From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-07-2008 09:33
quote:I don't really know if you can prove/disprove God with science. It is kinda a moot idea for me. It would be like me trying to prove/disprove you with the scientific method. I think that question goes more into the realm of philosophy than hard science, don't you?
Errr...no, it doesn't.
One can prove the existence of another scientifically. Of course, there will be some room for error (a slight procent, because as you have noted, we could all be living a dream/fairyland, etc and this is all just an illusion, then all bets are off).
But assuming for the moment that we do, indeed, exist in a rational world, then yes, I can prove that you exist, scientifically.
So no, it is not the same as trying to prove or disprove that a god or gods exist. Where there is absolutely no evidence, it sets up a situation where all possibilities are equal.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Gideon:
Sorry I somehow managed to miss your question.
It is not wise of anyone to believe in absolutes. However it is my right to do so. I could answer why I believe that there is no God but why I believe that there is absolutely no God I cannot answer. As far as science goes the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful being or entity is impossible and if you reduce that to less than all-powerful and all-knowing then what's the point? I don't think you can just say that God may be something different than what Christians believe and at the same believe in soul, after-life, the validity of Bible etc. It would make just as much sense to worship a little green alien who lives lightyears away and believe that when dead your consciousness will somehow be transported there to exist happily ever after together with the little green alien. Even if someone claims to be able to magically communicate with the little green alien I see no reason to believe he exists. There is exactly as much proof to support the existence of God as there is to the little green alien. However I see lots of reasons why someone might invent an imaginary all-powerful all-knowing being that communicates only with that person and maybe with a few more select people. Of course you could say that the little green alien works in mysterious ways...
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 02-08-2008 00:32
Off topic a bit... maybe... I don't know but--- doesn't this fall under the category of promoting hatred against an identifiable group?
quote:
quote:Ezekiel 6:1 (Whole Chapter)
[ Turn Israel into Wasteland ] Then the Word of God came to me: "Son of man, now turn and face the mountains of Israel and preach against them: 'O Mountains of Israel, listen to the Message of God, the Master. God, the Master, speaks to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and the valleys: I'm about to destroy your sacred god and goddess shrines. I'll level your altars, bust up your sun-god pillars, and kill your people as they bow down to your no-god idols. I'll stack the dead bodies of Israelites in front of your idols and then scatter your bones around your shrines. Every place where you've lived, the towns will be torn down and the pagan shrines demolished?altars busted up, idols smashed, all your custom-made sun-god pillars in ruins. Corpses everywhere you look! Then you'll know that I am God.
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
Thank you for answering me Arthurio. It's okay that you missed it the first time. I had a hard time remembering after all the conversation with WS. :-) But thank you for being so candid. That's a good point you made that the point of a less than all-etc. being would be pointless. I never thought about it that way. So it kinda does swing in absolutes there, then, since either there is a God who is all-etc, or if there is something any less they aren't worth the effort...I can definitely see that.
WS, I guess you are right about the science. It is possible to prove the existence of God with science, just like you can prove I exist. I already gave you the reason why I believe in Santa Claus. Doesn't that same reasoning apply for God as well? Or is God the exception to this rule of historical fact?
quote:I already gave you the reason why I believe in Santa Claus. Doesn't that same reasoning apply for God as well?
Computer says noooo. Or you'd have to to apply it to all the deities and created by mankind since tens of thousands of years in various civilisations. Beside, the fact that the idea of Santa Claus is sorta kinda based upon Saint Nicolas doesn't make Santa Clause real.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-11-2008 10:02
quote:It is possible to prove the existence of God with science, just like you can prove I exist. I already gave you the reason why I believe in Santa Claus. Doesn't that same reasoning apply for God as well? Or is God the exception to this rule of historical fact?
You are joking, right?
Please tell me that you are not serious!
We have been through this all before.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Warning: Potentially inflammatory material below. Sense of humour required!
If, when I come to my time, I should find myself brought before some great being, creator of the Universe and all that dwell within it (meaning Earth's creatures only, of course, being the centre of all God's creation, and seeing as He didn't see fit to populate the rest of it), I just hope with all my heart that He has some form of nose... coz' I'm gonna' crack him a good one right in the middle of it! I might then apologise for not believing in the twisted old c**t, but that all depends on how He feels about being nutted on the nose.
