Topic awaiting preservation: Girls and Christianity... Uh oh. (Page 1 of 2)

Ok, one of my X's whom is still my friend, and once was an Atheist, came to me today. She told me she had become a Christian, again... "Why on earth?" I asked. She told me to follow her to her locker, and she opened it up, low and behold... Another book revealing evidence of God.

*smack*

My first thought was "You brought me back for this?" But then I had to remember who I was talking to. She begged me to read it... So I agreed to read it.

So here I am. With another book. Proving Gods existance...

Pretty interesting actually... Except it hasn't yet proven God's existance, at least not to me. Something that cought my attention in particular were testimonies given by Doctors and their patients. Appearantly these people had died for a few seconds/minutes and then came to. They told their doctors several stories about how they felt centered in a plain of bliss and they were on what appeared to be an operating table, with someone examining their heart. It kind of reminded me of the old Egyption theory of afterlife, you know, it's weighed to see whether or not you're a good person? I remember about a year ago, my step mother had some company over when I was in Florida and whilst having a conversation about Faith, my step mothers friend butted in and she explained how she was in a terrible car accident and right before a helicopter lifted her and her friends bodies up from the car. She said an Angel appeared by her shoulder and told her that she was going to be ok. After hearing her story about how she almost died, I kind of explained to her that, because of her faith and the given position of death she was in, that her own disillusioned mind created that Angel there as an entity of her own, to comfort her. Granted that it saved her life, it was still an illusion.

So I'm here now, reading this book. And I am yet to find proof, but there's more! Quote from the book:

quote:

---

The very collapse of Communism belongs to what I would call the present postsecular moment, for human spirituality okayed a unique and pivotal role in Communism's defeat.

---

He's using politics and historic war to prove God's existence. But his examples are less than backed up. He's just claiming things out of the blue. I really don't know what to tell this girl when I talk to her again...


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

You say to her the only polite, appropriate thing there is to say:
"Thank you, for sharing this with me."
Then you move on with your life in whichever direction you choose.

Tell her that you're an idiot too.

Now before someone takes this as me attacking the little goof, read on:

People believe whatever they choose. Proof has very little to do with what you will choose to believe. It's just an inherent feeling that you want to move in that direction. If you think that trying to rationalize with her will work, then you're being foolish. She has to slowly understand on her own where her thoughts are coming from.

Your beliefs are probably no more rooted in "fact" than anyone else's...you just choose to believe that YOUR facts are more factual than THEIR facts. Dig?

Perspective.

So tell her that it was a nice book, but not your cup of tea...then move on.

If you haven't noticed, you're on a search for proof, which is just a sham for your hunt to disprove. Belief is...belief. Learn your own way.

---

Note: mobrul...stop hanging out in my cortex.

Being an atheist can be a scary business as you have to face the possibility that this is the only life you have and when you are gone that is it. Its a lose/lose situation - if you are right you lose/if you are wrong then you could also lose (depending on God's sense of humour). I have always thought that you might as well believe in some kind of God if it makes you happy as it might make life more bearable (its just never really washed with me) - if she finds comfort from it then thats nice.

She hasn't asked you to disprove the book and in some ways it doesn't matter as she has probably been looking for an excuse/justification for her to follow her feelings (belief/disbelief isn't an on/off switch).

I'm actually unsure what the point of the thread is really - if you want to discuss Near Death Experiences (NDE) then that is cool but if you just want to know why she found comfort in a book you can see through then why not talk to her about it rather than analyse the book.

[edit: From the tone of other threads I do sometimes wonder if you are also looking for something similar?]

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Ok I compltly disagree about that comunist part...its very clear how communism collapsed without god or whatever...most poeple who lived in those countries including me simply didnt like the government wanted more leagal rights and so on...also government was spending too much money on military than economy....the person who started bringing down comunism wasnt christian or whatever...simply a man with brains who understand peoples feelings...Gorbachev...permited more rights gave nations its independents


Now about those seeing stuff.....jeez....some guy in 10th grade says he sees ghosts at home and all this stuff....its just an illusion.....since I think the brain is such a powerful thing it can make anything happen to you, this is what brings us confusion, illusion and the rest of the things...


as what you should say to a girl...morbule and DG has an answear... dont judge others and you are not gonna be judged....respect other beliefes no metter what...since not all people can be atheists...everyone has diffrent interests and you should respect them, just move on with your life and do what you think is right

...what you think is right.

