Topic awaiting preservation: Sniper (Page 2 of 3)

Geez will some of you guys lay off the kid? I don't know who comes off as more immature, InSiDeR or the rest of you, who shit all over him. We all get the point you don't like the kid. It has little to do with what he says and more to do with the fact that he says something. You're right Izzy, everyone is expected to think out their posts. People are also expected to excercise some thought in reading posts from others. He said the thread was laughable, and it is. No one said the situation was laughable. There's a gigantic difference between the two. If your not willing to put the thought into reading his posts that is expected, you should be the last person to criticize anyone for not putting thought into writing their posts.

To go back to the subject though, who knows what could be motivating this sniper. The last I heard, his latest victim was outside a Home Depot in a shopping center with a Michaels craft. The attacks began outside of a Michaels, so perhaps it's not entirely out of left field that this is a disgruntled former employee seeking revenge. My money would be on some middle aged white male, who was never all there in the head. The Pentagon denies there being a military-related suspect in the area, but he seems to have some sort of training.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Jestah, what gives you the idea that this guy has some sort of formal training? Could you perhaps explain why you think this?

Also, we're assuming it's one guy. Aren't there 2 suspects?

I have to disagree with you, WS, when you say that this guy (or guys) probably isn't nuts. I don't think he's outright Charles Manson crazy, but he's got to have some inner voices or some abnormal activity going on in his head in order for him to be killing all these people. As previously mentioned, I think terrorism has been ruled out, and there are no clear motives.

I think this guy is just getting off on doing what he's doing and not being caught.

[This message has been edited by synax (edited 10-15-2002).]

well, this 'sniper' can't be too off his nut, i mean, he's smart enough to not be caught (yet). don't get me wrong, obviously, this person has a wire crossed somewhree. and from what i recall, these shots haven't been made from super long distances (correct me if i'm wrong there)so that makes me think that he's probably not had any formal training...cuz i mean, anyone who hunts would be able to make those shots. and i would think that if he was a pro, he'd be more into showing off his ability to be a bajillion yards away and takin someone out.
i dunno why this person's doing this, and i think it's pointless speculating as to why, because in the end, we'll probably never know because he'll probably be shot by the cops.

OK, Lets lookat some of the points raised in this thread and try and tie 'em up.

The guy/girl (we are all talking as if it is a male) appears to be randomly choosing his targets, although he has used the same kind of location on different occaisions.

Why:

1.Ok if you want to create oanic/chaos do it somewhere where your actions will have the greatest effect, i.e. lots of people see it.
2.Most Malls, Gas Stations have easy access via roads and tend to have lots of people floating round, (more targets, easy access/getaway for gunman) also the fact that they are usually in open spaces (clearer shot on target)

Relatively small calibre weapon.

Why:

1.As we are not talking about long distances the need for a higher calibre isnt necessary. Also the larger the weapon, the bigger the bang...more chance of being spotted or caught. Taking into account the calibre size also the round itself is commonly used in sports so would not be so easy to find who has been making purchases of say a larger calibre round in gunshops etc. Also as this round is not largely used for longer distances, shooting through glass this may in fact prove to be the reason for some of his/her failiures.

Webshamen brought up some very excellent points.

1.The guys sanity.

This guy although the acts are senseless doesnt not mean he is insane (mentally ill). His actions are carefully planned by the looks of it, he appears to have looked at his target areas, his methods of concealment and escape... someone insane less balanced may not have made the same carefull planning.

2.The mental block about taking someone elses life.

This is not as easy to do as most people would think, a lot of killings are done in the spur of the moment (anger etc). When your mind can be in a temporary state of unbalance. But once you have done it for the first time the step isnt so big the next time.

Now this could give cause as to why he/she has carried on so long for the following reasons.


1.His original target was his intended victim, but as he got away with it, possibly getting some kind of thrill from it he decided to carry on.
2.He has some kind of grudge and something to prove to society/someone/government etc.

Now the tarod card thing.

If it was him that indeed left the card why...

1.Possibly so that the card would lead to him being called .....
2.One of the most succesful serial killers never to be caught was the zodiac killer, some kind of wierd tie in with tarot maybe..???
3.doesnt want to be called the "sniper" he wants something more glorious (ego feeding).

The terrorist angle.

I think this is a non starter..

why

1.terrorist organisations by nature like to claim credit for what they are doing. No such organisation has stepped forward, why not, i mean they have achieved their aims to cause terror and panic.

The professional shooter.

