Topic awaiting preservation: Sniper

What's up with this guy in Virginia and Maryland killing everyone? I live about 2 miles away from the gas station last night in Manassas, and I'm shitting bricks. It's crazy here. All schools are locked down - no one can go outside, and since what happened this morning, all the roads in the area are closed down and the police are searching every singe white van. It's chaos. People run to their cars after work, Kids run from the school bus to their school. I hope they catch this guy pretty soon, I'm having crazy dreams. The whole drive home from work, I'm just hoping that the guy does not start to pick off people in rush hr.

What do you think this guy is trying to prove?

-^^-
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quote:

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What do you think this guy is trying to prove?

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Perhaps that the only thing that keeps this from being a common occurance are people's own sense of morality and their fear of getting caught. If their morality says it's cool and they either get over their fear of getting caught or they don't care or they intend to get caught, then things like this happen. It's also a power trip for the disaffected.

"the most incredible feats are often accomplished by
those who have had the most incredible challenges"

What a crazy crazy person this must be... I'm guessing the fall fashions in your area are going to start running towards Kevlar?

Please keep your head down!

Is it possible that everyone involved is connected? Not to each other necessarily but to other people that may have been there. Trying to scare someone from a 'rival faction' by hitting people near them and their children kind of thing. Who knows? I know I wouldn't fall out of my chair if I found out that they were all connected in some way. I can understand the fear though. Hope it ends soon. It almost seems like a professional that's practicing or something. I mean a scoped rifle isn't exactly a weapon of indiscriminate killing. You'd want a machine gun for that. Most of these deaths have been single shot victims(if I remember correctly). Sounds like a pro to me. Someone who has honed, or is honing, their skill with a rifle for accurate single shot kills.

GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

And who said life was boring? Buildings falling down, biological wars on the horizon, snipers running around poppin' people...

[This message has been edited by njuice42 (edited 10-12-2002).]

It's a game to the killer. People like that live in a fantasy world and they do these awful acts to some kind of inner story. Ultimately it is about power. They can't control their real life so they create a fantasy where they have the power over life and death. To add reality to their fantasy, they kill people, then take greater risks to show their power is above the authorities.

It is my sincerest hope that the killer is caught soon and you can resume your life, Gilbert Nolander.

I tend to agree with some of the cops who think this guy is just a whack-job with mommy issues.

bodhi23 -

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I'm guessing the fall fashions in your area are going to start running towards Kevlar?

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I really wish I'd thought to say that, lmfao... OK, maybe my sense of humor is a bit twisted... shrugs

GD -

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It almost seems like a professional that's practicing or something.

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Has anyone here ever seen the movie "Angel's Dance" with Jim Belushi and Sheryl Lee?
Review here.
It just seems eerily familiar to what's going on, except with a bit of a humorous aspect added...

moth -

quote:

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They can't control their real life so they create a fantasy where they have the power over life and death.

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Actually I'd disagree with you there. I think it's more of a power trip. The adrenaline rush. Some people sky-dive or BASE jump, others climb mountains, or some go hunting. I think this guy falls into the catagory of hunting. "Normal" people hunt deer, or birds, or whatever. Once you're done for the day, you go back and resume "normal" activities that don't give any type of rush. What this guy is doing just gives that rush 24/7. But like almost anything that gives any kind of rush or a high or whatever you call it, after awhile it starts to wear off, and it takes more and more to get the same high, and when that happens you start to relax and not pay as much attention to what you're doing and you tend to slip up and make accidents, which usually means you get caught (if what you were doing is illegal).


But yea, that's my 2 cents. I see it as being 1 of 3 things:
1. A professional who is practicing (wouldn't really surprise me)
2. Adrenaline junkie (my guess is this)
3. There's some common relation between all the victims (I doubt it)

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

A professional wouldn't parctice on real people. They'd be smarter and well, more professional than that.

If there was any connection between the victims then is should have come out by now. I mean, 10 people, that should be more than enough to join the dots -- if there are any.

I don't think this person is sane. It's obviously pre-meditated as it's been what? One victim per day. I'd say he'd been thinking about this or planning this for some time.

Motive???

if Cause = Terror then motive = ???

I don't know... The type of crime just doesn't fit the bill so I'm betting this person is seriously fucked in the head. Hell, you'd have to be mental to cap someone with a sniper rifle. Seeing it so close up through the scope and all. A scene like that should be horrofic enough to scare some sence into any relatively sane person but day after day, with no cause beyond localised terror. Yeah, sounds like a loony to me.

The strange thing is that sniping isnt an easy thing to do, it takes a lot of training/practice.. Many factors have to be taken into account such as wind speed direction etc.. This guy/girl knows how to shoot but i wouldnt say he is a professional/expert as some of his/her victims have survived...

Sniping is a hell of a lot different than just pulling a gun and shooting someone, its a very premeditated act, you have to get into a position where you can see your target and also make good your escape after the shot.. Then you spend a long time getting the shot ready. now this guy seems to be randomly selecting his targets, which means he is actually set up for the shot for quite a while before he picks who he is gonna shoot.

i think in the end this guy will probably turn out to have some military experience or security experience...

He has got away with it too long not to have recieved training in this at some point.

whatever his motives are we may never know unless he is caught alive (i think unlikely), personally speaking i am thankful that the gun laws in the UK have now seriously reduced the number of incidents lke this....
anyway he is one sick human being no matter what his motives are

^ What tom said... Except about the gun laws part... But, since I have no idea what the gun laws are in the UK, I won't go off on that yet... Would someone mind expanding on the gun laws there? Are they like what the gun control freaks here want, i.e. guns to be completely illegal? I know there is only a small portion of them who are that far insane, but they are out there. Or are the laws like, every citizen must carry a firearm on them at all times?



________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

funfact: in most of europe it's illegal to carry any firearm unless you're a cop or a soldier.
There are exceptions (like shooting clubs (?)) but no civillian is allowed to carry any firearms. I don't know how it is in the rest of Europe, but in Holland there are no gunshops anywhere. Nobody with a criminal record or under 18 is allowed to buy a gun, and even then the rules are quite strict.

That being said, guns don't kill people, bullets do. ;p

My point being, drugs are illegal, yes? And what a lovely job those laws are doing.

Luckily I don't feel like being a sarcastic ass for very long, so I'll leave it at that and go watch some football... Ah, Sunday, the one day to be completely lethargic and no one cares...

I can't help but laugh at this thread.

Insider what the fuck is wrong with you, if you simply havent got anything to contribute to a thread besides some stupid assinine comment (probably to boot ya post count) why dont you just keep your big mouth fucking shut, i am so pissed off with the crap that you come out with.

a discussion into what makes a maniac tick, you find funny, yup you are one sick juvenile puppy, how about taking a long break and come back when ya grow up... How many times do you have to be told THINK before you POST and if you havent got something constructive to add DONT BOTHER, if the majority of ya crap was deleted from here your post count wouldnt be far off zero...

anyway enough of that the Gun Laws in the UK are vey strict, the largest caliber weapon here is .22 and never leave the gun range (legal weapons that is) Firearms incidents are very rare here, hence the reson why 95% of british policemen do not carry guns, the other 5% constitute bodyguards for royals, top government officials, and specialist forearms officers.

the only other people to have firearms outside of gun clubs premises are farmers who must show a police inspection that the shotgun they posess is in a gunsafe which is very secure, and getting a firearms license is practically impossible unless you can show 100% that you need it.

edit Mahjqa: its not the guns or the bullets its the person on the trigger, guns dont aim and fire on their own



[This message has been edited by tomeaglescz (edited 10-13-2002).]

