Topic awaiting preservation: Let us talk about Prayer. (Page 1 of 5)

The passing of the Pope has left me with an interesting observation :

Prayer doesn't work.

Millions (literally!) prayed for the Pope. It didn't help, not even a little.

If the prayers of millions do not have even the slightest effect on the xian god, then why do xians think that a couple will make a difference?

I have come to the conclusion, that prayer only helps sooth those who are praying. But surely, in the light of this massive prayer and the lack of result in the case of the Pope, that even the most religious out there must realize that prayer does not have the desired results.

Is it then just a placebo, designed to make those who use it feel better?

How can you claim from that observation that prayer doesn't work.

What about gods will, Fate etc...

Perhaps it was God's will that the Pope die, perhaps in his death we will learn new things about ourselves.

Perhaps prayer did work a little, the Pope almost died a week or so ago but maybe the power of prayer kept him going just a little longer.

If prayer to you is about getting what you ask for as simple as that, then I guess you're absolutely right, prayer doesn't work.

I think prayer is a method of focus and meditation, allowing for inspiration (perhaps from God) to achieve or gain or see what we prayer for.

Cheers,

Here is one possibility likely to be controversial. But first, some context. Quotes can make much more sense out of it than my words.

quote:

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"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."
- C. H. Spurgeon

"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power."
-Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (The Promotion of True Religious Unity), Encyclical promulgated on January 6, 1928.

?...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..."
- Pope Leo XIII, in Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), Encyclical promulgated on June 20, 1894.

"...We declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff [pope]."
- Pope boniface VIII, Bull Unum Sanctum, 1302

"...I will be like the most High."
- Lucifer, Isaiah 14:14

"...the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4

"...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
- Revelation 17:8

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..."
- Isaiah 42:8

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Why would God answer prayers to save one who is the head of an organization which steals His glory? He is a jealous God, is he not?

Just a thought.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 04-04-2005 11:45)

quote:

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Perhaps prayer did work a little, the Pope almost died a week or so ago but maybe the power of prayer kept him going just a little longer.

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You are not being serious here, are you? Obviously the prayers didn't work - the Pope is dead.

The reason I am putting this issue forward, is because millions prayed for the Pope. I am curious, that if millions of prayers do not have the desired result, what is the chance of a few?

(Edited by WebShaman on 04-04-2005 12:48)

WebShaman:

quote:

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I have come to the conclusion, that prayer only helps sooth those who are praying. But surely, in the light of this massive prayer and the lack of result in the case of the Pope, that even the most religious out there must realize that prayer does not have the desired results.

Is it then just a placebo, designed to make those who use it feel better?

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You doubt it ?

Well, there were/are some studies going on, about how concious thought can actually influence events. I was considering that maybe prayer in such masses might have an influence along those lines.

But it looks like it doesn't.

Prayer can be looked at in two different ways.

As blaise alluded to, it can be a kind of meditative activity. Focusing your psoitive thoughts, clarifying your feelings, etc.

Then there is gideon view - prayer can save people who are dying.

This is obviously the view that WS is talking about, and obviously in part becuase of the posts gideon has made in regard to such things.

I think it is a significant point in that regard. The most highly regarded holy man in the christian world (even, in many cases, by non-caatholics), millions of people praying, and nothing. Makes the whole issue pretty silly, IMO.

Outside of that narrow field, my reaction is "yeah, no shit".

1st because prayer doesn't/shouldn't work like that.

2nd because it's pretty obvious that praying to imaginary figures isn't going to accomplish anything =)

Oooh shocking!

I was serious about what I said WS, but I was putting a suggestion forward (although written as though it was an opinion/belief).

I read an article once on research with prayer, they had a group of people that were the prayers, and their role was to pray for people in a given ward in a given hospital. the prayers had pictures and items belonging to the sick people.

There was a split of 50-50 of sick people that were prayed for and those that weren't, they all shared the same ward and were not seperated otherwise.

At the end of the research it conlcuded that praying (perhaps positive though) seemed to positively effect the sick people that were prayed for.

There were no relations between the sick and the praying people. the research was taken over a matter of weeks/months.