That is where I start to get interested. I'm dying to know what book it is... do tell!

[edit]great sig, Ruski![/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-27-2003).]

Yes, me too (want to know what book it is).

If you're looking for a book "...more rooted in fact," though, that would be harder to disprove (unless your scared...uhoh ), I'd suggest reading Josh McDowells "Evidence that Demands a Verdict," and "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict." Look over some occult books too, they do a pretty good job of supporting the fact that there actually is "...someone out there."

The book doesn't sound like a "proof" book, more like a book that somebody who was a "New Christian" or something would read. More out of self-interest than out of a need to prove God's existance.

quote:

---

Tell her that you're an idiot too.

---

Next time I see her, I'll be sure to tell her that you're an idiot.
Seriously, why do you even bother wasting time with me these days DG?

The book is called "God The Evidence" and subtited "The Reconciliation of Faith and Reason in a Postsecular World."

There you are


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

Thanks very much for the title, I'm going to look into that book and get back to you on it.

And you should be glad DG "wasted" some of his time on you and I think if you reread his post, you will see he offered you some very poignant insight

insider - what DG said wasn't meant to be insulting. however, with your attitude and entirely stupid response, you could safely assume that his next post in this thread could be.

people here have decided to not make the assumption that every time you post, you're doing little more than wasting bandwidth - and rightly so.

so, why don't you decide to avoid the assumption that every time peter responds to you, he's cutting you down?

quote:

---

Tell her that you're an idiot too.
Now BEFORE someone takes this as me attacking the little goof, READ ON:

---

(formatting altered - who knows, maybe it'll help!)

heeeeeere's context!

sure, he could have said:
"bring her the book back, and inform her that one who forms their beliefs as a result of well presented evidence is somewhat foolhardy, and may well find themselves in turmoil when presented with well presented evidence arguing to the contrary."

- but you wouldn't have understood that either, would you?

i doubt that peter would care in the slightest, but for your sake, insider - read his post, for crying out loud. Don't assume - you'll just make an arse out of you and... well, you'll make an arse out of yourself.





[This message has been edited by reitsma (edited 02-28-2003).]

The better question, insider, is why do *you* bother with posting these silly ass things, and then still manage to get surprised and bothered when someone posts something like that?

And why do you never bother to find the actual message in someone's post?

Why must you only focus on what you percieve as injustice to you?

See the pattern forming here?

There are somethings I really need to get off my chest.

First off. I didn't take it as an insult. If anything I consider it a blessing he wasts time with me, I just wondered why because everything he has to say to me is negative.

Second, you all never ever stopped with the assumption. You can't look at my posts without automatically putting yourself into "dumbass kid" mindset.

Peter, I think you're cool, you're a great artist. It's a shame I fucked it up from the beginning and didn't get to know you right. I really wish that you would stop talking to me all together. You emphasize on me being "little" and "a kid" and "ignorant" only because you know, I know, and everyone else knows, that no one will question your authority because, you're you. The infamous DarkGarden, no one gets in your way. It's kind of sad that you and DL never, ever, are wrong.

Reitsma, formerly bunchapixels right? Nice to see that you've actually noticed me. I don't really know you at all. I don't have much to say really... But, I wish you would look at this thread, and then look at my post, and then look at it again... Do you really think I took DG's as an insult? Do you really think that I didn't understand what DG posted?

