Topic awaiting preservation: Let us talk about Prayer. (Page 4 of 5)

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Ehtheist said:

I assure you Fig, I don't find your situation humourous."All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to thepolitician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, RomanPoet (94 - 55 BCE)

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that was horrible...but somewhat funny in my current narcotic-laden state

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I wonder if Gideon will ever issue a rational statemtnet in his life?

I guess we can all hope.

I remember the time the exorcist movie came out the first time and people were just scared to death of the devil and the movie drove them back to their churches. I myself, was so scared of the actual face of evil after I saw that movie. I had to sleep with my sisters that nite. And I remember asking God how he allows such scary evil entity to manifest itself to scare mankind. As I was saying this I was walking towards my bedroom. I specifically remember exaclty where I was and the day, Friday and it was nite time. That instant God audibly spoke to me in my ear. And I can remember it as if were yesterday. God said " I allow it so people can believe" This was a gift to me. And I have always understood it. I told my family the next day, because it was so unbelieving. So I know God hears everything the heart desires.

I also experienced in Bracket Station, Texas an apparation with thousands of others. It was a vision of an image that manifested itself to show different apparations to people who were looking at it and the same time but seeing different things. It was on a wall in a lumber yard, where a very holy family lived. One nite the mother noticed a glowing light and went to see what it was an there she saw different images from the same glow. She told neighbors and word got out and soon all the surrounding areas knew about it and came to visit. They had to shut down some streets.. It was on the news and newspaper how it could not be explained. Scientist and numbers of persons tried to figure it out to discredit it but couldn't.
The glow was clear in daytime on a sunny day as well as the nite time. When I went there with my family while I was in line, from a distance I could see a very peculiar blue mist. This color of blue I had never seen before. When I got to the front of the image. I saw three different images from the glow. When I stood to the left I saw an image of the virgin mary bending down looking at a cradle. Rays of light were coming from the cradle. When I moved a little to the middle I saw the whole figure of the virgin standing with a crown of lights coming from her head. These pics you could not see clearly like the features of her face. In this second image she was holding the baby Jesus. And a glow of light was coming from the face. When I was leaving the image, it metamorphisized and I saw a face with brown hair and beard covered by a brown shroud. I figured it was Jesus but I couldnt make out face. It was so unbelievable. I realized God had his reason for allowing that gift for people to see. It was a small town and maybe there were ardent pious people who lived there. Whatever the reason, God didn't have to allow this for people to believe. They believed anyway. But it makes the faith become more alive and we give thanks. Its like God is just checking in to show he is still around

Jade, I've already met such spirits, and I defeated them on the battlefields that they created WITHOUT your god.

The Exorcist is just a movie. I found it to be funny.

Alien scared the living crap out of me though.

If you ever have the unpleasant experience, to experience a war first-hand, I think maybe we might have some grounds to talk on, considering what you think about your god (and how that would change your perspective of things) - in what he allows...or if he even exists. Believe me, he never "checked in" to show that he was around.

Watching a child literally disintergrate in a hail of metal before your eyes certainly blows big holes in one's faith in god.

WS: How can you argue with someone whom God speaks to?

Chris,

Nothing like a good pun to brighten the day. Not to make any cracks, but it sounds as though you currently have a lot on your plate.

Lets us all hope you soon return to full, two-handed typing functionality.

But tell me true, don't you find poor addled people like jade and gid to be a detriment to your side of the discussion?

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

you absolutely kill me jade. you kill me.

a horror movie with half-ass religious tie-ins makes you beleive...




just like "ghost" 'makes you think' about communication with the dead.


lordy lordy lordy...

what do the Superman comics make you feel? Wouldn't it be cool if Jesus could do what superman can do??

Oh DL! Doncha know? It was a documentary!

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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WS: How can you argue with someone whom God speaks to?

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I've known alot of people who have seen and talked to god. LSD has some pretty astounding effects, and so does Peyote.

Years later, when I talk to them again, they normally chalk that up to the influence of the said drugs, and not a real experience.

For people like Jade and Gideon, it is nice to finally get them out in the open, where others can see them.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

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WebShaman said:
LSD has some pretty astounding effects

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Premise: Jade can hear God speak to him and he has witnessed apparitions.
Assumptions: Jade has never done mind expanding drugs, he is not lying, and finally he is not making this up for the sake of controversy

If the premise is true, then he could be a descendant of Jesus and Mary what?s her face. If that?s the case, we should revere him, partake in group genuflection before him, or potentially face the wrath of God.