I personally looking at all the info and his methods and the fact that he has on majority been succesful in the shots think that this guy has had military or security training. I may be wrong, webshamen brought up an interesting point about the mental block on taking another human beings life. But if it was a hunter although he would have experience in stalking his prey and shooting, it is still a very big pschological step to move up from an an animal to a person. Being in the military and actually doing the shooting in real life, for real does have an effect on you, i know this from experience and looking at WS's posts in this thread and others i know he probably will agree with me. That is why I think this guy has done this before in the military more than likely. As for police/security i dont think someone from this kind of background ,(traditionally standing up for the higher moral ground) would undertake this action without being mentally unbalanced. (which in turn leads back to the question of his state of mind, which i have already covered.)


Also just becaus eof the calibre of weapon he is using does not forclose the fact that he has military training, heck if it was me i sure as hell wouldnt use a miiltary weapon, calibre.

why.

1.Easy to track sales of ammunition, weapons etc.
2.I bet right now all ex military personell within 100's of miles are quietly and discreetly beeing checked up on, especially those that parted from the military on less than happy grounds.
3.One final point that so far hasnt been raised that i can see, what about a "failed" trained sniper.. As in somone that undertook the training and failed it, and now has a big grudge and something to prove i.e. That he can do it. (stranger motives have been heard before)

anyway thats about the wrap as i see it.

tom: good point about the failed trained sniper...didn't think of that.

i dunno...i think i'll just turn off the tv and wait til the movie comes out so i can be suprised by the ending

I was getting gas today, for the first time since this stuff started. It was rather strange. Not really scary, but just strange. I was two gas stations over from the Sonoco where the guy got shot the other day. This one guy was pacing back and forth while his gas pumped, a lady and I both decided to sit in our cars waiting, but this other guy just stood there. He just stood there like normal; pumping his gas. I guess he figured he was not going to let some crazy sniper change his life. I guess he figured instead of letting a sniper change his life, he would let him end it. I mean there is a line between bravery and stupidity that I think this guy crossed. But anyway, everything went fine, it was just wierd. I have never felt that my life could end just like that before. It is a wierd feeling. I guess this sniper is actually doing something good. He makes me realize how much I love my wife.

Anyway, about this guy/gal/psycho demon. At this latest one at the Home Depot last night, there were tons of witnesses. Hopefully something will pan out. But there are so many of these white vans around here it is crazy. This place must be the capitol of white vans. I am trying to think of something craft to write, something that may explain all of this, but I just come up blank. I can only hope that he is crazy. If he is not, well. I don't know what to think about someone normal finding any sort of justification for murder and terror.

By the way today is my 27th birthday.

~Insert sig here~

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-15-2002).]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone look at the pattern of sniper hits on a map? All of the earliest hits are in southern Maryland; most in a tight grouping. The first is alone, slightly northeast of the big grouping (probably where he lives). He only moved into Northern Virginia to spread the killings out and try to avoid being caught.

They should look for him in Maryland. That's where he lives.

Seems kind of ironic to have a birthday and celebrate it in the heat of a killing spree. I hope you have a safe day man Happy BDay .

Ok, I am beginning to think that there are two people involved, maybe one driving, one in the back sniping. Although it may be incredibly difficult to do while in motion, maybe the driver parks, or maybe at a stop sign/red light.

Just a theory, not much evidence to prove.

Now as to why would this person be doing such a thing.... The answer is absolutely simple.

Because he can! He can wreak havoc in the capital of our country and get away with it. Pretty soon we are going to have officers patroling the streets. Untill this person gets cought, all of DC is alert to egotistical genius. And when/if we do aprehend this serial killer, we will take precautions to prevent it.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-16-2002).]

Funny you should say that, InSiDeR. I was just about to post these two articles that suggest two perps.
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,65646,00.html
"Young said as he backed his truck out of his parking spot, a white Astro van with two men inside tried to turn into his lane. He said the driver appeared very agitated to find his way blocked and instead drove by a neighboring Chinese restaurant and out of sight."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021015/ap_on_re_us/a_sniper_s_mind_3
"Eric Haney, who trained as a sniper at Fort Bragg and was a founding member of the Army's ultrasecret Delta Force, believes the shootings are the work of a pair of young men, working in tandem as military snipers are trained to do ? one as the lookout, the other the shooter. But he thinks the closest they got to a real elite sharpshooter was at a Special Operations convention."

I know the officials are downplaying the possibility that this is a foreign terrorist activity but it's not completely out of the question. It could be a sleeper cell in action.

Sleepers are very valuable, and take years (sometimes decades) to cultivate and prepare. And when they are activated, they are pretty much finished. Why would you throw away a sleeper cell on a few random killings? Granted, it is causing a panic, but I think terrorists would save their sleepers for something much larger than this (assassination of an important figure, etc.). I'm not downplaying the seriousness of the situation here, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit the terrorist MO.