Ya know Insider, I was actually beginning to think you weren't a complete moron.

I'll know better next time.

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The gun laws in Australia changed after the Port Arthur incident back in the late 90's. The only weapons that are legal here are pistols and low powered bolt action rifles. Although there are some funny laws that prevent anyone having a gun in public:

It's an offence for a civilian to carry a firearm in plain view.
It's an offence for a civilian to carry a concealed weapon of any kind. (That includes Kinves)

So those two laws kinda rule out guns unless their in your car / house / firearm club. Although up until the late 90's you could purchase pretty much any kind of weapon up to but not including full automatic carbines. Which meant you could walk in off the street and purchase a high powered semi-automatic rifle legally. I mean, who the fuck really needs a gun like that?

Seriously, though, InSiDeR, at the risk of further antagonizing everyone here, what exactly is it about this thread that you find amusing?

I think tom pretty much hit the nail on the head--he's most likely ex-military gone nuts.

And yeah, sniping isn't something done in the "heat of the moment," so this guy is seriously psychopathic.

Whats wrong with me tom? Lets count.

1. 2 of my pets just died over a span of 5 days, I just burried one of them.
2. I have to go back to school tommorow.
3. I'm 14.
4. I live in one fucking shitty town.
5. My parents live 800 miles apart.
6. I have to put up with gramaticaly ignorant hypocrites like you only I can't do anything about it.
7. Refering to #2, when I arrive at school tommorow, I will be greated with the phrase 'Devil Boy.' I will also later be called a satanist, a nazi, a communist, and I will be made fun of because I am atheist.

Can we think of anymore? Ahh yes we can.
8. More than 99.9% of the frequent visitors here despise of me and wish I would crawl into a hole, and just die.
9. I have done no recognizable help here.
10. People like you think I just post to get my fucking count up, asshole.

And I apologuise if I just ruined the damn thread, feel free to delete all my posts/edit them. I don't mind Drac flaming me but I am just NOT in the mood for tom.

Fuck seems about right. Yup.

Fuck.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-17-2002).]

Know what?
It's part of life Insider.
Want to be who you are? Excellent. You're accountable though, and I think that's what you just pretty much summed up in your last post. People don't like you? So fucking what? If you can make yourself happy and not hurt others...be you...but understand that a lot of us have been through this soul-searching already and forgive us if we lack compassion as you struggle to find yourself and post mindless off topic shit. We've all been there. Often, the best soul-searching is done alone...in silence...Try it.

[This message has been edited by Jeni (edited 10-14-2002).]

I don't think anyone can really delve into the shooter's motives (he could quite easily be being told to to do it by a giant insect who lives under his bath). I think the tarot card was interesting as it strikes me as the act of someone doing something that was expected of a rogue shooter than it being part of their bigger scheme.

Tom: As far as I'm aware the gun laws here are much stricter than that and they are about the strictest anywhere in the world. The gun clubs were becoming a good source of guns for the criminal element (the increasing restrictions just focused all the guns in a few locations) so no-one outside of the police or the armed forces are allowed guns (although possibily farmers or stock control people might be allowed some access). From a personal viewpoint things were starting to spin out o control on the gun front in the late 80s/early 90s (I was shot at, a large number of people I knew had had gun-related run ins with very minor thugs and I could have easily got a gun for few hundred pounds - I was even offered one by a kind who can't have been a teenager yet) and the restrictions have certainly made my life safer (and everyone's I assume) by making guns more difficult for petty criminals to get there hands on (the determined will always be able to get their hands on guns but they are also the kind of person who is less likely to pull a gun on a stranger over a minor incident) - not an arguement for gun control just my viewpoint - I doubt it would work in countries with widespread gun ownership for various reasons.

The only major problem is that our sporting shooters could no longer practice in this country (I'm not sure what the current situation is though). Oh and that the armed response teams do seem to shot an unfortunate number of unarmed people - there is a creeping move to arm more police and I'd be concerned about that, however, with the increase in the use of non-lethal weapons (sprays and stun guns) the full arming of the police seems much less likely.

InSiDeR: I don't think most of use would like to see you crawl into a hole and die and I'm sorry to hear about your problems but a lot of us have similar shitty things happen(ing) in our lives and we deal with it or share it - we tend not to lash out (I know you probably don't feel like sharing here but there are other places to blow off steam - most of us don't exclusively post here ). I've got no specific advice except every school has idiots like that and you learn to deal with it (hell I'm 31 and I still get abuse shouted at me in the street by slack jawed imbeciles so if you are going to do your own thing, which is a good thing, then its something you are going to have to live with).

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

InSiDeR...just e-mail me next time...OK? It'll save alot of...well, you know. Next time (or anytime...), drop me a line, I'll see what I can do.

Hmmm...this guy. Though I would tend to think maybe he has had training...it's possible that he doesn't (at least, maybe not military training...or security). It could be (and probably is more likely), that he has 'practiced' on animals first...probably as a hunter (and no, I have absolutely nothing against hunters...).

I believe he randomly chooses his targets, but maybe his 'hunting ground' areas have something to do with it...I believe that he is hunting...hunting humans. And though it seems that he is being very careful in 'setting up' his 'ambushes', I am sure that they will get him, if he continues.

Emps:I didnt realise that our Gun laws had changed from the following.

1, No weapons with a calibre over .22
2, No weapons to be kept at home unless by farmers, and only then a shotgun in a designated and inspected gun safe.
3, No one witha criminal record of any kind to be given a firearms license.

As for the unarmed people shot by police officers you are right it has happened, but our country isn't the only place this has happened, its a very sad fact of life that this has happened. One of the problems is that due to our Gun Laws, for a while the sale of replica weapons (I.E. those that look exactly like the real thing but do not work) led to some idiots choosing to use those in robberies etc to scare the victim.

When i left the military one of my closest friends who left when i did, joined the police force. He is now working on the Armed response Vehices.
They have a tough training regime (80-90% of candidates fail). And they have very strict guidelines to the use of lethal force, In some cases it is rediculous what they have to go through in order to actually use their weapons.

I.E.

1, When responding to a firearms call.

a. The officers in the car have to ask for permission to attend.
b. They then on arrival have to ask permission to use weapons if this permission hasnt already been given en route. (they only have side arms in the car, the HK MP 5's are in a gun safe unloaded in the back of the car, they need this permission to release these weapons and for the use of lethal force.)

Now when facing a guy/girl with a gun you still have very strict guidelines whether you can open fire or not.

IE.

1. Although the suspect is armed has he used the weapon yet ?
2. Is he posing a threat to life (IE Threatening or pointing the gun at anyone)

unless a set of factors is reached even though the gun may be visible, the officers are not allowed to open fire.

The same happened whilst i was on active service in northern ireland, incredible restrictions (to be honest even more restrictive).


as for this guy that we are talking about now, I seriously hope it is as WS portrayed. That it is a fruitcake that has no military training, but considering how successful he has been so far i feel this is unlikely.

