Preserved Topic: God of the bible (Page 2 of 3)

Uh, that's called 'posting an opinion' Ruski.

Does her post have to somehow be helpful to you??

Take a look at your own track record before criticising other people's helpfulness ruski...

[edit- rereading this thread, i see it is gilbert who posted the original question and my answers are mainly directed at him and his wanting to understand christian thinking.. reworking my response, back in a sec

back ...
gilbert - i posted above some of the different viewpoints on the naure of god.. the people who hold those different opinions will have different views on how different portions of the bible will be translated.

i applaud your reading the bible in order to understand for yourself. just as no one apologizes for their views on god, neither will you once you have read the bible. in fact ( ), once you have finished, you may find yourself participating in the age old tradition of debating just what different bible passages mean!

Ruski... when you ask a question about the bible or god, you are going to get opinions! opinions on why he did what he did, how he did what he did and what the bible means and how it should be interpreted..

be aware that the bible is The Book of 3 major religions:
one religion holds to the bible as written and have their thoughts on it's meaning in separate texts - texts which they do not consider part of the bible itself.

a second religion has renamed the bible as "The Old Testament" and put together a new book (consisting of records, letters, other stuff) they call the "New Testament." they consider both books as the Bible.

the third religion retains the bible, but call it the "Old Book" and they have a second book written by one of their prophets, called the "Koran." they follow their second book more religiously as they view the old book as valid, but outdated.

the people here who respond to your questions are sharing their honest opinions with you - just as any religious would... none seek to confuse or mislead you, but they share their beliefs as (according to how) they understand why he did what he did and what they understand to be the meaning/translation of what is written in the bible.

[edit - clarification]
[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 03-01-2003).]

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 03-01-2003).]

in answer to the original question

quote:

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Anyway, what I am asking basically, is how does the definition of God, an all powerful, all seeing being; compare with the God in the bible? What makes you think the Christian God is really a God at all?

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i offer the following link for your perusal

http://www.diakrisis.org/known_by_God.htm

Yo DL and velvetros dont get me wrong and please I didnt insult her or anything...that sentence was suppose to go to "god" as he divided us and supposedly made us speak diffrent languages....so sorry if you missunderstood me....but to me it seems it wasnt helpful at all

ohh and by the way!

quote:

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Though there are many paths
At the foot of the mountain
All those who reach the top
See the same moon.

---

hehe I guess this should relieve many people

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-02-2003).]

if you're going to quote scripture you really need to not just post selected parts of it, quite a good way to create your own interpretations by taking things out of context. we're in genesis 11 for those playing along at home:

quote:

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1 Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3 Then they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

---

and from 'John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible', the clearest explanation i found:

quote:

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Some think they intended hereby to secure themselves against the waters of another flood, but if they had, they would have chosen to build upon a mountain rather than upon a plain. But two things it seems they aimed at in building.

1. To make them a name: they would do something to be talked of by posterity. But they could not gain this point; for we do not find in any history the name of so much as one of these Babel - builders. Philo Judeus saith they engraved every one his name upon a brick; yet neither did that serve their purpose.
2. They did it to prevent their dispersion; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth - It was done (saith Josephus) in disobedience to that command, Genesis 9:1, replenish the earth. God orders them to scatter. No, say they, we will live and die together. In order hereunto they engage themselves and one another in this vast undertaking. That they might unite in one glorious empire, they resolve to build this city and tower, to be the metropolis of their kingdom, and the center of their unity.

---

chris

[This message has been edited by Fig (edited 03-03-2003).]

Irregardless of how it is explained, it is still cruel. Not an act of an all-powerful, all-knowing being, that is outside of the Timestream...or a just being, at that. The people were supposed to scatter? Well, with a centralized place (and the certainty that they could accomplish everything they desired), populating the Earth would have been easy. But that's not my Plan, says God...sounds like Mr. Bush, if you ask me...and destroys their land and culture, and scatters them...ok...

And as far as I know, Archeologists have found no evidence of Babbel. I tend to think that this is a fairy tale, a way of explaining why there are so many languages.


