Topic awaiting preservation: Let us talk about Prayer. (Page 3 of 5)

DL, I think you just summed up everything I was trying to say in about 5 different long posts in a single very concise post. I am a bit jealous of your skills with words.

Dan @ Code Town

Well I can see your point DL and how often it can apply.

When we are childrean we are in a fairy land. We are gullible and believe anything. And for those who suffer in a delusional state most of their lives, they need a doctor, a physichrist. They are ill.


For most part of humanity who profess belief in a God, be it Buddism, Muslim, Christian, etc.. I don't think they suffer from the same kind of form of the delusional. This is not saying much for the rest of the planet. Be they below average, average or to the highly intellectual they profess faith without proof. Thats also saying Albert Einstein was delusional. He was a believer, so I think he prayed.


Sure, we can allow ourselves or fall into a delusional state everynow and then. But then for most of us, we get slapped back into reality. I can delude myself into thinking someone likes but in reality they can't stand me. But thats different from faith matters.

Faith is not a delusion for the majority of the planet. Thats saying the heart/mind/soul is out to to deceive.. For the many numbers in faith who get the same message of a loving creative God that should be proof alone.

I think I might want to jump to a different tangent a little bit, and follow this new line about Delusions.

Humans have a strong capactity to be delusional. I have taken many drugs which have put me into altered states of reality. In these states I was often able to communicate with things that were completely inanimate in what would to myself was completely meaningful.

This isn't what society wants. For some reason this gets beat out of us over time. Lets take an easy example, photographic memory. I remember reading about a study which showed children to have a higher capacity at a photographic memory than adults because you needed to accept your "delusions."

The test was performed by placing a slide with a picture in front of different groups and after removing it asking them if they could still see the image. Now if you are a bit delusional you will note that you will still have an after image that your brain will paint in front of you. You have to pay attention or you will miss it. But adults would discount this image, because they would know that it wasn't real.

I am just wondering how far this type of incident might project into other parts of life, where we all might be a bit delusional, but though our conditioning we have given up on it, and ignored it as not existing.

Delusional has a real negitive connotation to itself, but I don't think that it should be this way. I think that these delusions can be used and might be able to teach us a whole lot about ourselves and our sepecies in all their different forms. They get bad when they cause you to want to hurt yourself or other people, but like anything in the world there is the good and the bad. But for these types of things where does the good end and the bad start?

Dan @ Code Town

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Faith is not a delusion for the majority of the planet.

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Obviously anyone suffering from this delusion would say such things =)
But it is not any different.

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Thats saying the heart/mind/soul is out to to deceive..

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Of course the heart is out to deceive....that's what it does! People *want* things to be better than they are. They *want* there to be somedivine justice. They *want* there to be everlasting life after death.

So when given a chance to believe it, of course a great many people do. It proves nothing other than a common desire for life to be better.

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For the many numbers in faith who get the same message of a loving creative God that should be proof alone.

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It is written what you will get out of believing. It's preset. People looking for hope get hope when they create for themselves a source for that hope (substitute courage, strength, happiness, etc..).

*That* is why prayer works for the individual. It focuses the mind on the positive, and gives a feeling of having the support of something greater. This is psychology 101.

^That pretty much rings true.

Well said.

So, if prayer really only has a positive effect on the person doing so, then wouldn't meditation be a better alternative?

After all, the personal beneifits of meditation are very well documented, scientifically.

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It is written what you will get out of believing. It's preset. People looking for hope get hope when they create for themselves a source for that hope (substitute courage, strength, happiness, etc..).

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Well this is a perspective. Regardless if its from Psy 101. There
are no facts to base this on. Right? Just speculation. I doubt there were affirmed test to come to this conclusion?

Believers feel we get all these things from a source. In the creating from the innersef, its because the capacity do so, generates from above. Yes, God will help those who help themselves. He dosen't send a flash of lightning and its done for us. We feel God rewards us with an answer, even if its camaflouged in the working of daily life if we pray, hope and not worry. We cannot separate daily life without the thought of "God help me with this", or "Oh God, I hurt myself", or "Oh, God how beautiful" when the sun came out" or God bless you when someone sneezes, or if we are astonished about something, how many of us say "Oh, my God". How many of us even call upon God in the height of sexual tension. (best way I can say it) The fact is people use God's name everday all over the world, in every second of every minute. And believe it or not, this is a form of prayer. Anytime you call upon Gods name, he hears.

