again.

In reply to this post by argo navis:

quote:
Arthurio : don't take it bad, but comments like this..

quote:
Right now your menu just feels wrong



Are just as useful to me as how many noodles you've had for supper yesterday. Screencaps, for example, make such feedback MUCH more useful.
bottom line - giving feedback should be about "how the other guy can USE it" to be constructive. How can I use your feeling, if I don't understand it?
It's sad because with some proper phrasing, it would help a lot. (for example, since I have updated the page about 5 times and republished before you posted, I am NOT even sure which version your are talking about
- let alone understanding how you FEEL about it from this distance).

Understand also that Doc's approach is completely different (he uses px positioned layers and absolute positionning afaik, as opposed to % in my case, and relative positionning) also.
The trade is clear and simple : easier to maintain in my case, but I get to have to deal with liquid design challenges.
The similarity stops in that they both are brown elastic menus.

I also would like to point out that some advice can be negative even - like poi's desire to stroke a *right way* to do things as IF THERE WAS SUCH AN ABSOLUTE IDEAL.
The only "right" way, imho, is one that works as expected. Comments of that kind are both a helper, and a pain in the ass depending on how it is balanced :
I've been in IT for 10 years, poi is VERY FREQUENTLY recommending his way as the best.

Not only he makes me feel like he looks down on me - thank God I do not take it personal, but the above "quick sample" he whacked together is not exactly impressive,
nor is it getting the job done. It's clearly 5 miles away of a usable widget in the context where I need it.
That's why I always seem to be rejecting poi's feedback firsthand : all respect where it is due, but..
ALL I GIVE A DAMN ABOUT HERE ARE DESKTOP/LAPTOP BROWSERS, THE MAIN AND MOST RECENT ONES, AND HAVING THINGS WORK RAPIDLY SO I CAN BUILD UP THE REST.

LI has turned out to be the most obsolete thing in this case - 0 benefit for some wasted time.
And the single timer approach, while correct if I wanted to spare resources for display on a C64, is adding more constraints than it is helping SO FAR.

These are among the reasons why I didn't ask for poi's example when he offered it.


Now please, all of you who genuinely want to help me, concentrate your efforts on the site reviews where another important website for my business is getting
a lifting. And since I am done with updating the elastic part of my menu, feedback is relevant from now on - but make it clear, I don't have the time so sort
between "feelings", "impressions", "emotions", a thing for web standards, and all other things that I can't derive facts from.



I replied :

quote:
Great way to alienate people who have been trying to help you argo navis.
You come across as an arrogant self absorbed person.

You have deceived or tried to deceive all of us from your very first post at the Asylum so I think you should be the LAST person to preach about the right and wrong way to post here.
I think you should tread very carefully, remember what problems you caused here in the past? They are not forgotten.



WebShamen is correct in saying that I did not see poi's answer because poi posted just one minute before my response to you.

argo navis then responded with

quote:

""They are not forgotten.""
I don't see how this is supposed to be MY problem, for starters : it is YOUR memory that you want to hold on to.



It is your problem argo navis because you should be aware that just because you use a different name does not mean that all your previous history is magically forgotten. How can it be? I read into that post I responded to that you were being an arrogant bully. Don't forget that that was before poi's reply.

You (argo navis) continue in the same post:

quote:
I remember reporting clumsilly that an extra slash would open up doors to the back side of the Asylum - yes the way
to report it was clumsy, but I don't remember having done any actual harm in that regard. I remember other negative things,
coming from me, and ABSOLUTELY not relevant to anything you've just said.

I remember hundreds of people moronically picking up on the extra slash thing - without understanding any of the technical implications.
Wether you want to resurrect that trend or not is entirely NOT under my control,
and the above four lines are as much as you'll get from me here regarding the topic : like it? Don't like it? Don't threaten me


I have no idea what you are talking about here, none whatsoever.

Then in answer to this sentence of mine "You have deceived or tried to deceive all of us from your very first post at the Asylum"
You continue:

quote:
A simple question, no judgement : are you on alcohol? Just to know if it's worth an extended discussion about THIS right now - I don't remember you around
at the time of my very first post. I remember I was a Mad Sci working my ass off to answer hundreds of questions on the other hand.
So how exactly have I "deceived" or "tried to deceive" you? I suggest you do two things about that :
wait until the vapors go, and open another thread where the flames you want to bring won't mix with tech talk.

