Topic awaiting preservation: God? (Page 1 of 3)

Ok here is a question thats stumped me and my friends.

A sin is bad, a sin is evil. So why would God make the tree of all knowledge in the garden of Eden, enabling us to commit are first sin.

Please tell me.

Depends on who you ask

"It's all part of his big plan."

Didn't we just go through this debate...

Let's see here if I can just find it now...

[edit: Here it is:
Formal Debate for Does God Exist

Peanut Gallery 1
PG 2
PG 3
PG 4

At least I think I got the right links with the right title...

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-23-2002).]

It's really very simple, mogg. God doesn't like you. He wants you to live a painful, miserable life and to leave the way that you came - cold, wet, and alone.

He has a sense of humor.

Do you think it is unfair? Imagine living and only having one thing you are not supposed to do. Only one thing. It was the ultimate thing not to do, but still only ONE thing not to do.

Anywhoo? C.S. Lewis tries to shed some light on this in the book ?Perelandra? from his space trilogy. It really is a fascinating read. Basically a new world has been created with an ?adam? and an ?eve? who had one thing they were not allowed to do. C.S. Lewis says something to the effect of, there is one law so that there will be obedience. If there is nothing to go against there is nothing to ah, go for I guess. He also says something like, obeying someone and doing something one else wishes you to do can give you joy. The only way to find such joy is to do something where there is no reason to do it other than the person or God saying not to do it.

Errr?. Read the book. Its pretty good.


                                                           

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A sin is bad, a sin is evil. So why would God make the tree of all knowledge in the garden of Eden, enabling us to commit are first sin.

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Maybe the question should be 'Why did the 'first' people have to eat from it?'

I mean, in this sense, it isn't 'Gods' fault, now is it? And actually, he warned the first people not to...but they went and did it anyway...of course, one could say that they were 'tricked' by Satan...

This tree thing is kind of weird. I mean, say Adam and Eve did not eat it. And say all their kids did not eat it, and say no one ever ate it until right now, when I ate it. Would that mean that from this moment forward all people would suddenly percieve a false duality of nature (being naked and what-not?) I don't know about this. It's kind of like with reperations. I mean, just because my great-great-grandfather had slaves, does not mean I have to pay the great-great-grandchildren of the slaves he owned. It's not my fault how society was in the past, so why would God blame us for what Adam did, which is why I think that we have always been the same, and that we started wearing clothing to avoid the cold, and all our emotions and stuff have always existed. Their was never a time of bliss. Perhaps a time of superiour brain power, and superiour connections with nature, but a time of perfection, nope.

(BTW - My great-great-grandfather had no slaves, he was Irish)

-^^-
--::--
\___/

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Ok here is a question thats stumped me and my friends.

A sin is bad, a sin is evil. So why would God make the tree of all knowledge in the garden of Eden, enabling us to commit are first sin.

Please tell me.

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the "tree" was of the knowledge of good and evil--not "all" knowledge
trees in the bible often represent personas--in this case satan
the fruit of the tree represents idolatry--specifically in this case, fornication
i.e.--"thou shall have no god before me"
now use your imagination and common sense
and note that when eve bore a son, she bore again, another son, twins
each with a different father
adam and satan
this is only the beginning
eternity was around a long time before
use your imagination

why?
to prove that god is god and there is no other

It's a fable.

A metaphor.

An excuse you might say.

Don't let it trouble you - there are more important things to wonder about.