I'll see if I can find the source for you guys if you're interested.

I find prayer a really interesting topic because it's something that all religions take part in, but it doesn't stop there, many theologies and phylosophies on life also have a form of prayer like meditation, such as Yoga and Taoism.

Cheers,

[doh]typo[/doh]



(Edited by Blaise on 04-04-2005 14:40)

In my prayer life, I never ask God for a favor, money, power, status, love, a better life, etc. I ask God for power to love, endurance, peace and patience to accept whatever life sends me. I will be in pain, agony, suffer life's hardship, but with the help of God, I can endure it.

Sure we can ask God for aid and assistance in making someone well. But it would be God's will not mine in determinig, why God will or will not make that person well. Christians know that "our ways are not Gods ways" In the case of Pope John Paul, he was old, sick and had suffered very much and our prayers for him were not in vain. His journey in his mortal body was over. And the life he was intended to live has already begun in eternity. John Paul will continue to pray from wherever he is to help souls here on earth. THis is biblical teaching from Revelations. In Christian theology, the belief is that the world is sustained by prayer. Its like radio waves going to heaven and radio waves coming back to earth communicating every second of the day.

All prayers were and are directed for the Pope's soul, the church and the healing of hearts. Could we help, that we wanted John Paul in our world a little longer. In our humaness we tend to cling life even when its time to go. In understanding the relationship with the Pope and his flock, its like he is the only spiritual father we have ever known. Its a very deep and personal realtionship. I know I have a bilogical father and he taught me to live a spiritual life, but thur prayer and faith, I feel connected to John Paul and all our flock as a family. And he was the head of our family. I will miss him very much and feel the loss. This week will be much sadness but in the weeks to come, we will have a new Pope and it will be a time for celebration and joy.

The world wide coverage of the Popes passing and the Catholic faith from all corners of the world is tremedous. Every cable news channel devoted much time to the Catholic church and its faithful.

quote:

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our prayers for him were not in vain.

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How do you know this? I see no evidence to the contrary - he is dead.

quote:

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All prayers were and are directed for the Pope's soul, the church and the healing of hearts.

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This is NOT what is being reported from those interviews with those who prayed in masse for the Pope - at least, that is not what they were telling reporters.

Blaise: It's demonstrated that placebo, even when taken consciously, works. It works to a really slighter degree than real drugs but it does work and activates the same areas in the brain that the drugs they are supposed to replace.

If the patients in the study you mention were aware that someone might be ( as they didn't know if they were in the test group or the witness group ) praying for their recovery, it's exactly like a placebo. So now, how to figure what really did effect between the placebo effect and the prayers themselves ? I'm curious to see if the same results were obtained if one said to a group of patients that some people pray for their recovery while there's nobody praying in fact. Does the fact of "knowing" somebody pray for you works alone ? If so, it'd show that the prayers have the exact same effect as a placebo.



(Edited by poi on 04-04-2005 16:53)

Web, you seem really intent on proving this whole religion thing is garbage. I hate to break it to you, but it just can not be done. There is and will always be an answer to any arguement you put forth, because it is setup that way.

You have two main response that can be applied to any arguement:

1. Its gods will
2. Humans don't understand his message

So anything you put forth can be attributed to one of the two.

Q: Why do millions of people starve to death?
A: Its gods will.

Q: Why do we have wars in the name of god?
A: People don't understand his true message.

Q: Why doesn't prayer work every time?
A: It is gods will.

Q: Why do humans suck?
A: We are dumb and we can not understand his message.

You can just keep going on like this ad nausium. The one thing that you can not do is prove them wrong. They have an all powerful idea that solves all questions all the time without the need to address the main issues. This is a basic premise of the ideology.

You can not hope to apply rational thought to irrational ideas, it just does not work.

As a rational individual you should know that, and it pains me to see you fall into this trap. Snap out of this little bender of railing against religion, I promise you will feel better in the morning.

