Preserved Topic: Dinosaur Adventure Land! (or, how the Creationists explain the Dinosaurs) (Page 2 of 9)

Well you can interpret everything as loosely as possible and you can get around any real solid opinion. I have my own opinion because I take the bible literally. I take darwin's writings literally. Taken literally these things cannot go exist. In my opinion.


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therefore you have very poor result and strategy for debating/arguing, since you blable gibberish
that doesn't makes sense and shows that you have no absolute idea what you are talking about. =)

ask anyone around, they will say the samething.

Ruski!!! Your gay devil guy is taking us all to horizontal scroll bar hell, size him down a bit if you don't mind


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Haha, I didn't know this was the 'who can be the biggest asshole' competition.


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Sanzen, how can you take the bible literally when you don't believe a word of it? I'm confused Have you even read it? Were you ever going to show me where it says that a christian must find his own way? If you know where it is, I would really like to see it because I don't recall any such verse.

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If you can't take one part of the bible literally, how are you supposed to take any of it literally.

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I hear this a lot from non-believers and believers alike. I'm very sorry to put it this way, but it is an asenine approach to understanding what is written in that book. For example, when Christ says, "I am the vine; you are the branches." Does anyone in their right mind think that he is a plant and I am a branch of that plant? It's absurd to think that every single word written in that book is to be taken literally.

So how do you know what should be and what shouldn't be read that way? By THINKING!!! Study study study is the only way to know what that book is about. We need to know about culture, history, writing styles, etc. All of these things allow us to know whether or not Genesis says that the world was actually created in 6 days, blah blah blah. Is it really too much to ask for people to exert some effort when discussing works of antiquity like the bible?


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Bugimus, you're truly the only other person who is trying to have a civilized argument, and I respect that. If I said anything particularly offensive to christians it was because I got a little heated, and I was trying to have a real discussion.

That being said, I read the bible some time ago... and I haven't read it in a very good while, I couldn't quote you what verse it is from. Maybe it's just a personal belief of mine or some of my christian friends that I kinda picked up.

There is a truly broad line between metaphors and the 6 day creation myth, or noah's ark or some of the other stories.. Those aren't metaphors.. they are major portions of the bible, and I really dont see how you can digest them any other way than literally.


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I'm not saying that science proves there is no god.

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Science (evolution) says that there is no God. Anyone who says otherwise is demeaning it's value. That is the BASIS of science in itself;

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"Evolution, in any of it's accepted flavors, does not prove that god does not exist"

Yes, yes it does.

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So....ok...

That aside, evolutionary theory still does not preclude "god" in any way shape or form. PERIOD.

It certainly does preclude a variety of 'fundamentalist' faiths. But that's a far cry from precluding the concept of god.

DL, by the time i made those comments we were strictly talking about Christian God and Evolution. Not other religions.


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And it was as simple as that - it turned from that to me attacking the christians and people who dont even know what satanists stand for attacking me

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actually, the only two christians i'm aware of in this thread, bugs and myself, haven't said a negative word towards you.

as far as taking the bible literally, i take the bible as truth but not necessarily literally at all times, it needs to be read in context like anything else. i'm not entirely sure why the seven days of creation absolutely must be seven 24 hour earth days when the earth didn't even exist for several of them...

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

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DL, by the time i made those comments we were strictly talking about Christian God and Evolution. Not other religions.

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Ok. how does that change anything?

because christianity is a fundamentalist religion, whether it is practiced fundamentally or not.


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AHAHA...man you are really funny fellow..

be it Christianity or Islam or Judaism or Hinduism , it doesn't matter.
They can be either practiced fundamentaly or not. It's all up to individual.

And judging from the replays you have said, you sure don't know much about religions and my best advice would be to try learn somethign about them before ever saying anything.

You have contradicted yourself in numerous ways and claimed plenty of incorrect descriprtions of christianity. =)

then why do you keep fighting against me?


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I do not fight "against" you, I simply point out where you are inaccurate and where you are making blind prejudice against others faith. =)

i dont see you.... pointing out anything.... just hurling random insults at me.


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ohh fuck....then you will have to re-read everything from the top buddy boy...=)

and please stop showing how much of an idiot you really are...we don't wanna see it anymore.

mmmm name calling. where's a mad-sci when you need one.


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InSiDeR,

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The theory that humans have evolved from apes, using the same scientific fact that we know as evolution, is a theory.

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is just not accurate. Mankind did NOT evolve from Apes. So this "theory" is not very well supported. Rather, Evolution teaches, that Mankind and Apes had a common ancestor.

That is a huge difference.

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*sigh*

ok whatever

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

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*sigh*

ok whatever

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insider - the distinction WS pointed out to you is an *extremely* important one, and one that a great many people have somehow failed to recognize, which has led to much of the bullshit surrounding the evolution/creationism "feud" so to speak.

It's not a "whatever" kind of issue....

And yes, as Ini said, there are many prominent scientists who are also faithfully religious. There are many religious figures who are very scientifically motivated.

Only when you try to overgeneralize, focus too narrowily, or rely on pseudo-science do you come into real conflict between religion and science.

Now if you're going to talk about taking the bible literally - what version of the bible are we to use? With so many varied translations and interpretations, the only way to get the real message is to use the original texts. But....even then, there are many things that are vague and open to interpretation. And of course, who's to say which are actually the original texts? Most of the actual originals simply don't exist.

How are we to take as the literal, absolute word of god what has been filtered and translated and re-translated by numerous men? How are we to rely on the choices the catholic church made for which texts should and shouldn't be included in the bible in the first place?

That's the equivelent of the pseudo-science you use to claim sicence has proven god does not exist.

It's *all* interpretation.

There is no absolute.

I apologuise. I didn't mean to make it seam like I just shrugged it off.

I think religion (or more specifically, deism) has no place in an enlightened society.

I also think that Darwin had a good idea, then got carried away.



If I think God AND Evolution are bunk - what DO I believe?

Well, White hawk, what do you believe? You don't believe in God, and you don't accept Evolution...

Then how do you explain how things became as they now are?

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You know? I didn't even take a look at the site that began this thread since I came in mid way. I just did and, wow.

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What about dinosaurs? Did they live with Adam and Eve?
Did Noah take them on the ark?
The dinosaur question is dealt with for over 2 hours on my video-tape #3 of the creation seminar series. To summarize briefly: Dinosaurs were made the sixth day with the rest of the animals. Noah took them on the ark (probably young ones). They have always lived with man. After the flood many died from the climate changes and from man's hunting. They were called dragons for many centuries. (The word dinosaur was just invented in 1841.) A few small dinosaurs may still be alive today in remote parts of the world. There have been over 20,000 reported sightings of dinosaur like creatures in this century. A few pictures and stories are on my web site.

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and

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If there was really a world-wide flood where are all the bones of the humans that drowned?
I believe there are few human fossils for several reasons.

God made the world full of plants and animals but only two people. 1600 years later the world was still full of plants and animals but still not full of people. There were not as many of them to be drowned.

Men are smarter than animals (That is, some men), so he would figure out a way to avoid drowning until the last possible minute by making makeshift rafts or holding to floating logs and tend to be deposited on top rather than in the sediments. Therefore he would not fossilize. For example, millions of bison were slaughtered in the west a century ago, yet few, if any, fossilized. They were left on top to rot, bones and all.

Since so many researchers have the preconceived (and false) idea that man has been evolving from small and dumb to big and smart they may tend to not even recognize and properly identify bone fragments of humans that may have been huge by today?s standards. Their prejudice is that ancient man was smaller.

In spite of the above problems, Marvin Lubenow, an expert on fossil humans and author of Bones of Contention (available from CSE) says that about 4000 human fossil remains have been found.

The evolutionist has a serious problem with this same question. If man has really been here for millions of years there should be many thousands if not millions of fossils of their bones like we have of the animals. The "where are the bones?" question is really a question for the evolutionist to answer if he expects all the taxpayers to support his religion in the school system.