That God exists is a matter of opinion, but should he exist, then I have plenty of proof that he really is a sick, cruel, unforgiving, and truly inhuman God. His idea of fun is for a child to be born without any possibility of experiencing and enjoying its life like an ordinary child, and to have it born to the sort of sickos that would keep it alive as long as possible in the belief that its painful rictus is some sort of smile.
So, I have no qualms about finding out He exists, as I have plans for Him. He'll certainly believe in me when I'm done.
WS, I just re-read my post and I have to apologize. I guess last night I smooshed those two ideas together and didn't think that it would be taken as one idea, my bad.
Two thoughts in that quote you grabbed from me:
1. Concession that it would be possible to prove/disprove the existence of God with science, in the same manner you would prove/disprove the existence of a person.
2. My belief in God stems from the same historical proof we have that Saint Nicholas was a real person. My point in using Saint Nicholas is that the media has changed who he really was in order to make some bucks off of him. I believe that media has done the same with God.
I'm sorry if that caused you any confusion.
We have enough historical evidence to prove that God is a real person who has influenced humanity for a very long time. If writings and a few artifacts are proof enough that Saint Nicholas existed, I think that 66 primary sources written by several different authors over a span of at least a millenia would count for at least enough evidence to suggest that there might be a God who does influence humanity. I could understand where many people would disagree with that historical data, since most historians disagree on everything, but doesn't it count for something? I guess after you look at the historical data it would be faith that you use to believe them; much like it is faith you use to accept what your professors say or faith you use to accept what historians say about something like...the holocaust. But the point I want to make is that there is evidence to suggest the existence of God. Some people just decide not to trust that evidence.
After we decide that God is a historical person, then I guess it would be okay to perform some scientific tests or mathematical calculations to determine if he still does exist, if you are up for the challenge.
For the record, Gidon /= Gideon. I don't write in caps and I wouldn't talk like that.
No, Gideon, the proof is much more likely to show that our alien benefactors (the guys who terra-formed Earth and populated it with life adapted to its conditions) existed at one time or another, and that their attempts at teaching something of worth to our ignorant ancestors went a little awry. There is no evidence at all to suggest the existence of a 'God' - this is where historians go to great pains to define the difference between first-hand and second-hand evidence, empirical evidence, and witness statements.
It is also prudent to consider the mental capacity and unique viewpoint of those who witness events - would trust you my assertion that little green pixie people inhabit my garden if I admit that they tend to congregate around my magic-mushroom patch, and reveal that I've never heard of grass-hoppers?
There is as much evidence of God's existence as there is of my rightful ascendence to the throne of Britain (which, when realised, will herald the start of a new era... and the immediate invasion of France as the first step in rebuilding the British Empire and repatriating America beneath the British flag). My documents were deliberately destroyed, and some devilish type even faked British history to make it look like I'm not the real King, but I have faith, you see...
So when you say there is no evidence of God are you talking about empirical evidence, witnesses, both, neither?
*66 primary source witness books in the Bible
*Other primary source witness books in Jewish and Christian accounts (Shepherd of Hermas, etc.)
*Statues, columns, reliefs (can't remember which) depicting Roman soldiers carring off the artifacts from the Jewish temple which were all described in written texts as given by God.
*Ark of the Covenant possibly found again
*Noah's Ark?
*Babylonian, Roman, maybe Assyrian records of Jewish nation
Need more to show the possibility of God?
We need less info than that to prove the existance of a pre-human ancestor. :-p
*66 people met aliens, or were using the wrong kind of incense... or both!
*Fables! There's plenty of '70s sci-fi literature that isn't taken so seriously.
*I have documents to suggest my birthmark is an alien tracking device.
*When it melts an entire Nazi army and leaves an adventurous archeologist and his shag with nothing but rope-burns, I'll see greater significance in it than I do. Historical significance only.
*What about it?
*What about it?
I'd need a lot more evidence than that to bring established theory anywhere near the realms of proven fact - evolution or religion.
Proof that people believed in God is a long way from proving God. I could argue that Jesus existed, but that doesn't make him the son of God in my eyes, or those of my imaginary Jewish friend (who does exist).
quote:We have enough historical evidence to prove that God is a real person who has influenced humanity for a very long time.
Sorry, the fact that some loonies killed each other and slaughtered others in your God's name is no proof of its existence.
Try again.
quote:*66 primary source witness books in the Bible
*Other primary source witness books in Jewish and Christian accounts (Shepherd of Hermas, etc.)
*Statues, columns, reliefs (can't remember which) depicting Roman soldiers carring off the artifacts from the Jewish temple which were all described in written texts as given by God.