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Well this is a perspective. Regardless if its from Psy 101. There
are no facts to base this on. Right? Just speculation. I doubt there were affirmed test to come to this conclusion?

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There are countless studies out there on this kind of subject. So yes, there are plenty of facts and plenty of tests.

There are countless methods of achieving this kind of reinforcement. Many people use various forms of meditation to achieve a more positive mental state, involving many different techniques. Most include some sort of repetition and/or focus on positive outcomes, or a general clearing of the mind to remove negative perspectives.

In some cases such practices include rituals in which one's ancestor's or some other entity that is assumed to have onfluence over events or well being are consulted or petitioned.

Prayer falls under this category.

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Believers feel we get all these things from a source.

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Yep, I said that...

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The fact is people use God's name everday all over the world

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Yes, and people also use a lot of other sayings and statements that don't carry their original meaning any more. I say the word god fairly often. I am not calling to god....I am using a figure of speech that is ongrained in our language.

Not to mention the fact that "god" is not "God's" name. It is a generic noun that applies to countless mythical deities, and did long before this particular god's stories came about.

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Anytime you call upon Gods name, he hears.

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This, on the other hand, falls entirely in the category you mention:

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There
are no facts to base this on. Right? Just speculation. I doubt there were affirmed test to come to this conclusion?

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Wouldn't you say?

It's always rather funny how demanding you are of proof and facts and tests with my information, but never your own...



(Edited by DL-44 on 04-11-2005 21:45)

Well, I only refer to it because, you deal in facts, test, etc.. and I kinda wondered how you could perform those kind of test regarding thinking postive resulting in postive outcome.

So you use God's name quite often but don't use it in away I would. So could you give me examples on when you use it. A generic noun. I don't think that is the way its defined in dictionary, but then again we misuse lots of words. Do you use it to express disbelief?


I think prayer comes in many forms. There is a form of prayer called meditative prayer, chanting and centering prayer. All have the same effects. All use the heart, will of the mind and soul. All require continious discpline.

Are you referring this kind of positive thinking, self-help, self-empowerment without the help of a God?

http://www.gettheedge.com/index.php?acnt=GHTZZ01H

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A generic noun. I don't think that is the way its defined in dictionary, but then again we misuse lots of words

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Dictionary.com:

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1. God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

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Etymology
Earliest attestation of the Germanic word in the 6th century Codex Argenteus (Mt 5:9)
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Earliest attestation of the Germanic word in the 6th century Codex Argenteus (Mt 5:9)

The word God continues Old English/Germanic god (guþ, gudis in Gothic, Gott in modern German). The original meaning and etymology of the Germanic word god have been hotly disputed, though most agree to a reconstructed Proto-Indo-European form *ǵhutóm, which is a passive perfect participle from the root *ǵhu-, which likely meant "libation", "sacrifice". Compare:-

* Vedic Sanskrit hu- = "to sacrifice".
* Greek khu-, kheu- = "to pour".
* Common Germanic strong verb geutan (Anglo-Saxon gēotan) = "to pour", English in-got.

The connection between these meanings is likely via the meaning "pour a libation".

Another possible meaning of *ǵhutóm is "invocation", related to Sanskrit hūta.

The word God was used to represent Greek theos, Latin deus in Bible translations, first in the Gothic translation of the New Testament by Ulfilas.

Also some people in the world, mainly Hindu, believe that the word God, is actually an acronym (G.O.D.). The acronym stands for Generator, Observer/Operator, Destroyer. This belief although rare, is held quite dearly by some people.

Capitalisation
KJV of 1611 (Psalms 23:1,2): Occurrence of "Lord" (and "God" in the heading)
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KJV of 1611 (Psalms 23:1,2): Occurrence of "Lord" (and "God" in the heading)

The development of English orthography was dominated by Christian texts. Capitalised "God" was first used to refer to the Judeo-Christian concept, and may now signify any monotheistic conception of God, including the translation of the Arabic Allah.