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This really depresses me I think this is the type of bending over backwards type of logic that results from insisting a literal read of the creation account in Genesis. If you are constrained to that reading, then there is really no other way to deal with so much of the data we have about earth's history but to just lose all credibility with anyone that values clear thinking.


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This one is for you DL-44, InSiDeR, etc.

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God Doesn't Believe In Atheists

God does not believe in atheists.
His presence from creation is quiet clear.
God does not believe in atheists.
It takes a fool to tell him he?s not here.


God believes atheists can get born again
And become a new creation,
But they?d best admit the world around them first
And ask for their salvation
But to only cry, ?Recycle!? is the worst.


God believes atheists do have certain rights
To seek and search the scriptures
It says, ?Come now, let us reason? that?s for them.
But it doesn?t give them reason to
Make up what God is saying
Until it?s no true benefit to them.


Blee dop, sklee dop, sklee dilly dilly
Bah donna bee on a Saturday night.
If that sounded like nonsense to you too,
Those schools have got some books for you.

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I guess that will show you guys! HA!

I need an aspirin


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Yeah, you need something.

Those guys also say kangaroos live in the Middle East, and Apple Computers is a front for communism.

Bugs, things like that make chrisitanity look very bad....it's sad
appearently, I have to say it again...only in America

(Edited by Ruski on 05-14-2004 16:32)

Whoo-boy! When a thread degenrates, it really does degenerate!

Sanzen, not to offend, but I haven't seen such a clear case of close-mindedness in a long time. I can see there, towards the bottom of the conversation that you back-pedal a little to cover some of your earlier outbursts, but you really should go back and re-read the first part of the coversation. You don't come across as a person willing to discuss/debate on a rational level.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Some of those beliefs include telling others about your beliefs: called proselytization. There are so many denominations of Christianity, how can you lump all forms of their faith into one narrow set of thoughts? Beliefs are totally varied across every sect of Christianity... from fundamentalist creationists (frequently Baptist), to the completely liberal sects like the Episcopalians. And even within sects there is division of beliefs. Some Baptists believe in evolution... some Episcopalians believe in creationism. This might seem paradoxical, but again, everyone's entitled to their own beliefs. Spirituality and belief is intensely personal. Just like you don't want to be told what to think or believe, neither does anyone else.

But if you want to state your opinion, that's perfectly ok. However, to respond to a post in this fashion:

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Anyways, I'm EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY tired of christians. In particular, the christians who claim that evolution and creationism can co-exist. It's ok if a christian wants to claim this, BUT: Science says NO. It's not a two-way relationship. Christians can believe in some kind of macro-evolution, but evolution says that god doesn't exist. This is how you know SOMETHING is wrong. I have christians who harrass me daily and try to convert me. This is just more of their bullshit, trying to run the world. It disgusts me.

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is nothing short of inflammatory, however willing you are to discuss the topic rationally. You have to expect that others will respond to that post in the manner we see above... there's nothing in it that invites a rational discussion of the matter...

That said, the original site posted, struck me with a weird mixture of amusement and distress... These people really seem to be reaching far to explain dinosaurs in the context of the Bible. (that's probably the understatement of the thread...) I did get a chuckle from it!

Sanzen, while it may not be directly stated in the THEORY of evolution, notice it does not say law, it is entirely possible that while a god created a starting set of creatures those creatures eventually evovled into what we see today and will continue evolving. If it was called or ever becomes the LAW of evolution then you may perhaps have a slight chance of being right, but it will never become law. For it to become law we would first have to prove that god does or does not exist. If it is proved that god does exist then science will be forced to except the bible as a scientific theory *now theres an oxymoron that can't happen* if it is proved that god doesn't exist, as you an atheist who takes the bible literally, have tried to prove then the bible would be seriously discredited and evolution would become scientific law.
*examples of ways combinations could work:
fruit after the tree is planted it to continues to grow by itself to produce fruit by itself. Evolution is nothing more than an extremely slow growth process leading to a better product. (Please do not try to use the Galapagos Finch Theory for evolution it can work as a combination example also it it will make you sound stupid.