*Ark of the Covenant possibly found again
*Noah's Ark?
*Babylonian, Roman, maybe Assyrian records of Jewish nation
I see people who live in Lala land, and they don't know it.
This has *all* been addressed over and over...
Your list of "evidence" is purely ridiculous. By that criteria, as I've said before, Superman is far more likely to exist than god.
Are you saying Superman isn't real?!? That's just absurd - look at all the documented evidence of his existence! Countless tales of his adventures, TV shows, and even a few movies - you can't tell me he doesn't exist, cos' I saw him on TV! You can buy action figures of him, ffs! Don't tell me he doesn't exist! *uncontrollable sobbing*
*C'mon Gideon, really! Are you going to tell me that Pliny the Younger was actually right when he documented the destruction of Pompeii? That town was destroyed by aliens, we all know that! And the holocaust, just a hoax put together by Jewish leaders to get Israel back!*
Hard evidence is something difficult to come by in history, I will admit that. But don't all those documents, artifacts, and changed nations at least suggest the existence of God? You can choose to disagree based on other evidence you have, much like Arthur R. Butz and the holocaust. But you can't discount the fact that several documents are claimed to be eyewitness accounts of God. Several other key references show what God should have acted like...and that He did do those things He should have. The books of Law written by Moses were supposed to have been given to him by God. That's about as close as one can get to an interview with God...All the prophets tell what God will do...and He does it. Isn't that enough evidence to suggest He is real?
[side note] Telling a dog to become a cat, really wanting him to become a cat, setting up tests to see if he is a cat, will never make him meow.[/side note]
[side note 2] 66 people who saw aliens or smelled the wrong incense would never be able to record or predict history as accurately as they did.[/side note 2]
Has anyone/you seen the stone tablets on which Moses supposedly got the ten comandments written ? I might start to consider that fairy tale the day we find and date them. Until then, this story is just a myth.
side note 2: it's not that hard to predict history when you write the book afterwards
quote:But don't all those documents, artifacts, and changed nations at least suggest the existence of God?
No.
quote:But you can't discount the fact that several documents are claimed to be eyewitness accounts of God.
Yes. I can.
quote:Several other key references show what God should have acted like...and that He did do those things He should have.
Uh... ? So, a story about god claims that he behaved in the way that the story claims he should behave? Earth-shattering...
quote:The books of Law written by Moses were supposed to have been given to him by God.
So? Perseus was supposed to have been given a sword by the god Hermes, a shield by the goddess Athena, and winged sandals, a helmet of invisibility and other goodies by the spring nymphs. He was supposed to have turned many people to stone using the dismembered head of Medusa which he obtained with the help of the gods, and flew back home with using his nice new winged sneakers...
quote:All the prophets tell what God will do...and He does it.
Nonsense.
quote:Isn't that enough evidence to suggest He is real?
So? Perseus was supposed to have been given a sword by the god Hermes, a shield by the goddess Athena, and winged sandals, a helmet of invisibility and other goodies by the spring nymphs.
I remember the days when spring nymphs used to give me goodies. ~sigh~
Those who look for monsters should look to it that
they do not become monsters. For when you gaze
long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.
Gideon, accept the following fact; history is recorded by humans; humans are fallible; history, as we know it, is subject to interpretation by fallible humans; recorded history is fallible. This is accepted by any historian worth his or her salt, even with regard to relatively recent events. FFS, you can't even believe 90% of the crap you read in the newspapers; you can't even believe half the crap you see in live newscasts!
Accepting (or at least, understanding) this fact, can you honestly tell me that the great unwashed (uneducated, ignorant, and quite simply, gullible) masses of ancient times were adequately equipped to tell truth from fiction, or to intellectually assess the validity of claims/statements made by others?
If your answer to that is anything more positive than "I don't know", then you need to ask yourself what the difference is between the prophets of long ago, and the people they lock away in institutions nowadays for claiming to be the son/prophet/embodiment of God. Why are they called crazy today? Why wasn't David Koresh lauded as the new Christ?
By your logic, if we're to assume that your God existed, then we must assume, by the volume of literature, that the Viking, Roman and Greek Gods existed (which makes your God a filthy deceiver, as he claimed to be alone). In fact, through sheer weight of evidence, we can't deny that Pagan sacrifices used to bring the seasons to fruition, and cause the sun to rise each morning.
Besides, if your God existed, and He created everything, then he had a very poor understanding of the science behind his own creation, making many, many assertions that were either completely false, misguided, or ignorant. In fact, if we assume that your sadistic and cruel God really existed, then we know for a fact that he deliberately mislead (and compounded the ignorance of) his followers for a very long time.
So, in short, we have two options:
1) Accept your ridiculously flawed logic; God existed. In this case, he was a sick-minded, lying, and rather dim sort of God.
2) Accept that there is no proof, and that whether or not he existed, many people have vigorously perpetuated the belief.
White Hawk, thank you so much for revealing all that to me. Thank you for showing me the reasoning behind your beliefs about why God doesn't exist. I can tell that you are angry at God (I can understand why at this presentation of Him). I can see now why you don't think He exists. I wouldn't want a God like that to exist either.
I want to show you the God whom I believe does exist. I want to quote the most quoted verse of the Bible: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16
The God I believe exists and He loves the people of this world. He loves the sons of Adam and daughters of Eve so much that He sacrificed His own Son to bring them back from separation.
Say what you want about historians, they are human beings. Say what you want about the "unwashed masses of ancient times," their acts speak for themselves. Say what you want about the prophets, they died for their message. Say what you want about the literature about God, it has withstood worse. But I want you to know that God is not sadistic and cruel. We have removed ourselves from God's love by our own free will. He created this beautiful world and we are the ones who destroyed it. He has been doing all He can within His own being to bring us back to what we were created for...a full and loving relationship with God Himself, through His Son, Jesus the Christ. We are what stands in the way. It isn't God's fault we are as we are...it is our own selfish desires. I hope you someday understand this.
Gideon: I know you never will but you should try to think about where you get your information. The Bible is as much proof of anything as are all other religious/mythical/fiction texts or books. You have probably been taught these things about God as facts since you were born. It is very difficult for one to change one's perception of reality. White Hawk isn't angry at God because it is difficult be to angry at something that doesn't exist I think he's angry at people who refuse to accept reality and reason. I share these feelings.
Anyway you just lost the debate (again). As much as we would like to believe in things that doesn't make them real.
Which Bible do you read, Gideon? The one I've read has maybe three entries, late in the texts, which claim God to be forgiving and loving. The rest of it, plainly, is saturated with bloodletting, rape, murder, and countless atrocities - all with the blessing of, with the aid of, or by the direct hand of your God. I'm not just picking on those atrocities committed in the name of your God, but those attributed directly to His action or command.
This loving relationship you refer to is a modern invention - your God is a jealous God (His own words, I believe) and a vengeful one. Your god slaughtered, or caused to be slaughtered, many kingdoms. Your God sanctioned rape, murder, slavery, sacrifices, war, and much, much more. This is what the Bible tells us, and in so much as you accept this as proof of God, suggests that He is far from benevolent.
Believe what you will, but don't be so selective of what you deem 'proof of God'.
I'm not angry at some ethereal concept dreamed of by despots of a forgotten age - I'm angry at bigots and zealots who thrive on the ignorance of others, or refuse to be anything but ignorant themselves.
And no, I'm not angry at you, either; misguided as you are.
EDIT: I can't help wondering if you're deliberately misreading me; I have not given any case for proving that your God does not exist, but simply refuted proof that he does exist. Don't make the mistake of believing that I'm red just because I'm not blue.
It is very difficult for one to change one's perception of reality.
I think you are very right Arthurio, very right. It takes many, many hours of contemplation and searching for me. I guess I was foolish enough to think I could help some people on here with that. Although I'm not sure if I lost the argument (too prideful to even consider losing ), I do think we are at an impasse. I think most people on here don't want to admit there is the chance of God being real because that would mean they would have to do something about it. If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him. That is a huge leap for someone to take in changing their perception of reality. I am thankful for all the prodding and difficult questions from all sides on here. It really helps to keep me sharp and keeps me questioning.
WH, I'm glad you aren't mad at me.
