Preserved Topic: God of the bible (Page 3 of 3)

I think most of you guys are pretty guilty of generalization on Catholics. Think what you want, but it all boils down to one thing. Protestants make religions. 25,000.00 new sects open up every day all claming to have revelations of true scripture. You
can't even agree on interpretion. I bet Martin Luther is turning in his grave. Total chaos. How tragic. The evil one just loves this.

i find it interesting that you're bouncing back and forth between "we all need to just get along" and "protestants are the ones making things up". notice a few things in the arguments i or anyone else have made, the main one being that no one's said a thing about you or what your personal faith may be, we've commented on things we've noticed about the catholic church in general and patterns and behaviors we've seen there (and led into chances for you to respond, such as my observations on the catholic church population in general missing the point). you, by contrast, decided that anyone who couldn't hack it in the catholic church probably did so because of our oneness with sin. talk about generalizations...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

~Bugs looks down the drain as far as he can see and waves to this thread as it descends into the abyss~

I would still love to participate in another thread making the case for Papal Authority but not if it's going to consist of arguments about how "you" Protestants mucked everything up with that schism thing. I don't consider myself a Protestant by the way so I didn't take that personally.

---Original thread question---

quote:

---

Anyway, what I am asking basically, is how does the definition of God, an all powerful, all seeing being; compare with the God in the bible? What makes you think the Christian God is really a God at all?

---

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

~watches thread and waves with bugs~

yeah, i actually don't consider myself to be protestant either, tho i'm not catholic so for some i guess that's the only alternative.

now that i think about it, 25,000 new christian sects a day sounds like a whole lot too. i'd be interested to know where that figure came from.

and look at GN, trying to bring it back on topic...sheesh...

chris




KAIROSinteractive

quote:

---

looks like some repsondees are schooled by anti-Catholic propaganda

---

And it looks like yours are derived from being spoon-fed pro-catholic propaganda your entire life.

You spoke of "going where you haven't before".

You should try it. =)

Rats! And I really wanted my questions answered...*sigh*

Oh well...bye-bye, thread...

*Watches it disappear down the drain*

ws and bugimus, i started a thread with your questions.

GN - christians, from what i have seen, accept the god of the bible as god on faith or as i learned in a song at a baptist summer school "cause the bible tells me so". (yes, i attended a baptist summer school, my mom thought i needed to expand my horizons )

Velvet Rose

Enlighten me on where in the bible it say the bible is the "pillar & foundation of truth." In the bible I am reading its says, the church is the pillar & foundation of truth and if there is a disagreement to consult the church. What church are they referring to? What is your belief on this?

and that verse would be..?

chris


KAIROSinteractive

You know it's funny. I'm reading through all of this and hearing the reasons I stopped being Catholic in the first place. It's the PRO-Catholic propaganda that turned me off to Catholicism. I was baptised and confirmed in the religion before reaching the age of reason (around 12 years old) and realizing that it doesn't matter which faith you follow as long as you do what every faith boils down to -> Be good to one another and you will be rewarded. This debate about who is right is really a debate about who has the best tasting Dogma. The core of most religions is the same. The rest is semantics and bureaucratic BS. ToMAYto OR ToMAHto... Does it really matter all that much?

GD, Yes it most certainly does matter. Fig and I would argue that you have just typed a subtley stated but hugely significant misconception with "Be good to one another and you will be rewarded". The very same scriptures that both Catholics and non-Catholics hold to be God's word states we are not justified by our works but rather our faith.

Now I agree with you when we descend into bickering about things that are not critical to salvation which is quite a lot of stuff. But we simply cannot yield on core issues of the faith.

jade, I would like to know chapter and verse for what you quoted too. I'm not familiar with which one you're referring to.

Here Paul is instructing Timothy about scripture's authority:

quote:

---

...and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
--2 Timothy 3: 15-17

---

quote:

---

Velvet Rose

Enlighten me on where in the bible it say the bible is the "pillar & foundation of truth." In the bible I am reading its says, the church is the pillar & foundation of truth and if there is a disagreement to consult the church. What church are they referring to? What is your belief on this?

---

rereading this thread, i don't find myself saying that the bible is the pillar & foundation of truth
where in the your bible (i assume you are referring to your "new testament") does it say that the church is the pillar & foundation of truth?

quote:

---

...and if there is a disagreement to consult the church.

---

uh, and what does the church use on which to base it's decisions? if not the bible or christian "new testament" then what? do men (of the church?) make it up based on their own opinions? or perhaps they make the decisions based on the theology left over from the Mythric Mysteries? (those guys who were the foundation of the roman church )

i realized i've asked several questions here, but perhaps you would rather answer them in the catholics and other christians thread, which is shorter than this one

{edit-fix spacing }

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 03-12-2003).]

VR
I know you didnt post that but since you go by "bible only".
I thought you would know.

Check Matthew 18:15-17 & 1 Tim 3:15 about which church they are referrring to since there must be thousands of churchs in the world today. I know some posters think we don't need to go to church and to just be good and avoid evil, so you would be enlighening them on this. Thanks.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, Bug's. The core of the christian faiths is believe in God and Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, the salvation that has been prepared for you and to follow the Ten Commandments. (To put it rather loosely) All of the rest of it is dogma that was added onto a good theological point of view. It turned the theology of christianity into a religion by trying to make it conform to what people wanted it to be rather than seeing that it already conformed to everyone the way it was. I guess where I was headed with my "Be good to each other..." statement is that that is the default if you follow your faith. Basically you can't follow your faith and not be good (or at least try to be good) to everyone else. The statement is still true it is just that the goodness is derived from your faith rather than something else.


GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

What about the commandment:

Honor the Lords day. The 7 th day.

Bugs

quote:

---

The very same scriptures that both Catholics and non-Catholics hold to be God's word states we are not justified by our works but rather our faith.

---

Um, what?

So basically, you can do all sorts of real good things, and if you are not sure that God exists, then you are screwed?

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

Yes. That can happen.

well then it sucks

It's moments like these that convince me our discussions are productive

After all this time of talking about what I believe to be true and what you both believe about things, it is now that I know you have heard and understood a very critical point.

The point is that the NT says a very specific thing about how to gain eternal life and it is not just "doing good works".

Ruski, yes, I know it is a hard teaching but that is what it says and the important thing is for you to know what it says and *then* decide how you want to proceed. You too, GN. I've said before that what is important for us in this forum is to *understand* one another. It's up to each of us to make up our own minds with the information that we all share.

jade:

quote:

---

VR
I know you didnt post that but since you go by "bible only".
I thought you would know.

---

where did i say i was bible only person?

bugimus:

quote:

---

Ruski: So basically, you can do all sorts of real good things, and if you are not sure that God exists, then you are screwed?

Bugimus: Yes. That can happen.

---

so what happens to the hindu, aetheists, gnostics, buddhists etc.? are you saying jesus didn't die for them too? they can go to hell and to hell with them?

velvetrose, it depends on who you ask. According to current Catholic dogma it *is* possible for a Hindu to get to heaven. Many Protestant churches also believe that to be possible. In fact, I believe there are a great number of Christians who really accept Universalism, i.e. that eventually all will be saved.

I cannot in good conscience take that position, however. I believe the New Testament states that those who have never heard about the salvation of Christ are lost. This is of course also the case with anyone who has heard the gospel and rejected it. This is why I believe getting the good news out there is so vitally important. It is why I take this so seriously.

[edit] I just read your words more carefully and I really need to say that I think you know very well that Christ died for *all* humankind. I know you are well versed in the Bible, certainly enough to know that. And please don't tell me that "to hell with them" was in any way meant to imply that I don't die at the thought of that horrible fate for anyone. One *must* be true to what they believe to be reality and if that is what I see written there then you had better believe I'm going to stick with it and *then* deal with the consequences. The goal is to find the truth and then work from there. I'm doing the best I know how and I hope you are doing the same. Part of that process for me is to extend my love and God's love to *all* brothers and sisters in this world, namely, every human being and that is why you are going to see me devoting much of my time and resources to reaching them. [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-13-2003).]

ok, i'll stop laughing and respond to your first point bugs..

"current catholic dogma"?? i heard that all would be saved as a child, but the next year, the nuns announced that was an error. only catholics would be saved. so which *man* made the decision to change catholic dogma.. again ? my reason for leaving the roman church.. so obviously imo, a religion of man, not god.

yes, i have a smattering of knowledge of the bible, but like yourself i appreciate a good discussion and questioning peoples thoughts and opinions to see if they are truly known or merely copy/paste from some sermon or book. i disagree with the proposition that only christians will get to heaven. in point of fact, i am not a christian, but a deist
*walks off giggling*

velvetrose, I'll have to check on this but I think it was Pope Pious IX

Deist eh? How very interesting, thanks for sharing that. I was pretty sure you didn't consider yourself a Xian but I would not have guessed deist. So are you kind of the First Cause winding up the clock of the universe and letting go type of deist? or some other variation I've not heard of? Just curious.

Actually, velvetrose made a very good point, indirectly, and one that has bothered me about most of the major religions - where are the words of the 'holy women'?

Though the Bible does mention women (and often, actually), there are no holy writs from women to be found!. Now, why is this? Is it because, at the time that most of the Major religions were founded, that women were very repressed? And why is Eve portraited in the Bible as the 'reason' for the seduction? Meaning, ok, the serpent really did the seduction of Eve, yes, but Eve went along, and convinced poor ol' dumb Adam, the good sot that he was, to eat the apple, as well...which really laid the 'fault' at the feet of women.

Throughout history, we see this mindset being repeated, based on what is in the Bible...and other Holy Works, as well. Now, if these works are really 'divinely inspired' by a higher being, then why all the hostility to women? I just don't buy that. That's a patriachal view, plain and simple. Before the Major religions, we see that women were much more respected...and even in positions of power, and influence. Since the 'birth' of Christianity, we see a great reduction of this, concerning women, and the empowering of men.

Now, wouldn't a Higher Being tend to treat both sexes as equal?

