Preserved Topic: Dinosaur Adventure Land! (or, how the Creationists explain the Dinosaurs) (Page 5 of 9)

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Anyone who doesn't believe aliens exist, to me is someone completely out of touch with reality. Whether they abduct people or not is a different story altogether. That statement angered me so.

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Well, I could say whoever doesn't believe Jesus was God, is completely out of touch with reality. Right?

Jesus indeed was the greatest ET that ever lived if you really think about it. God coming down and making himself human.

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The difference is, any tangible evidence of aliens would be quickly COVERED UP instead of 'documented' and released to the public. Whereas any "evidence" of jesus christ is quickly exploited and blown up by the media. There is absolutely NO difference in the assertion of UFO sightings/abductions and that of Jesus.

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Coverup? This doesn't make sense Sanzen. There are billions of people on this planet and they do not have the technology to cover up an ET or spacecrafts if aliens chose to manifest themselves to random people. This is the age of video cameras and digital cameras. Where are the aliens pics.

Haha, they are everywhere Jade. Ever heard of Roswell?


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Roswell...

DL... the point is, UFO/Alien sightings/crashings are about as credible as the accounts of Jesus Christ.


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OK DL-44. Maybe I will give it some thought if I see a video pic of an alien walking on water and at least one eyewitness.

(Edited by jade on 05-26-2004 21:20)

Do you have a "video pic" of jesus walking across water, and an eyewitness you can talk to?


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Sanzen, the debate used to be about whether the New Testament documents were well supported historically. It is generally agreed that they are very well supported so now the debate has shifted to whether or not what is claimed in them actually happened. That is an ongoing debate and in all probability will continue for long after you and I are worm food.

I remember the late Carl Sagan stating that there was not a shred of physical evidence for the existence of extraterrestial life visiting this planet. I neither assume aliens exist nor do I assume they don't. When it comes to this question, I am agnostic. I am waiting for the evidence. I'll be fine either way it turns out.

I disagree that the evidence for aliens and the accounts in the New Testament are on the same level. I understand they are both disputed but I think it's rather glib to view them the same.

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Sazen,

Well, of course not. I hope you do know the technology was not advanced in the times of Jesus. Too bad he didn't chose the 20th century to make an appearance then we wouldn't be debating about it now, would we. But you never know he might be here already just in hiding till its time for the second coming debut. But there were eyewitnesses when he walked on water and they wrote about it in the gospels and millions do believe it.

(Edited by jade on 05-26-2004 21:57)

jade, if he came today we would most certainly be having the debate. The gospels tell us that even many of the people who witnessed his miracles didn't believe him! And if you really believed Christ was who he claimed to be, do think you would have him crucified?

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OK DL-44. Maybe I will give it some thought if I see a video pic of an alien walking on water and at least one eyewitness.

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I can't even fathom where this statement comes from, or why it's directed at me?

And BTW, if you want such a video, I'm sure it can be produced rather easily.

As to whether we would be debating anything if jesus were to be here today instead of 2000 years ago? You're right - we wouldn't. Why? Because the stories surrounding him would be much easier to disprove as simple gossip and legend if he were here today, and we would probably never even hear of him.

(Edited by DL-44 on 05-26-2004 22:35)

No. I wouldn't have him crucified. What kind of question is that? I would of wanted to be Simeon, who helped him carry his cross. Yes, your right, there would be unbelievers if he walked the planet today. But today with the technology we have Jesus would be more accessable to the masses and his miracles would be on a grander scale. And lets not rule out that this might be his intention in the very near future. And I await his coming.

(Edited by jade on 05-26-2004 22:43)

jade, do you live your life in a perpetual "defense mode"? I was not saying YOU would have him crucified. I was making the point that the men who did have him crucified never would have done so if they truly believed he was the Son of God. Some of the men who did have him brought up on charges had probably witnessed some of his miracles. That was all I was trying to say.

DL,

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Because the stories surrounding him would be much easier to disprove as simple gossip and legend...

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Do I detect a hint of pre-judgement there? I'm pretty sure you're not saying you *know* they are made up.

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As I've said before, I accept as fact that there is no god and that the legends of Jesus are nothing more than the same type of exagerations that have constantly surrounded our mythological figures.

Now, to say that I accept it as fact is not to say that I present it to you to as fact.

It's a personal thing. As far as I am concerned, I know it. But I would not push that acceptance on others.

I have also said, and maintain now, that I know there is no god, as surely as any christian knows there is one.

=)

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It's a personal thing. As far as I am concerned, I know it. But I would not push that acceptance on others.

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you have my utmost respect if this is indeed true
this is, IMHO, the correct Christian attitude
sad to say, most "Christians" don't get it

by the way, this talk about walking on water reminds me of a poem i wrote a couple of years ago.

(known)

i walked on water today
no great miracle
just one of those things people can't explain
or else choose to ignore
but nobody saw
like a tree in the forest
falling on deaf ears
can you hear me?

i fell from the sky and shed my wings
became a fool with nothing to lose
nothing more than a vision
feeding on the apple of my eye
can you see me?

the pathway is covered with stones
bruised heels ache
like nail-scarred hands slapping the thighs
or reaching out to touch you
can you feel me?

wounded spirits walk alone through quicksand
yet never lonely

outcydr, I'm digesting your poem. I can't get any feedback into words at the moment but thanks very much for sharing that.

DL-44, I honestly have never heard you put your position like that before. I have no doubt you have told us but I had missed it. I completely understand it and am very pleased that you put it so succinctly and honestly. I think if you were to substitute all the "no god" stuff with "God" stuff, I could almost use it as a template for my own position

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jamie - brilliantly put.

Out of curiosity - if you look at your beliefs, and it's consequences for life/death/beyond, and you look at the basic Xian belief, and it's consequences for life/death/beyond, could you agree that we have far greater impetus for broadcasting our belief set to others? Additionally, do you feel that xians have no place 'evangelising' to you, or is you opinion on their right to do this purely dependent on their technique (i.e. ramming down your throat vs intellectual debate)?

Jade - i can't help but feel that you seem to be missing the point of some of these posts at times, or at least taking them as far more hostile than they were intended. Pardon my rudeness, but it could be beneficial to the conversations here if you were to read each post a few times over before replying, and perhaps read your own reply a couple of times over before posting it. This is just a suggestion, of course - it's an open forum, and you're welcome to contribute as you see fit.

reitsma

To answer you, WebShaman,

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Well, White hawk, what do you believe? You don't believe in God, and you don't accept Evolution...

Then how do you explain how things became as they now are?

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Perhaps we were all produced in a massive lab used during the exodus from Mars. The Garden of Eden was, in fact, comparable to an incubation chamber. Once the first humans started to breed, they were released onto the freshly terra-formed planet Earth (cast out of the comfortable and controlled conditions of the Eden lab).

Or perhaps not...

Anyway, to answer your second question - the reason why things are the way they are now is all the fault of the politicians and religious leaders. What that has to do with what I believe in though, I really don't know.

_______________________________

Seek not truth with deceitful intent...
...for that way lies the seed of dissent.
_______________________________

Hardly informative, and as answer...well, so be it. I suppose that many might "bail out" in response to such a question. In all honesty, I had hoped that you would have done your honest best to answer.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

I certainly understand that when a person truly beleives that someone is going to hell, they have a good reason - and perhaps even an obligation - to share their viewpoint with them.

But unfortunately a great majority of christians seem to take the telemarketer approach, and politely telling them that you're not interested doesn't work - you have to get to the point of hanging up on them or arguing like an idiot.

Of course I've found that the same types of tricks that make telemarketers stop calling tend to stop people from evangelizing as well (you now...start talking dirty to them, inform them of your plans to board the 'mother ship' when it arrives and invite them to be your soulmate on the ultimate voyage, hail the almighty satan [aka your neighbor's pug 'sparky']....that kind of thing )

I'm always up for a good debate, even an argument, about such issues. But too often they end up going down a very shallow route that just doesn't seem to suit the subject matter (ie 'why don't you just give jesus a try'...like jesus is some new fad diet pill....).

I hate telemarketers...

imo evangelization is an area the church (using "church" as a generic word for western christianity) fails at pretty miserably. there are instances where a person hears a hellfire and damnation sermon at just the right time and commits their life to christ, and there also individuals i've heard that i believe are meant to be speaking messages like this (i remember seeing one speaker in particular where people literally ran to the altar, non-christian and christian alike). at the same time i don't think the majority of conversions happen that way, most people when "told" what they need to be doing or not be doing react rather negatively.

for me personally the people that i've had the biggest effect on are those that i see every day at work or wherever, those that have a chance to see me in my daily life and notice that i do live my life differently than most people. once a trust and respect has been established you start earning the right to speak into someone else's life and it's not preaching anymore, it's caring about what they're going thru and speaking as a concerned friend. God has given me some amazing opportunities to share what He's done in my life thru those situations and really affect people in a positive way.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Evangelism is a mutant step-child of "church" - you know as well as I that the two can't truly be compared...


Fig - what you say is true of most Christians I run across these days. Proselytization is not as widely practiced as it once was.

However, what DL said is still valid. There are several groups of Christians who are all about making sure the world knows that their brand of Christianity is "The One and Only" and are not above the persisitence it takes to annoy the hell out of otherwise uncommitted folk for the glorified purpose of adding to their ranks.

I prefer the strong, silent type myself! (it's much more convincing!)

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However, what DL said is still valid. There are several groups of Christians who are all about making sure the world knows that their brand of Christianity is "The One and Only" and are not above the persisitence it takes to annoy the hell out of otherwise uncommitted folk for the glorified purpose of adding to their ranks.

I prefer the strong, silent type myself! (it's much more convincing!)

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Bodhi,

You have to think that if the evangelizers like, Peter, Paul, Matt, Mark, John, etc and the millions of Christians that followed kept silent and to themselves Chrisitianity would not be what it is today. Its because they opened their mouths and very not afraid to speak the truth of Jesus Christ even in the face of adversity that Christianity today is the largest denomiation in the world. In the face of many obstacles in the current state of the world today, the ministry of Jesus gives hope to many because someone shares and doesn't keep silent. In the name of Christianity, even if non-Christians whine about proselyters, followers will always be their brother's keeper, even if they non-believers don't want a keeper. And here in the US, studies show that in numbers, more people are converting to Christianity that any other religion.

bodhi, what do you mean about evangelism not being compared to church? I want to make sure I understand what you're saying before I respond to what I think you said.

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jade - this is true, it IS important to 'preach' the message, but the old cliche still rings true: Actions speak louder than words.
If a church organisation spreads the news of God's perfect justice, and Jesus' perfect love, yet shelters its priests, who have abused children, from the law, which message do you think will speak louder?

A saying I once heard, which seems to make sense to me, is that 'you may be the only bible those around you get to read'.

reitsma

the only time you'll ever hear me quote a saint:

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Preach the gospel at all times. Use words when necessary. - St. Francis of Assisi

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chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

If only the church would spend less effort making golden idols...er, I mean...statues, of Francis, and heed his words and actions more, it would be a much better organization.

^Hear, hear! Amen to that, DL.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

i don't think anyone here would argue that. i certainly wouldn't.

there's only so much i can do about what a church does tho, all i can do is hopefully affect those that i come into direct contact with. whether that includes you guys i'm not quite sure yet

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Ok - additional clarification:
Evangelism in terms of the loud, fundamentalist preachers who insist that they can save your soul for the meager cost of, let's say, your entire savings sent to them in the form of a cashiers check made out to them personally?

It's not the spreading of the "Word" that I have problems with, it's the methods that some people use to do it.

My comment was a little tongue in cheek, I admit.

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Its because they opened their mouths and very not afraid to speak the truth of Jesus Christ even in the face of adversity that Christianity today is the largest denomiation in the world.

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That, and a large part the result of the threat of death during the Inquisition...
(sorry, is that cynical?)

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It's not the spreading of the "Word" that I have problems with, it's the methods that some people use to do it.

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The main goal is that it be effective. The number of different ways we should evangelize is only limited by the number of different ways people require to be evagelized. The "church" has been far too inflexible on how to spread the word since its inception if you ask me.

Too many have confused the "church" with Xianity. Christ did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, he came to call all humans back into a relationship with Himself and the Father. The body of Christ is the church but that body can take many different forms just as there are many different parts of the human body.

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That, and a large part the result of the threat of death during the Inquisition... (sorry, is that cynical?)

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I'll assume it is your goal to be accurate. What has brought the Xian faith to this day is what has happened. In the last 2000 years many things have been done in the name of Christ that have been atrocities. But at the same time far more things have been done in His name that have been angelic. All that matters is that we do what is right with what we've been given, we don't have any control over anything else so we leave that to God.