If this is false, we should consider that Jade is suffering from auditory and visual hallucinations ? signs of psychosis. If that?s the case, than rather than contempt he deserves our empathy. He is also worthy of being a member of this Asylum.

ZD, Jade is a female.

And I was not suggesting that Jade was on drugs, either.

What I am suggesting, is that which one perceives as reality, often is not, for one reason or another.

It could very well be, that Jade did have a spiritual experience. It still does not mean that she saw god. My people believe in many different spirits. It is also taught, that without proper training, one shouldn't try to contact such spirits, or have dealing with them (or at least, not without a guide).

Some of the spirits are malicious, deceiving, tricky, dishonest, and a few are really, really dangerous.

The Demon Bear, for instance, is a very dangerous spirit being. The Crow is a trickster, and often likes to play tricks on the unsuspecting.

Ah, the crow is god. He and his multiple pesonalities are sittinmg in a tree outside my place even as I write this. I'll throw god some bread crumbs.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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Ehtheist said:

Ah, the crow is god.

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I thought the chimpmunk is god.
go figure...

p.s. Who was the Walrus then?


edit: wtf is a chimpmunk?

(Edited by ZaddyDog on 04-18-2005 02:08)

I never claimed I saw God. The face was not clear, but I knew it was Jesus. But many people who were standing around me were looking in the same direction as I but were seeing a different vision. Some were seeing an animated scene.

Ok. Make fun of me. Thats ok. But I am not and have never been delusional. Or have ever been a drug user. But I have been high on life on occasion. But I knew I was going to leave myself wide open with that post. But the post is very true. In my faith, there are many spiritual manifisations to certain persons throughout all of its history. And I say it was God, cause I was asking him, but it could of been by guardian angel replying??


That movie came out around what, 1973? and I was a young teenager. Its spooked adults too and I read somewhere many persons seeked spiritual help because of it.

(Edited by jade on 04-18-2005 15:18)

Amazing! All by rote. Sure you weren't chewing some Jimson weed? Fused ganglia, no obvious sign of volitional mentation.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Yes, it 'spooked' a lot of people.

it was a 'spooky' kind of movie...

Anyone needing 'spiritual help' or 'hearing the voice of god' as a result of seeing it quite obviously had plenty of problems before hand for which they might require such help (and more likely are in need of psychological help).

That is not said to 'make fun', it is said becuase that is my honest opinion, and one that any person with an understaning of the workings of the human brain would come to as well.

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Anyone needing 'spiritual help' or 'hearing the voice of god' as a result of seeing it quite obviously had plenty of problems before hand for which they might require such help (and more likely are in need of psychological help).

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I don't think I need to see a psycharist. But maybe their conscience was bothering them and they don't want to go to this place:

http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/

(Edited by jade on 04-18-2005 19:21)

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I don't think I need to see a psycharist.

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Most crazy people don't think that they are crazy. They normally think that everybody else has a problem, not themselves.

Excellent diagnosis WS. Orderly! The mauve jacket please, for that lovely lady in Texas.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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jade said:
I don't think I need to see a psycharist.

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Probably not.

Just watch out though if the voice that speaks to you suddently tells you :
"go to thee office bearing with thee an AK-47 and strafe wildy but deliberately until thee sendeth all the sinners to hell. I command thee to do my bidding. Let it be so-eth".

I got spooked when i saw Jaws. I never approached the Ocean the same way.
Hell, I don't even approach a swimming pool the same way since I saw that flick.
I just don't view sharks the same way at all.

On the flip side, I didn't, however, ever have the experience of a Great White whisper in my ear.

Similarly, if God were ever to speak to me, I think i would shit my pants.

Right then and there i would probably drop a 15 pound load....i would soil my pants so bad that not even the best dry cleaner this side of the mississippi would be able to reconstruct my undies.
yep, that would scare me pretty bad.

oh, and if you saw jesus and his face wasn't that clear....it could have been the shroud of turin that you saw.

(Edited by ZaddyDog on 04-19-2005 00:41)

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DL-44 said:

book that has been shown to be vastly inaccurate repeatedly?

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By whom?

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DL-44 said:

By whom?

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I can't remember the names, because my memory is bad, but I will find them for you when I have time.

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DL-44 said:

4 accounts of the resurrection

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More than that...Have you read Isaiah recently?

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DL-44 said:

after the 'event' in question, one of which was added onto 'mark' sometime
significantly later after the original ending was deemed not
conclusive enough
by the proto-orthodox christians

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Now i'm really anxious. I'll start considering these things when you produce the source, but until then...

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

There are many sources to go to for that tidbit...it is very widely accepted among biblical scholars that 'Mark' originally ended when the women who went to the tomb were told that Jesus was resurrected ran off scared and told nobody. The rest was tacked on at a later date.

Two excellent sources for this kind of information:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195141830/qid=1113878020/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-7484021-8515003

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385483724/qid=1113877994/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/103-7484021-8515003

No I have not read isaiah recently.
However, as it was written before the time of jesus....I'm afraid it will a little short in providing eyewitnesses to his death...am I missing something? (and no, prophecy and other silliness does not count as 'eyewitness' account...)


{{edit - and as to acts. just a brief snippet for the moment (quoted from the 2nd book listed above, from Thomas Cahill)

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...Luke, who, anxious to present the movement to his readers in the most favorable light, tends to smooth over all rough edges and, in highly colored presentations, to dramatize events that must originally have appeared more commonplace.

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As any good story teller would

(Edited by DL-44 on 04-19-2005 04:55)

and as I have repeatedly pointed out. But DL, the zealot will neither see nor hear anything which might contradict the dogma.

Socialists tend towards the same sort of selective blindness.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Well, of course we've all referred to the gospels that wayn repeatedly. The point of that quote (and my point before hand) is to show that the book of Acts particularly is full of such 'smoothing over' and dramatizing, particularly when it comes to paul/peter.

In this case we can directly observe these things because we also have accounts from paul and peter which cover the same ground from time to time.

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Excellent diagnosis WS. Orderly! The mauve jacket please, for that lovely lady in Texas.

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Wrong diagnosis, but I am lovely.

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and as I have repeatedly pointed out. But DL, the zealot will neither see nor hear anything which might contradict the dogma.

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Not true, but we do see and know by the gift of divine spiriutal intelligence called "the light of wisdom". God cannot be contradicted.

"God cannot be contradicted"

But you don't know that! How could you? Are you saying that your god is unable to contradict himself? I know that god is constantly changing his/her mind in the bible, I think this might even fall inside the definition of contradicting himself. Your book shows god changing and adapting to some of the wants of his people. Keep reading, keep challenging, keep thinking, never stop.

The problem her is that you refuse to think outside the box. Even if you do it simply to humor the individual you are speaking with. But you should at least entertain the opposite viewpoints. I am of the opinion that blind faith isn't faith at all.

If you want to show real faith you will take the time to approach an argument, or a contradiction to your faith and fully explore it. When you have completely this process, and you still have your faith, you will end up having a better understanding of your faith and a firmer faith. When you do not do this you are not showing faith, you are showing a fear, by not even approaching an argument by understanding both side you are showing that you don't have the faith in your religion/god that it will maintain throughout all challenges. This refusal makes your religion weaker, and you appear weaker to those who have their faith and constantly challenge it with new thoughts and ideas.

Dan @ Code Town

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I am of the opinion that blind faith isn't faith at all.

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Warmarge

What makes you think I have never challenged & tested my faith? You have never walked in my shoes. You do not know my life stories, falls, tragedies, etc. I do not live in seclusion and have been affected by doubts. Only when we doubt and are uncertain do we look for meaning and hope and rise above. The thoughts and ideas and views the faith has are so full of truth. I don't have all the pieces to the great big puzzle of life but I am on the right tract. I am absolute and sure that Jesus is the son of the living God and partook in humanity to be one with us as God/Human to redeem us in order to pave to way for us. He will not have us suffer, what God himself did not suffer.

Since you do not know for sure the background of a believer, how would you know and come to a conclusion that they are blind without research. I do explore and read and research for myself. I understand my faith very well. My faith is firm. No weakeness today. Just because a person is a religious believer, doesn't mean they suffer from low intelligence without having thought out why they believe in Jesus. How would you propose they go about getting opposite viewpoints? We, are opposed on a daily basis. You just have to look into the real world and give into weakness of why there is no God? I and many other believers are challenged every day and still we profess faith. Why? Its not because we are narrow minded and clueless. Here at work, I work with 21 district attorneys, all prosecutors, all college educated and beyond. All are Christian. I am sure they took course in phy 1, philoposhies, theology, etc. Here, I see they & myself are exposed to all kinds of evil acts performed against the innocent. Sexual abuse of minors, rape, murder, and all kinds of criminal activity and to boot we have to see pics of the crime scenes. We have one case where 4 teens boys gang raped two young girls, 14 & 16. The horrible way they brutalized these thru testimony was animalistic. The crime pictures were so horrible I wanted to vomit. And I think "Oh my God, how can you allow this" So, I do ask, but then I think and know God is a kind and loving God and this act does not come from God. He is appalled and broken hearted like me, but in a much more deeper way. But, the will of a person overtakes the will of God in this mortal world. I remain focused that this is not his way. I don't take the easy way out and say there is no God. And they, the attorneys, can become bitter, disillusioned and Godless, but they too remain faithful Christians. And this is not out of blindness, this is out of the grace of faith.