And yeah, the two-perp theory does make sense. It would make it a lot easier for the shooter to get away.

Well just to let you know, I came up with that theory on my own . I didn't steal it from any articles/tv reports.

I am about to watch CNN Connie Chung here in a sec.

I just heard on the news that some eye-witnesses claimed to have seen a man of middle-eastern descent in a white van. I really hope that isn't true but it very well may be.

Just saw that, Insider. She brings on a guy who claims that, while not the core reason, Doom has *obviously* got a hand in the way this guy operates, and links it in one proverbial way or another to the Columbine Shootings.

And I'm not going to bring up a massive debate as to whether video games do or don't make a person go insane and kill everyone around them using their bare hands and/or guns, but I do have to say... why in the world would anyone still bring up Doom as the prime example of video game violence? I mean, I've heard this game bashed time and time again for it's 'ultraviolent-baby-killing-gore'... but didn't it come out, like what, 11 years ago?

But seriously, where are we (and by we, I mean the media...) gonna turn to this time, other than video games? Maralyn Manson is out of the limelight, and is obviously not able to make any of his super satanic messages be known to the pure and always-eager-to-follow masses of children with rifles. Eminem can't be blamed because the sniper didn't rape and slap his own mother. So... video games? Anyone? Video games it is...

Otay, back to our regularly scheduled thread...

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

My heart goes out to all the victims, their families, and the people of that general area who have to lead a normal life but are terrified that they will be the next victim.

I am not a criminialogist; however, I have my suspicions regarding this killer.

1. I believe there is more than one sniper. (because of the momentum)
2. I would be surprised if a white van or truck is involved. (because it was mentioned with regards to one of the earliest shootings people will naturally look for a white van when there is a shooting. White vans are about as common as dandelions so it is not surprising someone would see one.)
3. It is not middle eastern terrorism. Not flashy enough. Terrorism of that sort attacks multiple people at once. Look at the difference between what occured in Bali and what is occuring in the Washington DC area. Terrorism is used for a political or religious agenda. The killings appear to have no agenda attached to them except to kill people in a risky manner.

I hope that the murder last night was the last victim and these people are caught soon.

quote:

---

I just heard on the news that some eye-witnesses claimed to have seen a man of middle-eastern descent in a white van. I really hope that isn't true but it very well may be.

---

I hear you, InSiDeR. Eyewitnesses tend to be very unreliable, though, primarily because of the way human memory works. No matter what they may have seen at the time, it is very possible that they "remember" a Middle Eastern man because that's what they all fear deep down. In other words, the mind will insert things after the fact, and the person can't tell the difference, thinking that that's what they originally saw.

Take dreams, for example. Dreams are the mind's way of making sense of random images we experience during REM sleep. Yet if we are asked to recount later on what we saw in our sleep, we will remember the dreams (the mind's ordering of the images), rather than the images themselves.

And don't underestimate the power of suggestion. One time, when I was young (not sure why I remember this particular incident... yet another mystery), my mother and I were driving to the local grocery . I saw a crow sitting on the roof of the store and pointed it out to my mother. She said, "That's not a crow, that's just a lump of dirty snow." I looked again, and sure enough, it looked like a lump of dirty snow. Then it flew away.

I suppose this is just a long-winded way of saying that we shouldn't put too much faith in some eyewitness accounts, especially accounts that describe something as vague as nationality or descent. Of course, it could be true, but I would bet against it.

Nice post Tom. Happy B-Day GN.

Now, maybe there are two...hard to tell. One thing though. There is no way that the person(s) (corrected from guy...) is a profi. Profis don't work like this person(s). And even the profi Snipers are saying this. This person(s) is not a profi, and I don't think that the person(s) involved is a 'failed sniper'...because then they would have never seen actual 'action'. And the number of 'failed snipers' is not all that great...which would make it easier to track this person(s) down. But we will see...

The point with pre-planned killing...has been brought up. Well, that is a very hard thing to actually do. Someone needs to have that 'block' removed, to be able to do something like this. Of that, I am certain. I don't think the first victim in this 'shooting series' was the first 'kill' by this person(s). I have the feeling that the first one lies further back...but again, we will see...

As for the Van...well, either
a) The person(s) have just been lucky up till now, and are using a white van
b) The person(s) is smart, and changes vehicles. Maybe one of the shootings was done with a white van...but I don't think that this person(s) would continue to use one...would you?