Thanks for clarifying, bodhi23. It's a good thing I waited to hear your response before commenting because I thought I was going to have to go into a long diatribe about how there is no Xianity without evangelism.

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If only the church would spend less effort making golden idols...er, I mean...statues, of Francis, and heed his words and actions more, it would be a much better organization.

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DL, You still have a misconception of what God refers to as "idols." The golden calf in Exodus has symbolic meaning. Anything or person that takes you away from God is an idol. Statues of saints and Mary or Jesus reflect you to think of good the person did. To emulate or strive for goodness of a noteworthy person is the aim. What about the Lincoln memorial or State of Liberty? What about wooden crosses people wear around their necks to symoblize they are Chrisitan. Is this idolotry? In you way of thinking, isn't this idol worship? People you hold dear to you probably are in photo frames in your office or at home. Isn't this idol worship also.

I do happen to know many people who try to live by the famous words St. Francis on a daily basis.
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is dispair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so
much seek to be consoled, as to console; to
be understood, as to understand; to be loved,
as to love. For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and
it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

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a church organisation spreads the news of God's perfect justice, and Jesus' perfect love, yet shelters its priests, who have abused children, from the law, which message do you think will speak louder?

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Yes. Blame the whole faithful on the actions of a few.
Thats like saying blame all the German people and they should be accountable for the ALL the actions & decisions of Hitler and his henchmen.
All demoniations have abuses. Most don't come to light in the news, because they are small fry compared to the CC. Being that we are the most hated and resented faith besides Islam, we get picked on most. And it makes good prime time news. Protestants & non-christians preachers abuse children too. When have you heard a Baptist preacher(s) on prime time news for abusing children. Just about never. Its local news. But it certaintly does happen.

Double post.

(Edited by jade on 05-29-2004 01:21)

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Yes. Blame the whole faithful on the actions of a few.

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If we were only talking about the "few", and if people like you weren't constantly trying to make excuses for such horrendous abuses, then you might have a point.

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All demoniations have abuses. Most don't come to light in the news, because they are small fry compared to the CC

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Any large group of people has it's abusive and predatory members. What's important is what kind of safegaurds are put in place, and how such things are dealt with once they are discovered. Such abuses in the catholic church have been exposed for a *very* long time - several decades now. And yet, it's only in the last couple of years that the publicity is widespread. So you can take that argument and....well, I won't spell it out.

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When have you heard a Baptist preacher(s) on prime time news for abusing children. Just about never. Its local news. But it certaintly does happen.

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One of the main reasons you don't hear about it as often is simply because it doesn't happen as often.
One of the main reasons it is so prevalent in the catholic preisthood is the position of absolute power that is associated with a priest. People are taught to look at a priest as somehow better than human.

You also have the whole celibacy thing, which is 100% counter to human instinct, and is simply *begging* for trouble.

A man who is not "allowed" to have sex, left alone in positions of strong authority with young children who are by the nature of their religion and position disinclined to tell about their abuses.

And people are somehow shocked when things come to light....

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Protestants & non-christians preachers abuse children too. When have you heard a Baptist preacher(s) on prime time news for abusing children. Just about never. Its local news. But it certaintly does happen.

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It most certainly does happen. And if the local churches cover it up and keep the abusers in a place of leadership they deserve every bit as much of the scorn the RC has received.

I just heard about a case in a local parish here in California where one of its priests was found guilty of molesting some children. The local congregation was divided over whether or not they were going to welcome him back to his former job once he did his time and counseling. I think 10% of the congregation wouldn't have it and are going to leave the church because the other 90% want him back as a priest

The man deserves forgiveness and healing and the church is the right place to receive it but to put him back in a position of leadership? There are some serious problems with the moral education in that congregation if you ask me. I think this is somehow prevalent in the RC at large as well. This man should never be allowed to hold a position of leadership in the church ever again after such a breach of trust. There is a big difference between forgiveness and healing on the one hand and having leaders that are not "above reproach" as the Bible requires.