One of the overall factors in sniper training is make sure you can get away undetected, or if detected still have several routes of escape planned.
So far unfortunately for the US Police and his victims the only mistakes he has made as a sniper is that some of his victims lived. Hopefully and i feel honestly the only way he will get caught is if he makes a big mistake. I hope he makes it quickly, unfortunately that means that someone else may die or get shot first.

As for the driver/shooter scenario that has been forwarded i think it is unlikely, this guy is probably working on his own. I just hope and pray he screws up big time, i personally would like to see this guy caught alive so that he can be picked apart psychologically and find out what the hell went wrong with him.

Insider: Take it to email my email is in my profile, i apologise for responding to your post in this thread it should have gone via email, but posting what you did in a topic like this was asking for a response...

i don't want him taken alive.... i don't care what his problem is.
If I were a cop, I'd save all the families alot of grief and the justice system alot of money by nailing this guy's brain to the wall.

Well, considering the weapon that this guy is using...I don't think he's a sniper. Sniper's don't usually use such weapons...because the calibre is not big enough to really be effective from long range...so, I tend to think he is not a sniper (at least, not a military sniper. Maybe a SWAT sniper? I'm not sure what type of sniper weapons SWAT uses...). As far as I know, military snipers don't use .223 calibre. His 'longest' shot was from around 140 meters...not particularly difficult. Especially with a scope. Anybody who has hunted, or shot weapons at 150+ meters, knows this. I know many hunters who would have absolutely no problem with this range...so it doesn't take a 'trained' sniper to do what this guy has done. I myself have had no problem with 150+ meter range with moving targets with 'peep' sights. If the shots were from 300+ meters, then that would be different...

As for his 'coming and going'...well, it may be a factor from training...yes, that could be. But it could also be that the police are having problems with this one...no real 'motive' (i.e. random victims), and this guy seems to change his 'hunting grounds' on a whim...which makes it hard to actually plan out where he might strike next. Because it could be anywhere. That he seems to be 'keeping it in the area', eventually he'll make mistakes...the problem would be, if he just...stopped. And then started again in a couple of years...or somewhere else...

Kinda like the Zodiac Killer in California...they never did get the guy. He just stopped.

I think this here and this here clears up potential 'sniper' questions - this guy is definetly not trained as a sniper from the military...but could be a trained SWAT sniper. One thing though - it appears this guy isn't all that good of a 'sniper' because he had trouble with one victim through glass (a miss). A trained sniper wouldn't. This thing is getting blown out of proportion by the media. This is obviously not a professional sniper at work...at the ranges being used, one can't call what he's doing 'sniping'. Also, the choice of weapon, calibre, and marksmanship is well below that of a professional sniper.



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-14-2002).]

Some people commenting on this on TV are already guessing it is a young man between 18-25 and blaming it on violent video games.

*sigh*

when i heard of this, i also thought of video games at first.
mhmmm the world is crazy these days

-THE SPACE-

Good points, WS. It did occur to me that, for a sniper, he's pretty inaccurate...

Tom: I'm sure the laws were tightened sometime around 2000 which basically took virtually all guns out of the hands of the public (with restrictions on the ownership of shotguns by farmers).

I agree with what you say about the armer response units (I knew someone vaguely who was in one) and as you say they are very well trained and these things will happen (although, of course, we should still be concerned) it was more that I was concerned about the trend to arming more police (its a tricky balance as they are out on the front line).

I struggled to find anything unbiased about the UK gun laws as most of the sites I found were accussing the UK of cultural cowardice and being lily-livered liberals.

Hmmm the various laws seem to be here but I was looking for a nice bite-sized summary:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/atoz/firearms.htm

This might have some more information (they have an education pack there):
www.gun-control-network.org/facts.htm

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Wow, I don't think I could live with in a place with gun laws like that. But that's mostly attributed to where and how I was raised. I go out shooting quite often on our farm. Either plinking cans with a .22, or shooting clay pigeons with a shotgun, or whatever. Been doing that for 12-13 years now; it's too much a part of who I am.

As WS pointed out, it's not so much his shooting skills that are real good, but the fact that he hasn't been caught. Hell, with a .22 even I can hit a coke can at 150 yds (~135m) with just the sights. With a scope, you oughta be able to hit a dime at that distance, and that's with a cheap scope.

As for already saying he's 18-25 and blaming it on video games, Give me a break...



________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

I found this interesting.


GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere


[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 10-14-2002).]

I don't know GD... i still think this sniper just doesn't feel terrorist related.

However that is an interesting article yes.
Did you know since 9/11 registrations for CHL (concealed handgun licenses) has tripled here in Texas?
Just a small fact that shows lots of people have thought of those scenarios and are trying to prepare for those kinds of eventualities.

GD: Those techniques in the video are the general techniques used by terrorist organisations across the world who are engaged in a more low level ongoing war of terror (not using large scale 'events' but creating a general climate of unease in everyone's everyday life). People like the IRA and ETA have been using those kind of techniques for years and the principles (if not the actual techniques) have a long history.

It could be relevant but I suspect the sniper is homegrown.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

The tarot card also, saying "I am God" could be more proof of the terrorist thing. I mean, maybe what it means is I am the voice of God, sort of thing, like how the Al Queda think they are the only ones who are right in God's eyes.

I don't know though?

It could be some normal guy who works as a driver for some company delivering things, seeing as how the killings always stop on the weekends. But like some one said earlier, it takes a strange character to repeatedly kill someone after viewing a person shot through a scope.

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[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-14-2002).]

Whoa guys! I didn't say I agreed with it... I just found it interesting. G'lord people get jumpy. It doesn't have that 'terroristic' feel to me either. Especially considering it isn't happening anywhere else. I just have this feeling that everyone who has been shot is connected in some way. Whether it's because of who they are or who they happened to be near at the time of the shooting. I dunno. there just isn't enough info yet to discount any possibilities.

It's frustrating.


GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

Ok folks, get this.

I walk into my 3rd Period class expecting one of the idiots to call me Devil Boy but NO! Guess What?! He said: 'LOOK THERES THE MARYLAND SNIPER!'

Morons.

Does anyone by any chance watch the FBI Files?? Or The New Detectives? Well if I do recall correctly, the most frightening and morbid serial killer which was never cought was the Green River Killer. He started out by picked up prostitutes where he later murdered them, sliced them and diced them, then dumped the body along the edge of Green River. Well time passed and more and more prostitutes bodies were found. There were reports of some halves of the bodies being in Oregan and the other halves being spread out all along Washington. Well time passed, mounths and years, over 70 prostitutes murdered the same way by the Green River Killer. He stopped and they never cought him, but had one suspect and prosecuted him hoping to crack him, and he never cracked the poor guy.

People at my school are saying that this guy won't get cought, then that he will and then that he won't. All this shit is crazy. I think that 'video games' won't have a thing to do with it.

But, I think he will be cought.

My opinion on this whole Sniper issue is that,

a) this guy has no sane motive (caused by his possible insanity)
b) he's a serial killer
c) He WILL be caught.