As for the calibre...
Heh. Tom, I thought that maybe you'd think this one out a little better. All (well, most) real sniper type weapons use .50 cal now. But many 'sniper-type' weapons also use 7.62 mm...about the size of your average .30-30. And there is so much of that kind of ammo in the country (most hunters use this type of ammo to hunt with...), that it would be very difficult to track down. But .223 developed for use as a 'sniper bullet'...hmmm...yes, there are 'light' hunting weapons that use much the same...that's a tough call. But both are hard to track down. Both are seemingly 'normal', mainstream type of ammo. So I don't think that this is well thought out in that regards. And with a 'higher' cal., this person(s) then wouldn't have had problems with the window shot. Actually, the window shot tells us a lot about the person(s) 'expertise'. Namely, that this person(s) is not a profi, and has no training. Otherwise, such a newbie mistake would not of been committed, esp. not with .223 cal. ammo. And because of this, I do not think the person(s) involved are profis, or trained, in sniping.

That with the sound...a point, maybe...but I don't really think so. Both are loud. I'm surprised that this person(s) is not using a silencer. That is one of the reasons I don't think this person(s) is a profi.

The terrorist option -
Well, though the shootings are causing terror (and panic), it just doesn't 'feel' right. A terrorist act normally is politically motivated...and in that area, there are certainly more prominant targets...why random people? Desn't make any sense at all, if you ask me.

The sanity question -
This person(s) has to be sane...esp. if there is more than one. The entire thing speaks of a logical, thought-out process. Though it is sad, and tragic (that anyone would do this), we should not make the mistake of thinking that this person(s) is a madman, a psycho. The methods being used just don't support this. This is not the method of someone who has 'snapped', or is mentally ill. It doesn't seem to be anger, either. Strange enough to say, but it looks like someone is...'enjoying' the 'game'...i.e. that against the authorities. But, again, we will see...

To last...
I feel that this person(s) will be caught...the person(s) doesn't show any sign of stopping. Therefore, the chances increase that a mistake (a bad one) will be made, or that the authorities will 'get lucky'...either way, I'm sure they'll get this person(s). I just hope they do it soon.

Once again, a heart felt moment for all those who have suffered because of this...and the families.

My take, which could be false, but mine nonetheless.

Probably... I said PROBABLY from a different country performing terrorist activities. It would be very hard to pull out a gun, arm it (you wouldn't want it armed while the car was jostling) aim it, put it away again (because people might see it) and then drive off. Two people? One drives while the other gets the gun ready and puts it away, thus reducing the idle time wherein someone may spot a suspicious looking van with a gun muzzle pointing out of the window.

With all of the things going on right now, it would be very hard to be a United States citizen and have the guts to talk to someone else about the idea of sniping and having them as an accomplice. You never know who is going to turn you in.

To turn on your own citizens takes a little insanity, as well. Most of the sniper killers in US history had some mental defect. Thusly they got caught. This guy is thinking VERY clearly. And he can take out thirteen year olds. Not saying it's impossible for an American, but it's alot easier on the mind to kill the "enemy's" children than to kill your own.

"Some level of skill, but no expertise." Sounds like sniper training in a third world country or at a makeshift military training facility.

The tarot card left for police. It said "Dear Police, I am God." Psychologically, I think that a person feels familiar with their own law enforcement. When you go to another city, they seem a little stranger to you. If you went to another country, they would be totally alien. When you are alien to someone, and you do not know how to address them, you use politeness by default. "Dear Police" indicates to me that they have NO familiarity with our law enforcement. Also, when I first heard about the tarot card, I thought for sure he was just an egotistical maniac that has played to many video games. But WE take it in the very English context, someone making a statement that they are capable of presiding over people's fates and can't be stopped. But when you read it like it is written, "I am God." it can also mean that "I am the messenger of God". In order not to lend any assistance to the investigation, you would not want to say Ala (sp?), but still get the point across.

That's my take.

By the way, they recently caught the green river killer, Insider. That was on the discovery channel, too. Pretty good program.

What really pisses me off is when people who can't explain a tragic accident, have to make an excuse (video games) to compensate for what they cannot prove.

This has happened several times and to name a few,

Ozzy,
Doom,
Beetles,
Manson (im refering to the musician although charles did blame the beetles for his insanity),

And coming soon to maryland USA, Grand Theft Auto 1-3.

To be perfectly honest with you, the first time I played that game I thought it was horrible, the first time I made eye contact with the game was win I saw my friend take a bat to some old lady walking down the street, he was cracking up but I was gawking. That game is very wrong in several ways, I played it and I totally acknowleged that what I was doing was wrong. But its the acknowlegment that allows you to continue, if you don't acknowlege then you may endure such side effects as, not caring about death, making a pistol out of your index finger and aim it at your friends while joking around, or, coming soon again to maryland, becoming a sniper.