In early English bibles, the Tetragrammaton was rendered in capitals: "IEHOUAH" in William Tyndale's version of 1525. The King James Version of 1611 renders

* YHWH as "The Lord"
* Elohim as "God"
* Adonay YHWH and Adonay Elohim as "Lord God"
* kurios ho theos as "Lord God" (in the New Testament)

The use of capitalisation, like for a proper noun, has persisted, to disambiguate the concept of a singular God from pagan deities, or, in the Christian view, false idols, for which lowercase god was continued to be applied, mirroring the use of Latin deus. Pronouns referring to God are also often capitalised, and traditionally in the masculine gender, i. e. "He", "His" etc.

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As you can clearly see, the word has origins unrelated to the judeo-christian god, and has been used by many cultures.

That should be evident from the texts of the bible itself.

Why else would "God" tell people that he is the one, true, god, and that they are not to have any gods before him, otherwise?

I use the word 'god' in daily conversation the way anyone else does "oh my god" "god damn it" "jesus! did you see that?" "oh god, that's awful" etc etc etc...
Figure of speech, just like so many others.

Those types of self-empowerment deals fall into one or more categories that I am referring to, yes.

It is worthless to argue the existence or non-existence of God based on logic or mathematical equations - as many have already remarked in this thread.

However, there is one hypothesis regarding God that I think can be proven.

The Hypothesis is the following.
God does not intervene in the life of <insert name>

For example: God does not interven in the life of ZaddyDog.
This hypothesis can be tested in several ways:

1)If there is a God, I am asking him to leave a 2005 HD Street Rod in my driveway by the time I finish writing this sentence.
brb guys <gets up to look>

Back: Ok, nothing but some oil stains. No V-Rod
Conclusion: God ignored my request (or never read it - does he frequent these boards?)

2) If there is a God, I think he's a dumb lamer asswipe and I dare him to strike me dead by the time I finish writing this sentence.
<takes pulse><takes BP>
all vitals within acceptable/normal range
Conclusion: God ignored my insults and my dare (or does not read my posts)

As you can, see God does not give a crap about me (and I reciprocate the favour).

SO HERE"S the BIG QUESTION
Why should the majority of us actually care about God since he does not intervene in our lives?

This ties back to WS's point that all those prayers for the Pope were for naught. Surely, if he had an impact on our lives he would have at least thrown us a bone.

Some of you will argue that God makes them feel good...yeah but so does Jack Daniels...
Some of you will argue that God will make the non-believers burn in hell..but hell is only a christian belief.

so why should we care about God even if he does exist? he has no impact whatsover on our lives..i.e the majority of us.

Extremely weak argument.

Though I am a complete atheist, and see most arguments/refutations by beleivers as silly, the very basic answer to your 'challenge' is - why the hell would any god pay heed to such an insignificant and, quite frankly, idiotic challenge from you?

I understand that your statement is not entirely serious...but that kind of reasoning only fuels those who do believe in god to look at the view of atheists as ridiculous...

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DL-44 said:

I understand that your statement is not entirely serious.

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I hope so. My arguments are weak? I don't think you even considered my premise seriously.

Restated - God does not manifest himself in any way or form in MY life. Period.

I wasn't talking about you DL, I was talking about me, and I was also making provisions for anyone who is honest enough to admit that God has never intervened positively or negatively in their lifes. Perhaps you fit that bill, perhaps you feel God does answer your prayers..i don't know, and i honestly don't care.

The fact that there isn't any intervention, any interaction, any manifestation doesn't disprove the existence of God - what it states is that if there is a God he does not get involved with in my life and i think this is pretty true for most mortals regardless of whether they believe or not.

Can anyone provide examples of how God has helped them in a tangible way such as by answering a prayer?
How many have had the personal experience of a cancer-stricken relative go into spontaneous remission (or cured) as a result of prayer?

The people who would answer yes are a minority. I f you reply that God speaks to you daily, well that's a different one, they make meds for those ppl.

On the other side of the coin, can anyone provide examples of hardship, or of unfilled wishes - examples where one prayed to God yet the prayer remain unanswered.

The fact is (yes fact) that the majority of us will never see, feel, perceive, sense, any evidence of God - evidence as it relates to his influence on our petty lives.

Jade:

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When we are childrean we are in a fairy land. We are gullible and believe anything.

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That's it in a nutshell. If children weren't indoctrinated I'd venture to say organized religions would pretty much vanish within a couple of generations. 3 at most I figure.

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Can anyone provide examples of how God has helped them in a tangible way such as by answering a prayer?
How many have had the personal experience of a cancer-stricken relative go into spontaneous remission (or cured) as a result of prayer?

