Preserved Topic: God of the bible (Page 1 of 3)

I have never read the bible, this is the first time and I am about half way through the second story, where Moses is about to read the ten commandments. I am very confused. Isn't God supposed to be all knowing and all seeing? Why is it then that God tells the Hebrews to put blood on their doors so he will know who they are? Why does he not know this? Also, when God tells then to sacrifice all their first born to him, what kind of a messed up God would want such a thing? And the way he is trying to prove that he is the true God, this alone makes me think that he is not the true God. Also, when God is leading them out of Egypt, they follow a cloud by day, and a burning light in the sky by night....Humm..sort of sounds like a UFO. I think all you Christians are being misled. I think this is some sort of evil creature that wants to control people, so he claims to be the true God, but in reality, the true creator of all things, the all seeing/knowing God has been silent for all of eternity. What does he/she have to prove to us?

Anyway, what I am asking basically, is how does the definition of God, an all powerful, all seeing being; compare with the God in the bible? What makes you think the Christian God is really a God at all?

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

The blood was a sacrifice not to tell God who were israelites, but who WANTED to be saved. God saved anyone who put lamb's blood over their door and smote the first-born of those who did not. This was merely a sign of faith and not any kind of lacking on God's part.

I cannot completely answer you why God killed all of the first-born. God said that pharoah would choose the next plague. The Pharoah had free will, and said that he would kill all of the Hebrew first-born. Therefore, Pharoah brought it upon his people himself. The Crappy part is with an omnicient deity, God knew what Pharoah was going to choose before he chose it. I would almost call this entrapment, so I can't really explain it.

Only a human would create a deity so insecure that he felt the need to prove his power to mortals. In this sense, we see that God's motives are no more complex than the base motives of the Greek and Roman deities. It's a very compelling arguement for not believing.

An omnipotent deity can produce any kind or signal he wishes. If he wants the Israelites to follow a cloud by day and a burning light at night, that's his perogative and falls well within the rhealm of his abilities according to the faith.

Answering your last question, I believe that the Christian God is entirely a human fabrication as has been every other deity in the history of man.

GN, before you get much further along in Genesis, any chance of starting with one of the gospels? Preferably John? It's much closer in time, the foundation of Christianity, and more culturally targeted to the Western mindset.

. . : slicePuzzle

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Answering your last question, I believe that the Christian God is entirely a human fabrication as has been every other deity in the history of man.

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Yup.

Poseidon and Loki are as real to me as is the 'God' of the bible.

=)

That comment had to put a smile on your face a mile wide!

warm & fuzzy

i was kind of thinking the same as bugs with where you're reading, keep in mind that the bible all ties together and a lot of what happens in the old testament is historical and sets up christ's coming in the new testament. you might also get more than two chapters in before judging the entire christian faith

btw, props to you for taking the initiative to actually read the bible. i think its something everyone should do if simply from a historical/cultural/literary perspective regardless of their beliefs.


KAIROSinteractive

Fig - Yea, I'm about to have a kid, and I want to fully understand the basis for the Christian methology before trying to explain it to him.

Bugs - Some other people have recommended to me to start with the gospels, but I figured I would start at the beginning.

DL + Seneca - I totally disagree. I think that all God's are real, I just think that they are not God's as we currently percieve them. I think they are real beings, sort of like aliens, or perhaps humans who achieved natural powers. There are supposedly people who live in caves all over the planet, who have been alive and seperate from us for a long time. Perhaps they are some of the God's. I don't know.

Here is a link to some stuff on this. It's a pretty crazy read, but it's interesting.
Credo Mutwa


Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

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I think they are real beings, sort of like aliens, or perhaps humans who achieved natural powers

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hooo-boy.

'nuff said.

{{edit...oops....gotta spell those little words right }}

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 02-14-2003).]

hail mighty hooo-bot

Jason

First off all if you intent to read the bible as from start to end i think you are a hero, since it is hard to understand old fashioned language written by different people in different times and full off methaphors. If you encounter some living rules (and you will) do not forget that those rules are written in a totally different time with totally different problems. Last but not least the bible is not The Thruth. Only a picture of it seen through the eyes from it's writers.

Also you should know that the "old testament" is a book from three religions: Islam, Jewish, Christianity.
it is not equally important to the three religions thou. The Christianity thing only starts at the beginning of the new testament where the other religions go in a different way.

