Preserved Topic: Examples of Psuedo Truth

1. The afterlife, self-superiority, or numerous other abversions brought about by religions.
2. Urban myths, like "we only use 15% of our brains" or "black people have an extra muscle in their leg" or "space aliens abduct people". There are thousands of these.
3. Political rhetoric like "I will keep Social Security in a lockbox" or "I will give Americans a big tax cut".
4. Affirmations like "I have handguns so I can protect myself." or "Most other drivers are assholes, maniacs, or both." and "Women are not very good at Math."

Shall I continue?

I find it hard to believe that I even have to defend the fact that the *VAST* majority of people on this Earth are clinging to hundreds if not thousands of completely untrue or at the very least improvable concepts. Logic and Reason are not the common denominators of humanity. Yet.

I'm here because I thought I found a group of enlightened people who are very interested in pursuing truth, who don't scorn or scoff at those who are ignorant, but at least acknowledge the challenge of living as a truthseeker - confronting day after day pseudo truths which are so deeply embedded in our neighbors that to discuss them rationally can often provoke them to spite and destructive behavior.


Contained within this sentence is an information virus which has just lept from your computer to your brain.

Meta, what's the point?

the people who would understand already gleaned the knowledge from the other thread. The rest.... what was it that Morpheous said in 'The Matrix' about 'Most people are so hoplessly devoted to the system..."?


tskull@techie.com">
"A kleptomaniac is a person who helps himself
because he can't help himself." --Henry Morgan
ICQ: 67751342

I think the biggest difficulty with letting go of such things because it's something comfortable to hold on to.

Many of those "psuedo-truths" are based around getting some person/people further in their day-to-day existence. You lie while you're campaigning so people will vote for you. You say urban myths to frighten/intrigue people, or to elevate yourself over a group of people (blacks, stupid people and crazy people, as you've listed). Spirituality is only in existence for sulf-fulfillment.....religion is for control. The affirmations you've listed elevate a certain person/group of people to a higher level than the person/group of people that he/she/they is/are speaking about. Lord, that sentance hurts my brain.

So...people hold on to them for control--whether it be self control or not.

The same sort of thing influenced the act of slavery in Europe and America--God is life; God is light; Light is white; Dark is the opposite; Black people are of the devil.

You know...stuff.

Wow, does this thread belong in the presidential forum, or in the OZONE? I sense d the bitterness, and know that it seemed to mostly stem from the **** vesus **** controversy, but it's also chock full of heavy philosophical thinking, hmm. I'm going to "morph" this thread, so it will continue to live on in two places! Seems kinda silly of me, duping a post that's a bit of a downer, but life is tough sometimes.

Your pal, -doc-

Wow, Doc, where have you been? Thanks for keeping my bitter posting as a distinct unit. Eventually, I will be able to narrow the points I present into one or two specific fields of study - memetics and cybernetics.

I don't believe computers are the enemy. I believe nonproductive idea and thought is. To me, the Matrix movie was a great metaphor for the fabricated reality of most people, while they are being harvested by corporations for their own life support.
I believe that surfacing from the muck of hype takes a ritual on the scale of what you have to go through to escape the Matrix. Since the only ritual I have is words posted in a respected forum, I feel I have to work hard to make my point.

Perhaps I feel passionate about it because the world is truly in the balance. The most fearsome meme of all time has recently come along to infect humanity - and that is that nuclear warfare is a neccessary evil. Sure, war's been a culmination of bad ideas for millenia, but now it's gotten into something far more sinister. As we try to teach our children to loathe the concept of nuclear and biological war, we must also begin to help them prepare for more troublesome realities that are will be presented in our future super-high-tech world. Without a future of minds capable of resisting temptation of what the future WILL offer, we are indeed doomed.

(edit = typo)



Contained within this sentence is an information virus which has just lept from your computer to your brain.

[This message has been edited by Metahedron (edited 11-10-2000).]