<sidenote>If you happen to stumble upon a really good orater they will take the time to quote passages from their sacred story book to make their answer seem even more authoritive, then they will go on to explain to you how god work, such as explaining how starving to death brings you closer to god because you know the suffering that was experienced by one of their mythical figures, or that going out and killing heathens is an act of piety before god. And then to tell you dying for the cause will grant you the ability to partake in all of the sins you are not allowed on earth, in the life after death. It is really a fascinating experince.</sidenote>

Dan @ Code Town

quote:
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our prayers for him were not in vain.
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How do you know this? I see no evidence to the contrary - he is dead.



Web

The answer is Faith. Faith in beliving without seeing.





John 14: 15-19: "19 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always. 17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 19 In a little while, the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. On John 14: 25-26 Jesus says, "I have told you this while I am with you. 26 The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you."
Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples said to him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." 26 Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring you hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe." 28 Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name."

Faith... damnit, I forgot to make mention of that one. Faith is simply the word given to the combination of responses one and two.

Dan @ Code Town

WarMage: It's just too tempting to ( try to )give a grasp of reality to the faithful. Though we know we are preaching in the desert. God ways are not our ways and blah blah blah ...

Didn't read too thoroughly so sorry if this has already been said.

WS: You seem to be thinking that those who pray believe they're going to "get what they pray for;" that prayer is just a mechanism for making things happen.

But isn't prayer more simply a way of *talking* to (a) god? When you think of it like that, it makes a lot of sense that you don't always get what you ask for. The idea, I believe, is that if we ask for something and there's no problem, god will grant it; but if he has a better idea, then he won't. It's a method of communication.

If I asked my friend if I could borrow $100, and he said no, did our conversation "not work?"


 

Because I am curious WM.

I am curious on how far abroad from reason, logic, and cause&effect some will go. I am interested in how one convinces oneself into believing something with total lack of evicdence.

I am interested in this process, how it starts, how it is continued, and the purpose behind it, and what drives it in some people.

In other words, I am seeking to understand it.

I know what it was inside myself that caused this. However, I am not everybody else. These discussions here do sometimes reveal little insights into this from the point of view of others, and have helped me to understand this process a bit better.

I am aware of the "It's god's will", Faith, and everything else under the sun. Standard bs to such questions. And I am not really interested in that, of course. But sometimes the reasoning (or unreasoning, as the case may be) process behind this becomes apparent, or moreso. It is this insight which intrigues me.

So forgive me if I sometimes go "over the edge" with these topics.

quote:

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WarMage said:

Web, you seem really intent on proving this whole religion
thing is garbage. I hate to break it to you, but it just can not be
done. There is and will always be an answer to any arguement you put
forth, because it is setup that way.

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Yep there is always wiggle room:

Q: Why didn't the rains come? We prayed hard and offered many gifts.
A: You didn't pray hard enough - give us more gifts!!

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

Blaise, If I recall the study accurately it was later found to have been not at all scientific, but conducted by a religious group bound, bent and determined to prove prayer worked.

I believe a subsequent study based on scientific principles was also conducted and results were somewhat different.

I will look to see if I still have the references in my favourites and post saem if found.

As to prayer, just talkin' to yerself.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Jade:

I noticed that all of the things you will ask for in prayer are things that you can pretty much controll yourself. What is up with that? Seems to me that maybe we should handle the little stuff ourselves......

I'm surprised no one has given this response yet:

quote:

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God always answers prayers. Sometimes the answer is "No".

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To obvious?

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

briggl: There's another variant :

quote:

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God always answers prayers. Sometimes the answer is "Go to hell!".

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Sorry couldn't resist

Wish I had said that!

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

quote:

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DL-44 said:

Then there is gideon view - prayer can save people who are dying.

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I never said that prayer will save someone who is dying. It might, but that is not what prayer is used for.

Sometimes people see God as the Santa Clause in the sky: He will give you whatever you want if you just ask Him. I think that Slime and someone else... had the right idea. It is more about getting closer to God to know His will for your life. You can ask for His blessings, you can ask for healing, you can ask for whatever you want, but sometimes God has a different plan, and sometimes He doesn't. Prayer just lets God know what you want, but can you tell God what to do?

Hey Warmage, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Many religions have answers for those questions other than"it is God's will."