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This proves my view on how there are those who want God to show up in the physical and perform in the physical. God does not work that way most of the time. And if thats what your looking for you will always be dissappointed and un-believing. God can provide this kind of show for you, but up to this point in time, God works in the work of nature and the intangible.

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jade said:
This proves my view on how there are those who want God to show up in the physical and perform in the physical.

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yeah, so what? i want to see physical evidence. what's wrong with that?

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jade said:
God does not work that way most of the time.

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Good. Now give me examples of how he does work.

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jade said:
And if thats what your looking for you will always be dissappointed and un-believing.

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i guess so.

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jade said:
God can provide this kind of show for you, but up to this point in time, God works in the work of nature and the intangible.

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when you say Nature you mean he's responsible for killing people in the Tsunami/earthquakes? Or did you mean nature more like cancer, man preying on man? and what do you mean by intangible?
by intangible did you mean without having any impact whatsoever on human misery, or the plight of animals, etc.?

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How many have had the personal experience of a cancer-stricken relative go into spontaneous remission (or cured) as a result of prayer?

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um, yeah. a dozen or so actually, people i know firsthand that have had that or similar disease remission.

forgive my lack of posting but i broke my arm sunday night and have surgery in the morning.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Surgery Fig? Won't god fix it for you? Try a little prayer.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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God works in the work of nature and the intangible.

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If god works in the work of Nature, then it must follow natural laws. That means, that your god's works must be measurable. Since we haven't found any measurable evidence of this, I must caution you here to remain on the side of skepsis. It may be possible that your god is indeed influencing the laws of Nature, at a very, very small scale (one we cannot presently measure). However, at larger scales, obviously not.

And if they are intangible, then they don't really have any effect, do they?

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a dozen or so actually, people i know firsthand that have had that or similar disease remission.

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And the same goes for those who are either not religious, or are not christian. In fact, those who meditate, and are advanced meditators, have a higher remission rate than others.

WS, we can sit and discuss all day whether something would've happened with or without prayer...we'll never know.

ehtheist, you continue to show your true colors...appreciate the sympathy.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

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WS, we can sit and discuss all day whether something would've happened with or without prayer...we'll never know.

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This is not true. Studies can be done (and have been done) that disprove that prayer helps the recipient (if the recipient does not know they are being prayed for). Other studies have been done, that prove that prayer is just as helpful to the recipient as a placebo, medicine man ritual, etc.

Studies have also been done, on meditation (and reciently, on deep meditation, the kind that Tibetian monks practice). Astounding stuff.

Nothing "magical", but astounding, nonetheless.

As DL has mentioned, there is a positive effect on those who do pray. However, it doesn't seem to matter to what they pray, be it a god, gods, spirits, Nature, ancestors, etc.

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If god works in the work of Nature, then it must follow natural laws. That means, that your god's works must be measurable. Since we haven't found any measurable evidence of this, I must caution you here to remain on the side of skepsis. It may be possible that your god is indeed influencing the laws of Nature, at a very, very small scale (one we cannot presently measure). However, at larger scales, obviously not.

And if they are intangible, then they don't really have any effect, do they?

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In all faiths God provides Miracles. In Medjourie, Yugolsavia, God provides miracles every day. There you can see the sun spin, turn different colors, see apparations in the sky. Cures of cancer and many diseases. If you need to see to believe, go there and you will not be dissappointed.

You are welcome Fig. Good thing we have medical SCIENCE huh?

You will always see my true colours. What you see is what you get.

Straight forward, non-PC, not the least bit diplomatic, no bullshit.

Try it, it is refreshing.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Prayer most certainly does not work... in the way that most people expect it to.

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If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. --John 15:7

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Why is it so easy to overlook the qualification on this promise? We get what we ask for only when it coincides with what God wants. The trick is to align our desires with his; then the true power of prayer becomes evident.

Prayer most certainly does work... in the way that most people do not expect it to.

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NoJive said:

If children weren't indoctrinated I'd venture to say organized religions would
pretty much vanish within a couple of generations.

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I agree, but it would only be replaced with unorganized religions just as we have seen throughout human history. The "God hole" that Pascal alluded to is real, whether it points to an actual god or not is debatable of course.

