From: The Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 09-29-2008 14:27
Ok folks, as some of you may know, it is an election year in the US.
I know, I know, imagine that.
Now that the dust has settled with the pre-Primaries, we have Obama/Biden on the left (Democat for all those who do not know that the left is often associated with the Demos) and McCain/Palin on the right (Republican for all those who do not know that the right is often associated with the Reps).
Before we get started, please try to keep in mind that :
No personal attacks, please. Let us try to keep things civil here.
Try to post factual things (subjective things tend to be exactly that - subjective. Make an effort to base your position(s) in fact and document as much as possible, if you can).
Have fun!
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
I feel it important to point out that Palin and Biden don't really matter. People vote for the top of the ticket. No one cares about them.
Which is not to say that we are right in not caring. Palin is particularly troublesome, given her propensity for political ignorance & her intended placement one 72 year old heartbeat away from the Oval Office.
Biden is the Cheney of the Democratic party. He can do good or evil, it is up to Obama to strike him out one way or the other.
There are those who think that McCain is a genius for capturing a VP who would be able to take those disenfranchised Hillary Clinton voters and move them into the McCain bloc. I cannot, in any reasonable state of mind, understand how an anti-choice housewife can sway liberal feminists to the party who does not like them in the work place.
In any event, the debate on Friday night underscored how McCain's vote is always for more war. We are faced with the choice between a man who looks to the future, and one who dwells on the past.
Also, Palin is OMFG NUTS. NUTS NUTS NUTS. CRAZYGONUTS. OMFG.
None of the above, that's all I can really say at this point. Will likely vote for 3rd party (Nader is the only one on the ballot in PA), hopefully the economy has not totally tanked by then and Bush does not declare martial law using one of the emergency powers he has declared in his signing statements and exec orders. http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/24/army/index.html
And I agree totally about Palin. Her interview last week with Couric...WTF...have we really sank this far? The VP debates this Thursday should be a good laugh.
In the end, I really see no difference between the two establishment candidates. I know people are hopeful on Obama, I just don't see his interventionist foreign policy as any different than McCain's interventionist foreign policy and neither of them can fix the economic woes that are facing us without cutting back drastically. The empire must end and America must grow used to being just another country. In the long haul, if we pull through, it's for the best.
From: The Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 09-30-2008 14:19
Ram, do you really think that Nader has a chance to win?
I mean, I can understand the underlying reason(s) why you choose "none of the above" - certainly under ideal circumstances, that might also appeal to me as well (not that I would vote for Nadar, mind you).
But I am in no way certain that Nadar has a chance in hell of winning, thus any vote for him is really "wasted" (though not if it takes away from McCain IMHO )
For this election, where things are really riding on the line here (and they are, no doubt about it), I decided to vote based on what I could factually discern is the "better" pick. I should say lesser of two evils, really.
I do think that it is paramount that McCain not get in office, especially after seeing who he chose to be his VP. I cannot fathom what is going on in the minds of those who support Palin, and that was the driving reason behind this thread. I hope someone will post that supports her, so I at least can get an insight as to what the hell is going on in the minds of her supporters.
So any Palin supporters out there?
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
I tend to agree with WS about third-party votes. In a way, they are worse than not even voting, because people who don't vote don't factor into the equation at all. But people who do vote third party obviously care about the process, so they do factor into the equation. Ultimately, voting for a third-party candidate helps the major candidate you hate more--because it's not really a vote against him, like a vote for his opponent would be.
Then again, if you really and truly hate both candidates equally, then I suppose it doesn't matter. Just as long as you're OK with your vote not really mattering.
Ah, what am I talking about? Thanks to the electoral college, my vote doesn't matter either!
(Also: no, I am not a fan of Sarah Palin. I tend to share DL's view when it comes to her.)
quote:Ram, do you really think that Nader has a chance to win?
Not a chance, but I don't believe the "wasted vote" argument.
The thing is, and I know you've likely heard the counter-argument before, but if we all keep doing the same thing over and over, year after year voting in the bourgeoisie Republicrats and Demoblicans and it is not working, that is insane. It must end for any real change. If all the people who said, "Yeah, I don't really like this guy, but I am going to hold my nose and pull the lever because this other guy who has my interests in mind cannot win," would actually vote on principle, we might get somewhere. We might send a message to Washington that no, we are not happy with the lame duck congress who freely gives their powers over to the executive, we are not happy with the fiscal irresponsibility and politicization of our economic livelihood, or wars of aggression, or trampling on our liberties, or our foreign policy of interventionism that kills hundreds of thousands of innocents. Both of the major parties are responsible for these things, and both of the major candidates support these things, each to a slightly different degree, so why the hell do we keep electing them? As it stands, we do nothing but reward them for screwing us over.
Some might say that a vote for Nader (or any other 3rd party cndidate) is a vote for McCain, but if I see no real difference between the candidates on the underlying issues that truly matter IMO (foreign policy, monetary policy)... I would prefer Obama win, but voting for the lesser of 2 evils is still evil and I have done enough of that with my vote in 2004. Neither he nor McCain deserve my vote, to me that would be a waste. I'd rather abstain.