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

quote:

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You can ask for His blessings, you can ask for healing, you can ask for whatever you want, but sometimes God has a different plan, and sometimes He doesn't. Prayer just lets God know what you want, but can you tell God what to do?

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The point being, that when compared to what happens when there is no praying, there is absolutely no difference!

So praying and not praying have the same effect (or lack thereof).

Meaning that prayer to god is just as effective as not praying.

quote:

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Jade:

I noticed that all of the things you will ask for in prayer are things that you can pretty much controll yourself. What is up with that? Seems to me that maybe we should handle the little stuff ourselves......

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We do handle them, but we realized where the strength to cope comes from:

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.
Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.
When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.
He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.
He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.
This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:


"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me."

The LORD replied:


"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."



(Edited by jade on 04-05-2005 17:46)

Strange that I always had to help myself, when times were hardest...

Nice little quote, but it won't save your ass when the bullets are flying.

So cute.

WebShaman: If it is God's will, the bullet will freeze in the air and the offender will see the light and feel the love of Jesus Christ the All Mighty Lord or us mere mortals. Yes God can do that if he wants.




(Edited by poi on 04-05-2005 22:23)

quote:

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Yes God can do that if he wants.

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Nope... it's Superman who does that. =)

God can bend the matrix at will.

http://www.valleyskeptic.com/pray.htm

Lets face it what they really mean is "Prey".

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

quote:

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If it is God's will, the bullet will freeze in the air and the offender will see the light and feel the love of Jesus Christ the All Mighty Lord or us mere mortals. Yes God can do that if he wants.

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But he never does.

quote:

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WebShaman said:
The point being, that when compared to what happens when there is no praying, there is absolutely no difference!
So praying and not praying have the same effect (or lack thereof).
Meaning that prayer to god is just as effective as not praying.

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This is where things get very interesting, and where you'll find arguments between different religions, or even just different denominations, but here's what I believe:

When you are a young child, your mother will feed you each and every day, irrespective of whether you acknowledge her or not (up to a point of course!). So, why bother acknowledging her at all?
Because, just like with praying, it's about relationship. At least, it is from where i'm standing. Some may pray out of superstition, or duty, or habit, or fear, but I believe the purpose of prayer is to talk with God.

I do not believe that God is limited by our prayer - he's not sitting up there, with a big wand, aching to give you something, and just waiting for you to pray the magic words so that he's able to give them to you.

I believe he did, however, create us for his pleasure, and his glory; and therefore enjoys it when we decide to engage in an active relationship with him.

I do not believe in 'the power of prayer'. I believe that prayer is powerful in that it allows you to speak with God, but prayer won't heal the pope, won't fix your car, and won't remove unsightly stains from your shirts. As i'm sure you realise, i do believe that God is powerful, and merciful - and can choose to do what his children ask. In the OT, there are cases of prophets or leaders bargaining with God, 'persuading' him - in genesis 18:16, you read of Abraham pleading for sodom - asking God not to destroy Sodom if there are 50 righteous people, then 45, then 40, and eventually, even if there are only 10 righteous people there.

To second what other folks have said - God is not a vending machine. It stands to reason that God does not allow every prayer to be answered with a 'yes' - this would cause catastrophe, especially at finals time (after all, both teams can't win, can they?)!

Prayer is about telling God how you feel, asking him for things that you feel are important, for giving praise to him, and for asking for forgiveness. And guess what - more 'christlike' folk will have more of their prayers answered, simply because what they ask for is more in line with his will.

Dan - i think you're almost right on the money with that argument. although that form of circular reasoning doesn't help at all when it comes down to intellectual debates, if one believes that there is a sovereign, all-powerful God, who controls everything, then from that viewpoint, any answer could be boiled down to "it's God's will". When dealing with components which have factors of infinity, normal logic seems to get stretched a little. The real problem, when it comes to discussions like these, is how little intelligence and reasoning 'believers' provide before supplying the "it's God's will" argument.

quote:

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but prayer won't heal the pope, won't fix your car, and won't remove unsightly stains from your shirts

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Damn, looks like I'll have to throw this shirt away after all!