WebShaman

oh please.. do not put bush and god in the same sentence..
well, maybe... now that you did, it makes me wonder if bush does see himself in that role

not meaning to pick on WS, but i've noticed something similar to his response in a lot of discussions i've had about the bible and christianity:

1. someone makes a comment saying how something was done for no reason or how God did something that was "fill-in-term-of-choice-here".
2. an explanation, one that may not necessarily be agreed with from an individual's point of view but one that has some basis (i.e. God said not to do "x" and they did it anyway) is given.
3. the response of "well, i still don't agree with that happening" results.

in other words, ok, according to what we know there may be some basis (at least in context, throwing whatever you may believe of the book's truth out the window for the moment), but i still don't like it. um, that's nice. i don't agree with a lot of what my parents did, but they still did it. not liking something doesn't mean it didn't/couldn't happen. i'm not offering this little blurb of scripture or anything else as "proof" of God, just observing a pattern i've seen.

whatever the case, i came to to the realization a while back that while i'm a fairly intelligent guy, i doubt i'm at the level that an omnipotent creator would be. i have lots of ideas on the way the world should work and how i would've done things, but that's completely irrelevant to the way things happen now and have happened in the past. i have things aside from scripture that are my basis for believing God is real and the true God, and while scripture supports what i believe there are things i've read that i find odd, weird, or straight up doubt. but my not agreeing with something doesn't make it not true.

chris

Well its your oppinion! live with it

Those are WS oppinions he will live with them!

now the only thing bothers me alot about christianity is that I am really getting tired of hearing how peopel will go to hell bla bla bla, and that I am possesed by the devil bla bla...those things make me simply want to stay away from religeons...it seems they are scaring people to attract the worshipers...[IMHO]...I really dont know...but thats the way it seems

Ruski: I would really like to know who told you, you were possesed by the devil, and meant it in a serious sense, that seems quite absurd. Also, just a thought, I have noticed that your posts come off condescending, like you only have criticism for other people. I don't see how you can be in a position to give advise to everyone else, when you seem so closed minded, and truly, It doesn't seem as if you have read the bible [recently?], so I come to wonder if you even know what you are talking about. Just an observation.

As for speaking of hell, going to hell is a risk you take by embracing a religion. You see, if you commit yourself to a religion, it is believed that you will follow the rules layed down for you. In return you would be rewared with salvation (I am speaking from a Christian point of view here). Salvation, is somthing that you would strive to achieve, and seek out. Hell is the opposite, when you have somthing so awesome as salvation, you have to have a place to put people, that do not meet requirements. In my personal opinion hell doesn't exist, but if you look into the Catholic faith, they have a place called Limbo, or Purgatory. It serves as a waiting place, or a proving grounds, you will stay there for all eternity, or until you have proven yourself worthy to enter the kingdom of God (according to the bible). So, more or less wrapping this up... for all the good places you have in the world, it seems that there would be an opposite. "for every black there is a white" so to speak.

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

Hey welcome to asylum...and please get to know people before you judge them...since you are new here ! welcome anyway

Yes man I am Catholic and yes I do read bible pretty much everyday...I moved to Puerto Rico and I am in christian school...these people are pretty much against everything since I have been raised in openminded community and I respect and even like alot of other beliefes like buddism, and evolution and so on. I started to have doubts about my religeon, so I questioned several teachers...my english teacher said that satan is confusing me and so on...its seems to be very repetitive and I am, getting tired of it....its just seems I cannt reason with people who are simply fanatics....anything that doesnt match with their beliefe seems evil to them...such as zodiac stuff.......well keep in mind I am calm


[edit]I agree with you about that yin and yan stuff ...pretty much like it myself, but christians say its against their beliefes...since god is supposed to be perfectly good and satan perfectly evil[/edit]

Though there are many path
to the mountain.
Those who reach the top
see the same moon.

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-05-2003).]

Fig - I understand your point of view there, and trust me - there are as plenty similarly of frustrating things from this side of the fence as well

One issue I have -

quote:

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that while i'm a fairly intelligent guy, i doubt i'm at the level that an omnipotent creator would be

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Well sure. But the pitfall of that line is that anything can be chalked up as "oh, that's just how god works - don't question it".