Wow, you edit your typos? I usually reserve that for times when it's mostly incomprehensible without fixing, heh. If I don't catch it while I'm typing, it usually stays. (I used to do typesetting and data entry, me and one other guy would go slow, stopping and backspacing to our errors as we made 'em. This other kid I had working for me typed like a madman! He finished his part in an hour, and spent the rest of the day tracking down typos. We took three hours and spent another hour finding the 2-3 mistakes that slipped through. Who was more efficient?) But, I digress... :-)

I'm pretty sure I don't agree with you on the nuclear war issue, I don't think it's become accepted as an acceptable alternative at all! I'm betting that at least 98% of the population would not re-elect the silly president who ordered such a strike. ;-) Seriously though, I can't even recall hearing anyone else suggest such a notion in years. You bring up an interesting point with the discussion of thoughts as viruses, mems, what have you. In order to think a high-level abstract thought you need some words to wrap around it. I was talking with some swedish guys today, they were asking me, what's the english word for [this], what's the english word for [that]? I had no answer, all of these words were phrases at best, sentences and paragraphs more typically, or just vague shrugs at worst. If you can control the language you can control the thoughts of the people thinking in it. One of my favorite authors wrote a book called "Babel 17" about a totally new, artificial language that was developed by some mad genius. You could quite literally NOT THINK an illogical thought, paradoxes were not possible in this language. It was also booby-trapped, so that you also started doing things you hadn't expected, the lure of completely logical thought was quite addicting, apparently. The author was Samuel R. Delaney, look it up if you get the chance, it's less than 200 pps. and well worth the time you'll spend on it.

The MEME game can be fun, we used to do this back when I was totally into USENET. Make up a rumour, ridiculous as possible. Let it slip in 3 carefully selected forums, and wait to see how long it takes to work it's way back to you, and in what form. Most folks are *flabbergasted* the first time it really works, this process can take just a few days and then you're getting email from your mom sharing the latest "news", heh.

Words have power. Choose them carefully.

Your pal, -doc-

ok
1) the most important point, Doc's right, about words being powerful... and being careful about choosing them... but WHOM chooses them, is the problem.

2) Definately gonna try and read that book. Just one quip: how would one describe an ILLOGICAL event or though? sounds like 1984's Newspeak

3)unfortunatly, Doc, Meta's right. It's all in how you spin it. If we can justify the theft of privacy, we can surely justify that certain individuals be 'brought to justice' (like the plans that were in the works to use any means necessary to end the drug trade, including the torture and assassination of suspected civilians)

4)Twitch is also right, about our day to day living being the motivation for the majority of this smokescreen and manipulation. As a webdesigner, advertising this and that, weren't you ever forced to advertise something you hated to be able to eat?

That's how it works... and the machine works all too well.

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

Yah, there have been times I built the frameworks for causes I didn't really agree with. If my stance was strong enough, I just didn't do it, and damn the consequences. You CAN do this, just be aware that there can be consequences.

When I was at VISI we got a proposal from this minister, asking us for a quote to design his site. His idea was that homosexuals were simply delusional, and that by several months of "indoctrination" they could be cured. This guy was a wacko, and his text was truly hateful and spiteful, and I (politely) turned down the job. He got pretty vindictive, but I explained that since we so strongly *didn't* agree with him, how could we do our best work? He accepted this, only he first talked to the preseident of the company about our beghaviour. He backed us up. I also lost one job that I really liked for making a similar decision. You don't have to do as you're told, but you do have to be ready to pay the price for your integrity.

Your pal, -doc-

Spot on Doc. Spot on. But hey, I'll tell ya what is a downer! Mostly *all* my posts are incomprehensible without fixing, heh. Some even after =/

Unless I cut and paste.
From posts above.
hehe. Bat on.

Ed. - oh err Edit =)

[This message has been edited by Weadah (edited 11-11-2000).]

C'mon, guys, next thing you're gonna tell me that The Blair Witch Project wasn't real...

I agree with META, that the world is truly hangs in the balance.
When I look back and see what we`ve done in the past 100 years (technology-wise) I think *how can a race so brilliant not reign supreme for ever ?* Then I watch the news, see the things we do to each other and think * how can a race so ignorant survive another day ?*
I hope we can survive long enough to grow up.
And with Twitch on religion: It`s all about control. The Crusades, The Inquisition, TV evangalists. Just think of all the people they could have fed with the money they`ve spent on Pope hats and those smoking purses...
who knows ? Maybe a day in God`s eyes is several million years to us and He(She) is still resting.. Boy is He (She ) gonna be upset on Monday.