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/041220/20prayer_2.htm


Well, it may seem that prayers don't mean much to some, but for the most part earthlings have been praying and offering since the beginnings and throughout all of our history.

I believe that God allows some suffering by his reason. In my faith, we believe we are allowed to atone for our sins in our earthly life in the form of a suffering(s) and thus become purged. So that maybe our purging state will not be that long or maybe we not have to be purged at all and go thur a purified state. For example if someone has suffered excruciating pain of cancer or other heath problems or if some have a terrible hardship or has had a hardship life, God uses this as a purifying. I believe there is a scripture relating to this. I will have to look for the verse.

Then again, I believe the degree of faith one has also determines the healing as you as see from the passage of the NT.

Matthew 8:6-13 NIV "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go.' and he goes; and that one, 'come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, He was astonished and said to those following Him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the East and the West, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go. It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Purify of/for what ?

Are children and women being abused guilty of anything and thus need to purify their soul ? Are children starving in the third world guilty and need to purify their soul ? Did the people of South Asia need to purify and undergo a massive tsunami ?

quote:

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Purify of/for what ?

Are children and women being abused guilty of anything and thus need to purify their soul ? Are children starving in the third world guilty and need to purify their soul ? Did the people of South Asia need to purify and undergo a massive tsunami ?

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I don't know why, but the way I see it is this way this way.....The wicked ways of the world do not come from God. Abused persons already or will carry a cross their whole lives. Already they are laden with a tremendous heavy burden of emotional trauma. Since we and our ancestors have sinned, we committed a treason against God and as a result all of nature is now in a rebellion against God and its proper order. We humans are currently not in our place of sovereignty over creation as we were meant to be. So, we are not getting what we deserve but rather what we do not deserve. God did not owe it to us to create us. Does he owe us breath, food, water, the sun and the moon, friends, warmth, etc. Are we not surprised that any bad things happen to good people, but rather that God is gracious to give us all good things that we experience--including this time we have in which to turn from our sins, trust in Christ, and follow Him. We are urged to take advantage of this time God has given us at Christ's expense, and turn from our sinful ways. Bad things happen to good people all the time. In scripture we are reminded about this in the story of " Job." And the most perfect example wa a man named " Jesus of Nazareth."
I do not hold God responsible for illnesses, accidents, and natural disasters. Its silly to blame God for everything bad that happens. God hates suffering but cannot eliminate it, more easily than I can worship a God who chooses to make children suffer and die, for whatever exalted reason. God does not cause our misfortunes. Some are caused by bad luck, some are caused by bad people, and some are simply an inevitable consequence of our being human and being mortal, living in a world of natural laws. I feel the painful things that happen to us are not punishments for our misbehavior, nor are they in any way part of some grand design on God's part. Because the tragedy is not God's will, we need not feel hurt or betrayed by God when tragedy strikes. We can turn to Him for help in overcoming because we can tell ourselves that God is as outraged by it as we are.

Ok, let's say God is not be responsible for illnesses, accidents, and natural disasters. If it's not his will to make people suffer why does he let them suffer anyway ? But why does he/she/it let them happen since he's so powerful ? Is he too lazy to use his super power and stop the tsunamis, earthquake, violent husbands, ... ? Or does he simply don't care about his little creatures ? You say he owes us nothing for having created us. But parents owes care to their children when they go wrong.

poi: Parenting is a great anology between Creator/creation and parent/child, God cares for his children and tells them that certain actions have certain consequences (just like parents). I find God to be much more consistent by being able building in these consequences, parents have no such luxury and have to do it all by force of will (which is easily weakened by the "life" factor, the 'flesh" as us xianspeakers like to refer to it).

It's not that parents don't love their children when the children bite the other children, they administer discipline in hopes that the child will recall that actions have consequences. Individuals cannot have someone else's will forced on them, God or parent or police or whatever. We're all doin our own thing and gettin by as best we can, and gettin beat down when we screw up. Our authority figures still love us tho and want to help us be the best we can be, cept for maybe the coppers and politicians

Now, don't make fun of me for loving my dad and I'll take it easy on your lack of hair