So my choice is Nader, and while I do disagree with him on many issues domestic, on the above issues he represents me closest, and for that he gets my vote unless by some chance Ron Paul gets back into it.
Edit: btw, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who supports and is crazy enough to try and defend Palin on this board me thinks.
From: The Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 09-30-2008 19:31
quote:btw, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who supports and is crazy enough to try and defend Palin on this board me thinks.
Hmmm....
Polls supposedly show 85% of "conservatives" (whatever they are supposed to be) as supporting her, and I believe we have conservatives on this board.
And it is not that I want them to defend Palin, I just want to understand why they are supporting her. Because frankly, when one looks at the facts as they are, I can't make heads or tails of it.
As for the voting for the "other party" thing - it would certainly be interesting to see an independent candidate that i felt really was worth supporting. However, I don't think that the mentality of supporting the major two parties in America is going to change, Ram. Some have changed their minds about it, obviously. But that is a small minority. The history of the US shows that it is not going to change, barring some really huge shakeup in America itself.
Perhaps this financial crisis that we now find ourselves in is the beginning of something along those lines. We will have to wait and see just how bad it really is, and whether or not the powers that be can make it look like it is fixed.
I really do not think, however, that the majority of Americans are ready to vote for a third party.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
So far there doesn't seem to be any cause for concern as Obama is ahead in the polls according to Realclearpolitics.com(Edited by Blaise on 10-02-2008 10:56)
She has been selected as the VP on one of only two major tickets.
The polls are useless and we will not know what's going to happen until it happens.
The fact that she has been given this level of legitimacy by a major party in such a major way is a *HUGE* cause for concern...
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 10-02-2008 19:18
so I've pretty much read through this entire post but I haven't read anywhere about *why* people feel that Palin is a fucking nut job, or *why* they don't want McCain in office, or *why* they like Obama and Biden.
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 10-03-2008 12:42
I'm not saying that I am wanting some creditability for Palin or anyone else. I am just saying that there has been a lot of "she's a fucking nut job" without really saying why they feel she's a fucking nut job. I can make my own conclusions as to why I don't think she is qualified to be in office.
When I say "I haven't read anywhere about *why* people feel that Palin is a fucking nut job", I mean here in this post. Not on the internet.
She claimed last night that she was going to be developing a oil solution. However, this isn't in place and it's still on the drawing board and it's a long way off from actually happening. Plus she misspoke and got the last name wrong of McKiernan.
I for one don't like the idea of McCain / Palin because we would end up being in Iraq for ever. No chance of it ever ending. They want to discredit the "timeline" approach. But, without a clear sight of where you want to go, how do you know when you get there. Spending $10B a month is not a good thing when our economy is suffering the way that it is.
I saw on McCain's site about Palin. The second thing it had to say about her..."Moose Hunter". Nice. That's a quality for a VP.
If the reasons why she has been elected for VP by the Republicans are not obvious by the last eight years then I can't give you any other hints.If you don't want to regard the polls then don't, but they are there for a reason and that website is as credible as it gets I'm afraid.
Understanding why she was selected is far different from being ok with it
How credible the polls are has nothing whatsoever to do with what is actually going to happen come election time, and Obama being ahead in the polls is very far from an assurance that this nut won't make it to the white house.
But like I said...it's not just a matter of whether she gets elected. The fact that someone of her non-existent qualifications, clear pattern of corruption, and extreme religious views can get this close, and with a whole party somehow managing to keep a straight face when they talk about her experience.....is always cause for concern.
quote: poi said:
What I see and read about McCain & Palin does not convince one bit that they are what the USA and the world need.
Now this is a tricky subject, because a lot of people believe that what the USA needs is different from what the rest of the world needs or wants. And, ultimately, that's what is going to decide this vote: what Americans, not the rest of the world, think America needs.
I'm not saying that to be snarky, I'm just saying it to be realistic. I know a lot of countries have already practically elected Obama president, but the situation within the United States (going on what I hear, since I'm not actually there) is not as cut and dried.
From: The Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 10-06-2008 09:28
quote: poi said:
I'm not concerned first hand by the US election, but it's difficult to not follow.What I see and read about McCain & Palin does not convince one bit that they are what the USA and the world need.Talking about Palin, she doesn't seem too bright : Palin Misquotes Albright: "Place In Hell Reserved For Women Who Don't Support Other Women". The video is inbelievable. I mean ... seriously ? She's running for VP ? Ouch!
Wow.
An examination of the last eight years should be enough for just about ANY person from another country to be concerned by the US election.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Sorry, that was a French-ism : "concerned" is a false friend in French where it means "affected" and does not have the "worried" conotation it has in English.
I meant that I'm not directly affected by the election. Obviously what the US does affects everyone to some degree, but there isn't much I can do to weigh on this election. I can not cast a vote, my reach of US citizen is fairly limited and no matter what I can say or point to, people seldomly reconsider their perception of the world.