Had to put a space in for ever. Is that a bad word?
[This message has been edited by docilebob (edited 11-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by docilebob (edited 11-11-2000).]

Ah, sorry about the ban on that word group "ore", I'm just *so* annoyed that both presidential wannabes have such short names! Bush. Gore. Those names may now be spoken again, I'll try and work on the "replace" function for the forum, so I can have fun making these into silly[er] names, heh.

Religion, hmm. I was raised a catholic, and got out of that gig as soon as I was old enough to say "no thanks". I retaliated and became an athiest in my youth, god *must* be dead, musn't he? After a few more years I realized this was probably just as silly, another form of unconfirmed opinion, just as great of a leap of faith, hmm... After this realization, I opted for the agnostic role, we would all find out when we were dead, one way or the other, wouldn't we? I decdied to live life the way I thought was right, and if god turned out to be petty enough to bitch about my missing a few confessions then I'd probably belong in the hot place. Or nowhere at all, who could tell?

As the years went by, I spent more time in the wilderness, never 40 days and 40 bnights at a stretch, but I made a point of camping 7-10 days a year in the deserts of South Dakota. Peaceful, wide-open, no disturbances from stray thoughts of a confused population swirling around, it was enlightening. The world is big, and seemed aware of me. Could this be "god"? The entire world, the entire universe? It seemed to jibe with the most believable parts of all the great prophets messages, and made me happy in some strange way. This is where my personal faith is nowadays, the universe is alive, and I am a part of it, and so is everything else. If the universe wants to tell me something, it probably will. (And it has done so a few times in my life, heh.)

Are you skeptical about religion, and want to rebel? Do yourself a favor and read as many of the great books of faith as you can. Read the bible, read the koran, study the gitas of hinduism and the tenets of buddha. Absorb as many of these as you are able, and take what seems best for yourself and leave the rest. The basic messages seem the same in all of them; love yourself, respect your clan, don't be mean to others, try and be happy. Enjoy yourself, eh?

Your pal, -doc-

my o.2 drachma

live and let live... there is enough on our little planet for everyone as long as we all don't want too much!

and learn.... learn as much as your little grey muscle can stand! knowledge leads to enlightenment....

and the one that took me the longest of times to grasp.... 'do not judge others....' this is the hardest

ok.. so that was o.4 drachma ...oops <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

~Vp~

Doc, I believe in God, I don't know why, but I do. I have read every book on religion trying to find the 'Truth' (you forgot the Talmud and that other one that begins with a 'T') and my conclusion is that none of them have nailed it. Hence, I refuse to conform my ideas to a religion, I'd rather they conform to what I truely believe and to what MY idea of the 'Supreme Being' actually is.

I'm a Deist, by the way.

As a 'scientist' (wannabe), I see such textbook explanations for the universe and its components that I cannot fathom the 'blind faith' issue. I believe (Deism is a set of ideas, a belief, not a religion) in Newton and Einstein as my gods and Their laws as my commandments. I also believe, as codes of conduct, in Hamurabi's and Nietsche's codes as general guidlines I should follow to socialize with my fellow man. However, I do not follow them out of fear of what 'God' or anyone else has to say about it. I follow them to make sure I retain something most people would trade for a second cup of coffee.

My humanity.


(by the way, one should also read text you do NOT agree with, to gain better understanding of the good AND the bad. Books such as 'Mein Kampf', 'The like of Prince Nicolo Machiavelli' and 'The Unabomber's Manifesto')

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

Heh .

I just like to argue.

Really I have problems sometimes with people who have hard educations in a lot of philosophical realms. They tend to be a bit condescending when explaining their ideas, a lot take a "if you don't accept it you don't understand it" type of attitude. and thats what bothers me.

I guess I don't believe in any big Truths (Capital "T") as being Right (Capital "R") but I am fascinated by ideas. Remember back in high school debate class when you had to debate a position you don't really support? I loved that. And thats the thing about philosophies, psychology, religion and politics. There is no Right. nothing is provable. Topics based on faith and belief such as Religion (and even psuedo-truths and memetics) are so fun to argue just cuz they make people think. These are subjects that make sense and are easy to find evidence of, but ultimately can not be proven.



