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mahjqa
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: The Demented Side of the Fence
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 03-05-2002 17:46

Liluth and I went a little nuts with PS... Liluth has a thing for perpetuum mobiles (machines that work for ages without any external energy supplied) and we tried to copy one in PS & imageready... thing is, nobody has made a real PM yet, and ours doesn't even work in theory! But it was fun to work with We made it together, it's a 60-minute job... we were quite surprised we managed to do it in such a short time



Blacknight
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: INFRONT OF MY PC
Insane since: Dec 2001

posted posted 03-05-2002 17:48

whow......that looks grat..i kant say anything else to it but cooool

mahjqa
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: The Demented Side of the Fence
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 03-05-2002 17:58

Hmmm... the original idea was that it's supposed to turn the other way... I guess we kinda messed that up. this version's a little more believeable.



massacre
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: the space between us
Insane since: Dec 2001

posted posted 03-05-2002 18:13

yeah, i like the second one better

so a perpetuum mobile is possible?

Liluth
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: 1011000100
Insane since: Aug 2001

posted posted 03-05-2002 19:21

No, it isn't possible and will never be..
Energy cannot be created.. and there is always friction..

Mahjqa: the second one is nicer, indeed.. at this size I like the balls even more

~ Ex nihilo nihil fit ~

Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 03-05-2002 19:30

haha, I just stared at that thing for a few minutes, it's mesmerizing. Second versison is more believeable, but I like them both.

//ramasax

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-05-2002 20:30

Very nice movement.

One big problem with the 2nd one - you've got balls rolling uphill on the left side....

Wakkos
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Azylum's Secret Lab
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 03-05-2002 20:58

I think that it's ok, just that the balls have to start to move uphill a little bit higer.

Awesome work guys.

Liluth, incluiding the frinction, why cannot be perpeetum movement?
there's a friction here, but i don't see why stop it. Maybe material time wasting?

A sig should be here.....
But is not.

indus2002
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Maine
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 03-05-2002 21:25

That is sweet....I really like that idea and I like that animation. Nice and smooth and looks really good and I do like the second one better as well.

Peace

Arthemis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Milky Way
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 03-05-2002 22:20

liluth, what the heck does perpetual motion has to do with energy creation?
just imagine an isolated environment:

Ae = 0
As > 0
remember? rudolph clausius? basic chemistry?

the problem is that there is no *real* isolated environment (aside from our universe, in theory once again)

very cool sig ^_^

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 03-05-2002 22:55

energy cannot be created, nor destroyed - merely changed from one form to another.

the reason as to why this applies to this scenario is that, if this WERE isolated, then i would work, but it cannot - there will always be energy 'wasted' somehow - the balls move air particles, creating a tiny amount of heat, the wheel creates friction on it's axis - somehow, the energy is dissapated into its environment, slowly but surely.

nice work guys, but yes, attention needs to be paid to the left side to make it more convincing.

- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 03-05-2002 22:57

heh - almost forgot:
your next project is to do this with a more probable scenario:

a cat with some toast, buttered side up, stuck to its back.
drop one of these babies, and the two laws:
1) a cat always lands on its feet
and
2) toast always lands buttered side down
with battle with each other, resulting in the cat spinning around, just above the ground.


- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

silence
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 03-05-2002 23:38

Yeah, reitsma, reminds of the beginning of The Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett. Check it out sometime, it's a great book.

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 02:24

Liluth .. what are you talking about Energy can to be created

silence
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 03-06-2002 02:37

Laws of physics, ramm. As already stated, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can, however, change form. Smack a table with your hand. It will hurt and your hand will be a little warm. That warmth is what the kinetic energy of your hand was transformed into when it stopped.

So you can't create energy or destroy it, just manipulate its form.


RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 02:44

you can capture created Energy through the Combustion of Biomass

that is created energy just by typing I'm creating energy .. well I'm exchanging it .. but yes .. principles apply energy can not be created or destroyed

Heat is created Energy .. turning on and off your stove is created energy .. Silence

[winking]

Manipulation is the key .. you said it

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 03:07

Ramm - as stated...these things are *not* in any sense creating energy.

They are transfering energy.

*huge* difference... [wink wink...]



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-06-2002).]

warjournal
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From:
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 03:57

One of my favorites is the Hamel thing. Converts magnetic to kinetic in a pretty keen manner. Check it.


el_Grande
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The land up and over.
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 03:58

DL is right on that one.

turning on the stove uses electricity to create heat, or burns gas. The energy is in the "fuel" waiting to be used.

wink wink...

wilmonkey
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: The Jungle
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 03-06-2002 04:20

*peeks his head in*

When are you guys gonna start talking cartoons? Then I could contribute.


-Wil

moaiz
Maniac (V) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Nov 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 10:34

that animation is just amazing, very nice flow and all at 42k. Impressive.

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 15:15

we have something serious going here

Burning Waste material you can create MORE energy .. ie .. the stored energy or lost energy fro mthe material .. this itself is created energy .. yes .. energy is all around us but

DL .. I do no the different [ME specialty in HVAC] .. but I know energy can be created .. everyday our bodies waste energy .. shit our planet wastes energy .. so we must use the sun or wind or water to create new energy to replenish what was lost .. but do keep in mind .. without the sun we would have NO ENERGY

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 15:33

Right.