Then, if the tone of my post sounds slightly agressive, it's because I know poi can take criticism as well - just as he took mine, without offenses



First of all starting off a sentence with things like "don't take it bad, but " does not mean that whatever you say will not actually be taken as offensive. That is the ploy of a manipulative bully.
So you say to me "A simple question, no judgement : are you on alcohol?"
Who do you think you are? you and I and probably everyone else knows that ""A simple question, no judgement : are you on alcohol?"" is a very thinly veiled insult designed to goad the recipient, in this case me.
Then there is this from that same quote^^ "So how exactly have I "deceived" or "tried to deceive" you? I suggest you do two things about that :wait until the vapors go, and open another thread where the flames you want to bring won't mix with tech talk."

I think you know I was talking about you as "argo navis", not as "InI". Why? because I was answering argo navis's post. Because in the very first line I addressed you "argo navis"

quote:
Great way to alienate people who have been trying to help you argo navis.



Then in the last bit of that^^quote you say "wait until the vapors go, and open another thread where the flames you want to bring won't mix with tech talk.
Then, if the tone of my post sounds slightly agressive, it's because I know poi can take criticism as well - just as he took mine, without offenses


Hah, "vapors" (another dig) You saying I am bringing flames? Total nonsense! Read my post again, and it is painfully obvious from the posts that followed in the thread I started about "Things that define us" that you and poi were at odds with each other.

It was at this time that I went away from the discussion and off-line but I managed to get to a library to post this to further clarify the situation.

quote:
I'm in a library far from home so I have to make this brief, but be assured I'll get back to this when I get back home.
It is you argo navis/InI who came back here after causing problems DEMANDING that all your threads be deleted or else you were going to sue. Came back here with another name pretending not to know InI, in a decietful and manipulative way,
If you think everone here can just forget that, you are wrong. It would have been better to be open and truthful in the first instance.



By the time I returned home and so to an internet connection the thread you started called Witch hunt is on!! had more or less ended with DL-44's post and it had dropped a fair way down and completely out of the recent threads feed. I decided to do what was suggested and leave it buried.

In an attempt to clarify to everyone who wanted to know, I started the thread Things that define us
In that first post I said

quote:
In our on-line lives, like here at the Asylum, the main thing that defines us to others are our words and how we use them, at least that is how it seems to me. It did not take long for me to realise that it is so very easy to write a post to a forum, in anger, without much thought, only to regret it later. I now take great care in my posts to try not to offend or insult. I also realise that there are people who post here who are not native English speakers so some latitude is needed when reading their posts, although I have to say the standard of English here is very high, from both native and non-native speakers.

This is why, you may see me from time to time take a person to task who I believe is being a bully in some form or other, whether they realise it or not. I understand that I run the risk of misinterpreting the situation but it's a risk I'm willing to take. This world can be a cruel nasty place, I have no time for people who want to add to that misery.



"honesty and communication are key factors."

In that thread when I asked you about your honesty you agreed with the above statement. You also supplied links to where you say you apologised for lying to the inmates in general when you came here as argo navis.
This is the quote you supplied:

quote:

Okay. It certainly is time to give it away. <drum roll>
Firstly, I am sincerely sorry for the way I sneaked in : I wanted to spread a new, and natural image of myself before revealing the truth. I *do* feel bad about the comedy bit of it, and ask for apologies.
If I had landed back *under the sunlight*, it would have been *creepy vibes* allover the place, and I did not want that either.



Now understand this.
That apology was for this current deceit, pretending not to be the person who demanded all his previous posts were deleted completely. Pretended not to be the person who threatened Doc Ozone as well as anyone connected with the running of the Asylum with court action if his demands were not met. It was that pretence, that deceit, in coming here as "argo navis" that you apologised for.

You have not apologised for all the threats you made.
You have not apologised for demanding that Doc Ozone remove all traces of InI's post.
You have not apologised for putting the Doc and anyone connected with running the Asylum through all the stress of contemplating immediate court action if your demands were not met

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have more or less finished now I just want to address a couple of things in your recent post, this last one I read before starting to write this nearly two hours ago.