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We get what we ask for only when it coincides with what God wants.

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Tsk, tsk, Bugs. You know you can't seperate that from random events happening.

Both are one and the same, in end effect.

As I said, the trick is to know what God wants. I think the answer is exceedingly simple, but extremely hard to come to realize. And of course it will make absolutely zero sense to you, WS, if you apply your world view to it. As usual, I am speaking from the point of view of a xian.

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So, in other words, what god wants to happen will happen. Whether it's what we want or not...

So in other words....just leave god alone and let nature take its course.

Not quite. I'm saying that God does alter the course of nature and events on the basis of prayer. The distinction I'm drawing is on which basis he will do so. I believe God will intervene in cases where it directly involves carrying out his ultimate purpose and mission, which I believe is rooted in this, particularly the bold section:

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I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone? for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men?the testimony given in its proper time. --1 Timothy 2:1-6

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To get specific, I do not think God will cure someone's illness unless it is directly connected to helping more people to be reconciled with him. So if I find out tomorrow that I am terminally ill, I will only ask for prayers to keep me alive if there is still something I can do to further God's desire to see all people saved. Otherwise, my purpose would be complete on this planet.

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First:

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I believe God will intervene in cases where it directly involves carrying out his ultimate purpose and mission

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So it doesn't matter if you pray or not because He is going to do what He wants to anyway.



Second:

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This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

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So we are going to believe that is true because someone named Timothy said so? How does he know? Oh, yeah, God told him personally. Hmmm... that's not what He told me. But if I told you what God revealed to me, you'd just say I was crazy. So, what is so special about Timothy?

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briggl said:

So it doesn't matter if you pray or not because He is going to do what He wants to anyway.

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That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that God will do anything we ask if it is in accordance with his goals. According to the teaching in the bible, God works through his people. Xians are indwelt with God and therefore we are actually God's hands. If we choose not to yield our will to his, then his work is hindered. So I'm saying that we play an integral role in what God will do so it isn't that he will just do what he wants regardless of our requests. I hope that explains it more clearly for you.

That letter from which I quoted was written to Timothy from Paul the apostle. The reason I personally believe in its validity has been stated here multiple times. In short, I believe that the apostles who lived and knew Jesus Christ personally were telling the truth about their experiences. I also believe that the New Testament as we have it today has captured the apostles' words sufficiently for us to consider them "historically accurate".

So why is Paul so special? Actually that was something I wanted to talk about in another thread before I got busy a couple of weeks ago. He was not one of the original 12 disciples. He was a high ranking Jew who persecuted the early church. He later was confronted by Christ when he was travelling and he became a xian as a result of that encounter. He was accepted as an apostle by the original apostles. I hold him in extremely high regard, especially in how he was instrumental in bringing the gospel to the gentile world. Also, much of the New Testament consists of his writings.

It has also been stated here many times before that I will often speak from my world view in order to explain my position for others. This thread began slamming the xian point of view on prayer, so it seemed reasonable to present xian explanations for why we do what we do and why we think what we think about prayer.

If you told me that God spoke to you, I would certainly expect you to back it up. But that goes to the heart of why I accept the apostles' claims. I think the resurrection is a historical fact. When I walk through everything we know about the documents in question and the accounts found in them, I am left with the conclusion it is more likely to be true than not. I accept, and fully acknowledge, I do not know 100% that it is true and that is why they call it faith. My basis of my faith is reasoned and calculated from the evidence of history.

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Also, much of the New Testament consists of his writings.

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Most scholars agree that (forgive me if I'm off on the count) 6 of the 13 works attributed to Paul are not actually written by him.

FWIW

Also, the earliest versions of the new testament that we have, containing more than just bits or pieces of a page, date to the 3rd century and later. The earliest complete versions, the 4th or 5th century.

That's a loooooooong time for things to change. Given the changes we *know* about from existing versions, the possibilities of previous changes are quite limitless...

That, for me, is far more than enough to call the "truth" into question.

again, FWIW.




(Edited by DL-44 on 04-14-2005 05:08)

Paul says he was confronted by Christ. And everyone believes him? (This was after JC was dead remember.) What about when Jesus cornered me in the men's room the other day and straightened me out about how this world is going downhill? If I tell everyone what he revealed to me then, I'll just be dismissed as a crazy fool. So why do we believe Paul just because he wrote a story?