DL-44, you're really a fucking tool. I appriciate all the times you've helped me and shit, but you're just fucking insane. I find it absolutely hilarious that several people mentioned quality and quantity in your 5k thread. Look at your post, does it look like quality? Really? Does it? I didn't think so. I hope you realize that about 5% of your posts are just bashing me, you stupid fuck. Everytime I see you and DG post in a thread it's a riot to me. He's like your butt buddy. The way you two get along is amazing... It's like DG will say something, but then he'll make it more illusive to appear like he's a super genius, and then you come along and back up everything he says even though it makes no relevance to the thread AT ALL! And to add on to that... You're never ever wrong! Ever! Anytime someone makes some kind of accusation towards you, you come back and flame the hell out of them, trying to make them feel stupid because you obviously don't like being insulted! You obviously don't like someone to stand in your way, you like the image of a super human who is always right and is entitled to anything he does or says. And you tell me to grow some skin? Grow the fuck up you stupid ass. You're a fucking hypocrite, calling me immature. If you really were mature you wouldn't bother flaming the hell out of me for your own mental compensation. You're the one following my posts, not vice versa. Jesus fucking CHRIST. Learn to fucking swim! I'm not doubting your intelligence or your ability, but you're so fucking boastful it's simply amazing! It's like everytime you post it's a fucking innuendo that you're always right! You purposely flame me, I think you like that image... Get the fuck out of my head, tool.

Please, read what I just said, then go back and read it again. Then one more time to make sure you understood everything I said. And don't come back to counter-flame me or whatever it is that you do, you'd only be proving my words.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

Why do I bother?

In the hope that someone else reading the thread might glean something from it. I gave up on you having any ability to learn whatsoever a long time ago.


As for your sexual innuendos as to the preferences of anyone involved in this thread, it doesn't show your age, it shows your latent tendencies, your fears, and your immaturity. It's not powerful, it's sad. That's a weakening structure. Your entire argument just undermined not only your post, but the credibility that you might have had with anyone reading this thread who didn't know your past history.

The word you're looking for is elusive...and yet you still seem to be using it wrong. I make a point as blatantly as possible and it soars over your head. I try to be subtle to avoid your tears, and it soras over your head. Did you ever think that the posts aren't the things that are obscured, it's just that you're not intelligent enough to understand them? It's a foolish man who assumes the rest of the world is to blame for his confusion.

Do you take this as a flame? I'm sure you do. It's impossible to read more than surface structure when you can't comprehend the undertones. These lines aren't so thick though, read between them. Take what you can from it, not just what you want. Your reaction this time seems to stem from me telling you that your way isn't THE WAY. Poor baby. We all face that fact at some point. Stop hunting for everyone else to be right, worry about your own shit. You play the fool so well and then get aghast when someone takes you up on it. Then learn to close your fucking mouth and learn.

LEARN.

It's been a recurring theme in almost every post (from anyone) that you've become enflamed by. So you try and pull the term @hypocrite@ over and over, quoting pointless TOOL lyrics from a song that had little to do with hypocrisy, and a lot to do with facades and unthinking intolerance.

Digging the irony there?

The hypocrisy?

You probably don't..but that's the rub of it. You seem to miss the forest for the trees. You're so intent on railing against some authority that you want to prove false, that you never take a drop of advice, knowledge, learning from any that you deem in that category. People talk back to me all the time, if they have something interesting and intelligent to say, then we talk...and I learn. You assume that *noone dares talk back*, but I'd say you should ask another asylumnite that you could learn a lot from, Bugimus, about that. Bugs and I have great disagreements. And yet we have respect.

Get the gist?

No?

I can't be surprised anymore. You're not labelled a fool due to your age. You're labelled a fool by your actions. You continuously endorse that labelling too. If not this, then pick any other stringent post of yours. It's sad to watch as you rage and rant about being looked down on, but then basically beg with the other hand to have such done to you. There are plenty of asylumnites that are around your age that gain a lot more respect around here, yet still speak their opinions, and still fuck up. Didn't you ever wonder why you're @special@?

Counterfeitbacon had some odd starts if I recall, but he's a good example of a youthful member that doesn't earn the ire that you do. Earn...did you catch that part?

Now, I've bothered...yes bothered...twice to throw advice in this thread...is it the @right@ advice? Fuck I don't know..but it comes from experience and knowledge. Take that as you may, or merely discard it as you have all times past...but there it sits. If you're merely going to rant away and feel sorry for yourself again, feel free to do it to yourself, masturbatory posting went out with free porn. You probably will retort, for whatever that's worth, and I'd hope it was constructive, but am hesistant to hold my breath.