White Hawk, I'm no stranger to the Bible. I've read it cover to cover, and I have re-read several passages over again. I've read what you are referring to. I had a really, really hard time understanding why God told Joshua to kill everyone in the land of the Hittites to make the land of Israel: men, women, children, elderly. I couldn't understand why He would do such a thing. He even wants parents to stone their disobedient children! It is so hard to see a loving God when His robes are dipped in blood (Revelation 19:13). The Bible does not try to hide God's wrath like most churches and televangelists do today. The Bible doesn't just say that God loves, it also says that God hates. He hates what is evil. We are evil. We have sinned (Romans 3:23). God hates our sin. But He loves us. He killed His own Son so we can live with Him again. I don't know any other way God can show us love. "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) But you are quite right WH, the Bible is bathed in blood. The blood of us sinners, and the blood of the only sinless One, Jesus Christ. The Bible is a book of messed up circumstances. We are a messed up race. If we were capable of doing what was right, Jesus wouldn't have had to die. God wouldn't have to send us to Hell for our sin. But we can't do what is right. We don't want to. That is why we need a Savior. That is why we need someone to die for us, and make us into new creatures who do, finally, do the right thing.
quote:If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him.
Or one could easily not give a flying bat about "Him" because in the case you present, all there is is just a chance that "God" is real. Nothing worth running in circle and scream OMG OMG there is a slightly remote chance that there possibly maybe is a "God", and he hates us for we have sinned.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-16-2008 12:40
quote:If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him. That is a huge leap for someone to take in changing their perception of reality.
That is the singular, most idiotic thing that you have posted on these boards (and you have posted ALOT of idiotic things, btw).
What you are absolutely not considering, is that we leave a chance that the Universe is not as we think it to be - that everything is but an illusion, a dream, yadda yadda yadda. In that possibility, all bets are off - that means that the chance that Zeus is real, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Celestial Teapot, the Xian god, etc are equal.
There is no reason that I or anyone else has to do something about this - because, you see, any decision in that direction is as likely to be wrong as it is to be right. Believe as you will in the Xian god, and perhaps it is Zeus awaiting you, and he is not happy with what you have been believing in!
It is like betting all your money on a billion-to-one shot : that is what you are doing.
Me, I need my money to feed my family, pay my bills, and try to be a good and productive citizen. There is no way I am wasting it on that long shot.
Now, you may win. Entirely possible. Well, good for you. Odds are, however, that you lose.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 02-16-2008 14:33
quote: Gideon said:
That is why we need a Savior. That is why we need someone to die for us, and make us into new creatures who do, finally, do the right thing.
~ Hey Jesus good buddy ol' pal.... we're not quite ready yet to ahh..... you know... do the right thing so we need someone to die for us and somebody told us your old man said it'd be ok if we....exercised some free will ... jeeez man will ya just hold still here for a minute. ~
I think your bible must've been penned by lawyers of the day... it has more damn escape clauses than a piece of Bush Cheney legislation.
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
That is the singular, most idiotic thing that you have posted on these boards
I'd say the preceding line takes that honor actually:
quote: Gideon said:
I think most people on here don't want to admit there is the chance of God being real because that would mean they would have to do something about it.
The idea of there being a chance that any particular god is real dictates absolutely nothing. Let's say there is a chance that your particular god is real. What does that have to do with anything? What must be done about it?? There is as much of a chance that Lex Luther is going to break free from his 2 dimensional prison and claim his vengeance on our planet too....must something be done about that? Must we decide whether to be with Lex Luther or against him?
quote: Gideon said:
If there is even a chance God is real, you must do something about it. Decide to either be with Him or against Him. That is a huge leap for someone to take in changing their perception of reality.
If there are gods out there, who possess such wisdom as gods are supposed to possess, I will let them decide whether they are with me or against me.
I love how I say something and four people on here go: RAWR!
It's quite fun.
What are casinos based on? Chance, percentage, etc. If there was a 5% chance you could save a person from drowning would you do it? What if you had a 60% chance of losing your leg in the process, and a 35% chance of drowning yourself? Makes it more difficult, huh? But then again, you would be making a choice, wouldn't you? That is what I was talking about. If there is a chance God is real, you have to make a decision about it. (and making the decision to not make a decision is a decision, BTW) I have made my decision about Zeus and other gods...I believe they aren't real (or at least confused for other beings). That is my decision. I decided not to live for them. I guess I will suffer the consequences if I was wrong. But statistically speaking, I doubt it. My point, which many people missed, was that with the chance of God being real and God being angry, you have to make a choice to do something. You either trust Him and do as He says, or you don't and risk the penalties. But it's a lot easier to say that there is no chance there is a God, and be able to ignore Him without any repercussions, than for you to admit there is a chance and assume the responsibility of your own life's actions.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 02-18-2008 06:19
Gideon said:
But it's a lot easier to say that there is no chance there is a God, and be able to ignore Him without any repercussions, than for you to admit there is a chance and assume the responsibility of your own life's actions.