Walking the Earth like Kane

actually... I like being able to make the other guy rethink what he's saying even if I whole-heartedly agree.

I love that in debate class... Everyone boo-ed because I said that the US should keep it's blockade of Cuba. I disagree with the point, but it's fun to think on your feet like that. I also had another debate where I said that I thought drugs should remain illegal and that drug users --for their cold and uncaring contempt for what congress has decried as law-- should be hung for treason as traitors...

it's really lots of fun...

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

quote:

---

There is no Right.

---

Is that right?

um..... I think that's a paradox...

like trying to figure this one out:

"This sentence is false."

but you can understand what was meant bye it...


...and if I tell you 'no, it's not right', is THAT right?

um..... I think that's a paradox...

like trying to figure this one out:

"This sentence is false."

but you can understand what was meant by it...


...and if I tell you 'no, it's not right', is THAT right?

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

I was raised Presbiterian (been so long, I can`t even spell it anymore) and was turned off by the hyprocasy of *treat others bad during the week, and on Sunday drop a few bucks in the collection plate and everything will be OK* attitude, so I researched lots of other religions, too, and agree witn Petskull that none really *nailed it* (no pun intended). But like Doc found the common thread to be Do what seems right and be nice to each other.
But yea, it`s fun to argue both sides.
Can`t we all just get along ?(hehe)

This is Bit's roomate, don't get too mad at him...

"This statement is False."
is something of a world famous paradox, but really just illustrates that sentences can be written that are not well formed.
I would imagine that anyone with any programming experience would be familiar with this sort of thing. If you forget to close a tag in HTML, it doens't mean that there is no truth, no Truth, or that the media controls our minds.

It simply means that it is easy to create a sentence that is not well formed, especially when said sentence is self referencial.

This sentence does not shut down my brain, it does not make me blue screen, hopefully if you forget to close a tag it doesn't make your computer blue screen either.

I would like to also bring up a point that half assed followers of a belief system don't inherently invalidate said belief system.
People who are jackasses durring the week, and pious on sunday are not a strong enough argument for me to believe that Christian religions are false.
(It took a lot more than that for me.)

Just because I write horrible code, doesn't mean that JavaScript is a bad language.

Politics, now religion? And no blow up yet?
This is getting really cool. There's some excellent conversation and ideas being exchanged around here lately. I'm a Christian myself and can't tell you how many times I've heard these same arguements against it. I understand though, used to do the same myself to some degree. I think it comes from Christians zealously trying to impose *their* will on others, Jesus himself never really did that that I can see. Oh yeah, he taught the Truth (with a capital T) but he didn't condemn those who wouldn't drop it all and follow, he merely waited and moved on. He loved, healed, fed, clothed and forgave. This is what I try to do with my life. Don't always succeed by any means but there is forgiveness and I move on.

Religion controls, God wants to set you free.
Religion collects money, God feeds and clothes the poor.
Religion judges hypocritically, God judges rightly.

The key element though? Faith. Ffft, how you gonna talk rationally and logically about that?!?!



JKMabry

Hey! Don't get me wrong!

Just because I don't agree with christianity or catholisism or the nation of Islam, doesn't mean I disagree with the people who do.

My beef is against 1) People who want to shove their religion down your throat, and 2) People that just swallow what they are taught without ever actually questioning it.

I have a friend named Emileth that is a die-hard christian. But she's that way because it makes sense to her, not because she never dared to look over at the world around her for answers. We will have the most open-minded and intellectual conversations about God and the church, and at the end of the day we'll agree to dissagree. What made these exchanges so cool, is that we weren't yelling, speaking contemptiously at each other or getting mad because I wasn't trying to convince her or vice-versa. Everything is much easier when you realize that 'God' is kind of like Zeno's Paradox. The closer you come to 'The Answer' the farther away you get. Moreover, there HAS to be an Answer. Things happened a certain way. What I mean is, if we had ALL the facts of what happened, we could write an actual, factual, non-interpretational history book; it could only have happened one way.

However, without all the facts, my guess is as good as yours. My faith in my beliefs is just as abstract as Emilith's faith in HER beliefs. Meaning: She's just as right to believe in the Bible's version of God, as I am NOT to believe in him. And it take just as much blind faith to believe, than it does to deny.

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

My father used to always talk to me about how I can't control anyone but myself. No matter how hard I try, I can never MAKE my brother stay out of trouble, I can only ever make it a little bit easier. From this I figured out that no one can ever control me, no one can force me to do anything, no one but myself that is. And this makes me so sad. I cry to think about it. What is it about living that makes it so easy for people to work a shitty job 9-5 for shitty wages, for 30+ years, and at the end of it retire, and have done NOTHING, nothing but support the exploitation of others in even shittier positions then themselves. I do it. I own a computer, parts made out of a product that will not decompose in my grandchildren's grandchildrens time, assembled in China, I own leather shoes, parts made out of another living thing whose entire life was lived out in forced slavery, parts assembled by sweatshop workers in Eucador. I went to guatamala a few years ago for a habit for humanity mission, and we spend an extra two weeks touring around looking at the cities, our local guide was kind enough to point out the sweatshops to use, and the sad thing was, they weren't much different from the rest of the city. I wonder what God was thinking(?) when she gave humanity free will. Our world is full of the living dead, and I do not understand.

It is so hard to communicate with written word, I feel everything I really had to say in the above paragraph will be lost, and it will appear an incoherent rambling. People who live in the northern most reaches often have hundreds of words to describe snow, I wish i had hundreds of words to pick from when I say sad. Or cry, how many ways are there to cry, and but a few words to describe such a profound physical reaction to an deep emotion. I sob? I am wracked with grief? A comforting warmth fills my physical presence while a gaping chasm yawns before my infinite soul? It is no good. Be done with me then.

I juggle too (if I ever hit 5 I quit everything and go on the road)... and I know just what ya mean Optic.. lovely words you wrote

make sure you save them for later.. you won't regret them..

peace... ~Vp~

I liked what you said up there, Petskull... but I must to go bed now, I will elaborate later....

wow... i really need to goto bed....

alrighty....

hmm....

God...

Jesus...

Why is this world such a messed up place? Why would he allow it?

I am gonna say that, If A religion does not in every way agree with the Bible it cannot be true. um... But because of Gods grace it is more of what is in a persons heart, where he will go. To be with God, wonder beyond imagination, or hell, total desolation. The God in the bible is the only God that Loves us and wants to have a relationship with us. A God that LOVES us no matter what we do. If you are a christan.. eh, believe in Jesus, that he came to the world to take away ALL sin, for who ever believes in him, the amount of good works really dosent matter.

dude.. it is too late for this... will go on later....


"There's always a bigger fish."

[This message has been edited by eyezaer (edited 11-13-2000).]

slime... um yeah.. please be less cryptic later

Optic... I have seen many such sights.. that's why one of my goals is to join the peace corps...
here, they have so much and 1)they don't appreciate it, and 2) they want more

Did you know that 10% of the world eats 70% of the food? And did you know that, while thousands of people die in wars over territory, the entire world population --all 6 billion of us-- fits confortably in the state of Texas?

Pride and greed got us here... not lack of resources... or god...



tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

Um, how did you know I juggled? That is tripping me out.

*looks at bio, relaxes* I just got done doing an insane club swinging session to some dieselboy. Nothing like some solid drum n bass(except good jungle of course). I've actually had a really meditative night, one of my girl friends came over and we talked for a couple hours then juggled for a couple hours. I did a lot of balancing and getting in a relaxed state with the warmth of the music. There is so much to be said about repitition. Juggling five is probably one of my favorite things in the world, its so insanely beautiful, five clubs is a bit hard for me yet though. 4 is fun. Passing is another really relaxing thing to do, too bad its winter and I can't really juggle clubs for a while since I re-pierced my webby. *gonna have to get my digital camera out again*

One of the things my girl friend and i talked about was how much we love open people, and how so many people will absolutly not even consider anything else but what they already know to be the truth.

Hrm, so eyezaer, what about someone that lives in the middle of absolutely no where and has no experience of the Bible or christian beliefs? They are going straight to "hell" with no chance of redemption. I find it hard to believe that God wouldn't give everyone a chance.