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If you told me that God spoke to you, I would certainly expect you to back it up.

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What evidence did Paul provide to back up his claims, other than saying that it happened?




(Edited by briggl on 04-14-2005 06:36)

Really, in the men's room? I always believed he was gay, not that there is anything wrong with that.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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Ehtheist said:You are welcome Fig. Good thing we have medical SCIENCE huh?

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right, because i've always said science is bad you might actually read some of the posts around here.

as much of an a$$ as you seem to be i'd still have some sympathy for you as a person if i knew you were having medical complications, surgery, etc. i suppose it's a stretch to expect the same.

for anyone who does care, i cracked my humerus in half sunday night and had it surgically repaired with a metal plate wed morning. uncomfortable but not doing too bad now.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Sorry to hear that. I hope it heals well, and you regain the full use of your arm.

I assure you Fig, I don't find your situation humourous.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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briggl said:

What evidence did Paul provide to back up his claims, other than saying that it
happened?

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Eyewitnesses. But then again, I am just going off history written by Paul's protege, so it could be faulty, but that is the historically agreed upon answer.

Eyewitness was a big thing back then, and I believe it is still pretty good now. Of course, those 500 or so people who saw Jesus after He died were just lying through their teeth in order to promote a religion that would ultimately end in each of their deaths (some by the hands of Roman Governors). Nah, those accounts are worthless...

Paul's story was a good one, wasn't it Bugs? Pretty good evidence for the whole Christian life-changing thing, but then as Zaddy quoted, you can't convince people through reason something that they are scared of...
One little thing, though: you do know God doesn't need us to live or work, right?

You know, DL, I'm starting to get anxious, when are you going to be showing us these refutations of the New Testament books? I'm interested.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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Eyewitnesses. But then again, I am just going off history written by Paul's protege, so it could be faulty, but that is the historically agreed upon answer.

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What eyewitnesses?
Are you referring to Acts? The book that has been shown to be vastly inaccurate repeatedly?

"historically agreed upon"? By whom?

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Of course, those 500 or so people who saw Jesus after He died were just lying through their teeth in order to promote a religion that would ultimately end in each of their deaths (some by the hands of Roman Governors). Nah, those accounts are worthless...

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And I assume you can produce the testemonies of these "500 or so" people? Ah, no - that's right, we've got 4 accounts of the resurrection, written at best a couple of decades (up to several decades) after the 'event' in question, one of which was added onto 'mark' sometime significantly later after the original ending was deemed not conclusive enough by the proto-orthodox christians...

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Paul's story was a good one, wasn't it Bugs? Pretty good evidence for the whole Christian life-changing thing,

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It is evidence for nothing other than the fect that he changed the cause he was fighting for. He was a zealot for one cause who turned into a zealot for another cause. Not an uncommon personality trait, then or now.

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but then as Zaddy quoted, you can't convince people through reason something that they are scared of...

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And if you ever find something that I am "afraid of" and have some "reason" at your disposal, then we can address that issue perhaps

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One little thing, though: you do know God doesn't need us to live or work, right?

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The feeling is quite mutual =)

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You know, DL, I'm starting to get anxious, when are you going to be showing us these refutations of the New Testament books? I'm interested.

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I wouldn't necessarily call it 'refuations' of the books, but the topic I mentioned earlier, I will start a new threa for when I have the time.

http://www.etymonline.com/columns/fallacy.htm

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Well I guess if I haaaad to say a prayer.... =) The audio's out there... but can't find it right now... I luv the 'circular' something. <lol>

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Boys In The Barroom
(Robert Hunter)

Transcribed by: William Bond


Does God look down on the boys in the barroom?
Mainly forsaken but surely not judged
Jacks, Kings, and Aces, their faces in wine
Do Lord deliver our kind?
From singin' for whiskey three strings on a fiddle
Four on the guitar and a song that I love
Many's the night we spent pickin' and singin'
In hopes it be pleasing both here and above
Jack string fiddle to my saw tooth bow
Who loves loneliness, loves it alone
I love the dim lights like some love the dew
Only thing I wonder sometimes:
Does God look down on the boys in the barroom?
Mainly forsaken but surely not judged
Jacks, Kings, and Aces, their faces in wine
Do Lord deliver our kind?

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(Edited by NoJive on 04-15-2005 23:45)