Preserved Topic: Paint with twItch^ (Page 1 of 1)

this one's short, and it's been grinding on my nerves for some time now... I guess I'll just let it out, and you all can chew on whatever bits you like, and toss out the rest--kinda like what many of you do with any assistance.

If you're gonna post something, lets assume that you're willing to make it "better," to change it, to morph it into something else... otherwise, you're just blowing up your fucking ego, and I have plenty of that to share with you. You needn't try to trample on my territory of egotistical mania. I won't have it.

What does this mean? It means that we can "talk" until our fingers fall off, and if you don't take something from it, we're just fucking wasting our time... and that really irritates us. I'm speaking now as all of us that give out advice, free, without paying for a book, without taking in a nickel in revenue... we're doing this for you.

Now if you don't want to change something, to better it, to morph it, to toss it and start over, to take ideas, to move into something new......would you please post that in the front of your message so we don't have to come up with some improvements? Quite frankly, I've stopped reading most, because I just figure you don't want an actual critique, and you're going to leave it as is regardless of how I say what I am going to say.

So really, just a preface would be quite nice.

Thanks, you can go back to whatever you were doing before.


s t e p h e n

I think twitch^ needs some coffee... and carrots.... and maybe some sleeping pills...

does this have anyting to do wit wead? i am guesssing not.... um.... I guess that is a good point. Webpages are for showing stuff off.

izzy comes here to learn, but i think there is a time for mindless conversation here, not ooh.... tha is good.... ohh that is bad... but yes.... good point there bratha.

edit... i just had a thought...
back to Weadah. He has just dropped in and showed us some amazing stuff and then jumped out for a time... What he showed was really good though, and the kinda stuff DG and Steve and... have shown off... I also come here to see artwork that is inspiring. Okay, Maybe these are not the people you are talking about because they will help if you have a question about waht they did.... That just rocks. um... yeah.



[This message has been edited by eyezaer (edited 05-15-2001).]

Steve - agreed - perhaps a defualt sig ? heh

Eye : shit! i still owe you mail. today man for sure - see im opening email right now.....hey look free pizza!

i think perhaps Steve is saying that if you intend to post work for review then do so with the idea that you will take whats said to you and put it to some use. if you are posting stuffs just to show then say so - it saves alotta typing for zero reason. your kilometres may vary.

I agree with twitch on this one. I've seen too many misunderstanding because someone criticized something and the author started whining about how we're all a bunch of cynics, yadda yadda yadda.

Anyway, I don't think it'd be too much trouble to make it clear whether or not you're putting your pic on the chopping block or you're tooting your own horn a bit. Now, don't get me wrong, I like to toot my horn as much as the next guy (I can't believe I said that, ), but it's kind of deflating too see something you thought was pretty good ripped to shreds in here. But that's not a bad thing either.

If you ever want to improve yourself, you have to learn how to listen to others and their perspectives. That way you'll be able to improve on your work and you won't get stuck making the same stuff over and over again convinced that you've reached the pinnacle of achievement.

For the record, I don't think twitch was referring his comments to weedah or anyone else in particular. He was just expressing some opinions on something he thought was important.

Well, sorry to get long winded. Enjoy.

TwItch^:"What does this mean? It means that we can "talk" until our fingers fall off, and if you don't take something from it, we're just fucking wasting our time... and that really irritates us. I'm speaking now as all of us that give out advice, free, without paying for a book, without taking in a nickel in revenue... we're doing this for you."

I completely know where you're coming from. But...

Don't overlook the fact that a third party in the transaction may well benefit greatly from the posing and your critique, even if the original poster refuses to do so. That's arguably of greater value because it addresses the community here, not just the poster.

Twitch, you make some very good and valid points but I think there may be a perspective you may be missing. This board(as I see it) is framed off of 2 main types of people: the experienced and infinitely knowledgable gurus and the proverbial newbie who needs the the direction of the higher powers for guidance.