I'm not what you'd call "hyper religious", nor am I a Palin supporter, but almost all of my coworkers would fall into both of those categories. About 50% of them were leaning towards voting for Obama until Palin was announced as VP candidate, so I think it worked if that was the intention.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 10-12-2008 12:39
And if this says it all about McCain and Republicans I just might have to reconsider my position on prayer. Please tell me it ain't so. If it is... I'm completely in favor of much beefed up border security. ;d http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
From: The Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 10-12-2008 13:05
Oh man, this is the best quote to describe that which I know of :
quote:Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.
It is really strange that some people do not seem to have the ability to sift fact from fiction, and are quite willing to believe anything they are spoonfed as fact, as long as it is coming from someone that they believe in.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
I'd like to interrupt this topic with someone who knows what they're actually talking about;Ron Paul, the only person that should have been nominated the Republican runner
I've never really been uncomfortable being in the minority on many of the subjects that come up around here. I guess I find it a good challenge to try to explain my views to folks that don't just disagree but simply cannot fathom why I support the things I do. So you know what's coming next.
I'm supporting McCain and I'm thrilled at his choice for VP.
I agree she's pretty inexperienced and that does give me some pause. The reason I'm not too upset about it is because I agree with her ideals as she seems like a pretty solid conservative. I think she's genuine, heart-felt, charming and intelligent. She has some serious charisma and political sense and I think she has the potential to be a very effective conservative figure in the coming years.
Here's the thing that just kills me though about anyone who supports Obama and complains about Palin's lack of experience, she's running for VP and Obama is running for president. He has no executive experience and she's actually run a state. I have much more confidence in her experience than his. So how any Democrat can complain about a lack of experience on her part can only be described as a double standard, IMO. Note that this criticism is directed toward Obama supporters and not the usual folks here who never like anyone that runs for public office.
Anyways, let me lay this out real simple to explain why McCain is the only possible choice for me. The issues I care the most about are: taxes, foreign policy, federal spending, abortion and supreme court appointments.
Taxes: I believe Obama's tax proposals are based on spreading the wealth and "fairness". A good deal of Obama's "tax cuts" are actually hand outs, that is people who don't pay taxes will actually get checks from the government. He wants to raise taxes on small businesses and corporations.
I believe McCain's tax policies are intended to support long term economic growth. He wants to cut taxes for small businesses and corporations. I think long term economic growth is by far more beneficial to all Americans than anything else we can do.
Foreign policy: Obama has said he would sit down with the president of Iran with zero to few preconditions, he said he would attack Pakistan and hastily remove troops from Iraq only to send them to Afghanistan, he wants to *unilaterally* renegotiate the NAFTA, when Russia invaded Georgia he showed an appalling lack of leadership and shifted his reaction over a couple of days.
McCain has been around the block when it comes to foreign policy and his war experience really speaks for itself. He was right on top of the Georgia crisis the moment it happened and he articulated a clear position that he stuck to. He says he'll deal strongly with the regimes in Iran and N. Korea. He supports Colombia and denounces Venezuela's leader. He supports free trade. He says he'll continue to work with Pakistan and after supporting the surge in Iraq I believe he's better suited to bring about better results in Afghanistan.
Federal spending: Obama proposes to spend more than Bush. McCain says he'll implement a spending freeze "across the board". This one is self-explanatory.
Abortion: Obama is pro-choice and McCain is pro-life. I won't go into this topic but only to say that I think it's important for the leader of this country to support life because it defines us as a nation and a people.
Supreme court appointments: This one is HUGE for me. I believe very strongly that judicial activism is precisely one of the things our founding fathers were escaping when they broke away from Great Britain. I do not believe judges should be legislating; they should be judging legislation. This explains why I have to go with McCain who says he'll appoint justices who will not legislate from the bench. Obama does not share this view.
If you take each of the issues I've mentioned above there is simply no possible way I could support Obama. I care about the long term health and prosperity of our nation and it's on that basis that I decide how to cast my vote.
I would love to hear someone explain why they're supporting the Obama ticket. Does anyone here actually support anyone or is this just a there-all-f*ing-nut-jobs fest?
Ramasax, I'm right there with you. Voting for someone who is not the best candidate for you breaks the system.
Bugimus, it's so rare to find a republican that can operate a computer, let alone make neat puzzles. I have two questions for you, if you are fielding them. What if McCain were not pro-life (i.e., were pro-choice)? Are you now or have you ever been associated with a Christian organization?
P.S., I just finished watching "W." (started on Friday, finished tonight, long story ) and I found it quite funny and well-made. More funny than sad, in case you're worried.
reisio, if McCain were pro-choice I would still be voting for him. If you look at the issues I care about then that should be pretty easy to deduce. And yes I'm a christian. Dare I ask why?
DL, I'm assuming the Palin part is what you find shocking? I can see why that would throw everyone for a loop but I can't believe you can find my position on those issues I listed anything but expected.
posted 09-29-2008 14:27
Sorry, that was a French-ism : "concerned" is a false friend in French where it means "affected" and does not have the "worried" conotation it has in English.