Arthurio wrote about my comment (" You're not argo navis are you") on what kind of person we think he/she is.
Arthurio said

quote:
The suggestions that I may have been you were rather humorous as I perceived them


Completely correct, that is exactly how I intended it to be received.

argo navis said

quote:
Tao's reaction was, wether you care to admit it or not, threatening the integrity of that very thread
he truely is the person who, as unusual as it seems from him, said the first explicitely offensive words
there. And bare with me as this is NOT about putting more blame on anyone.



So just what is it about then?
Let's look at my reaction then shall we?
My initial post:

quote:
Great way to alienate people who have been trying to help you argo navis.
You come across as an arrogant self absorbed person.

You have deceived or tried to deceive all of us from your very first post at the Asylum so I think you should be the LAST person to preach about the right and wrong way to post here.
I think you should tread very carefully, remember what problems you caused here in the past? They are not forgotten.



I do not think I was threatening the integrity of your thread with that and I also do not think that they were "explicitely offensive words"

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 04:10 Edit Quote

I also think that a person who has learned four languages as you say you have "whatever your name is now". should be extremely aware of the importance of the choice of words you use.

One more thing, I do care about the Asylum. I know what it is like for people who may visit here or even become a member, when they see such aggressive language as you use "whatever your name is now". I believe your behaviour here will be very off putting for a lot of new arrivals.

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 04:42 Edit Quote

Tao : that is NOT the problem at hands, at all. None of this, I haven't read a single line.
This is not about rethoric, this is not about reprimand, this is not about finding faults, you're late,
and you've apologized way too much.

When it was easy not to take a threatening tone firsthand : you'd be the bigger person not by cluttering this thread
with more debating, but with solutions. Do you have such a solution?

I do.
Can you apply your own advice and take it with a grain of salt for a change?
And in addition, propose concrete enhancements to the situation. THAT is what it's all about here and now.

quote:

You have deceived or tried to deceive all of us from your very first post at the Asylum



How relevant is this to anything but your feelings? In an otherwise worthy thread about some nice menu techniques everybody
still enjoys? How oblivious is it to the many ways I fostered development of the dhtml area during my mod service
AMONG GOODS I DID AT SOME POINT? Those goods include working my ass off to help you get the hang of Ubuntu AMONG THINGS.

How oblivious is it for people like Suho, so calm and balanced, to quietly suggest you post such spastic expressions
in another place of the forum? Why did you feel compelled to doing this when poi did not take offense AT FIRST
and used the same tone to me?

But MORE IMPORTANTLY, HOW DOES REHASHING THIS SOLVE THE PROBLEM AT HANDS? I am glad you have vented,
but please, let's move ON.

Short of seeing a way we could practically handle the situation towards a win-win solution, I propose you think about it all for some more time.
------------------------------------------------------

quote:

You have not apologised for all the threats you made.
You have not apologised for demanding that Doc Ozone remove all traces of InI's post.
You have not apologised for putting the Doc and anyone connected with running the Asylum through all the stress of contemplating immediate court action if your demands were not met



I have. More than once, even.

But it still is relevant to nothing, short of making you feel better - I could apologize a gazillion times,
and I think you'd still crap your straightjacket in an absurd, self fullfilling prophecy of hostility.

Correct me if I am wrong : if I would apologize (for the third time now) for those things, what would you do?

(Edited by toast on 03-14-2008 04:52)

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 05:08 Edit Quote
quote:

toast said:

Tao : that is NOT the problem at hands, at all. None of this, I haven't read a single line.


How can you comment on my post if you did not read it?

You show no respect for this place or the people in it.

quote:

Tyberius Prime said:

Argo: I do not wish to see you here for a few days. Go for a long walk while I read up on this burst of activity in the last few days.
Oh, and please find somebody who can serve as your advocate - I don't wish for you to talk your own head off.


You don't give a toss do you?


You also did not "AMONG GOODS I DID AT SOME POINT? Those goods include working my ass off to help you get the hang of Ubuntu AMONG THINGS"
Don't be pathetic....you did nothing of the sort.

I've had it with you "whatever your name is now" I have no wish to feed your ego any more. I maintain that you are a self-centred self obsessed, manipulative bully, weather you realise it or not is moot.