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now use your imagination

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I've found that's a requirement of practically every religion

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

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....and common sense

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I think that sums up practically every religion a bit better

Common sense sums up science. Granted it takes awhile to become "common" sense, but eventually it does. Religion has made no more sense now than ever. The crusifiction for instance. God sends down a version of Himself in human form (Jesus, for those not making the connection) whose sole purpose is to pay for the sins of man, whom God created with the ability (free will), opportunity (the tree), and the temptation (allowing the Devil in the Garden) to sin. So because God allows these things to happen (and subsequently punishes everyone for this first sin), Jesus, a.k.a. God, is killed on the cross to... ah hell (no pun intended) I can't think of the word I want here... anyways, to pay for the sins of man. So we just killed God. Or a piece of God maybe? But wait, Jesus now goes to Heaven, where we have God and some ghost we also call God. Now we're having some fun. Three gods now But wait, what good did having Jesus die on the cross do? None of the things that were problems before the crusifiction are cured.
In addition, there's God the Destroyer. Who can forget all the 7(?) plagues and there was that great flood (that is a large part of almost every other religion as well, including many that pre-date Christianity) where God kills quite a large number of people...

Right, common sense...

[edit: Grammer...]

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-24-2002).]

Sorry.. I wasn't clear enough

I don't practice any given religion.. I have my beliefs, and that's where I stand on that. Religion just really isn't my thing. However, I don't go around telling people not to practice, because I deserve the same respect of my beliefs that I give them.

And that's that. My apologies for the ambiguity

"There is absolutely no common sense; it is common nonsense"

-Henry David Thoreau

I dislike getting into deep stuff online. Bleh.

If this God stuff is bogus, a fairytale, I have nothing to loose. If it is true then you are friggin SCREWED. I am dead serious. No pun. Everything said here in this thread, on this forum is the opinions of people and what they believe. We really push for the individual to research and find out what he believes on his own. What am I yackin about?

Before the earth was God... the "God, Jesus, holyspirit" all kinda mushed together like eh... mashed potatoes. (holy mashed potatoes mind you) Then this one Angel said, "yo yo snoop goddie God, I wanna be a supreme power" So God kicked him outa heaven in record time and bound him to earth. Thus we have Bad against Good. I dunno if the choice of a planet was up to the devil... don?t really matter, cuz we are now screwed. The devil covered the earth in darkness. Sin. Chickenpox. Hang nails. Pop music... You name it. He owns Joo. And your pants. And you dog, and his pants (if he happens to wear pants). In fact he so owned the world that he was in the position to give all the nations to Jesus if Jesus bowed down to him. Jesus would not have any part of that though, he told the devil to go home. Back to Adam / Eve and their pets and their pets pants. God put Adam and Eve on the earth with one simple rule. One simple rule. The devil came along and got Eve to eat the thing. It came down to her choice, and the devil talked her into it. Ya should try talkin to the devil some time... it ain't easy. Actually I dunno but I bet it would not be any fun. So the two doobies ate the fruit and all hell broke loose on earth. God is totally good. The devil and his world is totally bad. Badness can not coexist with God. Now because they had eaten the fruit they would die, and everyone after would also die. The devil looked at what he had done and saw that it was "good". Blah blah blah... junk happens, a flood comes, the ecosystem is totally trashed, people start letting off cfc's and such burning holes in the ozone layer (nothing to do with the DocOzone) blah blah blah... God has enough and sends Jesus down here. To fight the devil. He ends up getting killed. The devil laughs... perfect he thinks. But not so for the red dude. Jesus had died as a sinless personage in a sinful world to cover anybodiez sins that believe in him. So after his death you could simply believe in him and you would go to heaven... not hell (where the devil wants yah *insert evil laughter here*). And for some reason there is a lot of hostility and disbelief against him. People sayin "ah das just a crutch for life" and so on... It?s the devil, who has realized that he no longer has full control on earth so he fights back against Christianity as hard as he can.

shoot it got late. Cheers.


                                                           

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If this God stuff is bogus, a fairytale, I have nothing to loose. If it is true then you are friggin SCREWED.

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Good point there, izzay.

As for it all being a crutch, maybe it is. Maybe I need a crutch, though. Hats off to all of you out there who can make it on your own, but I prefer knowing that I'm never really alone, no matter how dark the road ahead may be. If that's a crutch, so be it.

For what it's worth, I also usually dislike getting into deep stuff online, which is why I usually pop into threads like these and make stupid comments. I'm following the argument, mind you, I'm just usually not getting into it.

Cell 270

Izzy that was one of the most original posts i have seen in this thread or other god related ones.

I liked it

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If this God stuff is bogus, a fairytale, I have nothing to loose. If it is true then you are friggin SCREWED.

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I've heard this same logic a lot before but it really bugs me. I don't think that if they're really is a God that he'd fall for such a loophole like that. It just seems like such a CYA cop out. Can you imagine standing at the pearly gates waiting your turn to talk to God thinking "*WHEW*, I wasn't sure there if there was a God but I went along with the program just in case. Dude I am so friggin' lucky man!"

so...it's either bow down to god or bow down to the devil....?

Either way someone else owns my dog's pants it seems.

So I'll just let my dog run naked

*Ding, ding, ding* We have a winner.
Hands Schitzoboy a cookie.


IF there is a God, I believe that it's who we are as a person that determines the heaven/hell thing. Not whether we go to church, or actively preach about how great God is or anything. However, since God created each of us (depending on who you talk to), he created who we are and our ability to determine right from wrong, and all that. Therefore, if He would send us to hell for being "bad," it was Him that made us that way.

You can have either one or the other:
1) God creates us entirely, and thus if we are "bad/evil/etc," it was His decision to do so. He thus punishes us for the way He created us.
2) There is no God, and it is up to us (freewill) whether we are "good/bad/whatever." If there is a God, then there is no true freewill.

Which is a better person? And which one goes to heaven/hell?
The Christian who does good for fear of going to hell otherwise?
Or the Atheist who does good because it's the right thing to do?
Granted, these aren't the only possibilities, just one of the places where Christianity is backwards.

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

DL-44, thats a good point.

That's why I believe that if we do not bow down to either, we can choose to become a God ourselves, who then becomes like a Bill Gates sort of spiritual figure. Someone who does not run the show, but has much power and can do whatever in either the dark or light realm. Free to bake blueberry muffins with God, or get drunk with the devil.

Schitzoboy

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I wasn't sure there if there was a God but I went along with the program just in case. Dude I am so friggin' lucky man

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I'd say you misquoted Izzy there but it's not a quote so I can't, but... you've left out the fact that Izz is sure there's a God, he's met him. This is just something he said to someone who doesn't believe. Hope I'm not putting incorrect words in your mouth eyezaer.

DL-44

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so...it's either bow down to god or bow down to the devil

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That is indeed what it boils down to. By not choosing, you've chosen.

Lord_Fukutoku

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However, since God created each of us (depending on who you talk to), he created who we are and our ability to determine right from wrong, and all that. Therefore, if He would send us to hell for being "bad," it was Him that made us that way.

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I've read that a hundred times and it really doesn't make any sense but I can address the "He would send us to hell for being "bad" portion. Christianity does not say that you will be sent to hell for being bad. In fact it teaches that we've all been bad and fallen short of the standard of perfection. It's when we reject God's forgiveness for these shortcomings (that we have chosen to do) that we our ownselves choose hell, eternal seperation from the good Father.

I too hate these threads, but I figgered Bugs might be gettin tired

Jason

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Christianity does not say that you will be sent to hell for being bad. In fact it teaches that we've all been bad and fallen short of the standard of perfection.

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This poses the obvious question of why are we allowed to fall short of perfection? And who's standard of perfection?

Let's see if we can't find a way to tie some mathematical principles into this...
Using proof by contradiction, I will prove that God does not exist. (I hope.)

Start with a list of premises (premisi maybe?, that's why I'm using math and not english here ):
statement "A" = There is a God.
statement "B" = God is all-powerful. (Christian God here. Not real sure about some of the others.)
statement "C" = God cannot be destroyed. (Again, Christian God.)

Pr. 1 : "C"
Pr. 2 : "A" => "B" (Read A implies B)
--Truth table for Pr. 2--

"A"

God damn it. I get on the asylum to GET AWAY from discrete math, and what do I find?

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You can have either one or the other:
1) God creates us entirely, and thus if we are "bad/evil/etc," it was His decision to do so. He thus punishes us for the way He created us.
2) There is no God, and it is up to us (freewill) whether we are "good/bad/whatever." If there is a God, then there is no true freewill.

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on average--i want to say every 30 but, it's probably more lie 20, so let's say every 25 years sees a generation and, we all are apt to see (as the saying goes) to the 3rd or 4th generation but, to those who care to see--to those who dare to open their eyes there is no end to the paradox*


*see quote

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8) An all-powerful being can destroy anything. - (Def. of 'all-powerful)
9) God can create a being that can destroy God. - (7, 8, Adjunction)
10) God can be destroyed. - (9, reworded)
11) "C" - (Pr.2)
12) God can be destroyed, and, God cannot be destroyed. - (10, 11, Adjunction)
13) God does not exist. - (1, 12, Contradiction with Hyp.)

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to my way of seeing, following this reasoning 13) should read:

13) God exists AND does not exist.

*

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Free to bake blueberry muffins with God, or get drunk with the devil.

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Free to bake blueberry muffins with the devil, or get drunk with God.

*applauds izzay*

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 09-26-2002).]

Just imagine if the tree of knowledge was bearing pears instead of apples.

Then the serpent would have been pretty redundant

outcydr does bring up an interesting point...that as an all-powerful being, it should be possible for God to create a being that could destroy it. Or God could just destroy Itself. Therefore, it is possible to destroy God...

Interesting...

Why not destroy God?

<sidenote>
In Sweden there's now talk about the bible being illegal to publish due to legal issues concerning the condescending mentioning of homosexuals in the old testament.
Disrespecting anyone out of breed, religion or sexuality is a big issue in Sweden, and - according to a Professor of law - the new laws could mean that publishing the bible would be unlawful.
Quite an interesting paradox, since that would be disrespecting Christians.
Mind you, we do not have any censorship here, so you can publish anything you want at least once and then take the consequenses.
</sidenote>

JK - that's a pretty narrow view of it. I never stated that I have not chosen. I have, but not either of the stated options.

If there is such a god, and that god also holds such a narrow view, well then....fuck 'im.

I live as a good person. I see "christians" by the hundreds in my daily life that do not.

If i am to be judged because of lack of faith in a book and it's stories - when those stories have been proven to repeatedly mistranslated and their meanings twisted and abused, then this god would have nothing to do with "good" anyway.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-26-2002).]

All righty then, let's see...

Raptor - I got that using stuff from my Math Reasoning class, not discrete. Not because we aren't doing this stuff in discrete but because our teacher there treats us like we are 3rd graders. She spent a week just going over converting binary to decimal and back... so boring... I'm so far ahead in that class it's not even funny anymore. I'm teaching some of the people in there more than the prof. But it's always been like that, so what else is new... Anyways, moving on...

outcydr - OK, maybe it's a bit early in the morning, but I'm a bit of trouble figuring this one out:

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on average--i want to say every 30 but, it's probably more lie 20, so let's say every 25 years sees a generation and, we all are apt to see (as the saying goes) to the 3rd or 4th generation but, to those who care to see--to those who dare to open their eyes there is no end to the paradox*

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The way I read that, it just supports the "anti-God" side of this... Whereas your earlier post seemed to be supporting "God exists." It could be that I'm not awake enough yet, will look at it again at work.

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to my way of seeing, following this reasoning 13) should read:

13) God exists AND does not exist.

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If you can prove any contradiction, i.e. P and ~P are both true, then you can prove anything. With the statement P and ~P, you could prove Carl. - my Math Reasoning Prof.

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Therefore, once you find any contradiction, it logically follows, that every other contradiction is possible.


WS - Time to ease up on the peace-pipe me thinks. Not trying to toot my own horn here, but it was me who brought that up. Unless I missed a post up before mine...
BTW, I'm not sure it's possible to destroy something that doesn't exist. You could try and destroy the concept of God, but that would more than likely involve destroying every human.


Nimraw - As nice as that might be, I wouldn't support such an action.

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I might not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Source of the quote fails me at the moment...

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DL-44 - Rock on. And pre-congrats on your 4000th post


________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-26-2002).]

so ummm, yea.

Back to the point, Why did God make the tree of Knowledge?

I think this forum assumes that God is real, so enough of the is God real stuff.



God created the tree of knowledge so that we would eventually be advanced enough to eat the fruit off of it, but unfortunatly the Serpent tempted us and we ate it way before it was time.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 09-26-2002).]

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I think this forum assumes that God is real

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Must say I disagree with you there, but whatever floats yer boat.

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

DL, very narrow. No disrespect intended, but yes, very narrow.

Not that it's the only view I've ever held in my life, that's far from the truth. You've heard me say before though that everything I've tested regarding Christianity jives, this was after much exploration of views that didn't.

I will say that many of the issues discussed about the Christian God in this forum, many of the points of confusion are spiritually discerned. That is precisely why the points get twisted and misunderstood and there's no understanding between the 2 sides, one side is discerning with spiritual tools, the other is doing their level best to use every tool but spiritual.

I know I just opened a hole for the scientists to drive a truck though here, sadly thet's not my forté and I'll not defend it on that level. I might try but I wouldn't expect any beautifully coherent dissertations. Science is a wonderful thing, but God knows it ain't my thing =)

Jason

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Back to the point, Why did God make the tree of Knowledge?

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Well alrighty then.

I think Izzy and JKMabry have already done a great job in answering this because it is clearly directed at those who believe the bible. Since they and I do, it seems we should give it our best shot.

mogg, here's how I've come to see it. Let me rephrase your question just a bit.

"Why does God allow humans to hurt other humans, hurt themselves, and/or hurt God Himself?"

God has always existed.
God at one point desired to have relationship with other beings.
He decided to create some for this purpose.
At this point He had a couple choices:
1) Create beings that would always do the right things and never hurt anyone... ever. That is create them so that they would be *incapable* of sin. This option cannot allow free will.
2) Create beings that could freely choose sin or to not. In order for sin to have any meaning, there must be consequences for the damage it causes and those consequences cannot be the same consequences for not sinning. This option fully and completely allows for free will.

The garden story is describing to you how God chose option 2. God made it possible for us to freely choose to walk with Him or to not. That is why the tree of knowledge existed. A few of you have mentioned how important it is for others to not force you to do anything against your will. Well, that's precisely the way it is, you've got it. It's called free will.

Someone brought up the point about why Adam's sin should infect us all. Well, the story holds true even in light of that question. How many of you have never done anything wrong? Unless you are a small child, the answer is zero. The garden story describes reality in that every one of us were born innocent and at one point or another became aware of the concept of right and wrong. And every one of us at one point or another opted to see what it would be like to do wrong. Therefore, we are all guilty under the Law (OT law of Moses).

DL-44 states clearly how he lives as a good person. So even he, who totally rejects the existence of the Christian God, lives according to a concept of "good". So it doesn't matter if you are a believer or not, we all agree we have done wrong.

So here is where the misconceptions about Xian theology come in for some above. I'm telling you this, so you guys understand what we mean when we say it's not about being good or bad that determines who goes to Heaven. It's the very fact that we have *all* fallen short that we are *all* guilty under the Law and deserve it's consequences. So to answer you directly, Lord_Fukutoku, the most important thing Christ accomplished on that cross was to make it possible for *anyone* to go to Heaven. We can't go to God and say we deserve it because of our works because we don't. But we can go to God and say that because He loved us enough to die for us that we have become actual heirs to everything that is His precisely because Christ cleared the way by His work on that cross.

I think I can speak for some of the Xians here when I say that it is our desire for people to understand what we believe so that you are free to make your own decisions with regard to this faith. While it pains me to no end to hear some of the things that are said above, it is not my job to convince any of you of anything, simply to make sure the message is clear and as free from misconceptions as possible.

Do we believe there is only one way to Heaven? Yes, we do. Are we going to shove it down your throats? If God doesn't, we certainly don't have any right to.

. . : slicePuzzle

Just to clarify - there are many christians that I know who hold philosophies such as yours bugimus, and who - like you, and JK, and izzay - don't try to force their beliefs on people.

I have an endless respect for that, and for you guys.

However, the vast majority of "christians" that I have known (as well as many of those that hold some sort of historical signficance) are less christian in their actions than I am, even if they their stated beleifs are overtly so.

I believe in the christian philosophy, except for the references to it's god or his alleged words. Or in the countless evil works falsley done in their name. Or in the very unchristian institutions and political organizations founded on them.

=)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-26-2002).]

[edit: Was writing while DL posted. I agree with everything (I think, I only glanced over his post) he said.]

Very nicely stated Bugs. I've found it rather uncommon to be met with that response after some of the things I've said. Granted, I have heard it before, but it's still nice to see a "true" Christian attitude toward it.

Possible links of interest:
Has there ever been a just or perfect person?
Do Christians sin?

Taken from Skeptics Annotated Bible

Before someone jumps all over me because some of those things mentioned are taken out of context or can be interpreted a number of different ways, I know this already. Several of them, even I could "debunk." But there are still many that are spot on.

Just trying to open the door here for any non-believers who haven't stumbled across this site yet.

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-26-2002).]

~skim~
~sneak~
~skim~

psst! I get my PC back tommorow shhhhh!

Ok so far after a load of skimming and sneaking in this thread which I am sadly missing, Jason and Jamie have said the wisest things...

And I too respect bugs and jason, I don't see izzy on the religous scene much though....

But as Jamie said, it was a metaphor....

And as Maynard said, it was a metaphor for a missing moment (kudos to those who know what I am talking about )

But, it is clearly obvious that the bible is nothing but an archive of metaphors, similies, useless poetry, and a massive ammount of contradictions.

Yea, it mentions some good ways to live, but the only good ones are the ones that don't involve worship or the use of GOD.

I am just skimming through..... Do da de da do..... La la le lo la..... SHHHHHHH!


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 09-28-2002).]

Insider, That would be my fault. I don?t like to get too deep online. I just looked like I needed to represent here. Arrr... and as you can see, bugs can say what I want to say much better than I.

I would like to break down what I believe about good/bad person.
God is Perfect and Holy. (even more holy than the pear.) To be with God one has to be perfect. We, even in our goodness are still not perfect (take a look around). Therefore we can not be with God. God made one way for us to become perfect. That would be Jesus. When one accepts him, God tosses our sins aside (like a rotten peach bleh), never to be seen by him again. In Jesus the christian is perfect there for he can be with God.
To become a Christian is one of the simplest things to do... yet it seems to be the hardest for people to accept.

Lord_Fukutoku
As far as saying because God could do anything, he could make a rock so big he could not lift it... yet he can do anything...
That sure aint enough proof for me that he aint true. As little as we know about God and spiritual things, it seems a bit silly to fit God into an equation of contradiction.
That?s my take.

Schitzoboy/Jason

That?s right Jason. It is a big decision of which you decide you do believe and you are sure he is God or you don?t. I do know people who are Christians and say they "have their fire protection" but don?t act like it. They are usually the people that bring a bad name to Christians. Got to face it though, people are far from perfect, and there will be all kinds.


                                                           

Whoops! Sorry 'bout that Lord_Fukutoku...that was not intended as a slight.

And no, I don't believe in God...but it is an interesting thought...

It would mean that God (if he existed) is destructable...