I, personally, have been frequenting this board for close to a year and have taken away boundless amounts of techniques and tips. The main thing I have noticed(as it pertains to the subject at hand anyway) is the observation that there seems to be 2 main types of "experienced and infinitely knowledgable" gurus here also. First, you have the "WTF... I can't believe you posted that... you should've known better... here's what I would have done...". These people normally follow the "here's what I would have done..." with some very valuable information but, given their preceding comments, their would-be valuable information loses most of it's luster. The second type of "experienced and infinitely knowledgable" guru is the actual teacher, someone who remembers where they came from. The teacher is most likely found preceding most of his or her statements with " that's a good start" or "that's an interesting idea" before giving their criticism.

Again, I can only speak from a "newbie's" point of view but, this makes a huge difference for me. I, for one, am not a web/graphic designer for a living although I struggle and aspire to be eventually. In actuality, I am a auto mechanic. I work 10 to 12 hours a day and still manage to sit down in front of Photoshop or Flash almost every day when I get home. Now, after working 10 or 12 hours and coming home to work another few hours on my latest PS project, it's very discouraging to post here for criticism only to be kicked in the teeth by one of the "WTF" gurus. I get enough of self-important people at work but it's even harder to swallow on my freetime.

My point is(I know ya'll have been waiting a while for that) that there are many great people here that give awesome ideas, inspiration, and constructive criticism but there are and probably always will be a few of those "WTF" gurus that seem more focused on the heights that they have achieved rather than where they started and what they went through to get where they're at. For those "WTF" gurus, take a lesson in humility and remember a few things:

Remember Where Ya Came From(I know I keep bringing that one up but it's hard for some people to take in)
Remember Those That Struggle To Be In Your Shoes
Remember That There Are Other "Real" People On This Board Besides You

Anyone remember the Golden Rule: " Treat Others As You'd Like To Be Treated" ?
I just want to say, from the bottom of my heart, thank you to all the "Teacher" gurus. People like you have been the ones to keep me going. Oh well, that's enough from me... flame away.



[This message has been edited by Shard (edited 05-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Shard (edited 05-15-2001).]

Interesting post.........hmmmmmm...i just like hangin out .......sometimes it with other artist....sometimes it with other crazies......and other times its with the insaine........but thats the subculture where creating with this digital domain........

Me i like to come and hang......aspire......chat....i like to bring some of my wall hangins...makes it feel like home......so posting visuals are necessary.............i cant drive up with a nice hog and chat with others about there rides or there art work so i ride in with a pic or 2 in the forum just to stimulate conversation..........as far as the topic of this post......i agree........just show ya butt up with what ya got feel good about it and let the natural flow of things work....ya gotta know where gonna see thru your intentions.....why mask it....dont be shy ..im not..........

ohoohohohoh, see that's where the fun part comes in, you see...

I can sum up all of your comments (against my tirade, that is--those in favor of it are clearly the superior humans) with this one response: If I had to remember where I came from, then you wouldn't advance as quickly.

Wait, maybe I need to flesh that out just a touch. Wouldn't want you all to get discouraged and confused.

Lets be honest for a moment, shall we? I've been in the realm of graphic design & web development for the better part of 7 years now... I started quite young, and I absorbed as much of the information available as I possibly could to advance my techniques and talents into the fashion that I saw best fit me.

If I try to apply *that* to many of you, it simply won't work. So I am *forced* to forget my past. I'm beyond that now. Sure, I'm learning new things every day, but if I try to make you all learn under the same pretense that I have, then you're all completely fucked... trust me. So, I take new paths to try to teach you people...

So, a step backward I won't do. A step forward, you must do. See how that works?


s t e p h e n

Yeah, getting bashed is less fun than getting stroked, but you don't learn a damn thing from getting stroked.

Yeah, if I wanted an ego booster I'd get a parrot

Hmmm... I must've miscommunicated something. Never once, in my post, did I mention anything about "stroking" or sugar coating anything. All I said was there are some people here that could learn a little civility and humility before they post critiques. The information is a lot easier to swallow if it's laid out as if the teacher is on the same level as the would-be student. That's a fact, not an opinion. As I've stated already, I deeply enjoy watching the forums here and making my occasional post and I won't let a few rotten eggs ruin my view of this board. Hell, I can roll with the punches with the best of them. My point is simple, if you don't think your efforts on this forum are being absorbed, try swallowing some ego and tone things down a bit.

Now, I'll leave with another quote. "Those who refuse to remember their past are assuredly doomed to repeat it."