I think video games have nothing to do with this.

I just noticed something.

This is one man [alegedly(or 2 men)]. One anonymous man, has brought the attention of 400 police detectives, 200 officers (cops), 400 FBI agents, the president, and the pentagon, and I suppose you could say the entire US government has their attention on this one man.

Think of that power. Now this isn't like Bin Laden, this person isn't (well at least it hasn't been proven yet) a religous fundamentalist posing terror in to make a negative statement towards out government. No no, this is something else.

Thats power.

He has power, but it is power that can be taken away from him.

Assuming this is a home-grown serial killer(s). Often times these people have been terribly abused as children. One of the feelings they have in their formative years is a sense of powerlessness. So it is not too difficult to see how the kind of power you describe, InSiDeR, can be a huge turn on for someone with that background. Having control over another person's life is almost an ultimate position of power.

But I'm still wondering about who the perps really are. I have heard that in some terrorist attacks in other countries, snipers have been utilized. Although I agree it is most likely a home-grown criminal.

Video games. I was joking. Most people who say that are. They are trying to downgrade acts to stupidity. Like when your friend says something stupid and you tell him he watches too much television. However, I think video games CAN help someone get into the psychy of someone who does not think about what he is really doing. Ever put it on cheat, or find that in some video games where there are "civilians", for some reason, GENERALLY speaking, you tend to do crueler things to characters than you would EVER think of doing in real life. It's a power trip. Alien Vs. Predator, for instance. Use my zoom and my little spear gun. Find an alien that doesn't know I'm there. I COULD shoot the alien in the head, but I'd like to see him crawl. As an alien, those scientists that have no weapons?... walk right up to them and while they're having a panic attack, slowly center the screen and bite their heads off!! Killin'! I want to KILL!!

**Trying to catch breath**

See what I mean?

No, but I'm listening.

bugs: but it seems that in those cases of terrorist snipers, there are political statements behind the kilings - or assassinations. personally, i've never heard of terrorists taking pot shots at regular citizens.
This sounds much more like one of the US's home grown killers.

An interesting thought crossed my mind last night. Seeing as how the sniper's attacks are so 'random', doesn't it kinda look like target practice? Perhaps he's trying to get everyone to flip out (successfully, I might add) and believing that he's merely out there to pick off random people in random places... so a real strike at someone in a position of power could be done.

But that raises the question: why risk your operation practicing on people on the streets? Surely that's a real dumb move to make, as it'll surely raise a stink in whatever reigon/country you're doing it in, and there's a good chance you'll be caught before you actually pull out the big bang, so to speak.

I don't know, I guess I just think he's trying to get everyone to think it's completely random so he can start hitting more 'important' targets later on. *shrugs* Maybe it's just me.

I apologize if I sound crass or morbid, as my thoughts and prayers go out to those who have been struck, the survivors of, and those who are living an alternate way of life due to the sniper attacks...

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

Not at all, it's perfectly logical that he is hitting random people so that he can later take out a target such as maybe our president. He just may be trying to pass off the feeling of random victims.

You know, after watching a bit more on last night's shooting, and finding that he was only about 30 yards from his target, and probably fired from the vehicle itself, well... that's not very sniper-like, is it?

One question - are all of the 'targets' white? I can't seem to find any references to the race of the victims...anybody know?

No.
I don't know all the victims' races, but at least one was black and at least one was of Indian or Pakistani descent.

No, the targets are all different backgrounds and races.


Go to this site, then click on 'Interactive: Sniper Attachs' - which is in the box with the Special Report heading. This has a picture of each victim.
Shooting Victims

See #4, 5, and 7.

~Insert sig here~

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-17-2002).]

Sniper Problem Solved

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-17-2002).]

ROFL at GN: Thats pretty disturbingly funny...but more disturbing than funny...

Morbid humor like that can be a healthy way to get through stressful situations.

I'd have to agree with Bugs, sometimes it is. More often than not though, it's met with criticism.

On another note, whats with the odd double posts?

Don't know.

doubles are now deleted.

mysterious echoes in this hall, yes?
mysterious echoes in this hall, yes?

weird
weird

Makes sense, I accidently double posted in the Funniest Joke in the Asylum topic, and a few seconds later, it was gone. At the time, I figured some watchful Mad Scientist just so happened to be checking it as I doubled. Heh.

Interesting, for a while there I thought I was seeing double!!

Hey GN, link doesn't work above... Did they take it down already?