Your post to others in this thread was both unnecessary, and completely foolish. It made you look an idiot, and furthered some people's desires to have you expunged from typing. We're not talking about me right now at all. Your disrespect was egregious, and I hope beyond hope that you manage to apologize. The knowledge and advice that you tossed off was worth years of you meandering around looking for your @right way@. You should never...ever...have cause to speak to these people that way again. You've burnt bridges to founts of experience.


Like a fool.


Think on that for a while, and I'd say you should be thankful that some here are more forgiving with you as well as their time and efforts. I'd be ashamed.

Peter

*spits*

*throws out 2 copperheads*

*leaves thread*

I find the way you bend over backwards to try to insult me, and then later kiss my ass, rather shameful insider.

The way you throw a fit like a 4 year old, and then complain about us treating you like a "dumbass kid" on the other hand, is rather amusing.

Are you going to cry about how I've "hurt your fellings" again now?

Grow up - you're 15, not 5. The teenager excuse is wearing rather thin.

I'm going to say something very unpopular in these parts - It seems to me that Insider says you're picking on him because you often are. I see it almost everytime the kid posts something. He's shot down constantly by so many of you for the slightest infraction. Sure, he's been a total jackass in the past and maybe posts inappropriately but so do a lot of people here. I have a 15 year old son and I know how they act. I'm exposed to it daily but verbally knocking my son down everytime he opens his mouth would be a killer. I know you guys think you're teaching him, but it's pretty harsh lesson to dish out so often.

I don't mean to be rude to anyone here, just offering a different point of view. I think Insider was only trying to fit in and start a conversation.

I partly agree with you, Amerasu. But on the same note, his last post was definitely uncalled for. I'd hope that if your son spouted off with something like that, that you'd punish him in [insert whatever means you find necessary here].

*shrug* that's all I have to say. *removes self from thread*

Unpopular or not, Amerasu, it's understandable in some ways. There's more to this story than recent history, or just that on this board. However people might be mistaking some honest to god advice for attacks. It's somewhat akin to trying to force water through a brickwall...you either need centuries of the subtle drip, or a firehose.

I'm sure noone will find your comments rude..or at least this noone won't. I'm sure it @looks@ quite bad at times, but there's often more to that then the surface.

And I hope to hell I'm done with this thread.

Amerasu: insider definitely started a great conversation - i found it quite interesting.

and i found mobrul and peter's responses equally interesting, and was hoping to hear more of what insider thought.

personally - and i invite anyone to point out differently - this thread went downwards from insider's 2nd post.

and with that in mind:

insider -

quote:

---

look at this thread, and then look at my post, and then look at it again... Do you really think I took DG's as an insult? Do you really think that I didn't understand what DG posted?

---

trust me insider, i read your the thread, and your post - one quote, and two lines of comments. I think i've gotten a relatively solid grip on the art of communication - and there seems to be only so many ways i can read into your post.

and from that post, i do think you took DG's comments as an insult, and you didn't understand what he posted.

why? well, for a start, you quoted the first line in his post only. That says to me that you read that line, and was so insulted by it that you were blind to the rest of the post.

secondly, you state "Next time I see her, I'll be sure to tell her that you're an idiot." I realise you weren't serious about this, but it says to me that you took peter's imperative literally - which, if my grasp of this whole communication thing is as good as i suspect, was not his intention.

finally, you included the " ". That never helps.

So, for all these reasons, i believed that yes, you were insulted, and similarly, no, you did not grasp what peter was trying to communicate.

so insider - or anyone - please, point out where i missed the boat in comprehending the exchange of information in this thread, because i really want to improve my skills in effective communication.

but if my perspective does make sense, then insider, take this advice from me:


before posting, look at the thread, look at what you are typing, and then look at them both again. does it look like what you are posting could be taken as an insult? does it look like one could assume that you didn't understand their posts? obviously, preconceptions aside, people believe that you are posts lack immaturity for some reason. if it's the opinion of morons like me that you care about, try and read it from the perspective of a moron like me, and guess how i would interpret it.
and try avoiding these: and using these:



see? you can't possibly feel insulted now!