"Those mired in the past are forever damned to stay there."

Wait, I have twenty or thirty other pointless quotes that contradict each other in paradigm as well.....

I digress.

Fact of the matter is, twitch^ touched on a very valid point here. People who don't want to progress, merely be praised, should save their pieces to show their moms. She'll coddle you, stroke your ego, and tell you that your shite is shinola....hey..maybe she'll even pin your monitor to the fridge.....

Shard doesn't want to be talked down to when he's being critiqued. Another valid point. Everyone is learning, and has to keep that in mind. Here's the deal though, Shard: A lot of people have already learned the next steps you need to take....and if you want to learn them, you'd best perk the ears, and bury the need for an ego rubbing, or it will all slide by you while you're waiting for someone to be polite.

I agree, it's shitty to get scathed by someone you respect, or want to learn from..but..uh...if you just shut down and don't learn anything from them, just because they're not "nice people" then guess who the moron is?

Those people will continue to learn, and you'll stagnate, waiting for someone to be kind, instead of helpful. Learn from everyone. PERIOD.......if nothing else, just learn "Wow, I'd never want to be that kind of an ass." Then suck all the information that they have to give you, from them.

As much as it would be lovely for it to be a sweet world where the people who have been where you are, are willing to red carpet the way for you, and pat you as you pass.......It just isn't gonna happen, kids. So, while we all learn, we'd better think about how we're going to pay it back to the people coming behind us, and stop worrying about how "sad and unfair the big bad men were to me"

No fucking time for boo hoo if you're busy working.

Take the hints....leave the egos, and the tears.


Hope it helps.

Peter

As an example, if you've ever had a really good teacher, then you know how great they are to learn from.

However, I've also run into some really nasty teachers. They were smart guys, but I have no idea how they earned their teaching certificate. The thing is, if you're ever going to get anywhere you're going to have to learn from both. There's no two ways about it.
In fact, sometimes the worst teachers are the ones who you really need the help from.

Anyway, I just wanted to echo the point that the material is important. The message not the means, if you will. And if you have to wade through some bullshit to get to it, I'd recommend taking a shower afterward.

Enjoy

Shard: If you want to see an example of what twItch^ is talking about you should go and look at all of Duga's posts in the 3D moddleing & Animation forum. Yep, that's about all I have to say.

Dracusis

Well, I see I'm vastly outnumbered here but I forbid myself to stray from my original intent. I really didn't decide to post in this thread to make enemies. As a matter of fact, that idea was farthest from my mind. I simply wanted to give a perspective from a "newbie's" eyes. And, as I also stated, I take a lot from this forum on a regular basis, no matter what the thread is packaged in. Some of the very best teachers I have had in the past, have been the harshest. However, even the harshest teachers didn't go out of their way to be hurtful. I recall reading many(too many IMO) posts on this board where the authur couldn't have had any other motive other than to be crude and malevolent. Just because they may have thrown in a little valid info afterwards doesn't make their position more dignified.

Let's clear another thing up while we're at it. I'm not refuting Twitch's original idea at all. In fact, I agree whole-heartedly. Most of you guys and gals put a lot of time into making this a great place... for free. I've learned to take the kick in the teeth and keep on plugging... to look past the crap for th true gem of knowledge. I learned this long before coming here. Twitch put out an idea(as I see it)... "Why Does It Seem Like Less People Are Actually Digesting Our Info". My post was to just spur some thoughts as to why that may be. If ya toss someone a fortune cookie, most will open it, read it, and learn or get a chuckle from it. Now, if ya stuff a Chinese proverb into a steaming turd, chances are most try to duck the turd rather than gain some knowledge from it.

Oh well, I've got the Gurus against me now. Lessons I learned or was reminded of from this post:

Suck It Up
Take the Kick in the Teeth
Shaddap
Keep Struggling to Be the Guru

I guess I'll be branded for a while around here. I believe my intentions were good but maybe it lost something in the translation. I dunno. Anyway, thanks again to everyone here at the Asylum. You've boosted my knowledge greatly, even if I do occasionally have to put the hip waders on. I point a lot of new newbies(hehe) in this direction even if I know the spanking is inevitable. Time to go climb in the hole I've dug.