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DL
Well, you know to become a RC priest men must take a vow of celibacy. No one is twisting the arms of these men to accept the rules of the priesthood. Some can't follow their commitment and some can. Priest do not have magic powder on them that makes them resist tempations. They are HUMAN like you and me. When you marry you make a vow to remain true to your spouse too. Where we commit our lives to a person, they commit their lives to Jesus Christ as spouse like nuns do. They try hard not to break their vows, like married persons do. Statistics are that more married persons commit adultery once or more in their lifetimes. To think the religious need to have sexual intimacy with other persons to exist in this world means your not seeing the whole picture. Many other persons besides the religious make a decision to be celibate. The vow of celibacy issue in the preisthood is not the problem. These priest commited these horrible crimes because they were and maybe still are bad people. Its the inner rot that exist in the priest, who has no business being in the priesthood maybe in the first place. No. Their should of never been a cover up. Or these priest should not have access to the ministry that involves children.

Since the scandal, the RC diocese mandates all teachers who are involved in religious education must take a required course to better serve for the protection of children and our protection as well. In the films we have watched, which are very hard & depressing to view, children are being interviewed. School teachers, parents, friends fo the parents, realtives, and even siblings are guilty of sexual abuse also. So the abusers cover a wide range of our society. In one story an eleven year old student, (girl) was being abused by her teacher (woman). Even women are abusers. The statistics are sexual abuse happens more in the inner families. I, myself was abused by a male teacher in high school. I was just too innocent and naive at the time to complain. It wasn't real bad, but all the same, scary. I would try to skip his class when I could. I know these children become emotionally handicapped, and my heart goes out to them.
In the scandal of the church, just like people have the desire to purify themselves from sin and make them better persons, so does the church have the desire to purge itself from the evil of sin and make her a more holy instituiton to better serve the faithful. She, the church which is made up of many people worldwide may have been wounded with scandal, but she/we are healing and will become a better church for it.

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Priest do not have magic powder on them that makes them resist tempations. They are HUMAN like you and me.

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That's the point I am making Jade. They are only human, and yet they are given a position with more-than-human expectations. They are also given a status that allows them to very easily abuse people's trust - either in small simple ways, or in the terrible, terrible ways we're talking about here.

It's just a bad setup - period.

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Even women are abusers

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Well of course....

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The statistics are sexual abuse happens more in the inner families.

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And that has nothing at all to do with this subject. I understand your point, of course, but to include that info really just attempts to trivialize the problem at hand.

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I, myself was abused by a male teacher in high school. I was just too innocent and naive at the time to complain. It wasn't real bad, but all the same, scary. I would try to skip his class when I could.

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I am truly sorry, and I hope that when you say "it wasn't real bad", that means it didn't go as far as the cases we're discussing...
As far as being too naive to to complain - that's exactly the problem. People with authority - teachers, priests, cops, parents, etc - are in a position where people are either afraid to report, or don't think they even have a right to.

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o does the church have the desire to purge itself from the evil of sin and make her a more holy instituiton to better serve the faithful.

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Well, they better start proving that.

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many people worldwide may have been wounded with scandal, but she/we are healing and will become a better church for it.

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I don't know what to make of that. Part of me says that's just a very naive statement, part of me says that is really twisted and just a further attempt to trivialize and sweap under the carpet the horrible things that have happened, and that have been happening for a very long time...

(Edited by DL-44 on 05-29-2004 23:40)

There we go....

Christianity --> Trust --> Abuse --> Pain

hahaha. Joking.

But, as Fox Mulder would say "Trust No one,' and look how he turned out: Nine seasons on one of the most famous TV shows of all time.


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(Edited by Sanzen on 05-30-2004 06:05)

[i]

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As far as being too naive to to complain - that's exactly the problem. People with authority - teachers, priests, cops, parents, etc - are in a position where people are either afraid to report, or don't think they even have a right to.

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This is true. I was afraid. But one thing you have to consider is "shame". I felt shame. Victims feel this even though they are innocent and this keeps them from saying anything. You only think of yourself and not other future victims I guess unitl you come to terms with the abuse or mature.

(Edited by jade on 06-01-2004 21:04)

jade - i think you did a good job of missing my point there.

I was simply using an example to show you that actions speak louder than words. Some actions (such as abuse) can drown out a century of well chosen words. Thankfully, many actions help to support those words too.
It may not be fair, it may not be accurate, but yes, people can blame the whole faithful on the actions of a few. In fact, a person could shun the whole idea of Christianity simply because of your actions. Of course, they could also embrace it. My point was simply to emphasise the importance of remembering this.

reitsma