And while I'm not saying that's how I see you acting, I do far too often see/hear that used to fill in the blanks.

{{edit - Ruski: one very important thing fo you to understand is that you can't simply lump anyone christian together into one group and postulate on what you deem to be their beliefs.

For starters, there are far too many sects of christianity to do that, and there is a big divide between the generic lip-service-christian sheep and the more intellectual breed that you tend to find (such as Bugimus and Fig).



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-05-2003).]

I wish I met them in real life

Ruski, I know exactly the kind of people you are dealing with. I've met them too and I've had disagreements with them on many occasion. Now, as Christians, I still consider them brothers and sisters but that doesn't mean we all agree on everything. The family of God is made up of people just like you and me and none of us are perfect and there are always going to be differences of interpretation on different issues.

Fig

quote:

---

not meaning to pick on WS, but i've noticed something similar to his response in a lot of discussions i've had about the bible and christianity:

1. someone makes a comment saying how something was done for no reason or how God did something that was "fill-in-term-of-choice-here".
2. an explanation, one that may not necessarily be agreed with from an individual's point of view but one that has some basis (i.e. God said not to do "x" and they did it anyway) is given.
3. the response of "well, i still don't agree with that happening" results.

in other words, ok, according to what we know there may be some basis (at least in context, throwing whatever you may believe of the book's truth out the window for the moment), but i still don't like it. um, that's nice. i don't agree with a lot of what my parents did, but they still did it. not liking something doesn't mean it didn't/couldn't happen. i'm not offering this little blurb of scripture or anything else as "proof" of God, just observing a pattern i've seen

-- Fig

---

Beliefs differ...I respect your belief, so give a little back. When I post my opinion, it is exactly that, an opinion. So too, are your posts. While we may agree, or disagree, that, in and of itself, is irrelevant. It is mainly of how one chooses to do this.

But I believe that the topic was 'God of the Bible'...and my comment was based on that. In the Old testament, God demonstrates some pretty irky behavior, for such a supreme being (my opinion). Later (New Testament), it is portaited a bit more 'Godly'.

That you believe in God is your own personal choice. I'm sure you have your reasons, and I'm sure they are good ones. But be aware, that my beliefs are also so. Somehow, I get the impression that you may feel 'under attack' by my opinions...if so, please relax...I certainly am not interested in attacking you, and in no way, shape, or form, intended to. I believe there is more than enough room, for both beliefs to co-exist.

sorry, WS, re-reading my post it came off as more confrontational/offended than i intended. quite the contrary, you're a knowledgable guy and i very much respect your opinions and beliefs on things, and i definitely enjoy hearing them as they often make me consider aspects i've never thought about before. definitely room for more than one opinion, i'm glad yours is here as well as others.

DL, totally agreed. i think the point that people stop doubting and start blindly accepting, no matter what their beliefs, is the point you really need to step back and evaluate what you mean to "believe" something.

chris

Thanks velvetrose and Fig for that info, especially that translation of what the script is about.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

no problem GN. glad i could add something you found useful.
an additional note: not only is the translation sometimes confusing, but the original text is sometimes a puzzle since it was written with no punctuation or spacing.. as an example, thelordisnowhere could be interpreted two ways: the lord is now here or the lord is no where. translators had to deal with dual possibilities on many occasions <- discovered that aspect while watching a documentary on the dead sea scrolls

That's pretty interesting, thelordisnowhere.

Maybe it's really all piglatin... thel ord isn owh ere.

Cell 816 ~ teamEarth ~ Asylum Quotes

LOL, nah, though the biblical scholars (commissioned by King James), may have felt that way as they translated from the greek into english

interesting stuff vevletrose. and glad to help GN

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Hi. Just read thru responses. And my point of view is
we should just learn to get along. All mainstream religions are all in harmony with each other. Respecting ones beliefs is being a true Christian

I for one am a Catholic who is so in love with the my faith and all its treasures. I am not forced to believe
in it . Every day I am in awe of the wonders of truth
and its mystical presence in my life.

Jade

Welcome to the Asylum, Jade

Make sure to read the :FAQ:

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-10-2003).]