WebShaman said

quote:
I am not clearing Tao of his side of the flames, btw. He is just as guilty in the involvement. Tao later apologized, if you remember, for his negative participation in things.



Webshaman I think you have been put in an extremely difficult position over the past week or so. I am very disappointed with the Asylum Mad Sci's for not mediating in the Asylum as much as they used to. As far as I could see you have had these problems to deal with yourself on your own. That must have been both difficult and thankless. There is very little input now from the various forum mediators in the Big Sig, Photography, Photoshop, I could go on.

I am not apologising for anything I said I believe what I said was reasonable. The worst that could be said is that I went a little over the top. I did not flame anyone

(Edited by Tao on 03-14-2008 05:08)

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 05:10 Edit Quote
quote:

I also think that a person who has learned four languages as you say you have



This is a brilliant way to walk in the footsteps of Jestah on this one, or Hugh :
Io hablo español, I speak english obviously, je parle français couramment, parlo italiano and I could give technical advice in any of those,
to state the level at which I have taken them.

What's up with the assumptions? Instead of making me more sensitive to
a single letter of a single word, it makes me aware that in each one of those languages, two different persons will
have two different perceptions of a given sentence anyhow.

To me, it's not the words : it's the constant dwelling on the same topic of you and others that is exhausting.
But it's not completely your fault - nor is it truely mine.

It's EVERYBODY INVOLVED's fault to a degree in ANY event - there is no one sided conflict.
I'd have hoped you'd have learnt that somewhere on your lifeline - it is not YOU who I dislike, it is the uselesness of
what you contribute to this bonfire : more fuel. Bring water instead.

THREAD THAT GOT TAO STARTED WITH UBUNTU :
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/29369

Quote :

quote:
A very timely thread for me, thanks argo navis and a belated welcome too.



...

This is above me. Of all the people I have known, I am seriously stunned. Seriously. I have never seen that -case- before.
HELLOOO! I am the same helpful person who stimulated your very enthusiasm for Linux. Planet earth to Tao : FULL STOP.

*hands his supply of black pills over to Tao*

(Edited by toast on 03-14-2008 05:23)

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 05:36 Edit Quote

I only have a song, when things have drifted to such a blatantly false perception of reality, that comes to mind.
I am shaking... shaking in awe : you remind me of my recently deceased friend who was on psychedelic drugs - this is no insult,
this is making me shake as I remember the shock of learning the news. As I remember him talking to furniture
in the last days I saw him.

quote:

See the animal in it's cage that you built
Are you sure what side you're on?
Better not look him too closely in the eye
Are you sure what side of the glass you are on?
See the safety of the life you have built
Everything where it belongs
Feel the hollowness inside of your heart
And it's all
Right where it belongs

[Chorus:]
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself
Find yourself afraid to see?

What if all the world's inside of your head
Just creations of your own?
Your devils and your gods
All the living and the dead
And you really are alone
You can live in this illusion
You can choose to believe
You keep looking but you can't find the woods
While you're hiding in the trees

[Chorus:]
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you used to know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks
Would you find yourself
Find yourself afraid to see?



http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ngfgHweIvDk (superb piano).

TP. Webshaman. Tao. EVERYONE. Are YOU sure what side you're on?

...

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 05:44 Edit Quote

If you read that thread you will see that I was already contemplating Linux I was already looking into the various flavours.
You did not stimulate my interest you posted "A very timely thread "
If anything watching you make the choices tipped the balance for me as to what linux to start with.

Anyway.....Bye bye. There is no reasoning with you. I'll let you carry on without me

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 06:21 Edit Quote

In the mentionned thread - I carry on for four pages documenting ever step of my installation,
which I later started transposing to the faq.

Among things that pop up later in that thread FROM YOUR MOUTH :

quote:

Thanks Blaise, C:\ and argo navis.
I went to the Kubuntu website and ended up downloading two versions. the first being, PC (Intel x86) alternate install CD. and the second, PC (Intel x86) desktop CD. Why? Well I downloaded the "alternate" one by mistake
My machine specs are:
Abit AMD64bit KN9 Ultra MoBo

Thanks for that argo navis I need all the help I can get at the moment



You were contemplating it and thanked me many times there for what?
Okay.