The biggest problem is the interpetation from the bible. Due too different intrepetations, christianity has a lot of different branches like catholic, reformed, greek othodox, koptic etc...And all these groups had wars among them over a lot of years and in different countries. Still the nothern-irish confict is based on differences between the catholic irish and the protestant english. For many years europe has burned through all this.

If you really want to understand christianity you have to read more than only the bible.
You have to read about the templeknights, crusades, the history from europe/isreal/middle-east etc. etc.

If don't understand it don't blame yourself, most people don't. Also you could talk to both a priest and a reverend.

Hereby i want to wish you goodluck both with the bible and with your kid.

Sorry that i could not answer your questions and this lenghty post, but i figured you had to know what you are up to.

<edit > typo's
"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

[This message has been edited by Rinswind 2th (edited 02-14-2003).]

FYI: A "priest" and a "reverend" in Christian denominations refer to exactly the same office. Christian denominations call their clergy by a variety of names, including "pastor", "rector", and "minister"... depends on who you're a part of...

GN - if you're interested in learing about the Biblical basis for the modern Christian faith, read the New Testament, that's what modern Christianity is based on.
The Old Testament is a conglomeration of moral stories and myths that were used in ancient Judea, and are the roots of, as has been said, all three major montheistic religions, and has very little to do with modern Christianity in it's current form.

Christianity has been torn between it's pure spirituality, and the politics of any given time. That's one of the reasons why the US was founded, so that church and state could be separate... (not that it works really well...) It's hard to understand the history of Christianity without also understanding the history of western European civilization as well, since Christianity has played a very large part in that history.

You've taken on a momentous task, to read the Bible from cover to cover. Some of the stories in the Old Testament are actually pretty good reads... Some of them are not. There's a lot of euphamism in the Bible, and a lot of subjective interpretation. Reading it, while certainly worhtwhile as an intellectual pursuit, will probably not help you to "understand" Christianity.
If you are interested in understanding Christianity, my suggestion is to find a denomination which appeals to you, and start attending church each week. Get yourself involved in the sunday school program and really apply yourself to the understanding of it. The best way to understand a religion is to become a part of it. Religion is highly subjective and intensely personal.
As for educating your child, just make sure the kid has enough opportunities to educate him/herself as s/he grows, and make sure you and your spouse keep your minds open to whatever your child wants to do with his/her spiritual life, provided it's not harmful to themselves or others. We are responsible for the upbringing of our children, but ultimately, our children will become individuals with the ability to form their own opinions and ideas regarding the universe. The sum of our responsibility to them then is to provide them proper access to the resources they will require to make those decisions in an informed and intelligent manner... Good luck! You're braver than I am to bring a kid into the world as it is today...

Bodhi - Cell 617

Though I doubt I will actually become a member of any church, I thank you for your suggestions. I am more into a wide range of things, and mainly into my own spirituality, more so than any one religion. I just figured since my child will be growing up in a predominate Christian society, that I should have a good understanding of where those sociatal morals come from. I think I will be more into teaching my child the connectedness of everything, and how all life is made of the same things, and how we are all connected. I don't really know of any religions that practice this, though they all seem to preach it.

As far as the God of the Old Testiment not being the true God, I am pretty convinced this is correct. Then again, I don't even know if there is really a God the creator, so perhaps you would say the God of the Old Testiment is the true God: God the rule maker. I sort of think there is perhaps a God of the universe, like we have a President. But perhaps beyond him/her/whatever, they is a God the creator. I think they are two seperate things.



Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

Then I would simply teach your child that a "creative force" exists in the world, and that many people believe it manifests itself in many different ways. Perhaps you have a relative who is Christian, and would be willing to introduce your child to Christianity for you, if you aren't interested in it yourself...

The fact that the majority of Western countries are Christian probably means that your child will have optimum exposure from outside the home, and you maybe don't need to try so hard to teach it all yourself...



Bodhi - Cell 617

GN - I think you're horrifically overthinking all of this.

=)

You seem to be confusing yourself worse by trying all these odd justifications and explanations...

Just an observation.

Reading the bible with such a huge bias is not going to gain you a whole lot but I would still recommend reading the Gospel of John if you want to understand the core of Christianity. The Old Testament provides very foundational concepts but at least as you read through John you would be asking us questions about those foundations. I really think this would be a more fruitful place for you to begin.

If you continue from cover to cover, then I and I'm sure others will be more than happy to explain things as we understand them. Several of us here have asked the questions you are asking and can offer insights.

But here is just one example of why you're going to get confused if you do so. There is a historical section in the first half of the OT that coincides with the prophetical portion in the last half. If you don't realize the timeline of when the prophets were living in the historical section, then it's very confusing and you just miss out on a lot.

There are actually programs designed for reading through the Bible in one year. I actually taught a class like that once where we went through the whole thing and had outlines of every chapter and how they related to other books and history and such. If you're interested in this sort of thing, I can look into what's available online.

. . : slicePuzzle

"And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, one girl sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time, and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no one would have to get nailed to anything." - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

I see Christianity (and most religion in general, in fact) a lot like the way I see the United States. Both were founded on some of the greatest principles in the world (being nice to people for a change; all men are created equal, etc.) and in their idealized forms are pretty darn amazing. Unfortunately, once actual people start getting involved, it tends to head downhill pretty fast (putting heretics to the sword; all men are created equal... except for you, and you, and those people over there...).

It's not to say that either is irredeemable, it's just makes me sad sometimes to see them not living up to their potential...



Odd behavior; even temperament...

Wang: That's not actually from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy'. Right series, wrong book. It's a quote from 'So Long and Thanks For All The Fish'

Hah.

Yes....People are great things in theory.

In practice, they are altogether different

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Wang: That's not actually from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy'. Right series, wrong book. It's a quote from 'So Long and Thanks For All The Fish'

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Actually, Skaarjj, it's a quote from the BBC Hitchhiker's radio series (at least, that's where I was pulling it from, having listened to it since I was about eight years old). Technically, though, I suppose you are correct, in your own way...

In theory, people are very *not* so nice things.

That is why the cross even came into the matter in the first place.

After the cross, people no longer need be slaves to the not so niceness, but there is nothing forcing that outcome and that is why you get the litany Wangers mentions... (putting heretics to the sword; all men are created equal... except for you, and you, and those people over there...). etc.

Whatever happened to faith. You don't need to hold it up to the light to examine it just believe.

and this:

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There are supposedly people who live in caves all over the planet, who have been alive and seperate from us for a long time. Perhaps they are some of the God's.

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Cooooooo like the Ascended Masters who occupy a giant temple under the Himalyas?

[edit: I'd really like to get into GN's head for day (chisel or can opener?) but I will settle for a deeper explanation of the above - pos. in a separate thread to stop this one spinning out of control]

It still all leaves the Buddhists out in the cold

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Emps, what if your faith hinges upon a historical event? The accuracy of that event can be bolstered or diminished by physical investigations to a certain degree.

For GN regarding some of your original questions: It seems to me that you have misread some of the story. St. Seneca helped clear some of that up. It sounded like you were asking why God had the Hebrews sacrifice their firt-born?!? That's not what happened, please read that part again.

Abraham was the only person I'm aware of that was asked to sacrifice his son by God. But the story clearly shows how God never intended for that to be carried through. There was one other case where Jephthah sacrificed his daughter to God but that was *not* requested by God. You'll find that in Judges.

The biggest mistake people make is to read the OT and force a modern mindset onto it and thereby occlude it's original meaning. You absolutely must have a better understanding of what the text meant to the original authors and readers to properly understand it. This goes for any work of antiquity but so many people seem to gloss right over this most important method.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-15-2003).]

Yea, your right Bug's. I think I was misinterpreting it. When he says sacrifice them to me, he meant something different, I think he meant something along the lines of offer your first born to me out of respect, or to work for him, something like that.

Emp's - If you were in my head, I don't think you would be typing here, but you would be in a hospital staring up at the roof, saying over and over...'what do you want with me?'

Thanks for all the good advice everyone.

I think I will start with the New Testament, I finished the first 3 books of the old testament, and it's time to move on.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

GN, if you have any questions, please feel free to post here or email me.

And, yes, first born belonged to God out of respect. In fact, there was an offering you could perform in the temple in order to buy them back, so to speak. Mary and Joseph actually did this with Jesus as you will see depending on what Gospel you take on.

Thanks Bug's, I will keep that in mind.

I am also reading a really good book at the same time, called Spiritwalker by Hank Wesselman, it's really interesting. I suggest it for anyone interested in spirituality.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

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The blood was a sacrifice not to tell God who were israelites, but who WANTED to be saved. God saved anyone who put lamb's blood over their door and smote the first-born of those who did not. This was merely a sign of faith and not any kind of lacking on God's part.

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ok question....now if god is so perfect, why is that lambs blood is so necessary? he can hear all of us right? so we can just tell him we wanna be saved, right? through prayer and faith, just as a good book says.

That's the way it works *now*. Before Christ's ultimate sacrifice, things were done differently.

but god is suppose to be perfect...cant he make a perfect law from the beggining?

what was he thinking before?

Ruski, we are the ones that have a problem with perfection. When we sin, we separate ourselves from God. *All* of us sin, not one of us is perfect. A really good working definition of sin is "anything that hurts others, hurts yourself, or hurts God".

All of the Law that was given to Moses in the OT was an attempt by God to begin a process that would allow us to come back into a perfect relationship with Him. The Law showed us that we cannot live a perfect life even when we try. Sure some people lead very good lives and help lots of others but nobody gets through life without messing up sometimes. Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Bill C*****n have all fallen short of perfection. Therefore someone has to "make up for" or "pay the price for" our shortcomings.

Christ dealt with the "paying the price for our sins" part. So by accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross, we can now be reconciled to God and not worry about our shortcomings because God sees Christ's perfection instead of our sins. That frees us up to do good works and even more good works because we are no longer slaves to our sinful natures. This is why Christ is *central* and *necessary* to get back to God.

What about in the tower of Babel story, where God sees what great things human can achive, and he decides to split them up and confuse their languages so they do not achive greatness and become like God?

Why would God not want us to be as powerful as possible, why would he try and restrict us and our learnings?

This also goes along with my belief that the God of the bible is not the all seeing, all knowing God.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

Thats what I am trying to understand...God is suppose to be perfect but he is not! according to bible....

its even says in Genesis that he admited his biggest mistake for making a mankind....another wierd thing I see, him changing the laws...the sin was recognized right at the beggining with adam and eve, he could have made this laws as we have today from the begging....but he had another laws why is that he changed everything?

Perfection doesnt make mistakes

Damn double post

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 02-24-2003).]

imo, logic is not necessarily appropriate here...

there are several theories about god:
- he is beyond our understanding,
-- though far be it from me to say he could not manifest as a human, if he so desired.
-- he built us perfect.. in our imperfections.

- he is a child, learning as he goes along.

- some see him as our father, but what child understands the parent?
-- until the child also becomes a parent...

- he gave us free will -
-- though some will argue that it's all fate.

-- he created us in order to see himself.

those are some of the theories i've heard.

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 02-25-2003).]

with the tower of babel it wasn't what the people were trying to achieve, its that they were worshipping their own achievements and accomplishments rather than God.

ruski, you lost me. care to explain a bit more, along with what verses in genesis you're pulling that from? thanks.

chris

Ok look I dont remeber the verse cause got no bible right now ,but its after what adam and eve had done and when they were banished, it said that god felt sorry for creating a mankind......supposedly made a mistake........another thing I find confusing is that god of bible is kinda bypolar or something.....in old testement he is basicly like "you are my bitches and you do what I tell you to do" also the laws of old testement were imperfect...as an exemple "treat your enemy the way he treats you" and "love your neighbor, hate your enemy" something like that...its somewhere in Marks chapters where Jesus was changing the laws they mentioned old laws...basicly making them more meaningfull.

and when Jesus comes the god appears to be diffrent ! he is all loving and so on..bla bla
and basicly Jesus corrects all the laws and stuff....so my question is why couldnt the god made this laws right from beggining? why he changed everything all of sudden...what was he thinking before?


and velvetrose just lke you said those are just theories they dont explain anything....just possibilities

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And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the earth, and they left off building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the earth. - Genesis 11.

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Where does it say anything about them worshiping thier achievements? It just says that the humans were to good, and God did not want them to achieve their full potential.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 02-27-2003).]

You got it gilbert! thast exactly what I want to understand...






[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 02-27-2003).]

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"Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

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actually this could be interpreted that knowing whatever they proposed to do would now be possible for them.. he then made the decision to separate them that they might advance on many levels in different places, rather than the interpretation that he was refusing to allow them to achieve full potential.

[edit- fix wording


[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 02-28-2003).]

thats very helpful.........