You know Catholics are not like bible toting evangelical protestants, but we are Christinas too. We don't go around quoting Scripture. While the bible is sacred scripture to us, its not all there is for us in terms of our faith. God of the Bible in OT/NT to me is a divine presence written by storytellers to let us know who God was in their time. And what his actions were in that we could know him. And to me, whats more important the story itself or the message its trying to convey.

Jade

Umm.... ok. But I'm not sure who you were just responding to there.

You might find this thread interesting http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000736.html

I summed up the differences in a very short sentence there and I would love to know whether or not you agree as a Roman Catholic.

ohh I just got a random question. why nakedness is bad? acording to bible?

To tell you the truth, looks like some repsondees are schooled by anti-Catholic propaganda. (Most anti-Cathoics are Fundamental Baptist.) I read what I usually hear from people who are ignorant of what Catholicism really is. If you really want to know what CC is about, start out by reading the history of Christianity or the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That way all would be better informed on what the Catholic faith is. We are not a bible church. In that, we don't depend on the bible as the sole basis for our faith (Sola Scriptura). There are so many spiritual externals that make up the Body of Christ, that even though if I lived to be 500 yrs old I still wouldn't grasp the total beauty of the treasures of the faith. To me its like you find this key that opens up a treasure and in it you find the most beautiful gems and each gem is more awesome than the last and the greatest part of it is that the treasure box never empties.
I know I am getting carried away. But thats how I see my quest for holiness.
(So sorry I was on the other chat room and was writing in reference to it) Jade.

interesting...not sure if i'm schooled by anti-catholic propaganda or not i'm all about learning to get along btw, but for the most part other churches aren't the ones claiming that only they are "right", that would be the catholic church's job

i could personally give a flip what church or denomination you profess if you "get it". that is, if you understand and practice a lifestyle that understands christ as your personal savior. many in any number or churches never seem to grasp that, but i've found the catholic church seems to make it easier to get by and feel like you're ok. go to church every sunday, confession occasionally, get baptized and confirmed and heaven, here i come. is that what's it all actually about? no, and i'm not saying it is in the least. problem is that the a large percentage of the general catholic populace doesn't realize that. there absolutely are deep meanings and awesome symbolism in the catholic church, but that's been lost and reduced to a series of repetitive events for most people, and that's really unfortunate.

i have mixed feelings on the issue of sola scriptura, there's definitely value in tradition but the problem arrives when the tradition supercedes what it represented in the first place. its the additional required elements and misconceptions that contradict the bible that i have more of a problem with. the apostles and saints weren't superheroes; they were ordinary people who screwed up (often in fact), it was God working thru them that made them so amazing but that's lost for sight of the person. peter's own stories involved hundreds and even thousands at times that "believed and were saved", they weren't required to take six weeks of classes and participate in a ceremony to see if the church thought they were worthy of heaven. i don't consider being saved by grace debatable if you're someone considering themselves christian of any flavor.

the biggest thing i notice in catholic vs protestant churches is the lack of transformation. i'm sure events do occur, but i know a number of people personally who've had their lives dramatically changed after finding christ, been set free from addictions, healed, etc. in just the church i attend, not to mention countless stories i've heard from others. that's the kind of God i want to and do serve, an active working God; otherwise i don't really see the point.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Lets say,

Its seems some Christians want to dictate the way God should come to them, rather than accept the way he chooses to come to them.
Christianity is total submission. Did you shop around for a religion that fits your lifestyle & comfort. One that says" I can commit adultry tomorrow since I am already saved". Who wouldn't want to be in a sect like that. How easy.
Maybe you have a problem with an authoritive church. Even the US Goverment has laws that govern us and keeps us in order or we would have total chaos. Some Catholics do leave the Church. Its too hard for them to stay Catholic. I agree. And its usually because they have sinned and become one with the sin. Since they feel outside the church, they rebel against it to make them feel ok with what ever sin they might have
committed. The join another church and usually become very vocal anti-catholic.

Jade

I have never been a member of the Roman Catholic church. I have been a follower of Christ since I was 10 years old though.