Okkkkkkaaaaaaayyyyyyy. And that is supposed to represent honesty @ the once admirable Asylum?
On your way out, say hello to the pink elephants on my behalf Tao. Substance abuse is a truely dramatic issue,
never had I thought I was spot on when I made that comment in the dhtml forum.

But this explains a lot. Sadly.

I will keep posting my questions to genuine helpers in dhtml and site reviews until I find a better forum for marketing/webdesign,
I am done here.


quote:

A tip to TP before I go : you mentionned community shatterrers and that filtering solution as that.
A major way to hinder the perceived value of the Asylum is to keep that InI message :
think about it. Think about who it makes look like a fool to the world : two parties.
This community. And me in the context of this community - InI and just that. Identifiable only here :
for the rest of the web I am argo or Mauro.

Like Jestah dragging his foolish accusations below the ground, Hugh, or Tao here, and Webshaman,
you all are hindering YOUR value by trying to bait me and having me actually play along.

You'd gain a lot by removing the InI message : I hereby grant you full legal permission to restore the posts in question,
or blank them, but I strongly recommend you remove that message for your own good -
it's making you look like fools even more than it impacts me - me I obviously do not give a shit
about responding to 100 posts of insults and dancing through it all.

Do not take my word : ask any marketing pro around.
Or simply look at what's happening here - and how Tao blurted out against Webshaman among people.

toast
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Mar 2008

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 07:03 Edit Quote
quote:

See the safety of the life you have built
Everything where it belongs
Feel the hollowness inside of your heart
And it's all
Right where it belongs



This applies so incredibly well. You want to know the true root of all evil here?
The true root of all evil is the inability of most HERE, emphasis on HERE, to step out of their comfort zone.

And that is the very reason why my return makes some suffer up to making them mad and incoherent.
The problem is not for my existence to be what it is - the problem is that there is a world out of your comfort zone,
where people swear, fart, drink, have wild experiences of all sorts, making bags of money ALSO.

Tyberius Prime
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Germany
Insane since: Sep 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 10:53 Edit Quote

you'll loose a user account every time you come in this or a similar thread, argo.

And I won't unban them until you've stayed away for a couple of days.

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 12:51 Edit Quote

Tao - I understand your feelings about how sometimes things seem to be run here at the Asylum.

I want you to comptemplate something for me.

Think back on what this place represents and is built on - free thinking and free expression. The Doc had a vision when he built the place, along with his Hands-On. This website has had a long tradition in trying to uphold the spirit of what the Doc started.

It is true that we have not always been successful in doing so. That is basic human nature. The Mad Sci's who patrol the halls, for lack of a better word, really have very little power. We have more responsibility and work than anything else. It is a labor of love and respect for this website and what it stands for.

Sometimes (like in the case of Ini, but he is not the only one that has caused problems), our ways and beliefs are sorely tested. The emotional response is to lash out at that which is stomping all over our respected and beloved website, bruising feelings, egos, throwing mud, and basically just making the atmosphere one of hostility and emotionally charging it negatively. It causes a sick spot in the stomach to see it have free reign, basically because one feels a sort of helplessness to stop it.

In cases like these, it is paramount to take the long view. We Mad Sci's try to do what we can to alleviate the worst of it (posting comments aimed at de-escalation, issuing warnings when they are ignored, moving threads, locking them - and in extremely rare cases, bannings). If I allowed my emotions to control my actions, then I would make a very poor Mad Sci, indeed. I try as I can to reign them in, because I know that these things will calm down, eventually.

I know that sometimes these types of explanations are poor comfort. None-the-less, one needs to realize that the members of the Asylum are not stupid, nor are they easily bamboozled . Most do not post in threads like these, and when they do, it is a short comment if that.

Keep in mind that individuals like Ini that have burned all their bridges, and have only ashes left over, are really shunned members. They post, sure. Sometimes an identity gets banned due to the way that those posts were done, or due to the actions done under that persona (as is the case with Ini).

Note that I do not have the ability to ban, and that I do not generally support banning as a technique. I also am not a proponent of deleting posts, either. I intensely dislike locking threads, and I try to avoid it.