What an excellent conversation. Very stimulating, and I'm sure my wisdom has been increased by my fellow men and women.

I would like to reply to some of your thoughts.

To Ozone, and others: I believe that your haphazard and somewhat directionless, though heartfelt, methods for determining the Answer as well as a valid system of ethics is just not enough for our future. Neither is going with your unique interpretation of currently available religions. You all seem to be working out a system within yourselves that is more or less beneficial to your own success as well as society's. However, there is not a real logic to these systems you are developing.
There must be. I believe that we are on the path to a new world that will see:
1. the great reset button of life by some horrendous humanmade tragedy
2. fantastic, beautful worlds yet unimagined by the greatest dreamers.
There might be a future between these two extremes, but I think that will be unlikely.

Please read "Why the Future Doesn't Need Us" by Bill Joy to an introduction on what is becoming a major centerpiece of scientific and academic focus - our future.

The reason we must come up with a cross-human provable ethics and philosphy system is because any room for error and disagreement will bring weakness to our future selves when dealing with even more complex problems than the (importantly VERY unresolved) issue of nuclear weapons.

Let me continue replying to other specific points:

Vogonpoet - you make a good sell for knowledge. However, with the amount of information expanding so fast and information overload an increasingly difficult problem, at what point do you say knowledge is bad? Perhaps what is more important that what we know is the ability to discern the quality and importance of new information. What skill is this? Reading thousands of books may increase your ability to reason as well as have solid, provable references when dealing with debates and idea processing. However, it may also further dilute your understanding of what is right or true.

Bitdamaged's roomate: This reply is explaining how your understanding of self-referetiality is not complete. Sentences like this one clearly illustrate how well-formed and, in fact, ironically elegant a self-referential sentece can be in explaining the purpose and function of such a phenomenon. Words that you read here may begin to give you the idea that there are many other realms of self-referentiality besides language. As I type this, I am hoping you will follow it's suggestion: Read more Hofstadter.

Best of all, bitdamaged: Ok, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. What we must develop is a provable, reproducable, responsible belief system that not only answers questions such as what our purpose as "life" is, but also what the benefit and logic is behind ethical behavior (and what the definition of ethical behavior is, for that matter). Scientists and other great thinkers have given humanity the opportunity to truly observe the fundamental laws of the universe. Now, they are giving us the ability to discern the fundamental laws of life, sociology, and self. We must pusue these questions as they are NOT unanswerable. We must have the answers soon, so we can have a consistent reply when our children look up to us and ask,

Why?

Their lives depend on it.

I encourage you to look carefully at this web site:

Principia Cybernetica Web

It is a fine example of the intelligent quest for truth, reason, and a bright future.

{edit: clearing some of the more obvious typos, adding the Wired article}



Contained within this sentence is an information virus which has just lept from your computer to your brain.

[This message has been edited by Metahedron (edited 11-13-2000).]

Knowledge is never bad... and gaining it is a life long journey.. some choosing to make do with mediocrity, and others sucking up as much knowledge as possible...

Hopefully knowledge leads to a more fuller awareness of ones own existance leading to a balance and inner peace with the ultimate acceptance of our own mortality.

Anyhoo.. that was way to deep... lol..

"he who dies with the most toys wins!!!"

peace

~Vp~

Wow, its gettin deep in here. Let me propose an alternative.

Humanity is an accident. The exact conditions have been reproduced to create life. An evacuated tube filled with the bare elements that would have been present in the beginning. When an arc of electricity was passed through in some cases amino acids were made. We are a random phenomenon that occurs very rarely.

We are a virus. We do not create, we only destroy. Our only purpose on this Earth is to consume its resources for our own gain. We do not give anything back to it. We only make a concerted effort to give back when we realize we are hurthing ourselves. We grow and grow and soon we'll exhaust this planet of everything it needs to survive. What then? There are already plans of migrations to other worlds where we will terraform to make that planet into a inhabitable place for us. Then we will suck the life out of those planets as well. Sounds alot like the lifecycle of a virus to me.