<<sigh>> I know it is a mindless exercise, but; if one does all that challenging and study and investigation with the seeds of the illness (religion) within one, one requires a strong mind and an active intellect in order to overcome the decades of brainwashing one has received at the hands of one parents and community.

I intend to offer you no insult in observing that, to my mind, you have not displayed much of either on these threads.

Rather, you portray yourself as many here have described you in a variety of words...a dedicated "zealot". I add to that definition the word "fundamentalist".

I encourage you to look up both words in any good dictionary (not the "Catholic's Approved Definitions" version.

If they do not flatter you, then you may actually be thinking about and challengin the precepts and mythf of your faith.

If you are flattered...my comment about no 'obvious signs of volitional mentation' holds true.

This means you are a puppett.

The poope pulls your strings.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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Ehtheist said:

The poope pulls your strings.

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Don't know about the poope, but I would love to have the new Pope pull my finger.

he would, but you would have to stretch your arm behind your back...while touching your toes.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

You are correct, I have never walked in your shoes. However, with each post here you add to the portrait that is your personality on these boards. I base my information on this. So what makes me think that you do not challenge and test your faith is the words you write here. When you write something like "God can not be contradicted," that shows a gross ignorance, when you make statements that you would let your child a person who assisted child molestation (even though later recanted), with your tirades against pornography, and ideas that casual use of taboo material constitutes addiction. All of these things contribute to my statement.

I also have to point out that I am not trying to attack you. If I am able to read your posts and get these ideas about you, and you feel that they are wrong ideas I feel that you should tell me why I am wrong and attempt to correct my misunderstanding of you. Again, I don't think anyone here is trying to directly attack you, we are all here to help one another, but it is the culture of this place to go after every small thing in order to improve it.

Also, the lawyers at your firm are not here to discuss things with us, I don't particularly care for them at this point. You are the one who is visiting these boards so you are the one who gets my attention. You witness horrible things, but I do not look at these events as trials of your faith. There are many reasons one can come up with to justify any of the atrocities one might come in contact with. Now these events might put you at odds with your god, but I can not picture then challenging your faith.

The things I feel that challenge faith are ideas. You do not appear to even think about any of the ideas counter to your way of thinking. You appear to simply throw them aside with a quote from your book, or a rage against Satan. It doesn't appear that thoughts of your own entered the discussion.

If I were the only one to look at you in this way I might see that it is a fault of mine in observing you. But others express a similar view, so I think that it must be the way in which you are projecting your ideas towards us. I am not trying to attack you here, but I am trying to help so that the words that are passed between all of us have more meaning.

Dan @ Code Town

WM

I don't take post personal and as attacks. I am what I am. I make no excuses. How I am perceived on this post depends on ones views life, culture, religion, etc. Everyone has an opinion based on what point they are at in life. In matters of faith I cannot formulate my own opinion. I cannot vote what I choose or choose not to believe. My faith is not a democracy. I am directed by faith wholeheartly. I am servant first, submissive to will of the master, Jesus. This you cannot understand because you are not a person of the Christan faith. This faith calls us to be submissive to Christ in all ways. If its seems Christans are puppetized or have their strings pulled its because we are believers. I take this as a compliment. Yes, I want God to pull my strings. For me there is a much more larger greater force in the grand picture of things than a non-believers opinion of me.

Man is the contridictor, God isn't. You base your opinions on the writings of man in scripture, who try to have you see who God is. In this way you are confused. The God of our fathers is the supreme intellect who knows all things beyond what your mind can percieve. God left us on this planet to see how we come to know him, if at all thur persons. Man is not an island, he needs people and how we relate to each other determines how Christlike we are. Thats the bottom line. Per scripure we are to serve rather than be served. That makes us servants & puppets who do the will of God. I am Ok with it.

(Edited by jade on 04-20-2005 15:28)

Wront post

(Edited by jade on 04-20-2005 16:03)

That is a ton of bullshit, and I find it hard to believe that you would even believe that.

As for the walking in an others shoes, I think you might then take your own advise.