I believe the Bible should be adhered to as closely as possible when speaking about authority. It is only through a clear and disciplined approach to studying the scripture that I believe we can speak for God.

I have some serious disagreements with Roman Catholic doctrine based on what I see in the Bible. I am not "anti-Catholic" in the sense that I am out to bash any Catholic I come across but I am interested in discussing certain problems I see with their approach to God.

Before you respond, I should point out that I've had many a discussion with Catholic friends of mine and I hold no ill will toward them or you for being Catholic. I am only interested in discussing these differences in hopes of furthering a respect for each side and hopefully bringing some ideas into play that some have never considered. I'll let the Holy Spirit do His job as He is much better at convicting the heart than I am

mhmm...interesting points jade. care to try another post, this time actually adressing some of the points i made (which you'll note actually reinforce that i believe much of their original intent within the catholic church) rather than bashing my presumed beliefs, background, and lifestyle? thanks.

bugs and i share pretty similar views btw, with a few minor exceptions.
chris


KAIROSinteractive

I was baptized a Roman Catholic when I was 3 months old. And have been affiliated with Ministry since I was a teenager many years ago . I am no theoloigan, but I read about my faith constantly. The Spirit draws me onward to search just like you. Protestantism & Catholicism have more in common that not. Its a shame that what divides us is how we interpret words that are suppose to make us one body, one spirit, one church.

Out
Jade

Jade.

Ok Chris I will quit bashing. Sorry. Give me a point in particular and I will respond on the subject. Where? Sacraments, Virgin Mary, Saints,
Intercession, Purgatory, Salvation, Born Again,
Infallibility of Pope, Papal Authority, Bible Alone?
etc,, I am open or discussion. Be ready to go where you haven't before.

I have a request for you. Why don't you make a good case for Papal Authority? I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about that. Perhaps another member here could benefit from such a discussion as she asked about differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

If you feel inclined to make a case for it, then please start a new thread on that topic and I'll be glad to join in.

And please don't asume too much about us here. What you said to Fig was very presumptuous and I seriously doubt he fits what you envisioned about him. Thanks in advance

I am not being personal. Just truthful. I presume nothing. If we are Christians (which some sect don't believe Catholics are) we are brothers & sisters in the divinity of Christ. Family. Right? Ok. Papal Authority. My favorite subject. It will have to be tomorrow. I need to get some zzzzz.

Jade.

I have a question about the Catholic Bible. If you aren't supposed to add/subrarct/change the Biblical text, then how come they add on the Apocrypha (I think, right?). I mean, I thought that those weren't actually books of the Bible, but kinda like commentary and theology.

Isn't this contradictary, though?

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 03-10-2003).]

*smacks jade with a frozen fish*

you presume nothing? i was raised catholic and did not leave the church because i "sinned and become one with the sin," nor because i rebeled "against it to make them {me} feel ok with what ever sin they might have committed". hello? you are being presumptuous, did you notice? whatever argument you present here, kindly remember that you are not the only catholic trained person on this forum.. think before you post, my dear. and as the saying goes, don't judge others, until you've walked a mile in their mocassins.

^^^^ very good advice, I must say.

I have a question, concerning the creation of Angels, and the war of the heavens (before the creation of Mankind). What exactly happened, and where is it explained? Do Angels have free will? And exactly what are Angels?


WebShaman

jade: As velvetrose has said you seem to be making some sweeping generalisations - I do love this though:

quote:

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Some Catholics do leave the Church. Its too hard for them to stay Catholic. I agree. And its usually because they have sinned and become one with the sin. Since they feel outside the church, they rebel against it to make them feel ok with what ever sin they might have committed.

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I come from a big, devout Irish Catholic family (there are still a couple who drive all over the area for the one Latin mass) and was baptised (in the diocese of Jerusalem no less) and confirmed. I suspect I stopped going to mass long before I got any decent sinning under my belt (or above) and it was more due to my concerns about the existence of a God, my dislike of organised religions (although I always thought the ceremonial aspects always had other churches beat), the corrpution of the Churches power over the centuries, etc.

and this:

quote:

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And have been affiliated with Ministry since I was a teenager many years ago.

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Well give my regards to Al Jourgensen

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor