Preserved Topic: Who gets the money???? (Page 1 of 1)

I've been in a debate with another attorney this morning on a national case about to go to court on it's second appeal. The first/lower court ruled in favor of the son and the higher court ruled for the widow. Tell me what you think....

A elderly man worth well over 3 million dollars meets a younger girl in her upper 20's maybe young 30's. They marry pretty quickly. The man leaves no will. The law states the money is to be divided between the widow and the son.

However, after several family members and the son notice something just doesn't seem right....the son hires a private investigator to check this widow out. He learns that this widow use to be a man and had a sex change. She claims she told the man prior to the marriage but the son says no way. Another issue is....that law does not honor same sex marriages and one court and the son state even though the widow had a sex change operation that only changed the body form and not the sex.

So....how do you feel...is the widow male or female? Is the marriage a legal due to that state not honoring same sex marriages?

Who gets the money?

Is this a continuation of Bugimus's conundrum post?

~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

~reads post again~ ummmm no.



[This message has been edited by Shiiizzzam (edited 01-24-2002).]

The son is a whiny and greedy fucker as to hire a PI to follow around his father's widow.

Solomon say? Screw the son.

The denial of same sex marriage is just about as handicapped as denying there's a sky when you don't like the colour blue. As for the reality of the legalities though, the terminology for the operation stands "transexualization" is a process of changing sex. Does that make her a woman? Who cares, since it indeed makes her female, and THAT is what the law describes.

And one last time....keep the state away from our bits and pieces...


and stuff.

~cough~

Agreed. She is a "she". Therefore, not a same sex marraige and all the original laws apply.
Interesting case though.

$1.5million is more than anyone ever needs. They should just split the money and be happy.

DG said it best I think.

But to end all confusion, just give me the money and call it a day.

No will? 50 - 50. Done.

And I guess they're both only interested in the money. Now if the question would be "who deserves it?" I would've said give it to a charity. But hey, it's not my task to judge people.

I remember having an arguement with an ex-girlfriend along these lines and I doubt there is a good right answer (apart from krets' solution which is no good either as all the money should go to me).

Technically if the state doesn't allow same sex marriages then its down to whether the operation has made the 'widow' a woman. Genetically they are still a man despite the change in the fleshy bits but some people have some pretty odd mixes of the X and Y chromosomes (wasn't there a female athlete once who had this problem) so we can't define people genetically cleanly and with the wide range of variability in the fleshy bits I doubt we can really define someone's sex by their biological characteristics. So this leaves people to define their sex by how they feel - so the 'widow' is a woman and she gets the money (which is also the point the ex-girlfriend strongly disagreed with me and things went badly quickly!!).

So:

a) That law on same sex marriages is unworkable.

b) You are whatever sex you think you should be.

Emps

How society should structure it's law regarding same sex marriages is another debate altogether. I don't want to start that debate right now so suffice to say that in this case that you have described, Shiii, I say 50-50 done.

I also agree verbatim with the first two lines of DG's response.

Tough questions.

I assume "she" didnt tell the man about her true sex - in my eyes "she" is still a man inside. Like it was mentioned - changing body form isnt changing the inner sex. She was born a man, and everything she does from there on with her body - its (plastic) surgery. The kind of surgery that makes her look like a woman yes....but still only surgery. Heck, Michael Jackson could be a woman then with his looks and voice.

I guess its up to the judge to decide that.

So to give my answers to your questions:

- "She" is male
- Marriage is not legal
- Son gets all/most of the money

Besides...seems pretty unfair if she gets half, looking at the story. In general, i think its a fucked up 50-50 rule ya got overthere But hey...my opinion only

How in the world would he not know she had a sex change? I totally assumed the rich old guy knew about that. The description of the case doesn't say anything about the man not knowing about "her" operation so I assumed he was fine with that arrangement.

Being an elderly man, sex may not have been possible (they married pretty quickly). Besides, since the son knows his father better than the girl, he might have a better idea if the father would have known or not.

Obviously it comes as a shock for the son that the girl used to be a man.