[/quote]
Do you know what you've said here Gideon? You've said if you didn't believe in a god you would not be able to lead a responsible life...that you would not be able to take responsibility for you actions... if you did not believe in a god. That it is only your belief in a god tht allows you to be responsible.
Really??
___________________________________________________________________________
?It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.? Voltaire
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 02-18-2008 10:33
quote:But it's a lot easier to say that there is no chance there is a God, and be able to ignore Him without any repercussions, than for you to admit there is a chance and assume the responsibility of your own life's actions.
I think the opposite is harder, to be truthful.
Not to believe in gods, etc, and assume responsibility for ones actions in life.
The reason?
I am not accepting responsibility for my actions because I believe I will be rewarded with paradise.
I do so because I have learned that in the long run, this is the best way for me, myself, to function and be the best that I can be. Note that this only applies to myself (others may feel or act similarly, but I do not advocate my personal way or belief for them).
As I do not believe in gods, etc, and still assume responsiblity for my actions, that blows the quoted part of your post out of the water.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
As WebShaman has just outlined, I also choose to live. I take responsibility for my own life, and my own actions; the good I do, I do without fear that my eternal soul is staked upon it.
I have no reason to believe in a God, even as I have no reason to believe that breaking a mirror will bring me bad luck. I avoid breaking mirrors simply because they're expensive, useful, and I don't feel like sweeping up the shattered pieces - luck plays no part in my decision not to go smashing mirrors.
Of course, if it should turn out that there is a God and that He takes issue with the manner in which I lead my life, then I'll be happy to continue to have nothing to do with Him. If my soul is forfeit through lack of faith when lesser people, criminals, child-molesters, and murderers may receive forgiveness, then He is not fit to be my God. I have no place in heaven alongside those that have lead their lives poorly, yet sought forgiveness with their dying breath.
This is all moot anyway. I have no fear of what comes, and do not dread death. I have complete faith that should there come a reckoning, my life will bear scrutiny. Should there be nothing at all at the end of it all, then there's nothing to fear but oblivion.
I'm glad you take responsibility for your own life. That's great! I was hoping you would, and you wouldn't try to pin it on someone or something else. We are all responsible for what we have said or done in this lifetime. However, if you believe there is no God, you believe that you aren't accountable to Him. Perhaps your morals rest on consequences or on the betterment of society. Those are good and noble causes. However, those are not the only actions which I was speaking. Your actions towards GOD will be taken into account in the judgment. When we sin, it isn't only against another person, but it is against God as well. You can assume responsibility for those sins you commit against others, which I think you all have done. However, you don't assume the responsibility of sins you have committed against God. Every time you sin, you are saying that you know better than an all knowing God...a pretty risky move if you ask me. God will put those out of His sight who sin, because He cannot stand imperfection. A pretty high bill there, perfection. That is what it takes to earn God's respect. That is why none of us are guaranteed a place in God's Kingdom. We are pretty much guaranteed a place in the Lake of Fire. However, if we repent of our sins and believe that Jesus did die in our place, then we can secure that place in heaven.
I think White Hawk came the closest to assuming his actions himself. He left the air open that if there was a God then he would be judged by that God. That is a pretty hard step to take, since it means humbling yourself to another authority. Even if it is hypothetically .
[side theology note]Murderers and rapists are usually forgiven more because they understand their sin better. We all sin and are thus lawbreakers, or criminals. If you break the law, even once, you are a criminal. So in that definition, we are all equal in sin, since we are all law breakers[/side theology note]
(sorry, had to respond to the paradise idea. I am not living for Christ to get some sort of paradise. That's kinda stupid. Why would I work my whole life to live in a place like Cancun when I could just go there right now? No, I'm living for Jesus because my end reward is...Jesus. I get to hang out with the One who created Cancun!)
Oh dear... no, I have not taken any steps, but I am guilty of indulging you somewhat.
This all started with your claim that your god's existence could be proved scientifically. I'd take something positive away from all this if you've at least seen how clearly and utterly absurd that claim was.
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Personally, I feel that any being that could create 'night' and 'day' at least three days before it created the sun and the moon has some pretty neat tricks to explain, but I'd at least have to argue that the 'lesser' light was technically a reflector...
OZONE Asylum
posted 02-07-2008 09:33
I don't write in caps and I wouldn't talk like that. 
So, a story about god claims that he behaved in the way that the story claims he should behave? Earth-shattering...