I was born a catholic, raises as a Catholic, went to Catholic School, studied the same St. James that you have. I have debated it for hours on end with many different Priests. These men, who I am sure spend more of their time in the service of god, more time reading their bible and debating the scripture than any of us here do. They still had doubts, they still had questions, and they still worked at learning and understanding while maintaining their faith. In matters of faith there are lots of ways to interpret things, and you must come up with your own decision based on many different ideas. Do you decide not to murder, or do you stone homosexuals, adulterers and witches? Again a small example.

Man wrote the scripture! No! By your own beliefs, the words in that book are words from god (Holy Spirit) through man. They are not simply the writings of man.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

As for god changing his mind:

"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Exodus 32:14

"At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
Jeremiah 18:7-10

These are just two small examples, when the change is seen in a small section. If you wish to have even grander portions pointed out to you it can be done. You will probably argue that god didn't change his mind at all, this was just stages in his plan. However, it is written that the LORD wanted to do some, and then decided not to do it, that is a change.

Line by line your arguments fall flat against these scriptures you follow so feverently, yet when quoted against your faulty set of beliefs you claim them false, or flawed.

You claim to understand god, and me confused, when you can not know god. When it suffices you, you will claim to know gods plan, but later when it suits your purpose claim you can not know gods plan you just follow and are a servant. It is not I that am confused, it is you who try to confuse. God gave you free will, he didn't set you down here without the ability to reason for yourself. Claiming you are just a puppet goes against his stated purpose.

Your flippant discarding of my ideas do to me being a "non-believer" is again, like others have said your ducking and weaving, and passing your in ability to actually comprehend the issues onto something that you see as a flaw in me. If pass off so many aspects of what that grand picture you (in the above post) are intertwined with, how do you ever expect to see it.

Dan @ Code Town

In simple terms jade, your every post is and excuse and your style of response is exactly as WM defined.

But, like your blind faith, you cannot see the error of your ways.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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I was born a catholic, raises as a Catholic, went to Catholic School, studied the same St. James that you have. I have debated it for hours on end with many different Priests. These men, who I am sure spend more of their time in the service of god, more time reading their bible and debating the scripture than any of us here do. They still had doubts, they still had questions, and they still worked at learning and understanding while maintaining their faith. In matters of faith there are lots of ways to interpret things, and you must come up with your own decision based on many different ideas. Do you decide not to murder, or do you stone homosexuals, adulterers and witches? Again a small example.

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Its difficult for you to understand me because my walk is different from yours. I come from a practicing family which prayed all the time. Rosaries, mass attendence, helping in the workings of the church was a regular. My Father is not a learned man, nor my mother, but they raised 10 children with much hardship sending all of us the Catholic private school as well highschool. I saw the dedication, love and discipline towards the Catholic faith. I saw thru many trials, submission. Most of all there was much, much prayer. Do you really think that God ONLY wants great theologians who can reason him into existance by debate and study. I don't think he does. We are not all called to the same path. Some of us are called to be great teachers and thinkers. Some not. I believe the man who lives simply and believes is endowed with a greater gift of grace than one who has to reason Gods ways. The gift of grace has many levels. A man can go thru his whole life with never opening a bible, but hearing the word of God by going to church and living the a good life. He doesn't have to attend theology classes and debate with anyone regarding why or why not he believes. Does this make him a puppet?

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Man wrote the scripture! No! By your own beliefs, the words in that book are words from god (Holy Spirit) through man. They are not simply the writings of man.

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Man wrote scripture guided by the Holy Spirit. They are human words written to describe history of the faith and the gosples of Jesus. It is one of the foundations of our church. But not all. But that is not all there is to faith according to Catholic belief. The bible is a tool. It will not get you to heaven if you don't live a good life. Per scripture in the NT, if two are in disagreement with the interpretation of bible scripture, who does scripture tell you to consult? Its the Church who is the "pillar and foundation of truth" and untimate authority. Who is the church, which is made up of millions? Do you go ask each one? No. That is not the way the Church interprets this. So all one has to do is consult with his Catholic study bible guide or ask his priest. Now thru the grace and study of the faith, and thanks to Pope John Paul we now have the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" which is very reader friendly.

(Edited by jade on 04-20-2005 17:29)

Just remember everyone, it's not superstition, it's religion....
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/20/mary.underpass.ap/index.html

I'm unclear on the difference at this point

Years ago I saw something similar in a concrete urinal. If I'd only known. =)

If you believe yourself to be a simple puppet following all of these self prescribe rules of your religion, why do you come here into a forum clearly designed for political, ideological and theological debates?

Dan @ Code Town