Also I may add that a discussion and or debate which is what IS going on here doesn't have to be completely sterile of emotion in fact it makes it all the more interesting. Please clarify your meaning of civilized since to me it doesn't mean people must agree with one person or otherwise they are wrong.

You said that you dont shun religion you only shun christianity. How does that work monkey-boy? Christianity is a major RELIGION in fact it is the worlds largest RELIGION.

Also you seem to be truly paranoid by assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is attacking you. Ruski was never attacking you as he stated earlier in the posts he was only pointing out contradictions and as you put it even earlier playing devil's advocate. But of course you wouldn't have seen this through your bigotry (if you need the definition just ask)

However, I do agree with you that people should not press their beliefs upon others who do not express interest in them. Unfortunately you seem to have made you self into a hypocrit by trying to push science on everybody else in this forum.You also did this by when you added emotion to the debate, you allowed yourself the excuse of getting a little heated but nobody else and when others added emotion you said that it was wrong and 'uncivilized'. Have you ever heard of the term Heated Debate in case you haven't the definition of it is a discussion between two or more parties of opposing sides who are debating a topic that all sides feel strongly about. By making the statements that you did you obviously created a heated debate, thus creating your own monster. If you can't handle your own monster get out of the laboratory. So please the next time you debate keep these things in mind and try not to:
1.contradict yourself so much
and
2. give your opposition so much ammunition against you.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

You really cant take the bible (which im guessing you haven't read and don't plan to) literally because it is chock full of PARABLES AND METAPHORS.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Bugimus I am no longer an atheist, thankyou.

Really?!? I'm very sorry for missing that, but what are you now? I'm dying to know


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Guess!

Sanzen YOU HAVE BEEN CAUGHT! You say (and/or imply) that you don't believe in any god. You have contradicted youself again. You acted offended early when you accused us of assuming you are a satanist givin the impression that you aren't knowing full well that if you did admit to being a satanist would show that you do believe in a god. To believe in Satan you must believe somewhat in God. Since Satan was thrown down by god for his lust for power. If you or anybody want proof of how I know that Sanzen is a satanist look at the thread titled Satan, 3rd page 22 thread from the top tenth from the bottom. Where he states and i quote:
I am a satanist.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

Yea that was one of the things I hated when I was an atheist, telling someone 'I don't believe in God,' and then almost everytime the person I'm talking to said 'So like do you believe in Satan or something?'

...

I said in THIS THREAD that I am a satanist. You, sir, have no clue what you're talking about.

Most satanists do not believe in Satan as a "god". And I never said I didn't believe in any god. And even if I did believe in a god, it doesn't mean I can't argue against it. I do not believe in a Christian God, NOR DOES THAT IMPLY that Satanists believe in the christian depiction of Satan. So i'm sorry to say that your investigative explorations have only proven that you didn't really read this thread and you were just jumping on the bandwagon to attack me.


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There has been no 'bandwagon to attack' you sanzen.....I think you've got a bit of a chip on that shoulder.

One person that I can see was on the attack. Everyone other than you and he have simply been trying to have a conversation....

You've made sure to not address most of the points people have brought up during the conversation though, instead feeding into the "attacking" nonsense further.

And, though I don't see the point either way, yes - you did state in the 'satan' thread that you are a satanist.

(Edited by DL-44 on 05-15-2004 02:12)

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You've made sure to not address most of the points people have brought up during the conversation though, instead feeding into the "attacking" nonsense further

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which ones haven't I address. I explained bugimus' question. And as far as I know I answered everything else.

Yes. I did say I am a satanist in the Satan thread; and I said I'm a satanist in this thread. Satanist is a generalized term - I guess you'd say I'm more of a humanist. But Satanism is a little more explanative.


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correct me if im wrong (or if you dare) but its my understanding that satanists believe that god is the bad guy for being a holier than thou bigoted asshole and satan is only trying to bring him down off is high horse-i.e. satan is really the good guy

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Guess!

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christian?