[This message has been edited by reitsma (edited 02-28-2003).]

Raptor, I seriously doubt my son would speak like that if I were anywhere near but I'm pretty positive he says things just like it when I'm not around If I did catch him spouting off like that, I'd ask why first, then have him apologize for his rude mouth, regardless of whether or not he was right. I'd then discuss with him that the others' behavour was also possibly inapproriate and why flaming on forums is a no win situation.

DG is right though, I don't know the entire history here. I only read this forum so who knows what else goes on. Still, the harshness is a little brittle sometimes or perhaps I'm just weak and quivery

Amerasu - as has been said, an understandable point of view.

But on top of the things mentioned above, you also haven't seen the barrage of extremely profane and personally insulting emails I have received from this guy, to which I have replied in very calm and impersonal ways.

The actions of this idiot are given, if anything, far more kind attention than they deserve. Far more patience and understanding, and far more attempts to explain than any one person is entitled.

And yet we continue to do it.

And if our tone happens to become condescending or - god forbid - rude and insulting, we are all the bad guys.

As I said, he's 15, not 5. The age ceases to be a plausible excuse...

can we get back to subject please? its was real good start...but reitsma is right insider take his advice

I didn't know Insider sent off bad emails, only what I see here. I understand the frustration now DL.

Insider in regard to your initial post, people find facts where they want to find facts and ignore those that don't fit with their personal worldview. It's called confirmation bias. Most of us suffer from it in varying degrees. Myself.. I'm an atheist. I have many religious books, apologetics as well as arguments for atheism because it's important to me that I understand both sides of a debate. Still, I have a tendency to read more material that conforms to my religious views because I want to confirm and back up my beliefs (or lack thereof). I think that's natural but not always desireable. Anyway, to your last point... if I were you, I'd just tell the girl whatever your opinion happens to be and leave it at that. She knows you're an atheist so she's probably not expecting you to convert to Christianity on the spot.

Part of the reason DL-44 and DarkGarden are so respected here is that they generally do talk excellent sense. DarkGarden's discourse is a bit sphinx-like at times? Great: suss him out and you could inherit Thebes. (Possibly a bad example, depending on your relationship with your mother.) Still, although oracular diction can make it easy to skirt the truth, I've found DG's posts to be far more substantive than "illusive" -- to use that word in its proper sense. And I've seen the man himself -- or at least his internet face -- to be an admirable human being in many ways, not just artistic ones.

Am I joining the anti-InSiDeR dogpile by saying so? Not at all. See, I even spelled out all the alternating capital and lowercase letters in your name. That's got to count for something, doesn't it?

InSiDeR - You began reading this book with a predetermined outlook. It isn't that surprising that you've come to these conclusions. Everyones entitled to their views. Many Christians won't argue that there isn't a whole lot of solid evidence that points to the existence of a god. Some of us will argue that there are some (what we consider) proven signs, but a large portion of my beliefs anyway relies on faith.


Jestah

*sigh*

Another thread...to any onlooker, it may appear to be 'insider' bashing...but it is not. Anyone who has followed the 'insider' thing from the start, has seen an unparralleled attempt of this board, to 'accomidate' a member.

Time and again, I've seen both DL and DG reach out, with much more patience, and understanding, then I could begin to muster. Bashing? No. One who considers DL and DG's posts as 'bashing' to insider, have never seen bashing posts from the two...esp. from DG.

To Ammarasu - I'll relate a 'teen' story for you, taken from my own experience....it's much 'harsher' than what insider is getting here...

As I was 17, I entered the Army...I was a loud-mouthed, prone to violence without provocation, little snot. One day, out in the desert, I did the stupid thing of getting on the nerves of a man over twice my age...and ignored all his warnings...and just kept at it (boy, was that fun?)...he turned, finally, and gave me a right direct to the jaw. After the fight (well, after I got the shit beat out of me), I learned something very important - how to keep my mouth shut. With time, I came to understand why this had happened to me - I even thanked the guy, later, for this (because this lesson helped me immensely). It didn't stop me from getting into fights (that came later *grimace*), but it did stop me from getting into fights because of my mouth, and superior attitude. And I became distinctly aware, that my actions had consequences. In short, it helped me grow up...