Talking about who does not reponds to post of supposedly I am guilt of.
What happened pillar & foundation of truth, etc.
No response????

In all 12 years in catholic school, the nuns & priest never told me that only catholics are going to heaven. All are welcome at the table of the father in heaven.

And who did God appoint judge and jury of who is saved and who isn't. Last I read Jesus Christ the King sits at the right hand of his father and he is the supreme judge. If he determines that someone who never read his (how to book)
can go in, their in. Its his perrogative. Not any one earthly beings. Yes!! Jesus rules.

In all my years in catholic schooling, no priest or nun or lay person every said only catholics go to heaven. That is not a catholic belief.
Another misconception about catholics.

They preach all are welcome at the fathers table. They cannont determine who is saved and who is not saved. Only Jesus Christ, who sits at the right hand of the father is sole judge and jury. And if Jesus determines & lets in a soul that even though this soul has never opened up the sacred (how too) book, they are in. Its his perrogative.
He is God.

velvetrose, a Catholic friend helped me track down the reference about "current Catholic dogma" on who gets in:

Here's what Pope Pius IX said in 1854:

quote:

---

...we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord.

---

...and later in 1863:

quote:

---

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

---

Jade, this is for you, please read this carefully, please! I don't appreciate spending lots of time typing and having people ignore it. It's extremely frustrating. You said above:

quote:

---

What happened pillar & foundation of truth, etc. No response????

---

I *did* respond!!!

I will repeat it here because you obviously missed it.

quote:

---

jade, I would like to know chapter and verse for what you quoted too. I'm not familiar with which one you're referring to.

Here Paul is instructing Timothy about scripture's authority:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
--2 Timothy 3: 15-17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

If you don't mind, I would appreciate a response to this, thank you.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-13-2003).]

there was a document from the pope a few years ago that was greatly misintepreted (supposedly) that talked about salvation and truths contained in other denominations and religions. the pope's clarifications said something to the effect of that other Christian churches contain "precious elements of salvation" and that "salvation is not denied to non-Christians." my views on this are more in line with what bugs had to say, but in the end its not really up to me.

jade, the church that christ refers to is the christian church that existed at that time, the gathering of believers that took place. peter may have been given some authority in that early church by christ, but repeated statements throughout scripture (many by jesus himself) reinforce that christ is the cornerstone of the church, its head, and the only foundation (1 Cor 3:11, Col 1:18, Matt 28:18). a statement i found in some reading on the subject was catholics using the term "One fold and one shepherd" in referring to the pope and the catholic church. jesus calls himself the shepherd and the one shepherd tending his father's flock in John 10. seems a bit contradictory to me.

one other fact i found that was interesting. peter never refers to himself as the pope, is referred to as the pope, or settles any matter by his position in the NT. he actually talks about how parts of paul's writings are hard to understand. i'd think that if peter were in charge of things he would've been doing a lot more writing and making decisions and have made his authority known, wouldn't you?

i'll leave it with this:

quote:

---

Now there arose a dispute among them, which of them was reputed to be the greatest. But he said to them, 'The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and they who exercise authority over them are called Benefactors. But not so with you. On the contrary, let him who is greatest among you become as the youngest, and him who is chief as the servant.' (Luke 22:24-26)

---

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Not to worry, Jesus Christ has come to save us all!!!

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

thanks bugs. the misconception on my part, stems directly from what i was taught as a child by a nun in sunday school. that information was known not only where i learned it, but also at the other church i attended after my family moved to a different neighborhool. it makes me wonder what other info passed down, by those who should know (nuns, priests), is also contradictory to church dogma.

jade:

quote:

---

What about the commandment:

Honor the Lords day. The 7 th day.

---

the 7th day is saturday.. why do catholics and most other christians celebrate on the 8th day-sunday?

There seems to be a bit of confusion about these days.

The "Lord's Day" is Sunday, the 1st day of the week. Christians usually attend church on this day because Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week. This is not a requirement but we do it because the earliest Xians did, at least that's why I do it. But our church has just begun Thursday night service for those who think attending church on Sunday is wang.

The 7th day is not called the Lord's day but rather the Sabbath. According to Jewish law and as spelled out in the 10 commandments, God's people were to keep the Sabbath holy. It was and still is to be a day of rest.

While I think it is an excellent tradition to maintain I do not think it is required of gentile christians to strictly abstain from work on the Sabbath.

I must say, we haven't had any threads on religion like these for awhile...

Great stuff everyone! Keep it up!!

*goes back to reading*

In ref to the Lords Day.

Wasn't it when Constantine was in power and since he did a a lot for the Christians in the way on honoring Christ call it "Sun" day, since he believed
it was the God of the Christians that helped him win a battle.

He was a pagan b-4. But he had that vision of the Cross in the sky with the sun(?) I believe and it was in the form of a cross and he had that cross put on all his armies sheilds. He won the battle he felt with the God of the Christians.

And for that reason he converted to Christianity, And this being the reasson why most all Christians worship on Sunday as of today.

i believe the 7th day adventists still worship on saturday.. not sure which others..