Even if he had known, theres still the doubt-question "is the girl a man or a girl?". My logic tells me that you are what you are born.

ok...legal-wise:
does it really matter if the husband knew or not?
and
did they get married in a state that allows same-sex marriages?

let me explain. if they got married in a state that allows same-sex marriages, then it's really irrelevant whether or not the 'She' was a he or not, you know what I mean? if the state does, then the matter is purely academic.

I personally think that laws that inhibit the personal freedom of a consenting adult or a group of consenting adults (such as 'substance abuse' or sodomy) are unconstitutional. However, there are hundreds of laws on the book that, in my belief, distort and pervert the fundamentals this country was founded upon, but that's a debate for another time and the laws on the books never really gave a rat's ass about my opinion.

In other words, regardless our personal ideologies and convictions, what does the letter of the law say?

And what, again- according to the law, defines a man or a woman?


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

Rane: You said:

quote:

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you are what you are born.

---

but for some people it just isn't that simple. What about the people born with odd chromosomes, both sets of sexual organs (the doctor, at least in the past, used to make quite an arbitary decision about the individuals gender), women (I don't think it can happen to men) who are genetically male but physically female due to a fault with the gene which makes them sensitive to testosterone (I have more details if anyone is interested - it was on TV the other night basically the 'default' setting for humans is female and testosterone kicks in and makes males when they have XY chromosomes but a lack of sensitivity to testosterone actually makes them hyper-feminine), etc., etc.

Personally I'm not sure where you'd draw the line in such an ambiguous area.

Emps

What sickens me about this case regardless of how the law reads is the fact that it is about "who gets the money" and not about whether the old fart and his girl were happy.

Emperor,

I agree with you on that subject. In the rare chromosome-cases, its different of course. But in this specific situation it doesnt sound like this is the case.

Also, assuming that there isnt any chromosome-case here, I guess you'd also have to look at how the "widow" has dealt with the feeling-female thing all her life. If she's always felt like a woman from an extremely young age, and always thought of herself like a woman, dressed like one, acted like one etc.etc. - in that case we might consider her as being female. However, if she just found out one day in her early 20s...."hey...i wanna be female". Thats a different thing.

And at last - Bugimus is right too. Its always about the money, and in most of these money-issue situations....its mostly involving someone marrying someone for the money, trying to get some easy money. Not saying its the case here, but it kinda looks like it to me.

Want it solved?

Well then, it's Solomon time.


Take all the money less living expenses for both for two years...give it to a charity for the relief of suffering for gender-displaced, and transgendered people.

If either one of the people who are supposed to "get the money" complain about that, then they obviously never deserved the money at all. If the dead man didn't know about his wife, then the money isn't hers, and at least deserving humans are helped by it. If he did know, then both people can be happy that it's helping people who draw the same lot in life. If the son truly loved his father and just doesn't want him duped, then he can be happy in knowing that the money is safe from greedy hands. If he still wants it...


Well then, we know what kind of son he is.

As for whether she's male or female....Jesus, grow up guys, you can't judge on what does and doesn't make someone what they are. That's what a life is for, to determine what we are...who we are.

Oh I suppose you could judge that....but then "...lest ye be judged."

~shrug~

Rane: I think your middle paragraph pretty much sums up the problem. I certainly wouldn't want to sit in judgement on someone to decide you much of a woman they felt and from what age (and that is without worrying about how correct those criteria are). In the end you have to take their word for it. I think the fact that they underwent tens of hours of pretty major surgery, spent years on hormones, spent tens of thousands of dollars, completely changed their life, etc. probably indicates that they were pretty serious about the whole thing (its not like waking up one morning and deciding to be a woman and throwing on a dress!!).

Anyway its enough to make a mockery of a law against same sex marriage (esp. as there isn't a definition of gender/sex that would correctly assign people).

Emps

To answer the question 'Who gets the money? ':

Simple. Neither one will be happy, so it's fair to assume the person who the court rules against will always appeal the decision. After everythings said and done, nearly all the money will goto legal fees and these two won't receive a red cent. The way it should be, now if I can only finish up college and get into law school so I can cash in on these people ...

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cheers.jay