Hehe... yeah Dracusis, I've read them all. Duga's a hard headed one isn't he? I guess there's always a few that, no matter how you package it, they just don't get it.

Look around... that's 97% of the world.

But only *I* was powerful enough to make Duga says those immortalized words...'I've had it, no more'


It was a beautiful day. I'm proud to have shared it with you people.


s t e p h e n

Shard, no one's against u, I wouldn't worry about your reputation. You speak the truth about good and bad teaching styles. You just have to remember that not everyone here is a teacher. I'd say the assistance offered around here is way more helpful than anyone should expect from an on-line community.

The bottom line is who's trying to glean knowledge from whom? Actual teachers are more or less payed to care, and beyond that they generally love teaching (the good ones anyway). People are here for many different reasons, but helping others is probably not #1 on the list. Don't get me wrong, I think we all try to do our part helping here, but why should people DESERVE carefully edited critiques? Considering the amount of knowledge you can get here, I say take what you can get, and you will inevitably get better.

Being right doesn't necessarily make it worth arguing.

-jiblet

I agree with everyone (even Twitch) to a degree, but mostly Shard.

Those who know have no responsibility to help those who do not, and it is only by the goodness of their hearts (those who have them) that they share their knowledge with the less-fortunate like myself. (At this point, I'd like to thank everyone who has answered a question on this Forum with a tip, hint or outright help. Far too many times to count, I've sat at my computer reading this Forum and going, "Ohhhhhh... THAT'S how you do it!")

However, those same people who know should (not 'have to', 'should') remember what it was like when they were new. They likely asked too many questions (or wished they had someone to ask questions of) in the hopes of gleaning one more piece of knowledge from those who know more. I'm willing to bet that none of them thought, "Boy, I hope someone puts my newbie ass in its place today." Something to keep in mind, though most of the 'those who know' are pretty darn good about niceness to newbies.

DG brought up a valid point, that if you really want to learn, you're going to have to do it from whoever has something to teach, regardless if they're particularly nice about it. However, that does nothing to excuse the teacher for their attitude, especially if they encountered the same kind of attitude when they were the student. What does it say about the ego (not to mention the maturity) of someone who thinks of themself as a teacher when they knowingly treat a student in a manner that they themselves would not enjoy, simply because they cannot be bothered to use a little civility?

If a "teacher" feels that he/she has to beat down those around them as they get their point across, that's just sad, and I do feel sorry for them, either for their ignorance or their insensitivity. But it's also tolerable, which is why I keep coming back, time and again.

Ultimately, I'd just like to say that you elder-know-it-all-types ARE kinda like role-models to those of us on the Forum. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. If being a role-model is really that hard on you...



Wangenstein

"Asking is just polite demanding." -- Max Headroom

Jiblet, excellent post... 'nuff said.
Wangenstein, I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.

What a bunch of whiners. Jeez..

The amount of knowledge that pases through this * place* is staggering. I (as a *newbie* also ) can only hope to be around long enough to absorb it all. You can`t go buy this stuff. Anywhere. And it`s free. What do you want them to do ? Just inject it directly into your brain, so you don`t have to see the reality of it in the learning process ?

If your delicate sensibilities are offended, while these good people are trying to help you. f***ing walk it off !

If your work is posted here, expect critiques on it, one thing there`s plenty of around here, is opinions. If you post it, they will come. These people are passionate about what they do. And Are very good at it. Try and find this kind of help out in the 3D world. I dare ya.

It`s worth taking a beating for, even VP`s mop for every now and then. Hell... krets is pregnant. You don`t hear him crying about it.




If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done ?

*sits in dark corner on upturned bucket lovingly polishing mop handle, sillohetted from the head to knees, only his feet can be seen refracting the dim lighting of the asylum corridors*

*mutters and and groans, softly stroking, smiling in a most distubed fashion................* ~Vp~

*quietly sitting in my cell, rocking back and forth, giggling and jabbering about mustard*

AAWWW, man .. Is it my turn again ?

Yeah, you tell 'em Bob.

(i've said this far too many times to repeat it again just yet....so I'll just lend some moral support)

Yea, What I said, but I wish VP would stop * polishing his mop handle * in the halls. I mean dosen`t he have a cell somewhere ?