As for DL and DG...well, I've seen people stand in their way...and mostly get chewed to ribbons...why? Because they both normally post with great insight and understanding. I've also seen threads, with them, that have become beautiful, outstanding threads...which tend to be rare occurances these days *sigh*

As for DL...I've seen him take some incredible pot-shots from insider...and still remain calm. I'm not sure I would have remained calm, in those situations.

Many may say, that both DL and DG have 'attitudes'...I don't see it that way...but that is just me, I guess. I've seen them both help people, time and again. For that, I have a huge amount of respect. They both do not have to do that. That they do this freely, is a mark of respect in my book.


WebShaman

I'm just going to pretend that the past dozen or so posts never happened (not that some of them didn't have merit, of course)...

I'm a Christian, and I believe there is a God. Do I believe I can prove that God exists? Frankly, no. Then again, you can't prove that He doesn't exist. This is why I rarely get into arguments over the existence of God, because that's all they are--arguments, and arguments that will never go anywhere. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. That doesn't mean we can't have civil conversations about it, of course. I'm always willing to listen to other points of view. I am less willing to get sucked into an argument that can never reach a conclusion (which, come to think of it, covers a lot of topics, since belief extends far beyond the realm of religion).

Um, so, what's my point? Well, my point is that proving or disproving God's existence is not what is important. You asked what you should say to this girl, and I can only reiterate what others have said before: thank her for the read and continue with your life. You will not be able to change her mind, and she will not be able to change yours, so why bother?

On the way home last night I stopped in the book store to check out this book. It had some hefty endorsements (Hans Küng, Robert H. Bork, George Weigel) and so I figured it wasn't exactly lightweight. So, InSiDeR, I'm reading it too and maybe we can discuss some of its points in more detail. I don't care if you want to do that here or via email.

My guess is that your X probably never thought real hard about a lot of things the book covers and she found it very moving. That's fine, but as far as I can tell so far, he's not exactly saying he can prove God's existence. He's outlining his personal journey and the evidences he's come across in his studies over the last several years. I must admit that I am much more impressed with the "hard" evidences than I am with NDE's and such because I don't see how those can be distinguished from hallucinations, but then again I haven't gotten to that chapter yet

One quote that I thought was worth pointing out now from the book would be this:

quote:

---

I am not claiming that anyone today can reason his or her way to faith in God. This was not even true in my case. For one thing, there was a stage in my life when I never would have bothered to pick up or read a book on near-death experiences, simply because such literature did not fit with my preconcpetions of what was important or what was true. (Indeed, I came across a magazine article on one such experience in the 1980s. I read it, was puzzled, and then dismissed it from my mind. I thought I already knew the truth.)

---

This kind of quote makes me uncomfortable because believe it or not, I have a lot more in common in my mindset with the Materialists than you might think. I studied Electrical Engineering and got a degree in it from a fairly decent university and I put a lot of "faith" in reason and facts. As I grow, I understand that even these seemingly rock hard foundations of my thoughts need to be shaken from time to time. Now you know my faith in Christ and His Grace is very strong but you also need to know that everyone has bias and everyone comes to faith from different walks of life and world views. I want to be as honest as I can not only to help others find their way but so that I don't fall off the path myself.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-28-2003).]

Here's one argument against atheism as put for by Terry Pratchett [badly paraphrased]:

"Atheism does not come naturally to dwarfs. For one thing, it's a bit difficult coming up with a proper curse when you've just hit your thumb with a hammer. They just can't see themselves saying:
'Argh, random fluctuations in the space time continuum be damned!'
'Bloody chaotic natural forces resulting in life!'"

Interesting thread. It's rare that I browse this part of the board. When I do, it opens my mind a little more each time, I think. Makes me think in a different direction. I'm an idiot too. I've looked for proof. Hopefully we all have. But it is absolutely about belief. I need to remind myself that the next time I began to engage in conversation about this particular topic.

A lot of what I just read...well yeah. 3 things I want to say (and I don't mean to turn this thread back to the dark side but I just need to say them).