Ini has proven, time and again, that he is not interested in reconciliation or making true amends. He apologies when he feels it may help his position, or in order to influence some who were not around when he had some of his episodes of lashing out (or seem sympathetic to his position, in his eyes). In time, most of those that try to give Ini another chance will see the pattern that everyone else is aware of, and they will turn their back on him. It is true that he does seem to be able to find victims for his abuse, but that is the nature of the abuser/victim relationship.

He is an expert at burning his bridges. He likes to vent, and likes to try to hurt those that he can. He is intelligent and is very aware of what he is doing. He understands intrinsically what he is doing, what he posts, and knows what cause and effect is. None of his "apparent" misunderstandings are that - he is calculated and will go to any length to attempt to get his side of things through. Nothing is below him to use to get his way or side of things through. He never fails to amaze me at the depths that he will plunge to do so.

The history of Ini proves all of this without a shadow of a doubt. Recent actions and posts by him (which are exactly the same as those from before) are just more testament to this.

I don't know why Ini feels that this website is so important, that he has to continually assault it with his presence. He seems to think that his input (and I will be the first to say that he does have some knowledge that is useful, but to be blunt, it is not unique and there are others who can supply pretty much the same, without the baggage) is somehow so important, that this website desperately needs it and him. I could go into a number of reasons, yadda yadda yadda of why I think he does what he does, but to be honest, I am not his Therapist, and I am not really interested in being it, either.

That he needs professional help is obvious. That he is abusive, is also obvious. That he is incapable of identifying that he is the sole reason for the adversity in his life and to actually do something within about it, is also a lack that he has. A professional Therapist/Psychologist would probably be able to help him with whatever deep-seated problems that he has. Or not, as the case may be.

But that is beyond the scope of what we do here, on this website.

In short, I would recommend simple patience and just ignore him. I know sometimes it can be tough - but let us Mad Sci's deal with it. If you wish, you can contact me when you spot something amiss, or need to talk. My ears are normally open.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 15:03 Edit Quote

Read and understood WebShaman, thanks for taking the time.

One more lesson learned:
I often seem to make the mistake that other inmates here have the same affection for the Asylum as I do. Over the past week I have learned by IM, email, and postings that they certainly do not. It is unreasonable of me to expect that they should, I realise that now and I should have done earlier. I don't mean you WS, just some other people I have contacted.
I realise now also, what I remember Emps saying a while back is also true for me. One of the faults I have here is that I like the Asylum too much and I'm am perhaps over protective when I believe it, or an Asylumite is being wronged in some way.
I think I may follow his "Emporial" ways and have a little break.
It looks like I may have some work down in Bournemouth for a few weeks so if I do I probably wont have any internet access so I wont be posting here for the duration.
See you on the bright side.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 19:02 Edit Quote
quote:

toast said:

This is a brilliant way to walk in the footsteps of Jestah on this one, or Hugh :



Good grief, what is your fascination with me?

I'm not involved in your conversation with Tao and the only reason I had any dealings with you in the first place is because you logged on and began attacking me out of no where. For once in your life try to own up to your own actions.

(Edited by Jestah on 03-14-2008 19:06)

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-14-2008 22:44 Edit Quote

I would hope, Tao, that you instead decide to stay and keep enriching the halls of the Asylum as you normally do.

As Ini has left, you can see that although we here at the Asylum have a different way of dealing with problems, it is effective (even if it often takes longer and is more disruptive than some other solutions). Sometimes, one has to bear the strain to uphold ideals and beliefs. I think that it is worth it, to uphold that which the Asylum stands for.

I hope that you will see this as well and stay.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 03-15-2008 01:15 Edit Quote

No no, Tao, don't go! There is at least one member of this forum who loves this place, learns every day from the wisdom of the other members, and really doesn't want you to go abandoning it...

...and of course, is in the middle of his first ever Pong game with you!

Hang about, mate.

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-15-2008 15:31 Edit Quote

It would be a sad thing indeed to see you leave this place forever, Tao, but if you feel you need to take time, by all means take it. You will be missed, and I, for one, will be happy to see the day of your return.


Justice 4 Pat Richard

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-17-2008 04:15 Edit Quote

I must say that this thread makes me incredibly sad.

...and I guess that's all I can muster at the moment.


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

synax
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Cell 666
Insane since: Mar 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-31-2008 02:55 Edit Quote

It's funny to see how some things never change...and of course, by "funny" I mean "pathetic".



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