Think about it. We have been on this Earth for far less than a second in the grand scale of things and Earth is already dying. We take and we take and only now do we have a total understanding of the ramifications of what we have done. But we rationalize our actions for the sake of our conscious's.

We invent a God who created this Earth just for us. He gave us his creation so that we could exploit its resources and his other creatures for our own benefit. We justify the things we do "for the sake of all mankind."

Even things that we consider beautiful are destructive. Art is simply an exercise in destroying something natural to create something to please us. If you want to see something truly beautiful go outside a city and look at the stars. Go look at the amazing patterns formed in a folded mountain. Watch an ant carry a potato chip that is several times its own weight, that is beauty. Not some sculpture that was created by taking raw materials away from the Earth and chipping away at them until you have something that appeals to your senses. Its just destruction.

Now, those may or may not be my beliefs. Probably more towards the may not. But you gotta admit the only time we truely give anything back to the Earth is when we die.

unless we are cremated Krets! heh then we add a few more carbon elements to help out the depletion of the Ozone layer (no offense Doc!) <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

hmmmmm... <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Krets-

So you think that it "harms" the earth to mine minerals? I imagine you find the diversity of life to be a beautiful thing. Humans are rather like a plague, aren't they? Or, are they just the next level of Evolution - the cold and fiery unstoppably fearsome beauty that is unavoidable strides towards organization. Does a black hole have a choice to become what is became? Do we have a choice to become a planet of hyperintelligent machines?

It's disgusting how humans treat our ecosystem. Relative to humans. But I ask you to take a step back. Look at things on the scale of quantum physics, gravity, the seething soup of entropy that comprises all perceiveable things. Isn't the level of order and organization we have acheived an act of beauty? An act of progress towards something far beyond this petty carbon-based mass we call life? One can clearly see the acceleration of material and information organization in the predictable scale of evolutionary progression. We can hope that humans will stop destroying any barriers to that progression - and you rightfully bring up some of those harmful behaviors in this discussion.



Contained within this sentence is an information virus which has just lept from your computer to your brain.

wow... life has no meaning? we are here for nothing... when we die we are gone? no hope for life? and the only way we live is for the moment cuz we think there is nothing else out there... sounds like that is why the world is such a messed up place.
That is not very encouraging.

anyway, sorry i havent replyed sooner, i am having an INSANE week.

errr....
i think the Doc hit on something, But, God is just and merciful. He displays himself in his creations.

quote:

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The world is big, and seemed aware of me. Could this be "god"? The entire world, the entire universe? It seemed to jibe with the most believable parts of all the great prophets messages, and made me happy in some strange way.

---

God can see what is in a persons heart, and if anyone searches for god he will find god.
Also, those people once had a very easy choice to live for god or not, or their parents parents... they decided not... God Is always there if any of them have any kind of desire in their heart. If you search you will find.

Also, this world is messed up because of all the sin and junk, it is a fallen world given over to the prince of darkness. God cannot be with sin because he is holy. Yes he loves us, but he is just, and the evil will be punished. I gotta get back to work <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif"> <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">


"There's always a bigger fish."

Hmm... in response to Kretsminsky, I'd like to bring up this interesting point: You're saying we're destroying the beauty of the universe. However, you are a member of the species destroying that beauty! (This is starting to sound like a personal attack, don't worry, it's not intended to be like that.) What I'm saying is, if we're the only ones who can percieve the beauty of the world, and we destroy it and in doing so destroy ourselves, well... who cares? At that point, the beauty will be gone, but it wont matter because anything that's able to percieve that beauty will be gone with it. There won't be anything or anyone left to be upset about it. So it's kinda worthless to begin with. If you know what I mean.

Personally, I'm a Christian, and I believe Jesus died on the cross to give me a way out of sin and into Heaven. Although I originally learned this from my parents, trust me that I've taken the time to struggle with it myself and have come to the conclusion that it's true. I wouldn't base my life off of something like this because my *parents* told me. (I figure this is important to say because of my reasonably young age...)

Someone at one point asked what happens to those people who are separated from society and haven't heard the "Gospels", the good news of Jesus Christ. There's actually a passage in the Bible about that, I can probably find it if you like... I think it's around the beginning of Romans. It basically says that God has made himself known by his creation - by the very fact that things exist - so that everyone is responsible for accepting His existence, regardless of whether other humans have told them.