1. I think the type needs more leading. I feel blind after reading all that
2. Any credibility left that I was giving you went out the door with the "butt buddies" comment. Grow the fuck up. I don't appreciate having to read shit like that on this board.
3. We need a birdie slimie.

There are indeed two sides to every coin. Both sides are clear to see in this thread. InSiDeR, the best mandate on the one side of this thread is the one that goes by the letters, l-e-a-r-n. Concentrate on that one because I want to flip the coin over for the rest of this post.

Have you finished the book yet? It wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be after reading some negative reviews of it on amazon.com I'm actually surprised your X thought it was good for convincing you to give up your atheism.

By and large... what an incredibly good book this was! I think it is terribly mistitled though. It was much less of an attempt to prove the existence of God as it was a very insightful examination of the secularism of Western thought for the last several centuries and how the spiritual aspect of reality can no longer be excluded.

He speaks of the "reconciliation of faith and reason in a postsecular world". That struck me as very odd when I first looked at it and in fact the guy at the check out counter even remarked that he thought secularism was alive and well and wondered about that subtitle. But the author makes the case that a purely secular view of the world is no longer sufficient in light of recent scientific discoveries and other societal transformations. For instance, the emergence of the antropic theory and the downfall of communism.

I honestly don't see how this book would be that good of a book to convince a complete atheist to become a theist. The NDE (near death experience) stuff I felt was the weakest part of the book. While there are many very interesting stories about them, I just felt it was too much in the realm of any other claim of the extraordinary. It almost reminds me of Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, or UFO claims. Lots and lots of tantalizing stories but a disappointing lack of decent evidence. Even if NDEs were confirmed, there is no way of actually determining if people are experiencing the "other side". They could be experiencing another aspect of physical life for all we know. I would have preferred this section be left out.

The book confirms a lot of the things I've been thinking over the years about how faith and reason should not be set at odds to one another. It seems to me that the faith I embrace demands a clear head and clear reasoning to bring it to a more useful level. There is no doubt that things like the pogrums in Europe against the Jews, the witch hunts in Salem, and the Crusades show how religion can be taken to "evil" extremes. But can we forget that an estimated 60 million deaths can be laid at the feet of an atheistic "crusade" known as Communism?

I must admit that a part of the coming shift the book describes worries me. Are we setting ourselves up for a rejection of reason and science because it will be seen as incompatible with faith or spirituality? I pray to God that we can avoid that trap! What a calamity that will be for humanity. Can you imagine how many physical advances in health care, food production, and many other boons to the fight against human suffering are at stake if we abandon the "tool" of science?

I will just conclude this mini review by saying that I think his final section entitled Reason and Spirit was very well put and I look forward to more of us embracing the possibilities that a reconciliation of the two can bring about.

quote:

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If the history of this century offers any lesson, it is that goodness--and a relationship to God, to the Absolute by whatever name He is called--is not only the beginning of wisdom but the only path by which it can be attained.

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God: The Evidence

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-03-2003).]

If only they'd release these books in paper back...

...At Barnes and Noble (the one by me) it's around 18$...Which is far too expensive for a book. But, maybe.

Based on your review, though, it seems worthwhile.

I got the paperback

Really?!?!

How much was it? I'd assume only around $7 right? If thats the case, then I'd buy it, otherwise...I don't know.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 03-03-2003).]

I think it was more like $12. But the link to amazon.com I put above has it at $10.47

I wonder if InSiDeR is going to check back with this thread or not.

Personally, I think there is not only room, for Science and Spirituality, but a definite need for it. For far too long, Science has 'ignored' and scoffed at this area...

It would be nice, if it was taken seriously...and properly investigated. Maybe we could finally answer questions like Is there a Soul? Is there Life after Death? Are there Higher Realms of Conciousness? And if not directly answer, then at least start to seriously investigate these areas...

I feel that Spirituality is sadly lacking in most Western societies...

I hope that this doesn't sound rude, but, WS, I always had the impression that you were very anti-spiritual.

Aside from that, what do you mean by "spirituality?" Do you mean religion, like Christianity, Islam, Hindu etc or that people need to realize that there is some significant other force that has a direct impact on their lives?