To elaborate on c), we know that he likes shooting people at gas stations, and we know where he's been choosing his targets. It's only a matter of time before he's caught, and I doubt we'll bring him alive - although killers of this nature usually do their crimes to be caught in the first place.

Insider, This was kinda funny...

quote:

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6. I have to put up with grammatically ignorant hypocrites like you only I can't do anything about it.

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First off, that sentence just does not flow... but eh... you may want to learn to spell before you start making accusations against others writings, for starters maybe you should practice the word "caught"

As far as Laughing at this thread? that is a heartless thing to say man. People are being killed and you LAUGH? I have friends in MD right in montgomery county... and you find it ALL funny? That is a heartless comment.


                                     

I'm not laughing at people dying, come on I'm not that morbid .

Just a few things people said in the perspective of this thread seemed a 'tad amusing. I feel for GD. I just watched on the news how hundreds of kids are terrified to go to school. It's absolutely crazy and I hope they nail this bastard. I just hope that the rest of the country won't think that its a muslim doing this.

Okay, lemme break dis down for yah. It sounded like you were heartlessly laughing at this thread, regardless of how you meant it. That was how it came across, and that is probably what set tom off. I could be wrong though; I doubt it.

On a message board everyone is expected to think out their posts. This is not a conversation filled with fragments. It is a structured text message that can be read and re-read before it is posted to make its point clear.

You must be aware that what you are typing will not come out like you meant it to sound. We can not see your face, we can not hear sarcasm in your voice. We take your text at its face value.

So when you say you are laughing at this thread it comes across as, you are laughing at the content of this thread, the main gist of the thread, NOT a few things that some different people said.

Okay... I gotta run now. Sorry about all this junk everyone.

Ok, let's return to the mainpoint of the thread...and InSiDeR, use E-Mail for any 'replies' outside of the main point of the thread, ok?

First of all, he's not a terrorist, this guy. If he was, then there would be political 'propaganda' involved, which there clearly isn't. As for the 'Tarot Card'...hmmm...well, we can look at that a couple of ways. Either the guy is seriously deranged...but I think that is not the case...otherwise, there would be something like that with every shooting, or he's just 'copycatting' the old 'Vietnam thing' with the Ace of Spades...but with his own 'twist', to taunt the authorities.

I think it's the latter.

One thing - though many may want to 'stamp' this guy as sick, or deranged, or psycho-pathic, he's probably quite sane, actually. He seems to take 'pleasure' from the 'hunt', and flagging his nose at the authorities (and society, in general). Deson't make it right, of course, but I think it's clearly wrong in this case to 'assume' he's nuts...his 'modus operandi' is clearly not that of an insane person...he apparently has no 'rituals', or fetishes (in the sense to his victims, anyway). I think (if they catch him...and I think they will...he's still doing the shootings, and is showing no sign of stopping - a direct clue to his motives...to 'flag his nose at the authorities'...IMHO) that it will turn out, that he probably has a prior record...he had to start somewhere. I don't think the first shooting victim was his first kill. Something, somewhere (somewhen?) 'removed' the inner block that most have against killing a human in this guy (yes, most of you have it...those of you who don't, have already lost it...like me :sad: ). This 'block' is really...strong. Once you lose it though, it's gone forever...I could go on with this, but it's mostly irrelevant to this case.

In any event, he is a danger to society and needs to be stopped. Has to be stopped. If he is not stopped, it will encourage others to do the same - that is not something that we want to have happen. I feel that the people of the region need to get in on this...and work with the police. This guy's method is very hard to foresee...because (IMHO) it is random...thus, one needs eyes and ears everywhere. The public can provide that. Must provide it. The sooner that they do, the faster this guy will get caught. He's already made mistakes.

Well, we will see, won't we?

Geez will some of you guys lay off the kid? I don't know who comes off as more immature, InSiDeR or the rest of you, who shit all over him. We all get the point you don't like the kid. It has little to do with what he says and more to do with the fact that he says something. You're right Izzy, everyone is expected to think out their posts. People are also expected to excercise some thought in reading posts from others. He said the thread was laughable, and it is. No one said the situation was laughable. There's a gigantic difference between the two. If your not willing to put the thought into reading his posts that is expected, you should be the last person to criticize anyone for not putting thought into writing their posts.

To go back to the subject though, who knows what could be motivating this sniper. The last I heard, his latest victim was outside a Home Depot in a shopping center with a Michaels craft. The attacks began outside of a Michaels, so perhaps it's not entirely out of left field that this is a disgruntled former employee seeking revenge. My money would be on some middle aged white male, who was never all there in the head. The Pentagon denies there being a military-related suspect in the area, but he seems to have some sort of training.

-Jestah
Cell 277

Jestah, what gives you the idea that this guy has some sort of formal training? Could you perhaps explain why you think this?

Also, we're assuming it's one guy. Aren't there 2 suspects?

I have to disagree with you, WS, when you say that this guy (or guys) probably isn't nuts. I don't think he's outright Charles Manson crazy, but he's got to have some inner voices or some abnormal activity going on in his head in order for him to be killing all these people. As previously mentioned, I think terrorism has been ruled out, and there are no clear motives.

I think this guy is just getting off on doing what he's doing and not being caught.

[This message has been edited by synax (edited 10-15-2002).]

well, this 'sniper' can't be too off his nut, i mean, he's smart enough to not be caught (yet). don't get me wrong, obviously, this person has a wire crossed somewhree. and from what i recall, these shots haven't been made from super long distances (correct me if i'm wrong there)so that makes me think that he's probably not had any formal training...cuz i mean, anyone who hunts would be able to make those shots. and i would think that if he was a pro, he'd be more into showing off his ability to be a bajillion yards away and takin someone out.
i dunno why this person's doing this, and i think it's pointless speculating as to why, because in the end, we'll probably never know because he'll probably be shot by the cops.

OK, Lets lookat some of the points raised in this thread and try and tie 'em up.

The guy/girl (we are all talking as if it is a male) appears to be randomly choosing his targets, although he has used the same kind of location on different occaisions.

Why:

1.Ok if you want to create oanic/chaos do it somewhere where your actions will have the greatest effect, i.e. lots of people see it.
2.Most Malls, Gas Stations have easy access via roads and tend to have lots of people floating round, (more targets, easy access/getaway for gunman) also the fact that they are usually in open spaces (clearer shot on target)

Relatively small calibre weapon.

Why:

1.As we are not talking about long distances the need for a higher calibre isnt necessary. Also the larger the weapon, the bigger the bang...more chance of being spotted or caught. Taking into account the calibre size also the round itself is commonly used in sports so would not be so easy to find who has been making purchases of say a larger calibre round in gunshops etc. Also as this round is not largely used for longer distances, shooting through glass this may in fact prove to be the reason for some of his/her failiures.

Webshamen brought up some very excellent points.

1.The guys sanity.

This guy although the acts are senseless doesnt not mean he is insane (mentally ill). His actions are carefully planned by the looks of it, he appears to have looked at his target areas, his methods of concealment and escape... someone insane less balanced may not have made the same carefull planning.

2.The mental block about taking someone elses life.

This is not as easy to do as most people would think, a lot of killings are done in the spur of the moment (anger etc). When your mind can be in a temporary state of unbalance. But once you have done it for the first time the step isnt so big the next time.

Now this could give cause as to why he/she has carried on so long for the following reasons.


1.His original target was his intended victim, but as he got away with it, possibly getting some kind of thrill from it he decided to carry on.
2.He has some kind of grudge and something to prove to society/someone/government etc.

Now the tarod card thing.

If it was him that indeed left the card why...

1.Possibly so that the card would lead to him being called .....
2.One of the most succesful serial killers never to be caught was the zodiac killer, some kind of wierd tie in with tarot maybe..???
3.doesnt want to be called the "sniper" he wants something more glorious (ego feeding).

The terrorist angle.

I think this is a non starter..

why

1.terrorist organisations by nature like to claim credit for what they are doing. No such organisation has stepped forward, why not, i mean they have achieved their aims to cause terror and panic.

The professional shooter.

I personally looking at all the info and his methods and the fact that he has on majority been succesful in the shots think that this guy has had military or security training. I may be wrong, webshamen brought up an interesting point about the mental block on taking another human beings life. But if it was a hunter although he would have experience in stalking his prey and shooting, it is still a very big pschological step to move up from an an animal to a person. Being in the military and actually doing the shooting in real life, for real does have an effect on you, i know this from experience and looking at WS's posts in this thread and others i know he probably will agree with me. That is why I think this guy has done this before in the military more than likely. As for police/security i dont think someone from this kind of background ,(traditionally standing up for the higher moral ground) would undertake this action without being mentally unbalanced. (which in turn leads back to the question of his state of mind, which i have already covered.)


Also just becaus eof the calibre of weapon he is using does not forclose the fact that he has military training, heck if it was me i sure as hell wouldnt use a miiltary weapon, calibre.

why.

1.Easy to track sales of ammunition, weapons etc.
2.I bet right now all ex military personell within 100's of miles are quietly and discreetly beeing checked up on, especially those that parted from the military on less than happy grounds.
3.One final point that so far hasnt been raised that i can see, what about a "failed" trained sniper.. As in somone that undertook the training and failed it, and now has a big grudge and something to prove i.e. That he can do it. (stranger motives have been heard before)

anyway thats about the wrap as i see it.

tom: good point about the failed trained sniper...didn't think of that.

i dunno...i think i'll just turn off the tv and wait til the movie comes out so i can be suprised by the ending

I was getting gas today, for the first time since this stuff started. It was rather strange. Not really scary, but just strange. I was two gas stations over from the Sonoco where the guy got shot the other day. This one guy was pacing back and forth while his gas pumped, a lady and I both decided to sit in our cars waiting, but this other guy just stood there. He just stood there like normal; pumping his gas. I guess he figured he was not going to let some crazy sniper change his life. I guess he figured instead of letting a sniper change his life, he would let him end it. I mean there is a line between bravery and stupidity that I think this guy crossed. But anyway, everything went fine, it was just wierd. I have never felt that my life could end just like that before. It is a wierd feeling. I guess this sniper is actually doing something good. He makes me realize how much I love my wife.

Anyway, about this guy/gal/psycho demon. At this latest one at the Home Depot last night, there were tons of witnesses. Hopefully something will pan out. But there are so many of these white vans around here it is crazy. This place must be the capitol of white vans. I am trying to think of something craft to write, something that may explain all of this, but I just come up blank. I can only hope that he is crazy. If he is not, well. I don't know what to think about someone normal finding any sort of justification for murder and terror.

By the way today is my 27th birthday.

~Insert sig here~

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-15-2002).]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone look at the pattern of sniper hits on a map? All of the earliest hits are in southern Maryland; most in a tight grouping. The first is alone, slightly northeast of the big grouping (probably where he lives). He only moved into Northern Virginia to spread the killings out and try to avoid being caught.

They should look for him in Maryland. That's where he lives.

Seems kind of ironic to have a birthday and celebrate it in the heat of a killing spree. I hope you have a safe day man Happy BDay .

Ok, I am beginning to think that there are two people involved, maybe one driving, one in the back sniping. Although it may be incredibly difficult to do while in motion, maybe the driver parks, or maybe at a stop sign/red light.

Just a theory, not much evidence to prove.

Now as to why would this person be doing such a thing.... The answer is absolutely simple.

Because he can! He can wreak havoc in the capital of our country and get away with it. Pretty soon we are going to have officers patroling the streets. Untill this person gets cought, all of DC is alert to egotistical genius. And when/if we do aprehend this serial killer, we will take precautions to prevent it.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-16-2002).]

Funny you should say that, InSiDeR. I was just about to post these two articles that suggest two perps.
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,65646,00.html
"Young said as he backed his truck out of his parking spot, a white Astro van with two men inside tried to turn into his lane. He said the driver appeared very agitated to find his way blocked and instead drove by a neighboring Chinese restaurant and out of sight."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021015/ap_on_re_us/a_sniper_s_mind_3
"Eric Haney, who trained as a sniper at Fort Bragg and was a founding member of the Army's ultrasecret Delta Force, believes the shootings are the work of a pair of young men, working in tandem as military snipers are trained to do ? one as the lookout, the other the shooter. But he thinks the closest they got to a real elite sharpshooter was at a Special Operations convention."

I know the officials are downplaying the possibility that this is a foreign terrorist activity but it's not completely out of the question. It could be a sleeper cell in action.

Sleepers are very valuable, and take years (sometimes decades) to cultivate and prepare. And when they are activated, they are pretty much finished. Why would you throw away a sleeper cell on a few random killings? Granted, it is causing a panic, but I think terrorists would save their sleepers for something much larger than this (assassination of an important figure, etc.). I'm not downplaying the seriousness of the situation here, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit the terrorist MO.

And yeah, the two-perp theory does make sense. It would make it a lot easier for the shooter to get away.

Well just to let you know, I came up with that theory on my own . I didn't steal it from any articles/tv reports.

I am about to watch CNN Connie Chung here in a sec.

I just heard on the news that some eye-witnesses claimed to have seen a man of middle-eastern descent in a white van. I really hope that isn't true but it very well may be.

Just saw that, Insider. She brings on a guy who claims that, while not the core reason, Doom has *obviously* got a hand in the way this guy operates, and links it in one proverbial way or another to the Columbine Shootings.

And I'm not going to bring up a massive debate as to whether video games do or don't make a person go insane and kill everyone around them using their bare hands and/or guns, but I do have to say... why in the world would anyone still bring up Doom as the prime example of video game violence? I mean, I've heard this game bashed time and time again for it's 'ultraviolent-baby-killing-gore'... but didn't it come out, like what, 11 years ago?

But seriously, where are we (and by we, I mean the media...) gonna turn to this time, other than video games? Maralyn Manson is out of the limelight, and is obviously not able to make any of his super satanic messages be known to the pure and always-eager-to-follow masses of children with rifles. Eminem can't be blamed because the sniper didn't rape and slap his own mother. So... video games? Anyone? Video games it is...

Otay, back to our regularly scheduled thread...

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

My heart goes out to all the victims, their families, and the people of that general area who have to lead a normal life but are terrified that they will be the next victim.

I am not a criminialogist; however, I have my suspicions regarding this killer.

1. I believe there is more than one sniper. (because of the momentum)
2. I would be surprised if a white van or truck is involved. (because it was mentioned with regards to one of the earliest shootings people will naturally look for a white van when there is a shooting. White vans are about as common as dandelions so it is not surprising someone would see one.)
3. It is not middle eastern terrorism. Not flashy enough. Terrorism of that sort attacks multiple people at once. Look at the difference between what occured in Bali and what is occuring in the Washington DC area. Terrorism is used for a political or religious agenda. The killings appear to have no agenda attached to them except to kill people in a risky manner.

I hope that the murder last night was the last victim and these people are caught soon.

quote:

---

I just heard on the news that some eye-witnesses claimed to have seen a man of middle-eastern descent in a white van. I really hope that isn't true but it very well may be.

---

I hear you, InSiDeR. Eyewitnesses tend to be very unreliable, though, primarily because of the way human memory works. No matter what they may have seen at the time, it is very possible that they "remember" a Middle Eastern man because that's what they all fear deep down. In other words, the mind will insert things after the fact, and the person can't tell the difference, thinking that that's what they originally saw.

Take dreams, for example. Dreams are the mind's way of making sense of random images we experience during REM sleep. Yet if we are asked to recount later on what we saw in our sleep, we will remember the dreams (the mind's ordering of the images), rather than the images themselves.

And don't underestimate the power of suggestion. One time, when I was young (not sure why I remember this particular incident... yet another mystery), my mother and I were driving to the local grocery . I saw a crow sitting on the roof of the store and pointed it out to my mother. She said, "That's not a crow, that's just a lump of dirty snow." I looked again, and sure enough, it looked like a lump of dirty snow. Then it flew away.

I suppose this is just a long-winded way of saying that we shouldn't put too much faith in some eyewitness accounts, especially accounts that describe something as vague as nationality or descent. Of course, it could be true, but I would bet against it.

Nice post Tom. Happy B-Day GN.

Now, maybe there are two...hard to tell. One thing though. There is no way that the person(s) (corrected from guy...) is a profi. Profis don't work like this person(s). And even the profi Snipers are saying this. This person(s) is not a profi, and I don't think that the person(s) involved is a 'failed sniper'...because then they would have never seen actual 'action'. And the number of 'failed snipers' is not all that great...which would make it easier to track this person(s) down. But we will see...

The point with pre-planned killing...has been brought up. Well, that is a very hard thing to actually do. Someone needs to have that 'block' removed, to be able to do something like this. Of that, I am certain. I don't think the first victim in this 'shooting series' was the first 'kill' by this person(s). I have the feeling that the first one lies further back...but again, we will see...

As for the Van...well, either
a) The person(s) have just been lucky up till now, and are using a white van
b) The person(s) is smart, and changes vehicles. Maybe one of the shootings was done with a white van...but I don't think that this person(s) would continue to use one...would you?

As for the calibre...
Heh. Tom, I thought that maybe you'd think this one out a little better. All (well, most) real sniper type weapons use .50 cal now. But many 'sniper-type' weapons also use 7.62 mm...about the size of your average .30-30. And there is so much of that kind of ammo in the country (most hunters use this type of ammo to hunt with...), that it would be very difficult to track down. But .223 developed for use as a 'sniper bullet'...hmmm...yes, there are 'light' hunting weapons that use much the same...that's a tough call. But both are hard to track down. Both are seemingly 'normal', mainstream type of ammo. So I don't think that this is well thought out in that regards. And with a 'higher' cal., this person(s) then wouldn't have had problems with the window shot. Actually, the window shot tells us a lot about the person(s) 'expertise'. Namely, that this person(s) is not a profi, and has no training. Otherwise, such a newbie mistake would not of been committed, esp. not with .223 cal. ammo. And because of this, I do not think the person(s) involved are profis, or trained, in sniping.

That with the sound...a point, maybe...but I don't really think so. Both are loud. I'm surprised that this person(s) is not using a silencer. That is one of the reasons I don't think this person(s) is a profi.

The terrorist option -
Well, though the shootings are causing terror (and panic), it just doesn't 'feel' right. A terrorist act normally is politically motivated...and in that area, there are certainly more prominant targets...why random people? Desn't make any sense at all, if you ask me.

The sanity question -
This person(s) has to be sane...esp. if there is more than one. The entire thing speaks of a logical, thought-out process. Though it is sad, and tragic (that anyone would do this), we should not make the mistake of thinking that this person(s) is a madman, a psycho. The methods being used just don't support this. This is not the method of someone who has 'snapped', or is mentally ill. It doesn't seem to be anger, either. Strange enough to say, but it looks like someone is...'enjoying' the 'game'...i.e. that against the authorities. But, again, we will see...

To last...
I feel that this person(s) will be caught...the person(s) doesn't show any sign of stopping. Therefore, the chances increase that a mistake (a bad one) will be made, or that the authorities will 'get lucky'...either way, I'm sure they'll get this person(s). I just hope they do it soon.

Once again, a heart felt moment for all those who have suffered because of this...and the families.

My take, which could be false, but mine nonetheless.

Probably... I said PROBABLY from a different country performing terrorist activities. It would be very hard to pull out a gun, arm it (you wouldn't want it armed while the car was jostling) aim it, put it away again (because people might see it) and then drive off. Two people? One drives while the other gets the gun ready and puts it away, thus reducing the idle time wherein someone may spot a suspicious looking van with a gun muzzle pointing out of the window.

With all of the things going on right now, it would be very hard to be a United States citizen and have the guts to talk to someone else about the idea of sniping and having them as an accomplice. You never know who is going to turn you in.

To turn on your own citizens takes a little insanity, as well. Most of the sniper killers in US history had some mental defect. Thusly they got caught. This guy is thinking VERY clearly. And he can take out thirteen year olds. Not saying it's impossible for an American, but it's alot easier on the mind to kill the "enemy's" children than to kill your own.

"Some level of skill, but no expertise." Sounds like sniper training in a third world country or at a makeshift military training facility.

The tarot card left for police. It said "Dear Police, I am God." Psychologically, I think that a person feels familiar with their own law enforcement. When you go to another city, they seem a little stranger to you. If you went to another country, they would be totally alien. When you are alien to someone, and you do not know how to address them, you use politeness by default. "Dear Police" indicates to me that they have NO familiarity with our law enforcement. Also, when I first heard about the tarot card, I thought for sure he was just an egotistical maniac that has played to many video games. But WE take it in the very English context, someone making a statement that they are capable of presiding over people's fates and can't be stopped. But when you read it like it is written, "I am God." it can also mean that "I am the messenger of God". In order not to lend any assistance to the investigation, you would not want to say Ala (sp?), but still get the point across.

That's my take.

By the way, they recently caught the green river killer, Insider. That was on the discovery channel, too. Pretty good program.

What really pisses me off is when people who can't explain a tragic accident, have to make an excuse (video games) to compensate for what they cannot prove.

This has happened several times and to name a few,

Ozzy,
Doom,
Beetles,
Manson (im refering to the musician although charles did blame the beetles for his insanity),

And coming soon to maryland USA, Grand Theft Auto 1-3.

To be perfectly honest with you, the first time I played that game I thought it was horrible, the first time I made eye contact with the game was win I saw my friend take a bat to some old lady walking down the street, he was cracking up but I was gawking. That game is very wrong in several ways, I played it and I totally acknowleged that what I was doing was wrong. But its the acknowlegment that allows you to continue, if you don't acknowlege then you may endure such side effects as, not caring about death, making a pistol out of your index finger and aim it at your friends while joking around, or, coming soon again to maryland, becoming a sniper.

I think video games have nothing to do with this.

I just noticed something.

This is one man [alegedly(or 2 men)]. One anonymous man, has brought the attention of 400 police detectives, 200 officers (cops), 400 FBI agents, the president, and the pentagon, and I suppose you could say the entire US government has their attention on this one man.

Think of that power. Now this isn't like Bin Laden, this person isn't (well at least it hasn't been proven yet) a religous fundamentalist posing terror in to make a negative statement towards out government. No no, this is something else.

Thats power.

He has power, but it is power that can be taken away from him.

Assuming this is a home-grown serial killer(s). Often times these people have been terribly abused as children. One of the feelings they have in their formative years is a sense of powerlessness. So it is not too difficult to see how the kind of power you describe, InSiDeR, can be a huge turn on for someone with that background. Having control over another person's life is almost an ultimate position of power.

But I'm still wondering about who the perps really are. I have heard that in some terrorist attacks in other countries, snipers have been utilized. Although I agree it is most likely a home-grown criminal.

Video games. I was joking. Most people who say that are. They are trying to downgrade acts to stupidity. Like when your friend says something stupid and you tell him he watches too much television. However, I think video games CAN help someone get into the psychy of someone who does not think about what he is really doing. Ever put it on cheat, or find that in some video games where there are "civilians", for some reason, GENERALLY speaking, you tend to do crueler things to characters than you would EVER think of doing in real life. It's a power trip. Alien Vs. Predator, for instance. Use my zoom and my little spear gun. Find an alien that doesn't know I'm there. I COULD shoot the alien in the head, but I'd like to see him crawl. As an alien, those scientists that have no weapons?... walk right up to them and while they're having a panic attack, slowly center the screen and bite their heads off!! Killin'! I want to KILL!!

**Trying to catch breath**

See what I mean?

No, but I'm listening.

bugs: but it seems that in those cases of terrorist snipers, there are political statements behind the kilings - or assassinations. personally, i've never heard of terrorists taking pot shots at regular citizens.
This sounds much more like one of the US's home grown killers.

An interesting thought crossed my mind last night. Seeing as how the sniper's attacks are so 'random', doesn't it kinda look like target practice? Perhaps he's trying to get everyone to flip out (successfully, I might add) and believing that he's merely out there to pick off random people in random places... so a real strike at someone in a position of power could be done.

But that raises the question: why risk your operation practicing on people on the streets? Surely that's a real dumb move to make, as it'll surely raise a stink in whatever reigon/country you're doing it in, and there's a good chance you'll be caught before you actually pull out the big bang, so to speak.

I don't know, I guess I just think he's trying to get everyone to think it's completely random so he can start hitting more 'important' targets later on. *shrugs* Maybe it's just me.

I apologize if I sound crass or morbid, as my thoughts and prayers go out to those who have been struck, the survivors of, and those who are living an alternate way of life due to the sniper attacks...

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

Not at all, it's perfectly logical that he is hitting random people so that he can later take out a target such as maybe our president. He just may be trying to pass off the feeling of random victims.

You know, after watching a bit more on last night's shooting, and finding that he was only about 30 yards from his target, and probably fired from the vehicle itself, well... that's not very sniper-like, is it?

One question - are all of the 'targets' white? I can't seem to find any references to the race of the victims...anybody know?

No.
I don't know all the victims' races, but at least one was black and at least one was of Indian or Pakistani descent.

No, the targets are all different backgrounds and races.


Go to this site, then click on 'Interactive: Sniper Attachs' - which is in the box with the Special Report heading. This has a picture of each victim.
Shooting Victims

See #4, 5, and 7.

~Insert sig here~

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-17-2002).]

Sniper Problem Solved

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-17-2002).]

ROFL at GN: Thats pretty disturbingly funny...but more disturbing than funny...

Morbid humor like that can be a healthy way to get through stressful situations.

I'd have to agree with Bugs, sometimes it is. More often than not though, it's met with criticism.

On another note, whats with the odd double posts?

Don't know.

doubles are now deleted.

mysterious echoes in this hall, yes?
mysterious echoes in this hall, yes?

weird
weird

Makes sense, I accidently double posted in the Funniest Joke in the Asylum topic, and a few seconds later, it was gone. At the time, I figured some watchful Mad Scientist just so happened to be checking it as I doubled. Heh.

Interesting, for a while there I thought I was seeing double!!

Hey GN, link doesn't work above... Did they take it down already?

back on topic...
All the world knows exactly how unreliable eyewitness reports are in a criminal investigation. Alas, it's really all we have to go on in this situation. There's no real defineable pattern in the killings, there appears to be no real defineable pattern in the chosen victims...
It begins to sound more and more like some nutjob who got his/her hands on a good rifle with a scope and has enough psychosis to decide that Human Hunting Season is in. At the moment, the chances the sniper will actually get caught are slim to none, and slim's packing to leave town...
What was that about white vans being like dandelions?
Of course, we can always hope that this person will get super careless in their confidence and leave some mega clue for the authorities... Hopefully, that something will be less enigmatic and stereotypical than a tarot card... (in honor of Charlie Brown: Good Grief!)

Try this one...The guy changed the location...
Decoy

Bodhi - Thats true, but he is definatly rational, because of the FBI joining in with high-tech airplanes watching the area, there have not been any killings. So he is not stupid. But I guess you can be smart and crazy, just look at the movie Beautiful Mind.

Cell 816

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-18-2002).]

"nutjob" is merely a convenient description... I didn't necessarily mean to imply he was crazy...

GN - I've not actually had a chance to watch that movie yet. I hear it's excellent though. I may have to check it out.
With all of the coverage on TV, how can this guy NOT know what the authorities are doing to track him down. I mean, it's all over every news channel out there... I heard one reporter the other day say that they figured that what he had to be doing was going into his hotel room every night and first thing turning on the TV to find out what they were saying about the investigation... Not only is he egotistic, in that he wants to be watched for, but he also has to be making his plans where to go next (i.e.: NOT where they are looking for him)

Maybe it's just me, but it occurs to me that CNN and FOX News Channel are a bad thing. I mean, lets just let the whole world know EXACTLY what we're doing here... (I had this same thought as it relates to the coverage of the whole bin Laden/Iraq stuff... Those channels are international, and so there's one of 2 things going on: either the gov't is feeding us incorrect info thru the media in order to throw off the "enemy", or the media is giving us correct information, therefore making it impossible to catch these schmuks because they know our every move...
(o what a tangled web we weave...)

[This message has been edited by eyezaer (edited 10-18-2002).]

I'm just worried that they're not going to catch the crazy s.o.b., and he's going to keep on killing people. That guy deserves multiple life sentences.

I heard on the radio here in the Mid-Western US that they have a phone booth surrounded in Maryland(I think Maryland, maybe Virginia) Maybe they finally caught up to the bastard. He supposedly left a number at the most recent shooting outside of a store that the police were supposed to get a call on. They waited and got no call. They beseeched him to call them. Maybe he did(in his stupidity or arrogance) and they traced it to him finally. I haven't heard anything about it since then. Anyone in the area that can confirm this?

GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

Someone in my office was passing around a copy of this today. I wonder, are they getting closer? Or are they just trying to pin it on someone...


Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who chooses to remain on this plane in order to help others find enlightenment.
Cell 617

Well i am surprised that no one has posted the news here..

This morning 1 man was taken into custody at a gas station driving a white van following an undercover police operation, a second man was detained in a nearby location, HOWEVER, the police in a public statement a few minutes before the time of this post have stressed that NEITHER man has been charged and they have NOT yet CLASSED them as SUSPECTS but both are being questioned relating to the case.

ALSO CONFIRMED THE SHOOTING this weekend has been CONFIRMED by ballistics evidence that the same weapon was used in the prior INCIDENTS.

i hope and pray for those affected and the relatives of the victims, this isnt some sick fuck that led police on a wild goosechase like before, and for whatever reason this guy(s) gave themselves up or something....

well the bad news it appears according to police latest press conference a while ago, that these two guys are not connected to the shootings.

Just hope they get this sorted soon

For all your conspiracy needs...

Could the US gov't be involved in these slayings to give them more lead-way for searching for terrorists? I mean, though it may seen sick, what are 9 deaths, compared with the many thousand that may happen due to terrorism?

Army Airplanes

Cell 816

Heh, GN, you're going way out on a limb. The 'US Government', as you put it, doesn't particularly like working in the public eye...esp. in a situation like this one...where deaths are the case. No way. Such things are illegal to say the least, and the chances of someone getting caught, or exposed in the public eye, would be much to big of a risk in this case.

I would say the possibility is slim-to-none. If it was a 'black-op', then someone screwed up royally. And if it was a 'cover' operation designed to 'smoke out' terrorists, then I really think it would have taken a much different direction and scope.

I can say with certainty, that this is not an operation being done by any agency of the US Government.

So back to the original subject of the thread...

I Didn't really think so either, Webshaman. I was just thinking, which is something I try and do occasionally. And let me stress occasionally.

GN: I'm sure its possible just not probable (although that won't stop some people out there elaborating on this). However, it does demonstrate one of the reasons why conspiracy theories are so popular - its a lot 'easier' to see everything as part of some much larger plan than accept the unpleasant truth that things are chaotic and there are lunatics out there doing these things for their own reasons.

The fact that various governments are using these incidents to tighten laws on us all is another matter entirely (politicians are the world's greatest opportunists).

A law stopping the army from helping in law enforcement does seem a little out-dated as I'm sure the military have resources which are unavailable to to the police.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Wait... what's that? I can hear the black helicopters approaching! Run for the hills! Sheeeeesh. Conspiracy theories get annoying after you've heard them a thousand times to explain *everything* under the sun.

[edit] aah yea. Double post.

I guess I will add a link.

What you looking at!!!

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-22-2002).]

The sun is really a giant camera that the US gov't uses to spy on people who have the word Bug in their name.

Now there is a cospiracy to expain everything, including the sun.

But anyway, in case you guys did not know, the guy shot this morning died.

He was a bus driver in his mid-30's with a couple kids. I think thats 10 so far.

I don't like to use profanity in here, but what the FUCK...

I went shopping last night, and people were running from their cars to the store.
I joined them.
It's better to be parinoid than dead.

Cell 816

You've got to watch out for people with "bug" in their names.

GN, I've heard people are purchasing bullet proof vests, crouching down while pumping their gas, and walking in zigzags... have you seen any of that?

LATEST SCOOP FROM CNN TODAY:


French authorities have notified Interpol and US authorities that one of its TOP MILITARY MARKSMEN has gone missing last reports place him in north america...

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but this guy is quoted as being an excellent marksman

click here for cnn page


Edit also this: From front page of cnn.com (also link to more info on this including ransom like request in letter)

The head of the task force investigating the Washington-area sniper shootings released part of a message left at the scene of a sniper shooting on Saturday: "Your children are not safe anywhere at any time." Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose also said police had received a new sniper-related message and would respond soon.




[This message has been edited by tomeaglescz (edited 10-22-2002).]

Well, if it is him, he's not using his skills. From what I've heard all the shots have been average at best and local cops have been saying he's probably more of a wannabe sniper than anything else. But you never know.

Well, I haven't seen anyone wearing a bulletproof vest, but ducking while pumping gas, yea I've seen that. And yea, I don't think it's a pro, he has missed one time, and he has left three people injured, not killed. If he was a pro, I doubt he would go for chest and stomach shots.

Cell 816

well that was damn quick, within 3.5 hours of the nationwide bulletin on the news about the two wanted men in regards to the sniper attacks, they were captured this morning, serach warrants were hen issued for their property etc, and sourcesfrom law enforcement have stated that they are looking for a third man, a former US soldier in connection with the shootings.

btw, guess what... Middle Eastern looks and name for the guy that was captured this A.M. although he changed his original surname (jones to mohammed).

Hmmm...and the demands for money, last I heard, was ten million...

Now, this changes things drastically...it establishes a motive. I have heard that the perp(s) sent more than one communication to the police regarding monetary demands...don't know if that is true, though. If true, then we have something else to consider here. Trained or not, those responsible wouldn't have to kill the victims to get the point accross (though, as we all know, most were killed...), just avoid capture and continue, until the demands were met.

Now, one could make a case that it could possibly be 'terrorist' related...if, for example, Al-Qaeda needed money...to buy nukes, for example...but I think that's stretching it a little.

At least the motive seems to be clear now...

It would have to be connected to the 9/11 incident...
I ask you - how smart is it to request a transfer of 10mil to a stolen credit card number? I mean, isn't that just begging to be captured?

Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who chooses to remain on this plane in order to help others find enlightenment.
Cell 617

It does really seem like it is all over (although the daily press conference has been delayed) - I just saw some fascinating live footage of them driving along with the car in a trailer.

Latest news from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2356271.stm

quote:

---

Mr Muhammad is believed to have served in the army at a base near Tacoma and to have lived in the house.

Fort Lewis, south of the town, provides some of the most intensive sniper training in the US military, correspondents say.

---

What I find interesting is that they were arrested in "a blue 1990 Chevrolet Caprice"

It also looks like he may have had a practice run elsewhere:

quote:

---

In another development, police are investigating a possible link between the sniper and a killing in Montgomery, Alabama.

A 52-year-old woman was shot and killed outside a liquor store there on 21 September. Another woman was wounded.

Reports suggested that a fingerprint of one of the two arrested men had been found on police evidence at the scene.

---

I know he changed his name to a more Islamic one but how significant do people think that really is?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

The radio news reports this morning were stating that the police don't believe either of these guys were working with any larger group. I've also heard reports that each of them were known to make remarks sympathetic to the 9/11 terrorists though. I've heard nothing concrete about their motives as of yet.

Apparently, they've found a gun in relation to the two men taken into custody this morning. Check the story out here.

Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who chooses to remain on this plane in order to help others find enlightenment.
Cell 617

Goody gum drops...

I can take my nightly walks again.



teamEarth ~~ Cell 816

Well, this is getting long...so continued here.