So how can I be so certain that God exists, just from his creation? Take the beginning of the universe. To say that it created itself is somewhat silly; how can it create itself if it doesn't yet exist? There had to be some little tiny particle for it to come from; there had to be some sort of beginning. I believe God is the entity that created that particle, or that beginning. Why does it have to be an intelligent being? Look at the world around us. I've read about the statistics of things like life creating itself, and beings as complex as humans evolving from those first cells. Believe me, the probabilities are *tiny*, well beyond what scientists consider to be impossibility. Then there's the amazing complexity of the universe, the seemingly infinite amount of stars - it's all so organized and amazing, how could it have come about by chance?

So that's my take on the whole thing. Hope you didn't get bored reading all that =)

how about simplifying things a bit?

why don't we all live our lives as productively and happily as is humanly possible.... and then when it comes time to meet our maker, creator, God, chemist, unknown etc etc.. then each of us deal with it then?

when it comes down to nuts and bolts... there are only two things that each of us really share.. birth and death....

how we choose to fill up that time inbetween those points is pretty irrelevant... as long as when you get to your point of exiting this world as we know it (perceive it etc) we are each content, satisfied, peaceful and last but not least Happy....

why we exist is not important... that we exist is VERY important..and thus do not waste a moment of it.. unless of course thats what makes you happy...

who am I to judge? <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

peace

~Vp~

whew!
my brain is a little too full right now, and i usually dont touch any threads that arent about straight ol' graphics or coding, but this time i cant leave it alone.
kretsminky: i have no idea how someone can stand in absolute awe of nature, and all creation, and yet be satisfied with the notion of it all being an accident.
think deeper - ok, we exploded into being (even though all explosions are destructive, i wont bother going there, cause no-one cares for that).
so, where did the matter/anti matter from which we exploded into being come from?
God seems like a logical answer to me - his eternal nature explains it all.
I have to admit, there are many things i dont get - but all i am is a creature, created by God for His glory.
When He created us, he wanted creatures that would choose to give glory to him, not just do it autonomously.
And this explains the mess we are in.

How do i know God exists? I dont believe that evolved matter could generate a consciousness, emotions, desire, a conscience, or have a need to discover some meaning to its existence.

OpticBurn - i have often thought about the question you pose for eyezaer, and also applied the question to those who were around before christ, or before the ten commandments even.
Its a very tough one, in which i eventually have to resign to the fact that God knows what he is doing, and that even God's folly is beyond mans greatest wisdom, and thank God that he's the one who figures it out, and not me!

hmmm... this post is quite the ramble, but i guess thats the way my mind works.

heh heh heh - one last thing though - i have heard that Christianity, by the laws of proability and mathematics, is still a wise choice.
That is - even if there is only a one in a billion chance that Christianity is the true religion, an eternity in heaven shows that this belief is infinitely better than the outcome if one were an atheist.

pixels...

why is it to hard to believe it just happened?

the 'easy' answer is 'God', the one sprung for generations...

Well, I can't really explain how 45 goes into 4425930... does that mean that god did it... more importantly... I can't explain how Doc does those cool shiny spheres... did god do that?

of course not.. there's a very simple explanation as to how that works... but attributing 'holy understanding' into it instead of scientific reasoning and investigation isn't going to get you anywhere. It's comparable to an ostrich sticking it's head in the ground.

You mentioned probability. Have you taken High School chemistry (no offense, just don't know where you're from or how old you are)? You'll see that elements are reacting all around you, not thru 'miracles', but through simple laws of physics. Surely you don't attribute moldy cheese and fermented milk to 'The Lord's Glory'. However, there are the exact chemical reactions that fueled the creation of life here those many years ago. They might have elsewhere, too. They might be happening as we speak (uuh... type?) in 'a galaxy far, far away'.

...and if you believe in fermented sugar (read: beer), then you agree with me.

however... I believe it was Ben Franklin who said that "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

I DUN WANNA HEAR IT!!!!

Well, actually, I do.. that's why ya gotta go here, ya damn anti-christ devil's children!!!


"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 11-14-2000).]