I think that things like "Is there a soul," though, are questions that we will never be able to answer. A "soul," IMHO, isn't something that can be measured, it is just something that "is," and, unless people can ask God/Some supreme being what a soul is, we will never know the answer.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 03-03-2003).]

No, it's not rude...I can easily see how you would get that impression...because you are Religious, and I am not. But Spirituality doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with Religion...the exploration of the Inner-self and Higher Counciousness existed long before Religion proper...in fact, I think it's something that Modern Man (society) has largely 'forgotten'...my forefathers were heavily into it...and some still are today.

I am, indeed, quite the spiritual creature...the reason? Partly because of my heritage (which I try to preserve), and partly due to experiences that I have had. No, I am not religious. Not in the least. For me, God is a fairy tale...a good one, but just that.

As for this 'soul', I prefer the term 'spirit'...and believe that every object has one. Quite different than the beliefs of Christianity, who believe that only Man has a 'soul'...I find this...quite strange, and egocentric, actually. Science shows us, that we humans are animals (intelligent, yes, but animals nonetheless). Therefore, if we have these things called 'souls' in your beliefs, then animals must have them too. And plants are also living creatures, so have them as well. Science also teaches us that everything is composed of energy...so why cannot inanimate, unliving objects not have 'spirits'?

You see, one of my main objecting points to the Bible, and God, is that most major religions somehow set Man apart from everything else, as this most important being...it's a seperation of Man from nature. While this certainly might satisfy the need to believe that we are somehow 'greater', or 'better' than all other living beings, this is not correct. We are a part of a functioning eco-system...and are dependent on it. Irregardless of where we stand in it, we are not 'above' it. In fact, attempting to deny this, results in damage to our selves, both physically, and spiritually (that last part is MHO). Science, especially here in Germany, has finally started producing results on the physical aspect...noteworthy is the area of allergies (which the Germans in recent times have really begun to suffer from). One of the reasons? Babies are not being exposed to erregers...so that the immune system isn't coming into contact with what it needs to make enough varieties of anti-bodies...because we live too 'clean'...i.e. cut-off from Nature. Getting 'dirty' is something that is mostly frowned upon, and to be avoided...but when I was a child, it was one of my favorite past-times...

I've also lived in the wilderness...I mean real wilderness...no hot-water, no electricity...for 2 years. During this time, I really enjoyed being in direct contact with Nature...and enjoying Life. Though modern conviences are nice, still...that contact with Nature, is just so precious. It's like satisfying a deep, desperate thirst, that I didn't know was there...just instinctly knew, that something wasn't 'right'...until then. At first, I really missed TV...and other things, I have to admit. But after a period of time, those things were no longer important...sitting by the river, and watching it go by, burbling and throwing small splashes here and there...the Sun in the sky, wind blowing through the trees...fat, lazy clouds drifting aimlessly through a blue heaven...better and more peaceful than any TV show...for hot water, I boiled water over an iron stove. I re-learned how to cook, with a wood stove. I kept animals, had a garden...it was nice. Too bad the land wasn't mine...eventually, the government took back the land, from the owners...that ended that peaceful idyll.

Sometimes, I really miss those times...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 03-03-2003).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

InI & WS, then you two would have liked the chapter on NDEs in this book. He described a study done by a cardiologist who was a Methodist but also a skeptic of NDEs.

He set out to get a more controlled and scientific look at the patients he came in contact with. As a cardiologist you can see how he would meet quite a few people who had been resucitated on the operating table.

Most of the people he surveyed did not have NDEs but the few that did had some very impressive recollections that they could not possibly have had while being under. One guy in particular described the workings and readings of the medical equipment next to his body even down to the readings on the needles.

I remember hearing about another book that attempted to scientifically verify John Edward's abilities to speak with the dead. The Afterlife Experiments: Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life After Death

But think about this for a sec. If we were to determine there is an existence after our life in these bodies, does that prove we have souls? How could we tell whether or not we just passed into a different phase of our physical existence in this world? I mean, energy is just as "physical" as matter when it comes to natural versus supernatural discussions, right? It still wouldn't prove or disprove an all powerful creator god.