But...everything you keep referring to as *creating* energy is not at all. It is transferring it.

We don't use the sun or wind or anything else to create energy. We transfer the energy from the sun, or the wind, or water, etc....

Nothing is being created or destroyed, it's ebing transferred from one place to another; from one form to another.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-06-2002).]

Slime
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Massachusetts, USA
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 17:23

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=energy+cannot+created+destroyed+law+conservation

It's a well known and accepted fact that energy cannot be created, and hence perpetual motion machines are an impossibility. I think you may have a limited view of what energy really is.

"everyday our bodies waste energy" - that energy comes from the food we eat and the air we breathe. Note that if you don't eat or breathe, you won't be able to do anything energetic. (You'll be dead. =)

"without the sun we would have NO ENERGY" - well, that's not entirely true. Energy exists on planets without suns. Even if it were true though, all the energy that we get from the sun is merely being transferred from all the material that the sun is made out of. Through the process of combustion, all that fuel is being turned into light and heat. Energy is being transferred, it's not being created.


Now, to say that perpetual motion machines can't be created because energy is destroyed is also false. They can't be created because energy is *released* into the surrounding objects. In order for something to keep moving, it needs a source of energy, and that source gets depleted over time. It can't be its own energy source, because it would deplete its own energy.

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 17:24

DL .. true it is a munipulation .. but without windmills or turbines or solar panels .. this energy can never be used/transformed .. this essentially is created Energy .. I don't say new energy but created energy .. energy that can be used to power what we use in our daily lives

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 17:48

Slime .. let me revert .. without the sun everything would die .. including us

but yes .. it is essentially be transfered .. but without these creations .. windmill, Dam, Solar panels, and turbines to turn this into energy we wouldn't have any energy .. so hence .. it is "created" in the simple meaning of the word created .. we created these machines to product/create energy for us to use .. though in scientific terms it is just transfering the energy to which can be used for our needs

I'd be interested if other planets have proof of energy .. surely Jupiter has energy or atleast stored energy .. but mars? I'd half to look into this

Slime
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Massachusetts, USA
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 18:07

Again, your idea of energy isn't complete.

"without these creations .. windmill, Dam, Solar panels, and turbines to turn this into energy we wouldn't have any energy .. so hence .. it is "created" in the simple meaning of the word created" - the thing is, the energy is there before the water/wind/light goes through our contraptions. You seem to be viewing energy as movement, but you're forgetting the idea of potential energy.

If you haven't yet taken any physics classes, perhaps you should wait until you have.

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 18:30

Slime .. I do know the Law of Conservation .. and I'm out of college .. no need to say "have you taken physics yet" .. I understand the law very well .. but I think your missing my point

how would we be using our Electronics if we didn't harnest this energy? did we not have to create machines that can turn water/wind/heat into electricity?

Then again Enthalpy is something that can't be explained in just five mins .. due to its spontaneous reactions

yes in meaning we are just transfering this energy to how we need to use it but without these creations this energy we use daily can not be created or used for our purposes

Potential Energy yes .. Internal Energy .. this would be considered the materials Enthalpy .. we harnest this PE using created machines .. and all of this comes back to the sun

you see what I'm trying to say .. I've personally witnesses energy being created .. or that is MORE energy out of something small



[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 03-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 03-06-2002).]

silence
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: soon to be "the land down under"
Insane since: Jan 2001

posted posted 03-06-2002 22:24

Okay, I think you either have a concept confused or you're just arguing semantics, Ramm.

Yes, energy is created in the sense that burning a piece of wood creates heat energy that wasn't there before. But that energy doesn't just appear, it comes from the combustion of the materials.

And it isn't just the sun which supplies energy. Energy is a property of matter, thus all matter can be converted into energy, ergo E=mc^2.

Even a single gram of matter contains an enormous amount of matter, e.g. the basis of a nuclear reactor.

RammStein
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cEll 513, west wing of the ninth plain
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 23:05

[soft chuckle]

I am kind of arguing semantics .. I guess I'll chill out now .. energy can be produced which essentially means created .. no matter .. I just didn't like Liluth "Energy cannot be created" comment .. that comment is false in my opinion

I'll stop talking about it .. though it was nice to talk about .. and I wont comment about your comments

reitsma
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: the bigger bedroom
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted posted 03-06-2002 23:16

electricity can be created rammstein, not energy.
that's what dams, solar power, windmills, and all that other stuff you referred to do - create electricity from other forms of energy.

semantics my ass - instead of creating new definitions to suit our theories, lets work with what we have here - if a windmill 'creates' energy, then why does it have to harness the wind's energy to work?

and by the way, it's not Liluth's "energy cannot be created" statement, it's lavoisier's. and it's been established as a fundamental law of science.

...and i still haven't seen any logic on your part that has caused my belief in this law to waver, even slightly.

- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

[This message has been edited by reitsma (edited 03-07-2002).]

eyezaer
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: the Psychiatric Ward
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted posted 03-07-2002 04:37

That first one is tight. Dont like the second one where the balls be rollin up hill...

by they way... this thread